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NFT: Knicks Chat: Woj suggests Griffin for Melo

DanMetroMan : 4/27/2017 10:27 am
Essentially his premise is on the Clippers side they would avoid committing 5 years to Griffin vs. "2" to Melo and the Knicks would have a dynamic duo with Griffin/KP
Griffin is always hurt  
Phil in LA : 4/27/2017 10:28 am : link
and making KP a 5 is dumb.
I think it only makes sense if we flip Blake  
Anakim : 4/27/2017 10:28 am : link
.
I'd  
DanMetroMan : 4/27/2017 10:28 am : link
do Melo for Griffin... if it meant sending Griffin somewhere else vs. giving him a max deal.
I'd do it in a heartbeat  
Greg from LI : 4/27/2017 10:30 am : link
Blake is a commodity. There are teams that would give us something better than *retch* Austin Rivers for Blake.
RE: I think it only makes sense if we flip Blake  
DanMetroMan : 4/27/2017 10:31 am : link
In comment 13444531 Anakim said:
Quote:
.


Agreed.
Hahn was told by a "Western Conference GM"  
bceagle05 : 4/27/2017 10:33 am : link
that the Clips wouldn't do that. Maybe a first round loss would change that, but I'm guessing we'd need a third team to get involved. Maybe send Lee and Melo to the Clips, Griffin to Mia/OKC, and we get whatever picks and young players we can, plus Phil's boy Austin Rivers.

Is Melo/Lee an upgrade - or at least a better fit - than Griffin/Reddick? Don't think so, but the Clips need a change and don't have the assets to get a George/Butler type.
RE: I think it only makes sense if we flip Blake  
TheMick7 : 4/27/2017 10:34 am : link
In comment 13444531 Anakim said:
[quote] . [/quote

This....
Griffin to LAL  
giantsfan44ab : 4/27/2017 10:34 am : link
For Randle and D-lo.

Or to Miami for Tyler Johnson and a 1st.

Or to utah for Favors, Burks and exum

Or to OKC for oladipo grant and abrines.

Send KOQ and/or lee along as needed.

Griffin  
DanMetroMan : 4/27/2017 10:35 am : link
to the Suns for their pick and Bledsoe. Done! lol
I'd  
DanMetroMan : 4/27/2017 10:36 am : link
be pretty furious if we traded for Griffin and then gave him a max deal. No thanks.
yeah I think the point is you get Blake and figure out the rest later  
mphbullet36 : 4/27/2017 10:37 am : link
Blake doesn't have a NTC and can be sent to every team if you wanted. So you could trade for him then send him to Denver or OKC or Miami...places that maybe Melo wouldn't consider. Get the asset and figure it out later.
Blake would opt in, then get traded?  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 4/27/2017 10:38 am : link
Why on Earth would he allow that to happen when he could be a FA? Even a max deal isn't worth going in with the Knicks right now.
RE: Griffin  
giantsfan44ab : 4/27/2017 10:51 am : link
In comment 13444554 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
to the Suns for their pick and Bledsoe. Done! lol


This year's pick?! Why would the Suns do that Griffin is even older than Bledsoe and they should trade Bledsoe for young players/picks. Plus Chriss is more or less a 20 year old Griffin.
here's the actual text in the article:  
Enzo : 4/27/2017 10:52 am : link
Quote:
The Clippers will start to ask themselves the hard questions: Does five more years of Griffin at a max salary make sense, or does maybe two years of Carmelo Anthony become an option?

not only is a one-for-one deal extremely unlikely considering Blake has no reason to want to come here...but I don't think that's what Woj is suggesting. What's more likely is that Blake goes elsewhere on his own (he can be a free agent after all) and the Clips then look to bring in Melo for whatever crap they're offering.
RE: Griffin is always hurt  
Enzo : 4/27/2017 10:55 am : link
In comment 13444529 Phil in LA said:
Quote:
and making KP a 5 is dumb.

Having KP chase stretch 4s around the perimeter is dumb. KP is the perfect 5 for today's NBA.
RE: Blake would opt in, then get traded?  
Deej : 4/27/2017 10:55 am : link
In comment 13444567 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
Quote:
Why on Earth would he allow that to happen when he could be a FA? Even a max deal isn't worth going in with the Knicks right now.


The Blake option really complicates this. You'd really have to find a team that wants to pay him but is cap constrained, and has something to offer the Knicks in addition to expiring contracts.

Of course, Phil probably will overlook Blake's injury history. Healthy Blake is a great pair with KP -- Blake can man the middle offensively and is a good passing big. KP can do more of the rim protection.

But yeah, sheesh. It is so risky to max Blake.
Blake is still pretty  
Metnut : 4/27/2017 10:56 am : link
damn good when he stays on the court. If he somehow finds his health and the Knicks land a stud guard in the draft they'd be off and running and in the mix right away. Of course, if they max him out and he's hurt the entire time then they are screwed.
RE: RE: Blake would opt in, then get traded?  
nygiants16 : 4/27/2017 10:58 am : link
In comment 13444638 Deej said:
Quote:
In comment 13444567 shockeyisthebest8056 said:


Quote:


Why on Earth would he allow that to happen when he could be a FA? Even a max deal isn't worth going in with the Knicks right now.



The Blake option really complicates this. You'd really have to find a team that wants to pay him but is cap constrained, and has something to offer the Knicks in addition to expiring contracts.

Of course, Phil probably will overlook Blake's injury history. Healthy Blake is a great pair with KP -- Blake can man the middle offensively and is a good passing big. KP can do more of the rim protection.

But yeah, sheesh. It is so risky to max Blake.


Blake really is a good fit next to kp and is a perfect fit for the offense the knicks will want to run..

he is a very good passer for a 4 man and his rangr has developed to the 3 point line..
RE: Griffin  
giantsfan44ab : 4/27/2017 10:58 am : link
In comment 13444554 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
to the Suns for their pick and Bledsoe. Done! lol


This year's pick?! Why would the Suns do that Griffin is even older than Bledsoe and they should trade Bledsoe for young players/picks. Plus Chriss is more or less a 20 year old Griffin.
RE: RE: Griffin is always hurt  
giantsfan44ab : 4/27/2017 11:00 am : link
In comment 13444636 Enzo said:
Quote:
In comment 13444529 Phil in LA said:


Quote:


and making KP a 5 is dumb.


