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How much do the Giants value offensive line.

LauderdaleMatty : 4/29/2017 8:18 am
I started this because IMO I do bit think the current GM and his staff value OL nearly as much as they should

I don't believe you can judge any GM year to year. It isn't really fair. And I like he first two picks this year. And I also know it's harder to find NFL ready offensive linemen as the college game has changed.

But here's a quick loomaf Reese's investment in the OL over his tenure as GM vs the other position groups

OL. Rounds 1-3. 4 picks
DL. Rnds 1-3. 9 picks
WR 1-3. 9 picks
DB. 1-3. 9 picks

Now along w that the only two guys I can remember them targeting As starter level FAs were Baas who. Was never healthy and Schwartz. Neither guys you would say were studs. Not like grabbing Vernon or Rolle.

So you don't draft peremium players alll that much and you don't sign FAs.

So people who want to give Reese cover fine. But to me it's like LB. He just doesn't invest in it. Hence why that group is thin and for the 5th year in a row highly suspect
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RE: the  
Jimmy Googs : 4/29/2017 8:40 am : link
In comment 13451686 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Giants have invested TWO number one picks and ONE number two pick in recent years.

That's 3/5th of the line with premium picks.



At this rate, we may never take another O-lineman...
A little more than they value linebackers  
jeff57 : 4/29/2017 8:45 am : link
.
The Patriots starting O line  
RobCarpenter : 4/29/2017 8:55 am : link
Has one first round pick, a third, fourth, fifth, and an undrafted player (the Center). So by the same logic of draft choices the defending SB champs value the O line less than the Giants.
RE: The Patriots starting O line  
Jimmy Googs : 4/29/2017 8:57 am : link
In comment 13451732 RobCarpenter said:
Quote:
Has one first round pick, a third, fourth, fifth, and an undrafted player (the Center). So by the same logic of draft choices the defending SB champs value the O line less than the Giants.


i guess they know how to develop them then...
How many QBs were drafted in round 1-3?  
Mike from Ohio : 4/29/2017 8:58 am : link
Do they not value that position?

The point is that the analysis you posted is very cursory and does not make your point at all. Are you suggesting most other teams spend a lot of picks in rounds 1-3 on the OL?

You do realize the investment the Cowboys have in their OLine is an anomaly in the league, right?

You seem to be grasping at the wrong argument. The front office values the OLine properly, the guys ey have picked with high picks have just not panned out. That is a different issue entirely.
Your analysis proves what we already knew  
BillT : 4/29/2017 9:02 am : link
The Giants priority positions for their top draft choices are WR, DB bad DL. This has been their scheme since EAcawas GM and it's a smart one. It's what got us the SB titles and the superb defense that we currently have along with players like Nicks, Smith, OBJ, Manningham and Shepard.

Otherwise, the Giants have 2, #1 drafts choices and a # 2 draft choice currently on the OL which is hardly ignoring the position. They have also signed a number of FAs to the OL. The OL, however, is not a priority position. We all knew that.
RE: RE: RE: It's been addressed in the OTHER thread  
adamg : 4/29/2017 9:03 am : link
In comment 13451700 David in LA said:
Quote:
In comment 13451689 LauderdaleMatty said:


Quote:


In comment 13451683 David in LA said:


Quote:


your dumb take doesn't require another thread dedicated to it. It's already been shitted on by multiple posters.



Poor fatty. Sitting at his desk with his untucked shirt. So Reese has invested lot of players in the OL in 10 years. Missed that. PleAse copy and paste for me fatty



Not fat. That's now three swings and three misses for you this morning. Look at the rousing support you're getting on this thread. You got caught with your pants down in the logic department, and hurl an insult when cornered. That's the tactic of someone without a leg to stand on.


David, you didn't respond to the comment about your shirt being untucked. I think we - as witnesses to this brilliant exchange - deserve to know the truth about these rumors of slovenly dress.
RE: RE: We are going to have a quick hitting offense  
Gatorade Dunk : 4/29/2017 9:10 am : link
In comment 13451684 LauderdaleMatty said:
Quote:
In comment 13451672 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


where pass pro won't be as big a factor as it was under Gillbride. We have the weapons now to pull it off. We also invested in running the ball more.

