Essentially his premise is on the Clippers side they would avoid committing 5 years to Griffin vs. "2" to Melo and the Knicks would have a dynamic duo with Griffin/KP
that the Clips wouldn't do that. Maybe a first round loss would change that, but I'm guessing we'd need a third team to get involved. Maybe send Lee and Melo to the Clips, Griffin to Mia/OKC, and we get whatever picks and young players we can, plus Phil's boy Austin Rivers.
Is Melo/Lee an upgrade - or at least a better fit - than Griffin/Reddick? Don't think so, but the Clips need a change and don't have the assets to get a George/Butler type.
Blake doesn't have a NTC and can be sent to every team if you wanted. So you could trade for him then send him to Denver or OKC or Miami...places that maybe Melo wouldn't consider. Get the asset and figure it out later.
This year's pick?! Why would the Suns do that Griffin is even older than Bledsoe and they should trade Bledsoe for young players/picks. Plus Chriss is more or less a 20 year old Griffin.
The Clippers will start to ask themselves the hard questions: Does five more years of Griffin at a max salary make sense, or does maybe two years of Carmelo Anthony become an option?
not only is a one-for-one deal extremely unlikely considering Blake has no reason to want to come here...but I don't think that's what Woj is suggesting. What's more likely is that Blake goes elsewhere on his own (he can be a free agent after all) and the Clips then look to bring in Melo for whatever crap they're offering.
Why on Earth would he allow that to happen when he could be a FA? Even a max deal isn't worth going in with the Knicks right now.
The Blake option really complicates this. You'd really have to find a team that wants to pay him but is cap constrained, and has something to offer the Knicks in addition to expiring contracts.
Of course, Phil probably will overlook Blake's injury history. Healthy Blake is a great pair with KP -- Blake can man the middle offensively and is a good passing big. KP can do more of the rim protection.
damn good when he stays on the court. If he somehow finds his health and the Knicks land a stud guard in the draft they'd be off and running and in the mix right away. Of course, if they max him out and he's hurt the entire time then they are screwed.
Why on Earth would he allow that to happen when he could be a FA? Even a max deal isn't worth going in with the Knicks right now.
The Blake option really complicates this. You'd really have to find a team that wants to pay him but is cap constrained, and has something to offer the Knicks in addition to expiring contracts.
Of course, Phil probably will overlook Blake's injury history. Healthy Blake is a great pair with KP -- Blake can man the middle offensively and is a good passing big. KP can do more of the rim protection.
But yeah, sheesh. It is so risky to max Blake.
Blake really is a good fit next to kp and is a perfect fit for the offense the knicks will want to run..
he is a very good passer for a 4 man and his rangr has developed to the 3 point line..
This year's pick?! Why would the Suns do that Griffin is even older than Bledsoe and they should trade Bledsoe for young players/picks. Plus Chriss is more or less a 20 year old Griffin.
Having KP chase stretch 4s around the perimeter is dumb. KP is the perfect 5 for today's NBA.
Except he gets absolutely wrecked on the glass at the 5. Worse than Horford. Much worse, he can't even box out.
And more importantly, he can't set screens for absolute shit on offense. Having no one that can set screens on offense is...problematic to say the least.
3 way candidates (where Blake could say yes maybe)
Having KP chase stretch 4s around the perimeter is dumb. KP is the perfect 5 for today's NBA.
Except he gets absolutely wrecked on the glass at the 5. Worse than Horford. Much worse, he can't even box out.
And more importantly, he can't set screens for absolute shit on offense. Having no one that can set screens on offense is...problematic to say the least.
he is far from a finished product in some of these areas but you're overstating his issues IMO. Regardless, you live with those deficiencies in the short term with that idea that you can build a top 5 offense around him.
Jokic and look how that went for the nuggets. And Jokic is a BEAST rebounder.
I'd agree with that with a 4 like Griffin or Randle it would mitigate some of the issues with KP at the 5, but then you are killing all the benefits from playing KP at the 5 by playing a non-stretch 4.