Having KP chase stretch 4s around the perimeter is dumb. KP is the perfect 5 for today's NBA.


Except he gets absolutely wrecked on the glass at the 5. Worse than Horford. Much worse, he can't even box out.

And more importantly, he can't set screens for absolute shit on offense. Having no one that can set screens on offense is...problematic to say the least.
3 way candidates (where Blake could say yes maybe)  
Deej : 4/27/2017 11:03 am : link
POR: move McCollum or Crabbe
CLE: Love
OKC: Oladipo
MILW: Various
DAL: Barnes
MIA: Winslow/Bosh




[note: these are the main pieces -- there would be other pieces involved]
% wise  
Deej : 4/27/2017 11:05 am : link
KP and Horford were the same last season 5-18-12 o/d/total%. And Blake can rebound.

Ultimately I believe KP will end up as a 5 but he needs to get stronger first.
RE: RE: RE: Griffin is always hurt  
Enzo : 4/27/2017 11:09 am : link
In comment 13444666 giantsfan44ab said:
Quote:
In comment 13444636 Enzo said:


Quote:


In comment 13444529 Phil in LA said:


Quote:


and making KP a 5 is dumb.


Having KP chase stretch 4s around the perimeter is dumb. KP is the perfect 5 for today's NBA.



Except he gets absolutely wrecked on the glass at the 5. Worse than Horford. Much worse, he can't even box out.

And more importantly, he can't set screens for absolute shit on offense. Having no one that can set screens on offense is...problematic to say the least.

he is far from a finished product in some of these areas but you're overstating his issues IMO. Regardless, you live with those deficiencies in the short term with that idea that you can build a top 5 offense around him.
Denver had a top 1 offense around  
giantsfan44ab : 4/27/2017 11:13 am : link
Jokic and look how that went for the nuggets. And Jokic is a BEAST rebounder.

I'd agree with that with a 4 like Griffin or Randle it would mitigate some of the issues with KP at the 5, but then you are killing all the benefits from playing KP at the 5 by playing a non-stretch 4.

KP should play the 5 in stretches. I don't think that should make up most of his time on the court, however.
you have griffin and kp  
nygiants16 : 4/27/2017 11:13 am : link
with a point guard that can break down a defense and you got yourselves the making of a very good team...

question is can griffin stay healthy, he is still relatively young...

Also that point guard better play defensd  
nygiants16 : 4/27/2017 11:13 am : link
..
I'm not even going to entertain the idea  
giantsfan44ab : 4/27/2017 11:20 am : link
of keeping Griffin. That's the equivalent of signing Melo to a 5 year deal a few years back. Maybe you get into the playoffs and win a round. But Griffin is probably going to be even worse than Melo at melo's current age and we'll have the whole dance about what team will trade for him again.

Hard pass.
RE: Denver had a top 1 offense around  
Deej : 4/27/2017 11:20 am : link
In comment 13444716 giantsfan44ab said:
Quote:
Jokic and look how that went for the nuggets. And Jokic is a BEAST rebounder.

I'd agree with that with a 4 like Griffin or Randle it would mitigate some of the issues with KP at the 5, but then you are killing all the benefits from playing KP at the 5 by playing a non-stretch 4.

KP should play the 5 in stretches. I don't think that should make up most of his time on the court, however.


Denver's D was as bad as its offense was good. Still, per the #s their win total underperformed production. Expected wins (BBR) was 42 which would be the 8 seed.

Denver gave a lot of run to 3 bad guards. Murray, Nelson, and Mudiay played 5215 minutes of 12 PER or less ball (.007, .065, and .038 WS48). That's 64 minutes per game over 82 games -- i.e. 32 minutes per game per guard slot.
RE: I'm not even going to entertain the idea  
Deej : 4/27/2017 11:21 am : link
In comment 13444741 giantsfan44ab said:
Quote:
of keeping Griffin. That's the equivalent of signing Melo to a 5 year deal a few years back. Maybe you get into the playoffs and win a round. But Griffin is probably going to be even worse than Melo at melo's current age and we'll have the whole dance about what team will trade for him again.

Hard pass.


You wont be in the NTC scenario. But yeah, Blake is too risky for THIS TEAM to max.
RE: RE: Denver had a top 1 offense around  
giantsfan44ab : 4/27/2017 11:27 am : link
In comment 13444742 Deej said:
Quote:
In comment 13444716 giantsfan44ab said:


Quote:


Jokic and look how that went for the nuggets. And Jokic is a BEAST rebounder.

I'd agree with that with a 4 like Griffin or Randle it would mitigate some of the issues with KP at the 5, but then you are killing all the benefits from playing KP at the 5 by playing a non-stretch 4.

KP should play the 5 in stretches. I don't think that should make up most of his time on the court, however.



Denver's D was as bad as its offense was good. Still, per the #s their win total underperformed production. Expected wins (BBR) was 42 which would be the 8 seed.

Denver gave a lot of run to 3 bad guards. Murray, Nelson, and Mudiay played 5215 minutes of 12 PER or less ball (.007, .065, and .038 WS48). That's 64 minutes per game over 82 games -- i.e. 32 minutes per game per guard slot.


Yeah also Jokic was a bum and was even benched for the first few weeks of the season and they missed the playoffs by like a game or two. So I cherry picked that team, sue me.

You can also reasonably project KP to be a much better defender than Jokic (at least rim protecting wise).

But overall I think center is a 10-15 minute role for KP, not a 25-30 minute gig. Sure you want to double down on spacing. But what about doublling down on length and having a solid traditional center at the 5 (could be Willy, could be someone else).
The more interest around the league,  
Keith : 4/27/2017 11:29 am : link
the better for the Knicks. I wouldn't touch Griffin, but I'm not sure the FO would agree. I would flip him for a bunch of pieces.

I still think Cleveland is going to be where he ends up.
Clippers would be fools  
KWALL2 : 4/27/2017 11:30 am : link
to make this move. I'd say the chances of this happening are O.
KP is a much better defender than Jokic right now  
Deej : 4/27/2017 11:30 am : link
And manning the C would probably make him better by getting him off the perimeter. It's not like there are a ton of low post bullies around anymore.
RE: Clippers would be fools  
Deej : 4/27/2017 11:31 am : link
In comment 13444774 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
to make this move. I'd say the chances of this happening are O.