With the contracts out there for average lineman we took a different approach to fixing a weakness. We'll see how it pans out.



I think thAts why McAdoo was hired and was the pick to replace TC. But even GB Still finds the ball. The Giants and. It good at pass pro or running and haven't been in years. At some point scheming your way around a crappy OL catches up with you

Some friendly feedback - the preview button is your friend. I think your posts get discredited because of the alphabet soup output.
The Giants invest or try to plenty in the OL.  
Devon : 4/29/2017 9:10 am : link
They've been actively trying to rebuild the OL, in various ways, since probably 2009.

They just stink at evaluating and developing it, even with turnover in personnel.

There's a big difference there, even though both are negatives.
Bottom Line  
Carl in CT : 4/29/2017 9:14 am : link
Yes they have invested in it. Problem is the players that they selected.
2 holes in the logic  
TexasGmenFan : 4/29/2017 9:15 am : link
1: as Eric alluded to, its the not necessarily the investment, but the players since top picks have been burned on OL in recent years

2: why would he have invested top picks in OL early in his tenure when NYG had one of the best OL in football...that biases the numbers as well.
probably more to the point  
idiotsavant : 4/29/2017 9:16 am : link
the team has not seemed to draft OL into any particular system, or concept; zone, power, Green Bay, Tom Coughlin or whatever.

We have a small-ish and yes, weak ish in anchor but nifty mobile left guard and center, 3 giant wanna-be tall power right tackles (flowers, hart, fluker) and a random selection over the years of grab baggers with varied styles.

Obviously I advocated -strongly- to go all in on what Big Mac and co. tried or appeared to try to do last season, and yet which our line was not really matched well for:

Now, wait and see -

if they change the play calling and design or if the new receivers can run super shorts and get YACs, or if they go outside zone runs with play action to extend the route time or what the intended run system actually even IS here!
Plus what did you want them to do?  
nygiants16 : 4/29/2017 9:17 am : link
this draft class is god awful for olineman, so you wanted them to reaxh for one that probably wouldnt play and then what you can rip him again for picking a baf player?

either way jerry loses
Well unfortunately the other god awful thing is the O-lineman  
Jimmy Googs : 4/29/2017 9:22 am : link
on our roster, so we gotta' try to find somebody in this draft to displace some of our current guys...
not true  
idiotsavant : 4/29/2017 9:23 am : link
I at least advocated a very, very specific line, and one that did not go for pie-in-the-sky tackles:

Invest 1st and second round picks on guards and centers that anchor much more strongly (doable that high) then use pugh and one of the existing OTs left and right to run lots of outside zone runs as an alternative to gain longer route time for WRs, while the new much better anchoring G-C-G trio would form a long lasting more stable pocket for manning to step up into, also garnering longer route times.

The idea being that fixing the OT is harder to do in draft % wise, whereas G-C-G you can get done.

And based on Green Bay style and Macs play calling (with the outside zone as a new twist).

Argue all you want, if it was the right way, but you cannot argue that it was not achievable.

Finding great OTs may not have been achievable, but my thing did not attempt that.
/\ for 16  
idiotsavant : 4/29/2017 9:24 am : link
.
Gotta love the BBI elite  
Kivorka : 4/29/2017 9:24 am : link
They must judge a thread worthy of comment. For the most part Reese has invested in the oline, he just sucks at doing it
I would only add that with a trade down  
idiotsavant : 4/29/2017 9:28 am : link
into high second, third, you would have had your new better anchoring G-C-G plus some random blue chipper, no problems, over the course of the whole draft.
RE: /\ for 16  
nygiants16 : 4/29/2017 9:31 am : link
In comment 13451807 idiotsavant said:
Quote:
.


wait who specifically did you want?

the problem with the offensive line is left tackle, john jerry actually played wellaat year, rochburgh was hurt for the entire year...

in retrospect  
idiotsavant : 4/29/2017 9:32 am : link
my mocks look doable, roughly;

top, top anchoring G and C, mid range TE (hodges) and a late round DT or two, Nose types.

