fixing the mistakes he made in 2008-2012. His poor performance placed the Giants in a deep talent deficit that the team is stilling trying to climb out of, especially for the OL.
Jerry's performance improved once the team put him on notice.
Jerry earned, and rightfully received, all of the criticism he has received. Now Jerry should receive some praise for his increased performance, and the positive impact on the Giants talent.
However, the talent deficit still remains and much work is still ahead to build the Giants.
Keep the pressure on Jerry to perform, or move on.
I thpught they had a great draft. It helps when you pick early in the round.
I love their first twk picks in Fournette and Robinson. Tbeir defense really does have a ton of talent. They just have to start putting it togetber. So, to help Bortles out with Fournette and bolster the OL with Robinson means they should see an improvement in Bortles. They also have some talent at WR. They added a FB in round 7 too.
Then they drafted Dede Westbrook at WR in the 4th. I like his game. They really bolstered that offense in this draft.
In defense they added DE Dwyane Smoot in the 3rd, LB Blair Brown in the 5th, and CB Jaken Myrick in the 7th. I don't know much about these players though.
fixing the mistakes he made in 2008-2012. His poor performance placed the Giants in a deep talent deficit that the team is stilling trying to climb out of, especially for the OL.
Jerry's performance improved once the team put him on notice.
Jerry earned, and rightfully received, all of the criticism he has received. Now Jerry should receive some praise for his increased performance, and the positive impact on the Giants talent.
However, the talent deficit still remains and much work is still ahead to build the Giants.
Keep the pressure on Jerry to perform, or move on.
his boss wrote him a $200 million dollar check to fix the defense. Would have been difficult not to have "improved performance" after that spend.
RE: RE: Jerry has done a better job the last couple of years
his boss wrote him a $200 million dollar check to fix the defense. Would have been difficult not to have "improved performance" after that spend.
Every team has the same number of cap dollars to spend. Reese finally had ample cap space (after some bad drafts and FA signings in which he obviously played the key role), and he used that space well. Period.
Listen, as Giant fans, we want our team in the playoffs every year, with a shot at the SB....if we fall short of that goal, then we play the blame game....whether it's the owner, the GM, or players....
Sometimes, things go in cycles, and there are no absolutes, in getting the right player in the draft or free agency....many times it's luck.....but sometimes you can hedge your bet, by doing your homework.....
Heck, we slam each other on BBI, if someone doesn't follow the mainstream of thought, right or wrong....
Reese had a good draft last season.....it was going to be hard to match it....
As far as this one goes, you will get a better idea, at the end of the season, but the draft as a whole, as we all know, can't really be evaluated until those rookie contracts end....
Hell, it's the nature of the beast....it will always be, what have you done for me lately.....Reese will, always be on the hotseat......but that's what he gets paid for.....
I still wish eli was picking Reese's successor instead of the other way around ... I just don't like his philosophy on putting a team together, much prefer building from the line on offense and from linebackers on defense.
In fact, picking talent is kind of like hitting a baseball, if you succeed more than 30% of the time you belong in the Hall of Fame.
That being said, Reese is neither opposed to trading up nor trading down. I imagine he explores both options in every draft and every round, but he--like his mentor, George Young--is conservative by nature. He is not going to give up a 2nd round pick to trade up, so he is limited in just how far he can move up. Which I support because 2nd round picks are pure gold.
On Thursday, there may or may not have been an opportunity to jump ahead of Tampa Bay, thus giving them their choice of Bolles, Howard, and Davis. Three prospects who they reportedly liked, but none of them--in my book--worthy of the added cost of the 3rd round pick. In fact, of the three of them, it's only Bolles who I would take ahead of Engram, and that's assuming the Giants had a 1st round grade on Bolles. Howard reminds me too much of Martellus Bennett. I like Davis well enough, but the tie goes to the healthier history when it comes to him and Engram.
RE: RE: Jerry has done a better job the last couple of years
player acquisition is a team effort. During the time we got into trouble (poor FA pickups, drafts, re-signings) the team was TC, Mara, Reese, C Mara, a conglomeration of position coaches, more or less in that order. There was the big three of Mara, TC, and Reese, and I have a suspicion that Chris made a run to be at the big boy table, but washed out. we can argue about the order, but it's pretty obvious there were a lot of chefs cooking up the meal. Reese may very well have been a big part of the problem. but we don't know that. Reese wears the GM hat, but there are plenty of influences. No way in hell he's the sole arbitrator of what goes on, or went on.