Would they be fools to max Blake?
One more  
giantsfan44ab : 4/27/2017 11:33 am : link
Griffin to Toronto for Joseph, JV, Carroll, Powell and a 1st.

I'd strongly consider betting on a core of Lowry, derozan, Griffin and Ibaka to take down the Cavs.
RE: Clippers would be fools  
nygiants16 : 4/27/2017 11:35 am : link
In comment 13444774 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
to make this move. I'd say the chances of this happening are O.


clippers are going nowhere and with paul and griffin a free agent and no room to improve they have to do something...

also redick is a free agent..

i love how paul gets no criticism for his playoff failures
I would give Blake the max  
KWALL2 : 4/27/2017 11:38 am : link
if the damn toe is OK.

When he's healthy he's a max player. He can still dominate when he gets the ball and he's an excellent passer. He has expanded his offensive game. He doesn't dominate the ball and a very good guy to pair with another top player.
This isn't hard  
rich in DC : 4/27/2017 11:38 am : link
Melo to the Clips

Griffin to the Celts

picks to the Knicks

Remember that the Celts can renounce rights to FA Amir Johnson ($12M), Jerebko ($5M) and Olynyk ($3M) and fit Griffin's $20M cap hit without having to give up anything. Those 3 would be superfluous for Boston with Griffin on the roster.

I suppose that if Boston wanted to save cap space, they would renounce Johnson and Jerebko, and send Zeller to NY for Griffin and POQ. In that way, they could re-sign Olynyk if they wanted to- which might be wise for depth.

I think the smart move for the Knicks would NOT be to ask for the 2017 Brooklyn pick, but rather the 2018 pick- as well as Memphis's 2018 1st rounder, and a couple 2nd rounders.
RE: RE: Clippers would be fools  
giantsfan44ab : 4/27/2017 11:39 am : link
In comment 13444792 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
In comment 13444774 KWALL2 said:


Quote:


to make this move. I'd say the chances of this happening are O.



clippers are going nowhere and with paul and griffin a free agent and no room to improve they have to do something...

also redick is a free agent..

i love how paul gets no criticism for his playoff failures


No criticism? That's literally all I hear about paul nowadays.
rich  
Deej : 4/27/2017 11:40 am : link
the problem with that trade is that the Celts can just sign Blake outright if he opts out.
RE: I would give Blake the max  
nygiants16 : 4/27/2017 11:40 am : link
In comment 13444796 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
if the damn toe is OK.

When he's healthy he's a max player. He can still dominate when he gets the ball and he's an excellent passer. He has expanded his offensive game. He doesn't dominate the ball and a very good guy to pair with another top player.


so if you are the clippers you would max out paul and griffin and basically go the next 5 years eith the exact same team?
nygiants  
KWALL2 : 4/27/2017 11:41 am : link
Paul gets heat for the playoff problems. In the collapse vs HOU, Griffin dominated but Paul wouldn't give up the ball in the 4th of the last 2 games. Both losses. He tried to take over. it didn't work.

Griffin can be a primary ball handler. He can be a point forward and thrive. When Paul is out and they need him to do it hes an elite player.

It's all about health. If Griffin is healthy he's a great guy to have on any team right now.
RE: nygiants  
nygiants16 : 4/27/2017 11:43 am : link
In comment 13444810 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
Paul gets heat for the playoff problems. In the collapse vs HOU, Griffin dominated but Paul wouldn't give up the ball in the 4th of the last 2 games. Both losses. He tried to take over. it didn't work.

Griffin can be a primary ball handler. He can be a point forward and thrive. When Paul is out and they need him to do it hes an elite player.

It's all about health. If Griffin is healthy he's a great guy to have on any team right now.


again its not about the single player, if you are the clippers why are you committing max dollars to keep the exact same team that has not won shit? it makes zero sense for the clippers to do that..

they dont even have 1st round picks to add to the team..

We're not getting Blake or any Brooklyn picks for Melo.  
bceagle05 : 4/27/2017 11:44 am : link
The Celtics would just do business directly with LAC, who I'm sure would rather have Josh Jackson or next year's Brooklyn pick than an aging Melo. Best we could do is pry Miami's lottery pick away in a Melo-to-LAC/Blake-to-MIA three-team swap. Or whatever OKC can spare us if Blake wants to go there.
the clippers if you look at it  
nygiants16 : 4/27/2017 11:44 am : link
have the nba's worst future..
RE: RE: Griffin  
DanMetroMan : 4/27/2017 11:45 am : link
In comment 13444654 giantsfan44ab said:
Quote:
In comment 13444554 DanMetroMan said:


Quote:


to the Suns for their pick and Bledsoe. Done! lol



This year's pick?! Why would the Suns do that Griffin is even older than Bledsoe and they should trade Bledsoe for young players/picks. Plus Chriss is more or less a 20 year old Griffin.


Thus the "lol". My expectation remains Melo to LAC in a deal centered around Rivers and future (2021/2023) picks.
Clippers 2nd unit  
KWALL2 : 4/27/2017 11:46 am : link
could use help. If they picked up Joe Johnson it would have been the difference.

Whey not keep Paul, Griffin, and Jordan together? Then try and find better complimentary players. Get the right help and you can win a title with those 3.

That plan seems like a better shot at winning then breaking them up especially if it means bringing in a player like Melo. That to me isn't an option for them. It would be a terrible move. Melo is at the end of the line. It would be a step back.
I wouldn't do it if I were the clippers either.  
Keith : 4/27/2017 11:48 am : link
This makes them worse, no question. I would guess that there would be a 3 way with Melo going to LAC, Griffin somewhere else and then pieces being split up going back to LAC and NY. So hypothetically:

Melo to LAC
Griffin to BOS
1st rounder to NYK from Boston
1st rounder to LAC from Boston
RE: Clippers 2nd unit  
DanMetroMan : 4/27/2017 11:49 am : link
In comment 13444827 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
could use help. If they picked up Joe Johnson it would have been the difference.

Whey not keep Paul, Griffin, and Jordan together? Then try and find better complimentary players. Get the right help and you can win a title with those 3.

That plan seems like a better shot at winning then breaking them up especially if it means bringing in a player like Melo. That to me isn't an option for them. It would be a terrible move. Melo is at the end of the line. It would be a step back.