KP should play the 5 in stretches. I don't think that should make up most of his time on the court, however.
of keeping Griffin. That's the equivalent of signing Melo to a 5 year deal a few years back. Maybe you get into the playoffs and win a round. But Griffin is probably going to be even worse than Melo at melo's current age and we'll have the whole dance about what team will trade for him again.
Jokic and look how that went for the nuggets. And Jokic is a BEAST rebounder.
I'd agree with that with a 4 like Griffin or Randle it would mitigate some of the issues with KP at the 5, but then you are killing all the benefits from playing KP at the 5 by playing a non-stretch 4.
KP should play the 5 in stretches. I don't think that should make up most of his time on the court, however.
Denver's D was as bad as its offense was good. Still, per the #s their win total underperformed production. Expected wins (BBR) was 42 which would be the 8 seed.
Denver gave a lot of run to 3 bad guards. Murray, Nelson, and Mudiay played 5215 minutes of 12 PER or less ball (.007, .065, and .038 WS48). That's 64 minutes per game over 82 games -- i.e. 32 minutes per game per guard slot.
of keeping Griffin. That's the equivalent of signing Melo to a 5 year deal a few years back. Maybe you get into the playoffs and win a round. But Griffin is probably going to be even worse than Melo at melo's current age and we'll have the whole dance about what team will trade for him again.
Hard pass.
You wont be in the NTC scenario. But yeah, Blake is too risky for THIS TEAM to max.
Jokic and look how that went for the nuggets. And Jokic is a BEAST rebounder.
I'd agree with that with a 4 like Griffin or Randle it would mitigate some of the issues with KP at the 5, but then you are killing all the benefits from playing KP at the 5 by playing a non-stretch 4.
KP should play the 5 in stretches. I don't think that should make up most of his time on the court, however.
Denver's D was as bad as its offense was good. Still, per the #s their win total underperformed production. Expected wins (BBR) was 42 which would be the 8 seed.
Denver gave a lot of run to 3 bad guards. Murray, Nelson, and Mudiay played 5215 minutes of 12 PER or less ball (.007, .065, and .038 WS48). That's 64 minutes per game over 82 games -- i.e. 32 minutes per game per guard slot.
Yeah also Jokic was a bum and was even benched for the first few weeks of the season and they missed the playoffs by like a game or two. So I cherry picked that team, sue me.
You can also reasonably project KP to be a much better defender than Jokic (at least rim protecting wise).
But overall I think center is a 10-15 minute role for KP, not a 25-30 minute gig. Sure you want to double down on spacing. But what about doublling down on length and having a solid traditional center at the 5 (could be Willy, could be someone else).
When he's healthy he's a max player. He can still dominate when he gets the ball and he's an excellent passer. He has expanded his offensive game. He doesn't dominate the ball and a very good guy to pair with another top player.
Remember that the Celts can renounce rights to FA Amir Johnson ($12M), Jerebko ($5M) and Olynyk ($3M) and fit Griffin's $20M cap hit without having to give up anything. Those 3 would be superfluous for Boston with Griffin on the roster.
I suppose that if Boston wanted to save cap space, they would renounce Johnson and Jerebko, and send Zeller to NY for Griffin and POQ. In that way, they could re-sign Olynyk if they wanted to- which might be wise for depth.
I think the smart move for the Knicks would NOT be to ask for the 2017 Brooklyn pick, but rather the 2018 pick- as well as Memphis's 2018 1st rounder, and a couple 2nd rounders.
When he's healthy he's a max player. He can still dominate when he gets the ball and he's an excellent passer. He has expanded his offensive game. He doesn't dominate the ball and a very good guy to pair with another top player.
so if you are the clippers you would max out paul and griffin and basically go the next 5 years eith the exact same team?
Paul gets heat for the playoff problems. In the collapse vs HOU, Griffin dominated but Paul wouldn't give up the ball in the 4th of the last 2 games. Both losses. He tried to take over. it didn't work.
Griffin can be a primary ball handler. He can be a point forward and thrive. When Paul is out and they need him to do it hes an elite player.
It's all about health. If Griffin is healthy he's a great guy to have on any team right now.
Paul gets heat for the playoff problems. In the collapse vs HOU, Griffin dominated but Paul wouldn't give up the ball in the 4th of the last 2 games. Both losses. He tried to take over. it didn't work.