And we typically agree in the -one sense- that one does not want to go into any game saying "we are going to run right X times, pass Y times to the TE" and etc. That would be silly.
Stats do, however, tell a clear story, after the fact, and its a story, right now, for us, does remain O line centric, with regards to last seasons team.
Here are some numbers that should change for Mr. Reese to avoid legit, rational criticism:
First Downs 3rd down conversion .-
29th in the league in total numbers. (very poor)
35% in conversion rate,
only 73 rushing on the entire year,
with a whopping 190 by pass (from 3rd, i.e. very unbalanced and not typically a playoff type ratio in the NFCE) .
4th downs its 9 rush and 19 pass for 47% (indicates high risk high reward)
now, the new WRS and TE help, but how do you jive 'pass quickly to avoid the rush technique' with 'pass far down the seam' timing wise? What type of run plays are we going to use to avoid the pushing back of Pugh and Rich on the inside?
Here are last years overall rushing numbers:
NY Giants
398 attempts
1412 total
3.5 average
25 longest
6TDs by rush total (an abysmal stat)
88yards per game average
personally, I think Reese's current position is the strongest he's ever had. He's always had to deal with a borderline HOF HC who obviously is going to get a lot of say, and a family ownership who want to stamp his own brand (john) or be the GM (Chris). TC is gone, Chris seems to be invisible. John is always going to be in the picture.
29th in the league in 3rd down conversions is not a playoff
Coach and a QB, we will see how they turn out. According to conventional BBI wisdom, Reese would never be fired without having had a chance to pick his own coach and QB.
In fact, picking talent is kind of like hitting a baseball, if you succeed more than 30% of the time you belong in the Hall of Fame.
That being said, Reese is neither opposed to trading up nor trading down. I imagine he explores both options in every draft and every round, but he--like his mentor, George Young--is conservative by nature. He is not going to give up a 2nd round pick to trade up, so he is limited in just how far he can move up. Which I support because 2nd round picks are pure gold.
On Thursday, there may or may not have been an opportunity to jump ahead of Tampa Bay, thus giving them their choice of Bolles, Howard, and Davis. Three prospects who they reportedly liked, but none of them--in my book--worthy of the added cost of the 3rd round pick. In fact, of the three of them, it's only Bolles who I would take ahead of Engram, and that's assuming the Giants had a 1st round grade on Bolles. Howard reminds me too much of Martellus Bennett. I like Davis well enough, but the tie goes to the healthier history when it comes to him and Engram.
Reese and George barely overlapped. If he had a mentor it was Ernie.
RE: Jerry has done a better job the last couple of years
fixing the mistakes he made in 2008-2012. His poor performance placed the Giants in a deep talent deficit that the team is stilling trying to climb out of, especially for the OL.
Jerry's performance improved once the team put him on notice.
Jerry earned, and rightfully received, all of the criticism he has received. Now Jerry should receive some praise for his increased performance, and the positive impact on the Giants talent.
However, the talent deficit still remains and much work is still ahead to build the Giants.
Keep the pressure on Jerry to perform, or move on.
The 2008 draft was pretty good. It's the 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, and I would even say the 2013 draft that set this roster back.
he did have that bad 3-4 drafts in a row but the last few where much better
i liked this draft webb and all,they finally got eli the move TE that made cousins look good,with engram in the same role and i believe that pick was something macadoo lobbied for the scheme he brought over they needed that TE to make it work
they got another very good DT to replace hankins day1 in the second round that wasn't a given. he has upside to even be an upgrade over hankins this pick was vital to stuff the rush up the middle escpecially vs dallas
i firmly believe they would have drafted garcia in the 3rd round had pats not jumped ahead of them. when that happened jerry followed his board. webb was listed by many as a late first early second round pick and slid to the bottom of the 3rd this was a true bpa pick after thier target was snatched in my view
i dont like the pick they could have got a very good OL,CB a better DL there but that was short term need,eli is clearly in decline. i remember the struggle to find a QB years after simms with a succession of dud QB's like dave brown and clearly people in the organisation do too
the kid is very athletic 6'5" and can sling the ball deep,he doesnt need to start. its the perfect situation for him,he is said to smart and hard working,given a couple of years learning behind eli and learning how to read defences and work on his progressions they have a chance to do a brett farve to rogers type hand over in a few years
im not saying he will have that type of success but given the recent price for even a small move up where QB's are concerned and the historically poor performance of past 3rd round picks i commend the guts it took to make that pick and try to set them up down the road it works he will be hailed for this pick in a few years,if not its another 3rd round bust to the list
i would prefer this approach over what chicago and cleveland did ,trubisky started 13 games there isnt enough tape to scout him properly and to give up multiple picks for that ontop of your first rounder is utter stupidity when they could have stood pat and drafted him anyway in all likelihood. there were also no other QB off the board there either,then cleveland who took kizer even thou they themselves didnt rate him enough. its why they could be picking at the top of the draft for many more years to come inspite of the talent they have elsewhere and keep adding to
I still wish eli was picking Reese's successor instead of the other way around ... I just don't like his philosophy on putting a team together, much prefer building from the line on offense and from linebackers on defense.