The Clippers already were in talks for Melo so clearly they have interest. It won't be for Griffin, that's fantasy talk but I suspect if you polled all GM's the Clippers would be the heavy favorites for him.
RE: rich  
rich in DC : 4/27/2017 11:49 am : link
In comment 13444807 Deej said:
Quote:
the problem with that trade is that the Celts can just sign Blake outright if he opts out.


True, but it might be in Griffin's interests to allow himself to be dealt to the Knicks, then opt-out and do a sign and trade deal to the team of his choice. Keep in mind that the Clips 1) might not be keen on sending him to a competitive team and 2) might not be willing to do a sign-and-trade deal.

By doing the sign and trade route, Griffin gets extra cash and possibly an extra year.
You keep them together because  
KWALL2 : 4/27/2017 11:49 am : link
simply breaking them up makes no sense. It may work if you get value back. Melo is not value.

Injuries in playoffs have been a factor. Griffin's toe this year? Is it a freak thing or is the guy prone to injuries like that? I'd go with freak injury. Keep them together and build from there.
RE: Clippers 2nd unit  
nygiants16 : 4/27/2017 11:50 am : link
In comment 13444827 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
could use help. If they picked up Joe Johnson it would have been the difference.

Whey not keep Paul, Griffin, and Jordan together? Then try and find better complimentary players. Get the right help and you can win a title with those 3.

That plan seems like a better shot at winning then breaking them up especially if it means bringing in a player like Melo. That to me isn't an option for them. It would be a terrible move. Melo is at the end of the line. It would be a step back.


They have ZERO cap space and no draft picks, they can not improve that team...
If I was going to drop one of the 3.  
KWALL2 : 4/27/2017 11:50 am : link
it would be Paul. I'd keep Griffin over Paul right now.
James Herberg  
DanMetroMan : 4/27/2017 11:52 am : link
put together a list of "intriguing" FA options, some that stand out

Joe Ingles (though he's already 29)

Potential Tyler Johnsons
Tyler Johnson got a $50 million offer sheet last summer, stunning casual fans who weren't familiar with the up-and-coming combo guard's work as a Heat reserve.
Justin Holiday, Knicks: He averaged only 20 minutes for a 31-win team, so a bidding war for his services would probably shock people. Plenty of teams could use his perimeter defense, though, and his 35.5 percent 3-point shooting is just good enough that one of them could make a bet on coaching him up to 40 percent.

JaMychal Green, Grizzlies (restricted): Did you know he shot 50.1 percent and 38.2 percent from deep this season? Green's range was crucial in giving Mike Conley space to make plays, and his versatile defense kept Memphis connected. He's far from a household name, but he's the kind of role player that helps in a number of ways and takes very little off the table.

Tony Snell, Bucks: I thought about putting him in the "playoff heroes" category because of how well he has played against the Raptors -- in the first five games of the series, he has defended DeMar DeRozan admirably while averaging 11.6 points on 52.5 percent shooting, including 53.3 percent from deep. In a much bigger role than he ever had with the Bulls, Snell had a true shooting percentage of 60.3 percent with the Bucks in the regular season. Again, everybody wants 3-and-D guys like him.


and then there is this...

Derrick Rose, Knicks: It seems nuts that New York would even consider bringing Rose back, but president Phil Jackson did not exactly close the door on that possibility when meeting with the media at the end of the season. Rose proved with the Knicks that he has some explosion left and can get into the paint better than most players at his position, but his game has serious limitations, especially on the defensive end. Nobody knows what his market will look like.
Tyler Johnson  
giantsfan44ab : 4/27/2017 11:58 am : link
Isn't a FA is he?? I though he signed a 4 year deal no?
RE: Tyler Johnson  
DanMetroMan : 4/27/2017 11:59 am : link
In comment 13444851 giantsfan44ab said:
Quote:
Isn't a FA is he?? I though he signed a 4 year deal no?


He's talking about guys who will get "Tyler Johnson" deals.
Ingles is a guy who makes winning plays  
giantsfan44ab : 4/27/2017 12:00 pm : link
age is a bit disappointing for the Knicks timeline.

Snell is intriguing. Thought he would be better in the nba but looks like a prototypical 3 and D wing.
RE: RE: rich  
Enzo : 4/27/2017 12:05 pm : link
In comment 13444831 rich in DC said:
Quote:
In comment 13444807 Deej said:


Quote:


the problem with that trade is that the Celts can just sign Blake outright if he opts out.



True, but it might be in Griffin's interests to allow himself to be dealt to the Knicks, then opt-out and do a sign and trade deal to the team of his choice. Keep in mind that the Clips 1) might not be keen on sending him to a competitive team and 2) might not be willing to do a sign-and-trade deal.

By doing the sign and trade route, Griffin gets extra cash and possibly an extra year.

you don't get extra money or extra years via sign-and-trade anymore.
things could get really  
Enzo : 4/27/2017 12:09 pm : link
interesting for the Clips if Paul and Blake just decide to leave and sign elsewhere. If that happens, does Doc just decide to go somewhere else too? Do they trade DJ and go for a full rebuild?
RE: things could get really  
nygiants16 : 4/27/2017 12:35 pm : link
In comment 13444879 Enzo said:
Quote:
interesting for the Clips if Paul and Blake just decide to leave and sign elsewhere. If that happens, does Doc just decide to go somewhere else too? Do they trade DJ and go for a full rebuild?


if that happens they are screwed, no draft picks
RE: RE: things could get really  
Enzo : 4/27/2017 12:42 pm : link
In comment 13444915 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
In comment 13444879 Enzo said:


Quote:


interesting for the Clips if Paul and Blake just decide to leave and sign elsewhere. If that happens, does Doc just decide to go somewhere else too? Do they trade DJ and go for a full rebuild?



if that happens they are screwed, no draft picks

slightly more complicated than that. They don't have a pick in June, but it will be in the 20s. And then the next one they owe is heavily protected and eventually converts to a #2 if not conveyed. Bottom line, they can tank if they want to.
they dont have a pick in 2017 or 2019  
nygiants16 : 4/27/2017 12:46 pm : link
and they have zero 2md round picks...