Griffin can be a primary ball handler. He can be a point forward and thrive. When Paul is out and they need him to do it hes an elite player.
It's all about health. If Griffin is healthy he's a great guy to have on any team right now.
again its not about the single player, if you are the clippers why are you committing max dollars to keep the exact same team that has not won shit? it makes zero sense for the clippers to do that..
they dont even have 1st round picks to add to the team..
We're not getting Blake or any Brooklyn picks for Melo.
The Celtics would just do business directly with LAC, who I'm sure would rather have Josh Jackson or next year's Brooklyn pick than an aging Melo. Best we could do is pry Miami's lottery pick away in a Melo-to-LAC/Blake-to-MIA three-team swap. Or whatever OKC can spare us if Blake wants to go there.
This year's pick?! Why would the Suns do that Griffin is even older than Bledsoe and they should trade Bledsoe for young players/picks. Plus Chriss is more or less a 20 year old Griffin.
Thus the "lol". My expectation remains Melo to LAC in a deal centered around Rivers and future (2021/2023) picks.
could use help. If they picked up Joe Johnson it would have been the difference.
Whey not keep Paul, Griffin, and Jordan together? Then try and find better complimentary players. Get the right help and you can win a title with those 3.
That plan seems like a better shot at winning then breaking them up especially if it means bringing in a player like Melo. That to me isn't an option for them. It would be a terrible move. Melo is at the end of the line. It would be a step back.
This makes them worse, no question. I would guess that there would be a 3 way with Melo going to LAC, Griffin somewhere else and then pieces being split up going back to LAC and NY. So hypothetically:
Melo to LAC
Griffin to BOS
1st rounder to NYK from Boston
1st rounder to LAC from Boston
could use help. If they picked up Joe Johnson it would have been the difference.
Whey not keep Paul, Griffin, and Jordan together? Then try and find better complimentary players. Get the right help and you can win a title with those 3.
That plan seems like a better shot at winning then breaking them up especially if it means bringing in a player like Melo. That to me isn't an option for them. It would be a terrible move. Melo is at the end of the line. It would be a step back.
The Clippers already were in talks for Melo so clearly they have interest. It won't be for Griffin, that's fantasy talk but I suspect if you polled all GM's the Clippers would be the heavy favorites for him.
the problem with that trade is that the Celts can just sign Blake outright if he opts out.
True, but it might be in Griffin's interests to allow himself to be dealt to the Knicks, then opt-out and do a sign and trade deal to the team of his choice. Keep in mind that the Clips 1) might not be keen on sending him to a competitive team and 2) might not be willing to do a sign-and-trade deal.
By doing the sign and trade route, Griffin gets extra cash and possibly an extra year.
Agreed.
Is Melo/Lee an upgrade - or at least a better fit - than Griffin/Reddick? Don't think so, but the Clips need a change and don't have the assets to get a George/Butler type.
[quote] . [/quote
This....
Or to Miami for Tyler Johnson and a 1st.
Or to utah for Favors, Burks and exum
Or to OKC for oladipo grant and abrines.
Send KOQ and/or lee along as needed.
This year's pick?! Why would the Suns do that Griffin is even older than Bledsoe and they should trade Bledsoe for young players/picks. Plus Chriss is more or less a 20 year old Griffin.
not only is a one-for-one deal extremely unlikely considering Blake has no reason to want to come here...but I don't think that's what Woj is suggesting. What's more likely is that Blake goes elsewhere on his own (he can be a free agent after all) and the Clips then look to bring in Melo for whatever crap they're offering.
Having KP chase stretch 4s around the perimeter is dumb. KP is the perfect 5 for today's NBA.
The Blake option really complicates this. You'd really have to find a team that wants to pay him but is cap constrained, and has something to offer the Knicks in addition to expiring contracts.
Of course, Phil probably will overlook Blake's injury history. Healthy Blake is a great pair with KP -- Blake can man the middle offensively and is a good passing big. KP can do more of the rim protection.
But yeah, sheesh. It is so risky to max Blake.