What team builds from The LB on defense?
It damn sure has t been The Giants since George Young died.
Reese has been running this team behind the scenes since the early 2000's.
So every version of this team you've seen in the last 17 plus years has his DNA mixed in.
The thing is,Reese builds from both lines up.
It's just the fact He picked a LT who hasn't panned out yet.
Everyone keeps on saying we need OLine help,but in the last 5 years we have drafted Pugh,Richburg,Flowers,Hart,signed Schwartz (who stayed hurt) Released Betty (he was supposed to start until Flowers was ready)
So it's not as if Reese hasn't been actively looking to fix the line.
It's the fact the moves he made have been a mixed bag of results.
very obviously, team that cannot run tend to risk taking more sacks or at very least risk having more incompletions on conversions as the QB avoids the situation
This would be a stat that's harder to find: Incomplete passes (not INTS) on 3rd down conversion attempts .
Which obviously typically leads to punts. Here, you have a savvy veteran QB, under duress from a combination of weak line play coupled with an overabundance of non play action passing type passes (simple pass plays from an OL pass protection perspective) who is experienced enough to dump the ball as opposed to turning it over.
Plenty of nuance and knowledge in pass patterns, routes, savvy and complexity as needed. Check.
Absolute lack of those qualities in the design of line play in. support. of. those passes. You have very little run game, ergo very little legit or functional play action.
Even, the pre-snap attitude or expectations within a DL you are facing (those that come with a legit run game) even when in the absence of play action, being missing.
Weather its lack of attention to the relationship between run and pass when it comes to outcomes of line play and individual linesmens progression as players by staff, or weather its the staffs lack of faith in the current OL roster to get additional things done, we cannot tell from afar.
Ben Macadoo and many others, underestimating what a unique talent Aaron Rodgers was, covering up for Green Bays less than perfect approach to football, by being able to roll out in either direction and rip perfect long passes at will across his own body.
he needs to start drafting good players in the 3rd round and later
I thpught they had a great draft. It helps when you pick early in the round.
I love their first twk picks in Fournette and Robinson. Tbeir defense really does have a ton of talent. They just have to start putting it togetber. So, to help Bortles out with Fournette and bolster the OL with Robinson means they should see an improvement in Bortles. They also have some talent at WR. They added a FB in round 7 too.
Then they drafted Dede Westbrook at WR in the 4th. I like his game. They really bolstered that offense in this draft.
In defense they added DE Dwyane Smoot in the 3rd, LB Blair Brown in the 5th, and CB Jaken Myrick in the 7th. I don't know much about these players though.
I said this team will be a force in the NFL very fast with TC and Marrone.
I'm guessing he is highly motivated to win a Super Bowl with his own coach, one he had brought in. What better way to cement his legacy?
I still believe he was more at fault for some of those bad teams than Coughlin was but he has also done a great job rebuilding the defense to a championship level and now appears to be finding some of the pieces needed on offense.
I think Reese is fine, lets all hope Mcadoo proves he is up to the task. He is the real unknown not Reese.
I still wish eli was picking Reese's successor instead of the other way around ... I just don't like his philosophy on putting a team together, much prefer building from the line on offense and from linebackers on defense.
Building a defense from linebackers?! Name one 4-3 defense built on defenses that hoisted the Lombardi.