how can they tank?
RE: they dont have a pick in 2017 or 2019  
Enzo : 4/27/2017 12:49 pm : link
In comment 13444926 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
and they have zero 2md round picks...

how can they tank?

maybe read what I wrote again? Tanking will obviously not impact the 2017 pick because it's already in the 20s. And if the 2019 picks is in lottery, they keep it. If it's in the lottery in 2020, they keep it.
Boston  
MotownGIANTS : 4/27/2017 12:52 pm : link
Is not going to commit max money for an oft injured player and Melo is not a fit he is not the playmaker he once was can score but is a volume shoooter. Plus he is not going defend like we want. We need a rebounder and post presence. 6ers have to move a big that's where our deal is coming from and trying to get heyward. Also Brown will be even better next season .... his chance in the playoffs has not come yet. The pick this year will be fultz or josh Jackson unless someone comes with a mega offer. If Bradley and smart could just be more consistent with their shot. The pick would be josh Jackson no doubt.
RE: RE: they dont have a pick in 2017 or 2019  
nygiants16 : 4/27/2017 1:00 pm : link
In comment 13444931 Enzo said:
Quote:
In comment 13444926 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


and they have zero 2md round picks...

how can they tank?


maybe read what I wrote again? Tanking will obviously not impact the 2017 pick because it's already in the 20s. And if the 2019 picks is in lottery, they keep it. If it's in the lottery in 2020, they keep it.


yeah i re read it, my mistake..
RE: Boston  
giantsfan44ab : 4/27/2017 1:08 pm : link
In comment 13444937 MotownGIANTS said:
Quote:
Is not going to commit max money for an oft injured player and Melo is not a fit he is not the playmaker he once was can score but is a volume shoooter. Plus he is not going defend like we want. We need a rebounder and post presence. 6ers have to move a big that's where our deal is coming from and trying to get heyward. Also Brown will be even better next season .... his chance in the playoffs has not come yet. The pick this year will be fultz or josh Jackson unless someone comes with a mega offer. If Bradley and smart could just be more consistent with their shot. The pick would be josh Jackson no doubt.


I can guarantee Boston will not have a chance at Hayward. He's staying in Utah, you can book that.
Ainge is not going to wait for a draft pick to develop  
nygiants16 : 4/27/2017 1:11 pm : link
they are an older win now team, guarantee he trades for a superstar...

Yeah I agree about Hayward.  
bceagle05 : 4/27/2017 1:16 pm : link
I was worried about the Stevens/Hayward/Butler thing, but Utah has a good thing going and he's gonna get a huge deal from them.
RE: Yeah I agree about Hayward.  
nygiants16 : 4/27/2017 1:18 pm : link
In comment 13444969 bceagle05 said:
Quote:
I was worried about the Stevens/Hayward/Butler thing, but Utah has a good thing going and he's gonna get a huge deal from them.


utah has a good young core he can grow with, he is not leaving that..
I'm not "plugged" in like  
giantsfan44ab : 4/27/2017 1:22 pm : link
some here in BBI are, but the Hayward situation is one thing (and maybe the only thing ever) I can speak to.
Utah  
DanMetroMan : 4/27/2017 1:30 pm : link
is in awesome shape. Nice young roster, 2 young studs in Hayward and Gobert, Exum/Lyles haven't been very good but they are still only 21 with talent, Favors,Hood, presumably they will keep Hill and Ingles and then they have 2 firsts this year (granted 1 is the warriors, 2 2nds this year, + 2 firsts next year (theirs and OKC)
Rose barely talks lol  
DanMetroMan : 4/27/2017 1:41 pm : link
“[Carmelo Anthony] off the court is calm. There are rare moments when he heats up about something, [Derrick] Rose is quiet, he barely talks. So Noah was the guy who tried to talk, tried to help and spoke to coaches, too. But even he could not influence the wrong decisions we made. It was difficult. But Joakim is the guy – he maybe did not play at the level we all wanted, but he could say loud things others did not want to say.’’
RE: Rose barely talks lol  
Deej : 4/27/2017 1:43 pm : link
In comment 13445025 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
“[Carmelo Anthony] off the court is calm. There are rare moments when he heats up about something, [Derrick] Rose is quiet, he barely talks. So Noah was the guy who tried to talk, tried to help and spoke to coaches, too. But even he could not influence the wrong decisions we made. It was difficult. But Joakim is the guy – he maybe did not play at the level we all wanted, but he could say loud things others did not want to say.’’


Rose looks like a space cadet to me. A guy who is living in his own world, which is moving at a different speed.
RE: Ainge is not going to wait for a draft pick to develop  
MotownGIANTS : 4/27/2017 1:44 pm : link
In comment 13444964 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
they are an older win now team, guarantee he trades for a superstar...


How are we an older team? In a must win now mode we are actually over achieving and ahead of schedule for the rebuild. There is no need to mortgage the future .... we actually have to stashed lottery picks coming over next season a C and PF. That's why Flutz or Jackson is the pick. A 6ers big will be in green next season as well. Now someone maybe able to get our 1st next or the Brooklyn pick next year but the offer will have to good. Now that is a trade that might happen but it will be a team in the blowup rebuild mode .... Pacers maybe for P George
I thought the new CBA  
Deej : 4/27/2017 1:46 pm : link
means max guys would be leaving a boatload on the table if they leave for their 3rd contract. Or is that just for guys who hit the MVP/First Team levels.
RE: RE: Rose barely talks lol  
DanMetroMan : 4/27/2017 1:49 pm : link
In comment 13445028 Deej said:
Quote:
In comment 13445025 DanMetroMan said:


Quote:


“[Carmelo Anthony] off the court is calm. There are rare moments when he heats up about something, [Derrick] Rose is quiet, he barely talks. So Noah was the guy who tried to talk, tried to help and spoke to coaches, too. But even he could not influence the wrong decisions we made. It was difficult. But Joakim is the guy – he maybe did not play at the level we all wanted, but he could say loud things others did not want to say.’’



Rose looks like a space cadet to me. A guy who is living in his own world, which is moving at a different speed.