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Why on Earth would he allow that to happen when he could be a FA? Even a max deal isn't worth going in with the Knicks right now.
The Blake option really complicates this. You'd really have to find a team that wants to pay him but is cap constrained, and has something to offer the Knicks in addition to expiring contracts.
Of course, Phil probably will overlook Blake's injury history. Healthy Blake is a great pair with KP -- Blake can man the middle offensively and is a good passing big. KP can do more of the rim protection.
But yeah, sheesh. It is so risky to max Blake.
Blake really is a good fit next to kp and is a perfect fit for the offense the knicks will want to run..
he is a very good passer for a 4 man and his rangr has developed to the 3 point line..
This year's pick?! Why would the Suns do that Griffin is even older than Bledsoe and they should trade Bledsoe for young players/picks. Plus Chriss is more or less a 20 year old Griffin.
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and making KP a 5 is dumb.
Having KP chase stretch 4s around the perimeter is dumb. KP is the perfect 5 for today's NBA.
Except he gets absolutely wrecked on the glass at the 5. Worse than Horford. Much worse, he can't even box out.
And more importantly, he can't set screens for absolute shit on offense. Having no one that can set screens on offense is...problematic to say the least.
CLE: Love
OKC: Oladipo
MILW: Various
DAL: Barnes
MIA: Winslow/Bosh
[note: these are the main pieces -- there would be other pieces involved]
Ultimately I believe KP will end up as a 5 but he needs to get stronger first.
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In comment 13444529 Phil in LA said:
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and making KP a 5 is dumb.
Having KP chase stretch 4s around the perimeter is dumb. KP is the perfect 5 for today's NBA.
Except he gets absolutely wrecked on the glass at the 5. Worse than Horford. Much worse, he can't even box out.
And more importantly, he can't set screens for absolute shit on offense. Having no one that can set screens on offense is...problematic to say the least.
he is far from a finished product in some of these areas but you're overstating his issues IMO. Regardless, you live with those deficiencies in the short term with that idea that you can build a top 5 offense around him.
I'd agree with that with a 4 like Griffin or Randle it would mitigate some of the issues with KP at the 5, but then you are killing all the benefits from playing KP at the 5 by playing a non-stretch 4.
KP should play the 5 in stretches. I don't think that should make up most of his time on the court, however.
question is can griffin stay healthy, he is still relatively young...
Hard pass.
I'd agree with that with a 4 like Griffin or Randle it would mitigate some of the issues with KP at the 5, but then you are killing all the benefits from playing KP at the 5 by playing a non-stretch 4.
KP should play the 5 in stretches. I don't think that should make up most of his time on the court, however.
Denver's D was as bad as its offense was good. Still, per the #s their win total underperformed production. Expected wins (BBR) was 42 which would be the 8 seed.
Denver gave a lot of run to 3 bad guards. Murray, Nelson, and Mudiay played 5215 minutes of 12 PER or less ball (.007, .065, and .038 WS48). That's 64 minutes per game over 82 games -- i.e. 32 minutes per game per guard slot.
Hard pass.
You wont be in the NTC scenario. But yeah, Blake is too risky for THIS TEAM to max.
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Jokic and look how that went for the nuggets. And Jokic is a BEAST rebounder.
I'd agree with that with a 4 like Griffin or Randle it would mitigate some of the issues with KP at the 5, but then you are killing all the benefits from playing KP at the 5 by playing a non-stretch 4.
KP should play the 5 in stretches. I don't think that should make up most of his time on the court, however.
Denver's D was as bad as its offense was good. Still, per the #s their win total underperformed production. Expected wins (BBR) was 42 which would be the 8 seed.
Denver gave a lot of run to 3 bad guards. Murray, Nelson, and Mudiay played 5215 minutes of 12 PER or less ball (.007, .065, and .038 WS48). That's 64 minutes per game over 82 games -- i.e. 32 minutes per game per guard slot.
Yeah also Jokic was a bum and was even benched for the first few weeks of the season and they missed the playoffs by like a game or two. So I cherry picked that team, sue me.
You can also reasonably project KP to be a much better defender than Jokic (at least rim protecting wise).