Are we to wait until Eli's wheels fall off before finding a successor? I love Eli, but at some point you have to have a plan for life after him. Webb has the physical skills but he needs a little time; which seems like a good fit. What's funny is that some of the response makes it seem like this pick will kill Eli's confidence. Eli has handled every difficult situation in the most difficult market in all of sports with class and grace. But now he's supposedly shook they drafted a QB in the 3rd round.
Reese and George barely overlapped. If he had a mentor it was Ernie.
It was Young who brought him in as a scout in 1994 and it was Young who was his first mentor. Four years is a long time especially when it's your first three or four years in the field. Accorsi was never a scout, he wasn't even a football man. He was a sportswriter and baseball was his first love.
He's a HOF GM. Whether some of you like him or not
Not yet, he's not.
It's not hating on him to say that if the Giants end up being more of the team they've been since that 2008 team (without any additional highly improbable title runs) for the rest of his time here, he's not going to sniff it.
And no one should "never be" in the NFL or sports in general. He shouldn't be right now.
People who criticize Reese's drafting don't hate him.
I also say that his free agency last year was one for the ages. Everyone was always saying, "You can't build your team by buying free agents, you have to build through the draft."
Reese proved them wrong.
His drafting can be very puzzling. Picking Engram reminds me of picking Wilson. An exciting luxury pick chosen before the offense could block for him.
The Giants already had one of the best group of receivers. Now it's OBJ, Marshall, Shepard, Engram and hopefully Vereen. Eli can only throw so many passes in a game.
and for those who don't see bias, I have to just wonder...
the trends are crystal clear, for better or worse.
it basically comes down to what floats your boat AS A FAN of the game. and the numbers don't lie.
For us old schoolers, the anemic third down conversions, the even worse rushing third downs and the all time abysmal rushing TDs speak of a sort of 'fancy pants' type of football that kind of belies our history.
I thpught they had a great draft. It helps when you pick early in the round.
I love their first twk picks in Fournette and Robinson. Tbeir defense really does have a ton of talent. They just have to start putting it togetber. So, to help Bortles out with Fournette and bolster the OL with Robinson means they should see an improvement in Bortles. They also have some talent at WR. They added a FB in round 7 too.
Then they drafted Dede Westbrook at WR in the 4th. I like his game. They really bolstered that offense in this draft.
In defense they added DE Dwyane Smoot in the 3rd, LB Blair Brown in the 5th, and CB Jaken Myrick in the 7th. I don't know much about these players though.
I love the spot Jax is in right now. Stability in the front office and a lot of good young talent. Long game approach. Decent qb with upside but one who has to prove he can win. If he fails this year you go out and take a kid in a loaded qb draft next year.
I'd be excited and sort of calm if I was a jaguar fan. They are in good shape. And fournette is going to help them right away.
that so many still fail to grasp what the draft is for, but I am ...
This.
And the most frustrating part is that you can tell them until you are blue I'm the face and they still won't get it, and we will still hear the same nonsense next year.
Ben Macadoo and many others, underestimating what a unique talent Aaron Rodgers was, covering up for Green Bays less than perfect approach to football, by being able to roll out in either direction and rip perfect long passes at will across his own body.
Rodgers is almost unanimously regarded as the best QB in the NFC. Your post makes zero sense
the shematics he is accustomed to with regards to pocket protection and run/pass integration due to having had Aaron Rodgers who cures all ills schematically.
Possibly....as one of many inquiries into a fairly mindless integration of run/pass into line effectiveness last season.
not as a clear answer, but a supposition.
--------
as always, don't conflate your lack of comprehension with lack of comprehensibilITY
Some of the same people, were claiming Gettleman was the real guy behind success, when the Panthers went to the Super Bowl, even though Gettleman had done little to that team. then you changed your tune when you saw how shitty he was handling the Norman situation and failure to get Newton any help on offense. And doing a terrible job fixing their secondary.
He's widely respected around the league from reports I've read..If he was canned, he'd be hired in a NY moment..
To me, he's one of the top GMs in the league. They all make mistakes and will continue to do so..Ozzie Newsome, the so-called standard to be emulated has had his shit years areas of neglect..
Some of the same people, were claiming Gettleman was the real guy behind success, when the Panthers went to the Super Bowl, even though Gettleman had done little to that team. then you changed your tune when you saw how shitty he was handling the Norman situation and failure to get Newton any help on offense. And doing a terrible job fixing their secondary.