Which is part of the reason I'm trying to understand the argument for bringing him back. He had no real chemistry with KP/Willy, it's evident he's not a "leader" vocally or by his actions. He undermines the coaches vs. being a veteran asset. He reportedly was unhappy being benched for Baker (we are hopeful a rookie more deserving of major PT than Baker is brought on via the draft) He can still score, wonderful for him but does next to nothing for the Knicks. Sign a guy like Sergio Rodriguez to a 1 year deal at inflated AAV.
RE: RE: Ainge is not going to wait for a draft pick to develop  
giantsfan44ab : 4/27/2017 1:49 pm : link
In comment 13445034 MotownGIANTS said:
Quote:
In comment 13444964 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


they are an older win now team, guarantee he trades for a superstar...




How are we an older team? In a must win now mode we are actually over achieving and ahead of schedule for the rebuild. There is no need to mortgage the future .... we actually have to stashed lottery picks coming over next season a C and PF. That's why Flutz or Jackson is the pick. A 6ers big will be in green next season as well. Now someone maybe able to get our 1st next or the Brooklyn pick next year but the offer will have to good. Now that is a trade that might happen but it will be a team in the blowup rebuild mode .... Pacers maybe for P George


What about Joel Embiid? I think the sixers could be willing to part at the right price, he's due for a big contract next season. May be able to get him without a BKN pick.
RE: RE: Ainge is not going to wait for a draft pick to develop  
nygiants16 : 4/27/2017 1:55 pm : link
In comment 13445034 MotownGIANTS said:
Quote:
In comment 13444964 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


they are an older win now team, guarantee he trades for a superstar...




How are we an older team? In a must win now mode we are actually over achieving and ahead of schedule for the rebuild. There is no need to mortgage the future .... we actually have to stashed lottery picks coming over next season a C and PF. That's why Flutz or Jackson is the pick. A 6ers big will be in green next season as well. Now someone maybe able to get our 1st next or the Brooklyn pick next year but the offer will have to good. Now that is a trade that might happen but it will be a team in the blowup rebuild mode .... Pacers maybe for P George


umm because your 2 best players are pver 30, one you are about to give big money to..

you are going to build around them, he is not going to build around the draft picks...

You arent getting Embiid for less than a BK pick  
Deej : 4/27/2017 1:55 pm : link
I dont know if Philly would consider trading him. But if they did, it would be for another super-duper star possible return. Embiid obviously got hurt. But when he played he was flashing Shaq/Robinson/Hakeem level impact potential.
Boston isn't in "win now" mode  
giantsfan44ab : 4/27/2017 1:59 pm : link
They're essentially a rebuilding team that gets playoff ticket sales and sold out arenas in the regular season. Best of both worlds.
RE: Boston isn't in  
nygiants16 : 4/27/2017 2:01 pm : link
In comment 13445062 giantsfan44ab said:
Quote:
They're essentially a rebuilding team that gets playoff ticket sales and sold out arenas in the regular season. Best of both worlds.


then they shouldnt give a 5 year max deal to thomas...

RE: RE: Boston isn't in  
giantsfan44ab : 4/27/2017 2:11 pm : link
In comment 13445067 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
In comment 13445062 giantsfan44ab said:


Quote:


They're essentially a rebuilding team that gets playoff ticket sales and sold out arenas in the regular season. Best of both worlds.



then they shouldnt give a 5 year max deal to thomas...


They haven't...
Melo  
DanMetroMan : 4/27/2017 2:13 pm : link
and Kobe no longer speak? Weird.
RE: Melo  
nygiants16 : 4/27/2017 2:19 pm : link
In comment 13445090 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
and Kobe no longer speak? Weird.


apparently kobe was telling melo basically to suck it up with phil and that you have to go through the bad first and melo basically didnt want to hear it
Couldn't  
DanMetroMan : 4/27/2017 2:21 pm : link
have been too much of a friendship if that's what "ended" it considering everyone always said how close they were.
RE: Couldn't  
nygiants16 : 4/27/2017 2:24 pm : link
In comment 13445108 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
have been too much of a friendship if that's what "ended" it considering everyone always said how close they were.


i dunno i heard it on alan hahn
Phil will have plenty of suitors for Melo  
Earl the goat : 4/27/2017 6:23 pm : link
Celtics aren't as good as Ainge thought they were
Bulls with Rondo would've beaten them
Melo would've made a huge difference on this team

Thunder could've absolutely used Melo. Westbrook had no other scorer

If Cavs don't win Lebron will be hollering for Melo

Clips are a mess Don't know what to expect from them
CP3 is such an overrated so called superstar and can never get this team to advance

Jeannie Buss and Magic will be inquiring too



RE: Phil will have plenty of suitors for Melo  
Ten Ton Hammer : 4/27/2017 7:08 pm : link
In comment 13445535 Earl the goat said:
Quote:
Celtics aren't as good as Ainge thought they were
Bulls with Rondo would've beaten them
Melo would've made a huge difference on this team

Thunder could've absolutely used Melo. Westbrook had no other scorer

If Cavs don't win Lebron will be hollering for Melo

Clips are a mess Don't know what to expect from them
CP3 is such an overrated so called superstar and can never get this team to advance

Jeannie Buss and Magic will be inquiring too




Who's knocking down the door for an old, expensive, declining scorer to come to their team and be quicksand for your offense?

Danny Ainge doesn't make trades unless they're brutally lopsided in his favor.

RE: RE: Phil will have plenty of suitors for Melo  
Earl the goat : 4/27/2017 7:10 pm : link
In comment 13445643 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 13445535 Earl the goat said:


Quote:


Celtics aren't as good as Ainge thought they were
Bulls with Rondo would've beaten them
Melo would've made a huge difference on this team

TTH. We will see and reconvene at draft

Thunder could've absolutely used Melo. Westbrook had no other scorer

If Cavs don't win Lebron will be hollering for Melo

Clips are a mess Don't know what to expect from them
CP3 is such an overrated so called superstar and can never get this team to advance

Jeannie Buss and Magic will be inquiring too






Who's knocking down the door for an old, expensive, declining scorer to come to their team and be quicksand for your offense?

Danny Ainge doesn't make trades unless they're brutally lopsided in his favor.
RE: RE: RE: Ainge is not going to wait for a draft pick to develop  
MotownGIANTS : 4/28/2017 4:28 pm : link
In comment 13445052 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
In comment 13445034 MotownGIANTS said:


Quote:


In comment 13444964 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


they are an older win now team, guarantee he trades for a superstar...