All that said, hoping the actual round 2 DT stays healthy and am optimistic about that one.
/\ 16  
idiotsavant : 4/29/2017 9:34 am : link
I argued that in detail both schematically and with names of players leading up to the draft - for months.

its over now, check the archives.
RE: /\ 16  
nygiants16 : 4/29/2017 9:36 am : link
In comment 13451833 idiotsavant said:
Quote:
I argued that in detail both schematically and with names of players leading up to the draft - for months.

its over now, check the archives.


fact still remains g-c-g is not the problem with the offensive line ao i dont get how that helps?
idiot  
Klaatu : 4/29/2017 9:37 am : link
You might want to see just who Green Bay's offensive linemen have been before you once again spout off about "Mac ball."
and there was no top center or guard who was coming in and starting  
nygiants16 : 4/29/2017 9:37 am : link
right away..
in short, 16  
idiotsavant : 4/29/2017 9:38 am : link
that whereas I like Pugh, and Richburg, they did not match the requirements that Mac and Sully put on them last season.

and that fixing the G-C-G to match Mac Ball was more doable than fixing the OTs (which is the party line, OT birds).

and also advocated schemeatics as above in a post to address tackle play
not true 16  
idiotsavant : 4/29/2017 9:40 am : link
lamp will be by al accounts a much better -anchoring- OLG than Pugh. MUCH.

and Asiata a much stronger based / anchored heavier C than Richburg...Dawkins...others....
I'm  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 4/29/2017 9:41 am : link
in the minority here, but I did NOT want the Giants to take an offensive lineman high in this draft.

Why? This is a down year for OL's. Ereck Flowers probably would have been the first pick in this draft.
...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 4/29/2017 9:41 am : link
first OL pick
RE: I'm  
nygiants16 : 4/29/2017 9:42 am : link
In comment 13451855 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
in the minority here, but I did NOT want the Giants to take an offensive lineman high in this draft.

Why? This is a down year for OL's. Ereck Flowers probably would have been the first pick in this draft.


my point exactly
Eric  
cosmicj : 4/29/2017 9:43 am : link
I'm with you about the OL, although with the 4th Rd upon us I think Reese and Ross need to just take the highest rated OL on their board unless there is a lapel-grabbing reason to take amguy at another position.
I said to 16 , Klaatu  
idiotsavant : 4/29/2017 9:43 am : link
that its over I don't want to rehash this. go to the archives if you really care that much.

But, I stand -totally- by all of it, the draft and this thread shows that the questions remain,

>>>>lets wait and see the play of these guys, and the shematics changes if any, and hope for a fun season.
It's gonna be the same thing until he's gone  
ghost718 : 4/29/2017 9:48 am : link
Nothing you can do about it.

Right now we're in the middle of a cycle,he took the athlete in the first,the DT in the 2nd,and backup QB in the 3rd.Offense line is due next year.
Tough to not give some thought to how bad our O-line was last year  
Jimmy Googs : 4/29/2017 9:49 am : link
and we have really only added Fluker and Ellison. Hope they are over-acheivers because our guys really stunk.

Not saying John Hannah or Anthony Munoz were sitting there in this draft, but no way our Tackles and John Jerry cannot be challenged by guys on this board...
Jerry is a good scout  
idiotsavant : 4/29/2017 9:57 am : link
even a great scout - for certain positions.

But he is not a strategist by any measure, does not appear to have any desire to 'see whole drafts' nor appears to delegate strategy or even certain units emphasis to anyone worth it, or to consider synergy beyond the unit level.

I don't know enough about the teams inner workings to know if those people are not on staff or are not being spoken to.

In short, it comes down to what type of ball do you enjoy as a fan.

- Younger fans seem to love the basketball aspect, big stars and fast athletes. Old farts like some of us seem to like solid line play and sustained drives that eat the clock, runs with emphasis and tough D the other way.

It is totally and fairly subjective and there are -no rules- about what anyone enjoys as a fan!

hate to Comp Sir Bill  
idiotsavant : 4/29/2017 10:01 am : link
but they actually do the big picture thing.