And don't forget failure to upgrade the offensive line.
was a large factor in the giants success along the DL since he left they have had bromley and owa,and some free agents vs the assembly line of DL talent that yielded them jpp,osi,tuck,kiwi etc not all on him but they definately havent been as good since he left at picking DL
ziggy ansa and other raw lower league players probably dont get drafted that high before the league saw what the giants did and copied it too they also saw what a good passrush can cover up on your backend so many teams targeted the CB and LB spots the giants showed you can get be with less than superstar talent in those areas if you can bring pressure without blitzing too much
chicago,baltimore and pats all consistently target the same types and skillsets the giants do,john fox is the reason in chicago,bill was an ex-giant DC and baltimore uses a similar draft type they do as well. thou baltimore has spent more picks at LB than the giants but they havent had a good secondry since they lost reed and never managed to effectively replace thier CB's that made the 2000 team so hard to beat either
Doesn't really register with the Reese haters. Nope he just spent money that any fool could have spent. Never mind the great run that proceeded the bad stretch from 2013-2015 or how inevitable the bad stretch truly was. Nope. Reese haters don't see the good years they only see the bad and the bad is 100% attributable to Reese and only Reese. He's lucky when he wins and soley to blame when the giants lose.
but Jerry sees 1980s cute and fancy Rams air ball.
its a miss match
What the hell are you talking about. The giants won two Super Bowls with a smashing relentless defensive attack and a great running game one year, gutty effective running game the next. In 2008 and 2010 the running game was dominant. That was under Reese.
Can we let the ink dry on this latest chapter of NYG football before we condemn Reese for being too fancy? What if the giants win another 11 games this season and find success in January?
Yes, stupid shortsighted ownership will fire people too soon rather than maintain stability and cohesion. But you would have fired Reese. And you'd be a fool too.
But I can't help thinking that bad personnel decisions by the team were the biggest contributer to his firing. To the extent Reese was responsible for those decisions, he managed to get somebody else fired for his own mistakes.
But I can't help thinking that bad personnel decisions by the team were the biggest contributer to his firing. To the extent Reese was responsible for those decisions, he managed to get somebody else fired for his own mistakes.
The end of TC's reign was cursed by three years of leading the league injuries. That in turn led to shortened careers and resources spent treading water.
If you want to blame someone, go ahead. Bad luck played the biggest role I think.
he was the disciplined coach they needed to turn them around after several penalty strewn disastrous seasons before him but since macadoo came in the injury situation had improved it was crazy the decimation that happened annually could be an aberration of luck good versus bad i hope they can keep as healthy this season as they did last
but i will say coughlin would have had them better prepared to play against the packers than they were that night the offence was awful and the defence folded after initially stone walling the packers for almost the whole first half
cruz was a shadow of his former self and they didnt have a move TE to break the tampa 2 zone that they stuggled with all year,in a rookie year at head coach he otherwise did a solid job,he was far better than coughlin at game management he won games that coughlin allowed to get away from him the year before in the final minute(s) when they had the lead
he was the disciplined coach they needed to turn them around after several penalty strewn disastrous seasons before him
There weren't "several penalty strewn disastrous seasons before him"--the Giants went to the playoffs in 2002 and the Super Bowl in 2000. And Coughlin's teams had quite a few penalty prone and undisciplined stretches. Quite a few! There is nothing you can accuse Fassel's teams of that can't also be said of Coughlin's teams other than Fassel had far less talent to work with. But two Super Bowl wins make him Teflon Tom is some people's eyes.
p.s.--Other than 2003, when he was pulling street free agents off of high school teams to fill out the grossly undermanned roster that Accorsi gave him (talk about a disastrous off-season between 2002 and 2003!), Fassel's teams always finished strong. He owned the month of December. Contrast that with Coughlin, whose teams were known for their second half collapses.
that started to bite late in the year with tom,i didnt like accorsi drafts at all one pick that sticks out was rodrick babers a dwarf CB with poor tackling and not enough speed didnt even make the team his draft year,jeff hatch,quincy monk plus others i managed to blot from memory
anyone around for the accorsi drafts era will appreciate the reese drafts so much more
mediocre when he cobbled together the most talent-depleted defense in NFL history and then needed $200M to fix it. That is SHIT performance by a GM.