How are we an older team? In a must win now mode we are actually over achieving and ahead of schedule for the rebuild. There is no need to mortgage the future .... we actually have to stashed lottery picks coming over next season a C and PF. That's why Flutz or Jackson is the pick. A 6ers big will be in green next season as well. Now someone maybe able to get our 1st next or the Brooklyn pick next year but the offer will have to good. Now that is a trade that might happen but it will be a team in the blowup rebuild mode .... Pacers maybe for P George



umm because your 2 best players are pver 30, one you are about to give big money to..

you are going to build around them, he is not going to build around the draft picks...


This is B-Ball not football 30 is not the same. However you mention 2 out off 15 .... that is not even 25% of the team and Rozier, Smart, Brown, Zizic & Yabo plus the THREE LOTTERY PICKS in the next 2 yrs we are far from old and in win now mode ...

Dont hate cause your FO sucks as does your team. Your best player is never going to get it done ... now you have trade him on a buyer's market and guess what he aint leaving LaLa (she aint leaving NY) soooo he aint going nowhere (no trade clause) ... dude about to try and save his marriage

The Knicks are in perpetual rebuild mode while trying to reclaim past glory ... No one cares about playing in the Garden ... Maybe the bigger market is appealing but going to a perennial loser is not.
my bad  
MotownGIANTS : 4/28/2017 4:31 pm : link
1 Lottery THIS year and 1 NEXT yr plus we still have that 1st rd pick as well...
Here  
DanMetroMan : 4/28/2017 4:32 pm : link
is something a shitty franchise can emulate even when lacking the talent

"Prior to joining the Heat, Waiters thought he was already in excellent shape after playing four years in the NBA. James Johnson, who had been in the NBA for seven seasons and can literally kick the rim on a regulation hoop, thought the same thing prior to signing with Miami last offseason.

Most players have this reaction. Then, they show up for the team’s workouts.

“After one week, my body [was] shot,” Waiters recalled. “I was damn near throwing up in trash cans like in the movies.”

The Heat’s offseason workouts, training camps and practices are the stuff of legend. Players work extremely hard, spending a ton of time on conditioning and weight training. And it never really lets up. This year’s team was still doing full-contact practices in the final week of this season – even when a playoff berth was a realistic possibility.

“They had us come in early during the offseason to prepare for training camp,” said one current Heat player, who spoke on the condition of anonymity. “We did sprints and other conditioning drills, and we even went outside to push some sleds and flip tires and stuff like that. This was all to get ready for training camp.

“When camp started, it was definitely different. With other teams, they may have veterans who can’t run as much so the training camp is kind of built to accommodate those guys. In Miami, we were all trying to make a name for ourselves so it was competitive and we were all ready to work hard. We had sayings like, ‘No fake gym rats,’ ‘No excuses,’ and, ‘Always get one percent better.’ If you came to the gym, it wasn’t to make an appearance so the coaches can see you. You’re coming to get better. We don’t want any fake gym rats.”

While intense, the work paid off. Sources say that Waiters trimmed his body fat percentage by nearly five percent from the start of the season to now. He was so proud of the transformation that he posted a copy of his before-and-after picture on Snapchat after the season ended."
Link - ( New Window )
Celtics fan from Motown, huh?  
Greg from LI : 4/28/2017 4:41 pm : link
Totally checks out.
Ainge doesnt build through the draft  
nygiants16 : 4/28/2017 4:46 pm : link
the celtics are nothing but overachieving role players with 1 superstar who is playing out of his mind...

Celtics will never win a championship with the core they have, and ainge is a horrible drafter..

guarantee he trades for superstar..

cletics are damn lucky billy king is a moron
RE: Ainge doesnt build through the draft  
MotownGIANTS : 4/28/2017 4:55 pm : link
In comment 13449325 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
the celtics are nothing but overachieving role players with 1 superstar who is playing out of his mind...

Celtics will never win a championship with the core they have, and ainge is a horrible drafter..

guarantee he trades for superstar..

cletics are damn lucky billy king is a moron


Hmmm Smart, Brown, Rozier, Bradley, *Rondo all picks on his watch ... but ok not to mention Zizic and Yabo (coming over next season)
You cant talk shit to a Knicks fan  
Deej : 4/28/2017 4:56 pm : link
we have no pride and no respect for how our team is run. You cant hurt our feelings.
RE: RE: Ainge doesnt build through the draft  
nygiants16 : 4/28/2017 5:05 pm : link
In comment 13449342 MotownGIANTS said:
Quote:
In comment 13449325 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


the celtics are nothing but overachieving role players with 1 superstar who is playing out of his mind...

Celtics will never win a championship with the core they have, and ainge is a horrible drafter..

guarantee he trades for superstar..

cletics are damn lucky billy king is a moron



Hmmm Smart, Brown, Rozier, Bradley, *Rondo all picks on his watch ... but ok not to mention Zizic and Yabo (coming over next season)


and all role players...

hos championship was built on trades..

this team is good because of a trade and free afency..

his teams are not built through the draft..

you just named 7 pivks out of how many first rounders he has had?



RE: You cant talk shit to a Knicks fan  
MotownGIANTS : 4/28/2017 5:05 pm : link
In comment 13449343 Deej said:
Quote:
we have no pride and no respect for how our team is run. You cant hurt our feelings.



LOL
oh and you named 3 players who have a lot to prove  
nygiants16 : 4/28/2017 5:09 pm : link
before they are called good picks
RE: RE: Ainge doesnt build through the draft  
Deej : 4/28/2017 5:14 pm : link
In comment 13449342 MotownGIANTS said:
Quote:
In comment 13449325 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


the celtics are nothing but overachieving role players with 1 superstar who is playing out of his mind...

Celtics will never win a championship with the core they have, and ainge is a horrible drafter..

guarantee he trades for superstar..

cletics are damn lucky billy king is a moron



Hmmm Smart, Brown, Rozier, Bradley, *Rondo all picks on his watch ... but ok not to mention Zizic and Yabo (coming over next season)


Yeah that's Rondo and a bunch of role players. And Rozier, who has been worse than Jerian grant. You missed a lot of better players taken during the Ainge era (though no one great), like Al Jeff and Tony Allen. But all in all, a lot of role players and duds.