But overall I think center is a 10-15 minute role for KP, not a 25-30 minute gig. Sure you want to double down on spacing. But what about doublling down on length and having a solid traditional center at the 5 (could be Willy, could be someone else).
I still think Cleveland is going to be where he ends up.
Would they be fools to max Blake?
I'd strongly consider betting on a core of Lowry, derozan, Griffin and Ibaka to take down the Cavs.
clippers are going nowhere and with paul and griffin a free agent and no room to improve they have to do something...
also redick is a free agent..
i love how paul gets no criticism for his playoff failures
When he's healthy he's a max player. He can still dominate when he gets the ball and he's an excellent passer. He has expanded his offensive game. He doesn't dominate the ball and a very good guy to pair with another top player.
Griffin to the Celts
picks to the Knicks
Remember that the Celts can renounce rights to FA Amir Johnson ($12M), Jerebko ($5M) and Olynyk ($3M) and fit Griffin's $20M cap hit without having to give up anything. Those 3 would be superfluous for Boston with Griffin on the roster.
I suppose that if Boston wanted to save cap space, they would renounce Johnson and Jerebko, and send Zeller to NY for Griffin and POQ. In that way, they could re-sign Olynyk if they wanted to- which might be wise for depth.
I think the smart move for the Knicks would NOT be to ask for the 2017 Brooklyn pick, but rather the 2018 pick- as well as Memphis's 2018 1st rounder, and a couple 2nd rounders.
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to make this move. I'd say the chances of this happening are O.
clippers are going nowhere and with paul and griffin a free agent and no room to improve they have to do something...
also redick is a free agent..
i love how paul gets no criticism for his playoff failures
No criticism? That's literally all I hear about paul nowadays.
When he's healthy he's a max player. He can still dominate when he gets the ball and he's an excellent passer. He has expanded his offensive game. He doesn't dominate the ball and a very good guy to pair with another top player.
so if you are the clippers you would max out paul and griffin and basically go the next 5 years eith the exact same team?
Griffin can be a primary ball handler. He can be a point forward and thrive. When Paul is out and they need him to do it hes an elite player.
It's all about health. If Griffin is healthy he's a great guy to have on any team right now.
Griffin can be a primary ball handler. He can be a point forward and thrive. When Paul is out and they need him to do it hes an elite player.
It's all about health. If Griffin is healthy he's a great guy to have on any team right now.
again its not about the single player, if you are the clippers why are you committing max dollars to keep the exact same team that has not won shit? it makes zero sense for the clippers to do that..
they dont even have 1st round picks to add to the team..
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to the Suns for their pick and Bledsoe. Done! lol
This year's pick?! Why would the Suns do that Griffin is even older than Bledsoe and they should trade Bledsoe for young players/picks. Plus Chriss is more or less a 20 year old Griffin.
Thus the "lol". My expectation remains Melo to LAC in a deal centered around Rivers and future (2021/2023) picks.
Whey not keep Paul, Griffin, and Jordan together? Then try and find better complimentary players. Get the right help and you can win a title with those 3.
That plan seems like a better shot at winning then breaking them up especially if it means bringing in a player like Melo. That to me isn't an option for them. It would be a terrible move. Melo is at the end of the line. It would be a step back.
Melo to LAC
Griffin to BOS
1st rounder to NYK from Boston
1st rounder to LAC from Boston
Whey not keep Paul, Griffin, and Jordan together? Then try and find better complimentary players. Get the right help and you can win a title with those 3.
That plan seems like a better shot at winning then breaking them up especially if it means bringing in a player like Melo. That to me isn't an option for them. It would be a terrible move. Melo is at the end of the line. It would be a step back.
The Clippers already were in talks for Melo so clearly they have interest. It won't be for Griffin, that's fantasy talk but I suspect if you polled all GM's the Clippers would be the heavy favorites for him.
True, but it might be in Griffin's interests to allow himself to be dealt to the Knicks, then opt-out and do a sign and trade deal to the team of his choice. Keep in mind that the Clips 1) might not be keen on sending him to a competitive team and 2) might not be willing to do a sign-and-trade deal.
By doing the sign and trade route, Griffin gets extra cash and possibly an extra year.