Shit post is more like it. So when a gm spends money we don't give him any credit? And what's the thresh-hold? How much money spent deems a gm shit in your world? Crap post.
he was the disciplined coach they needed to turn them around after several penalty strewn disastrous seasons before him
There weren't "several penalty strewn disastrous seasons before him"--the Giants went to the playoffs in 2002 and the Super Bowl in 2000. And Coughlin's teams had quite a few penalty prone and undisciplined stretches. Quite a few! There is nothing you can accuse Fassel's teams of that can't also be said of Coughlin's teams other than Fassel had far less talent to work with. But two Super Bowl wins make him Teflon Tom is some people's eyes.
p.s.--Other than 2003, when he was pulling street free agents off of high school teams to fill out the grossly undermanned roster that Accorsi gave him (talk about a disastrous off-season between 2002 and 2003!), Fassel's teams always finished strong. He owned the month of December. Contrast that with Coughlin, whose teams were known for their second half collapses.
You're kidding me right?
RE: Some of you are so ridiculous with your Reese hate
Some of the same people, were claiming Gettleman was the real guy behind success, when the Panthers went to the Super Bowl, even though Gettleman had done little to that team. then you changed your tune when you saw how shitty he was handling the Norman situation and failure to get Newton any help on offense. And doing a terrible job fixing their secondary.
He gets the same type of treatment that #44 did, getting blamed for everything under the sun, and some people seem to dislike him much more than they should a guy who helped architect 2 Lombardi's.
was a large factor in the giants success along the DL since he left they have had bromley and owa,and some free agents vs the assembly line of DL talent that yielded them jpp,osi,tuck,kiwi etc not all on him but they definately havent been as good since he left at picking DL
ziggy ansa and other raw lower league players probably dont get drafted that high before the league saw what the giants did and copied it too they also saw what a good passrush can cover up on your backend so many teams targeted the CB and LB spots the giants showed you can get be with less than superstar talent in those areas if you can bring pressure without blitzing too much
chicago,baltimore and pats all consistently target the same types and skillsets the giants do,john fox is the reason in chicago,bill was an ex-giant DC and baltimore uses a similar draft type they do as well. thou baltimore has spent more picks at LB than the giants but they havent had a good secondry since they lost reed and never managed to effectively replace thier CB's that made the 2000 team so hard to beat either
Would you go as far to say that Gentleman was the driving force behind Reese's success? I think that's what some were trying to get at. IMO it's pretty disrespectful talk.
he was the disciplined coach they needed to turn them around after several penalty strewn disastrous seasons before him
There weren't "several penalty strewn disastrous seasons before him"--the Giants went to the playoffs in 2002 and the Super Bowl in 2000. And Coughlin's teams had quite a few penalty prone and undisciplined stretches. Quite a few! There is nothing you can accuse Fassel's teams of that can't also be said of Coughlin's teams other than Fassel had far less talent to work with. But two Super Bowl wins make him Teflon Tom is some people's eyes.
p.s.--Other than 2003, when he was pulling street free agents off of high school teams to fill out the grossly undermanned roster that Accorsi gave him (talk about a disastrous off-season between 2002 and 2003!), Fassel's teams always finished strong. He owned the month of December. Contrast that with Coughlin, whose teams were known for their second half collapses.
You're kidding me right?
You want to talk OL, in 2003formerly undrafted Ian Allen started 11 games, formerly undrafted Chris Bober started 16 games, rookie 5th rounder Dave Diehl started 16 games, Jeff Hatch started 4 games, undrafted rookie Wayne Lucier started 11 games, Luke Petitgout started 10 games, undrafted rookie Jeff Roehl started 2 games (at left tackle!), Seubert started 6 games (before his catastrophic injury), and rookie TE Visante Shiancoe out of powerhouse Morgan State started 7 games. And Jesse Palmer started 3 games for good measure.
Accorsi set Fassel up for failure and then blamed him for it.
having $200M to spend is a lay-up to success with the myriad of examples of abject failures by other GM's having that much money to spend, posting over and over again only highlights a lot of ignorance.
But that doesn't seem to stop posters from minimizing last year's roster improvement by throwing out the $200M statement. I think they feel this "critical" look is shining well on them when all it is doing is putting a spotlight on their shallow grasp of the salary cap and a worse grasp of the historical failures that have befallen many a GM.
Jerry's performance improved once the team put him on notice.