They run the team a certain way, in reality, not rhetoric.

They draft accordingly, by type, and most importantly, co-ordinate the 'whole draft market play' with the above factors.

This is where I think  
idiotsavant : 4/29/2017 10:38 am : link
one problem lies, if one exists. (in addition to not seeing the draft as a whole market)

All systems and even all creative endeavors are hierarchical - to a degree.

Different systems tend to best establish hierarchies very differently, and one should know which you are in.

Even in the arts, certain great artists have hierarchies and systems that are known only to themselves. But they stick with them religiously. Its up to you to get it or not, and the critics are like translators.

In theater, the director is like a dictator, must be, and should be, but also -has to- communicate his or her wishes very, very clearly and also find the right people to implement them. So, the hierarchy is clear, but it only extends to that one production. When it is over its over and it does not extend past the door after the last show. And has almost nothing to do with some other directors work.

In basketball, BPA is closer to league wide, system wide, quality of a singular player. So, your hierarchy is -league wide- to a degree. More unitary.

In football, BPA is much more team centric, fit centric. So, one would want to have a -very- clear view as to what the coach and position coaches are trying to do, and fit picks within that. Our OL seems like a mish mash from two or three different directors or artists. Our approach to the draft seems league centric not team centric or even a particular draft centric.

Such would require internal discussions.

It may take -years- to gel, if 'league wide type best quality' players are found (for which the system yet needs to change. i.e. proceeding without those conversations).

Conversely, a conversation may take 15 minutes or a few days at longest - to find fits that gel right away.
Any way you spin it  
WillVAB : 4/29/2017 10:52 am : link
The OL has been bad for about six years. So posters can argue about OL investments but the fact is Reese hasn't been able to acquire the right group of players via the draft or FA along the OL.
OL looks like it's going to be somewhere between  
The_Boss : 4/29/2017 11:14 am : link
Mediocre to bad once again. Normally I would take this opportunity to excoriate the GM, but to be fair, we didn't have the cap space to chase the (few) quality FA OL this year and the draftsble OL prospects were/are poor and that can be backed up with the paucity of OL drafted through 3 rounds. I think the number is 7?? Anyway, what concerns me beyond how the OL is going to perform in 2017 is who is going to be around in 2018? I don't think Pugh is close to an $8 million per year OG, but I'm sure he might get it on the open market and Richburg is a slightly above average OC, at best. Fluker is a FA and Flowers (if he doesn't markedly improve) is heading down Bust Avenue.
RE: so  
81_Great_Dane : 4/29/2017 11:14 am : link
In comment 13451690 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
if you want to criticize Reese, don't criticize him for not investing picks. Criticize him for picking the wrong guys.
Exactly. They've put a ton of resources into O-line. But they haven't got the results.
this OL class sucks  
annexOPR : 4/29/2017 11:19 am : link
and the giants will be much better off long term going in the direction they have

in my mock I didn't bother with an OL early for the same reason. Day 3 I wouldn't be shocked if they drafted least 1 (possibly 2) developmental prospects to try and coach up.

Lamp in the 2nd round would've been the only logical choice, but staying put for Tomlinson will pay off in other ways.

I expect the Giants would've drafted accordingly had they felt the OT/G were worth it. Instead they add a potential unstoppable force to the receiving corp, the best run stopping DT, and the potential successor to Eli.

we will never know if a trade down was available  
idiotsavant : 4/29/2017 11:22 am : link
but a magic move that could have been within this context

and asiata vs the QB.
RE: RE: RE: RE: It's been addressed in the OTHER thread  
David in LA : 4/29/2017 1:06 pm : link
In comment 13451746 adamg said:
Quote:
In comment 13451700 David in LA said:


Quote:


In comment 13451689 LauderdaleMatty said:


Quote:


In comment 13451683 David in LA said:


Quote:


your dumb take doesn't require another thread dedicated to it. It's already been shitted on by multiple posters.