I wont roast Ainge for his drafts, but he doesnt deserve praise. It's tough to draft outside of the elite picks. Ainge goes for singles a lot, and gets some. But role players.
RE: RE: RE: Ainge doesnt build through the draft  
MotownGIANTS : 4/28/2017 5:19 pm : link
In comment 13449364 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
In comment 13449342 MotownGIANTS said:


Quote:


In comment 13449325 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


the celtics are nothing but overachieving role players with 1 superstar who is playing out of his mind...

Celtics will never win a championship with the core they have, and ainge is a horrible drafter..

guarantee he trades for superstar..

cletics are damn lucky billy king is a moron



Hmmm Smart, Brown, Rozier, Bradley, *Rondo all picks on his watch ... but ok not to mention Zizic and Yabo (coming over next season)



and all role players...

hos championship was built on trades..

this team is good because of a trade and free afency..

his teams are not built through the draft..

you just named 7 pivks out of how many first rounders he has had?





2016 1 3 Jaylen Brown University of California, Berkeley
2016 1 16 Guerschon Yabusele Rouen Métropole Basket (France)
2016 1 23 Ante Žižić Cibona Zagreb (Croatia)
2015 1 16 Terry Rozier University of Louisville
2015 1 28 R. J. Hunter Georgia State University
2014 1 6 Marcus Smart Oklahoma State
2014 1 17 James Young University of Kentucky
2013 1 16 Lucas Nogueira CB Estudiantes (Spain)
2012 1 21 Jared Sullinger Ohio State University
2012 1 22 Fab Melo Syracuse University
2011 1 25 MarShon Brooks Providence College
2010 1 19 Avery Bradley University of Texas at Austin
2008 1 30 J. R. Giddens University of New Mexico
2007 1 5 Jeff Green Georgetown University
2006 1 7 Randy Foye Villanova University
2005 1 18 Gerald Green Gulf Shores Academy
2004 1 15 Al Jefferson Prentiss
2004 1 24 Delonte West Saint Joseph's University
2004 1 25 Tony Allen Oklahoma State University
2003 1 16 Troy Bell Boston College

*Nogueira becomes Kelly Olynk
*Foye becomes Telfair and Theo Ratcliff


Tony Allen, Al Jefferson, **Gerald Green

So again to say he has drafted poorly is not correct because you name 1 GM in the NBA that hit on all picks. He has only had 5 lottery picks if you count the UPCOMING draft ... so show me where he drafts bad
that is a list of role players  
nygiants16 : 4/28/2017 5:24 pm : link
jaylen brown and the two euros are to be determined...

but which pick did he hit out of the park? absolutely zero, but he is not a good drafter, he builds through trades..

he drafts a bunch of role players..

avery bradley is probably his best pick
and i am not saying hit on all picks  
nygiants16 : 4/28/2017 5:25 pm : link
but when you have had that many first round pivks you expect at least 1 superstar...

especially with thr lotto picks he had
he had 5 counting this  
MotownGIANTS : 4/28/2017 5:32 pm : link
yr ...

That is not a lot of picks ... to say he found role players in the area of the draft where you find role players means he has done his good in drafting.


Brown is his keeper lottery pick and this yr ... Fultz or Jackson ... (I know the #1 overall should be a superstar ... what about the kid Cleveland pick ... bust the draft is a gamble) so for a dude that only has actually kept 1 lottery pick Brown.... who is playing pretty good for rookie he gets a passing grade. If you want to penalize him for trading picks so be it ... but when you have a Paul Pierce on the last leg of his prime play and you got a chance to get 2 max players you go for it...small window chase for a ring ... we are not in that position as IT ages as Horford ages we'll have guys in place to take the reigns ... no need to panic just because your FO is in panic mode and is eyeing out plate does not mean we have to follow.
You know that there is going to be a lottery, right?  
Deej : 4/28/2017 5:36 pm : link
75% chance you dont get the #1 pick.
i never knovked ainge  
nygiants16 : 4/28/2017 5:36 pm : link
all i said was he iz better at making trades than he is drafting..

that is why i said he is going to trade for a superstar
RE: You know that there is going to be a lottery, right?  
MotownGIANTS : 4/28/2017 5:37 pm : link
In comment 13449425 Deej said:
Quote:
75% chance you dont get the #1 pick.


yea that why I said Fultz or Jackson ...
RE: i never knovked ainge  
MotownGIANTS : 4/28/2017 5:40 pm : link
In comment 13449426 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
all i said was he iz better at making trades than he is drafting..

that is why i said he is going to trade for a superstar


no harm no foul ... I just think he gets a knock for drafting unfairly ... he has said he will not getting another trade that got the RA and KG and then flip them and the Coach the way he did ... he knows now it is convert to the SA format best you can .... He accessing the situation and adapts ... hence no trades even though he is a trader and gambler by nature
accesses  
MotownGIANTS : 4/28/2017 5:40 pm : link
the situation ...
off topic but Marc Stein  
Enzo : 4/28/2017 7:32 pm : link
was among the layoffs at espn. IIRC, he had a pretty good track record when it came to breaking Knicks related news.
Jazz  
Jon in NYC : 4/30/2017 6:07 pm : link
about to beat Clippers in 7.

Good news for the Knicks.
Yep, that can only help the Knicks.  
bceagle05 : 4/30/2017 6:20 pm : link
Pretty clear they need to try a different combination.
I don't see how Doc will be able to use the injury excuse this year.  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 4/30/2017 6:21 pm : link
The crazy thing is they had homecourt and looked awful in most of the 4 games.
Austin Rivers  
bceagle05 : 4/30/2017 6:38 pm : link
isn't very good at basketball.
RE: Austin Rivers  
Jon in NYC : 4/30/2017 6:50 pm : link
In comment 13455332 bceagle05 said:
Quote:
isn't very good at basketball.


we're going to have to learn to love him
RE: Jazz  
PhiPsi125 : 4/30/2017 6:56 pm : link
In comment 13455303 Jon in NYC said:
Quote:
about to beat Clippers in 7.

Good news for the Knicks.


It's really not good news if the big piece we'd get for Melo is Austin Rivers. Why even bother then?
Knicks would've dumped Melo for Rivers (and other garbage)  
bceagle05 : 4/30/2017 7:17 pm : link
at the deadline if that's all it would've taken. LAC certainly wouldn't have turned it down. We'll figure out a way to get a couple of picks at least.
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