Poor fatty. Sitting at his desk with his untucked shirt. So Reese has invested lot of players in the OL in 10 years. Missed that. PleAse copy and paste for me fatty



Not fat. That's now three swings and three misses for you this morning. Look at the rousing support you're getting on this thread. You got caught with your pants down in the logic department, and hurl an insult when cornered. That's the tactic of someone without a leg to stand on.



David, you didn't respond to the comment about your shirt being untucked. I think we - as witnesses to this brilliant exchange - deserve to know the truth about these rumors of slovenly dress.


Lmao!
RE: We are going to have a quick hitting offense  
mdc1 : 4/29/2017 1:19 pm : link
In comment 13451672 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
where pass pro won't be as big a factor as it was under Gillbride. We have the weapons now to pull it off. We also invested in running the ball more.

With the contracts out there for average lineman we took a different approach to fixing a weakness. We'll see how it pans out.


I think the Giants have dumbed down on stupid again here, regardless of whether this is an on year or off year for oline picks. Right now we have guys that should not be playing. What do we do we select an hback receiver type at TE that is not a blocker? Eli is not mobile enough to deal with the lack of talent up front. You win championships in the trenches, this unit will not do it. You can re-arrange the deck chairs, plug holes, put lipstick on a pig, but at the end of the day its still a pig.
The giants probably like their guards very much  
djm : 4/29/2017 1:25 pm : link
They definitely like their center. They obviously trust flowers and feel he's about to enter his prime in year 3, which happens virtually all the time but in the world of BBI he's garbage and forever will be garbage. Giants have been right about younger players that needed time to develop and they have been wrong but I feel like their track record warrants some faith. Gasp.

The only position they probably feel needs talent infusion is RT and stop me if I'm going to fast, they might not like the players in this draft.

Hard to process I know. Let it marinate a bit.
Very few on here want to acknowledge  
djm : 4/29/2017 1:29 pm : link
That teams in this era, giants included are comfortable with having one or two areas of the team comprised of lesser quality talent. As long as those players are reliable and professional they figure they can make do. The giants aren't the only good team with flaws. The giants aren't the only team with flawed olines.

Three highly drafted players are on this line. Four if you count fluker. The key is flowers. If he gets even a little better the unit will be fine and actually house a lot of depth.

They addressed the OL for past several years  
micky : 4/29/2017 3:40 pm : link
Unfortunately, the whiffed on talent evaluation for 3/5ths of that line..via draft and fa.

They may be handcuffed..the offense that is..again this year. It's up to Eli now to overcome it.
RE: so  
widmerseyebrow : 4/29/2017 3:52 pm : link
In comment 13451690 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
if you want to criticize Reese, don't criticize him for not investing picks. Criticize him for picking the wrong guys.


Absolutely on the guys he picks. And also for not bringing in additional competition when offensive line was arguable the weakest spot on the team.
Just because there weren't any good 1st round left tackles  
widmerseyebrow : 4/29/2017 3:53 pm : link
Doesn't mean there weren't any quality offensive linemen in the entire draft. We could use competition at guard just as badly as tackle.
Big IF but  
mrvax : 4/29/2017 4:05 pm : link
if Fluker & Flowers can improve a little, this Oline could become average this season.
RE: Big IF but  
LauderdaleMatty : 4/29/2017 5:56 pm : link
In comment 13453044 mrvax said:
Quote:
if Fluker & Flowers can improve a little, this Oline could become average this season.


So that's the goal? Average. The whole point of the thread is to point out he fallacy that the Giants FO really does put assets into the OL. They missed on. Bromley. They grabbed Tomlinson. They missed on Hosley they grab Apple and sign DRC.

When Reese took over the OL was set. So for 5 years he took one OL in the top 3 rounds. Then he had to force pick OL. None of them Pro bowlers by any stretch. . And in the same time when he's missed on DBs DTs and CBs he goes out and gets them.

Anyone who enjoyed the offense last year is a massochist. The OL has sucked for 5 years and this year Iike younim praying the OL takes a step forward. But if Webb is a future pick and they can't sign Pugh in the offseason. And Fluker leaves the OL is fucked.

A RB In Rd 4 over Asiata or anyone else?
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