Jerry earned, and rightfully received, all of the criticism he has received. Now Jerry should receive some praise for his increased performance, and the positive impact on the Giants talent.
However, the talent deficit still remains and much work is still ahead to build the Giants.
Keep the pressure on Jerry to perform, or move on.
I love their first twk picks in Fournette and Robinson. Tbeir defense really does have a ton of talent. They just have to start putting it togetber. So, to help Bortles out with Fournette and bolster the OL with Robinson means they should see an improvement in Bortles. They also have some talent at WR. They added a FB in round 7 too.
Then they drafted Dede Westbrook at WR in the 4th. I like his game. They really bolstered that offense in this draft.
In defense they added DE Dwyane Smoot in the 3rd, LB Blair Brown in the 5th, and CB Jaken Myrick in the 7th. I don't know much about these players though.
Jerry's performance improved once the team put him on notice.
Jerry earned, and rightfully received, all of the criticism he has received. Now Jerry should receive some praise for his increased performance, and the positive impact on the Giants talent.
However, the talent deficit still remains and much work is still ahead to build the Giants.
Keep the pressure on Jerry to perform, or move on.
Listen, as Giant fans, we want our team in the playoffs every year, with a shot at the SB....if we fall short of that goal, then we play the blame game....whether it's the owner, the GM, or players....
Sometimes, things go in cycles, and there are no absolutes, in getting the right player in the draft or free agency....many times it's luck.....but sometimes you can hedge your bet, by doing your homework.....
Heck, we slam each other on BBI, if someone doesn't follow the mainstream of thought, right or wrong....
Reese had a good draft last season.....it was going to be hard to match it....
As far as this one goes, you will get a better idea, at the end of the season, but the draft as a whole, as we all know, can't really be evaluated until those rookie contracts end....
Hell, it's the nature of the beast....it will always be, what have you done for me lately.....Reese will, always be on the hotseat......but that's what he gets paid for.....
That being said, Reese is neither opposed to trading up nor trading down. I imagine he explores both options in every draft and every round, but he--like his mentor, George Young--is conservative by nature. He is not going to give up a 2nd round pick to trade up, so he is limited in just how far he can move up. Which I support because 2nd round picks are pure gold.
On Thursday, there may or may not have been an opportunity to jump ahead of Tampa Bay, thus giving them their choice of Bolles, Howard, and Davis. Three prospects who they reportedly liked, but none of them--in my book--worthy of the added cost of the 3rd round pick. In fact, of the three of them, it's only Bolles who I would take ahead of Engram, and that's assuming the Giants had a 1st round grade on Bolles. Howard reminds me too much of Martellus Bennett. I like Davis well enough, but the tie goes to the healthier history when it comes to him and Engram.
his boss wrote him a $200 million dollar check to fix the defense. Would have been difficult not to have "improved performance" after that spend.
If you don't have a basic understanding of how the NFL salary cap works you probably shouldn't be commenting on a thread like this.
player acquisition is a team effort. During the time we got into trouble (poor FA pickups, drafts, re-signings) the team was TC, Mara, Reese, C Mara, a conglomeration of position coaches, more or less in that order. There was the big three of Mara, TC, and Reese, and I have a suspicion that Chris made a run to be at the big boy table, but washed out. we can argue about the order, but it's pretty obvious there were a lot of chefs cooking up the meal. Reese may very well have been a big part of the problem. but we don't know that. Reese wears the GM hat, but there are plenty of influences. No way in hell he's the sole arbitrator of what goes on, or went on.
Now coach says, paraphrasing, that
''the only stats that matter are the W/L.''
And we typically agree in the -one sense- that one does not want to go into any game saying "we are going to run right X times, pass Y times to the TE" and etc. That would be silly.
Stats do, however, tell a clear story, after the fact, and its a story, right now, for us, does remain O line centric, with regards to last seasons team.
Here are some numbers that should change for Mr. Reese to avoid legit, rational criticism:
First Downs 3rd down conversion .-
29th in the league in total numbers. (very poor)
35% in conversion rate,
only 73 rushing on the entire year,
with a whopping 190 by pass (from 3rd, i.e. very unbalanced and not typically a playoff type ratio in the NFCE) .
4th downs its 9 rush and 19 pass for 47% (indicates high risk high reward)
now, the new WRS and TE help, but how do you jive 'pass quickly to avoid the rush technique' with 'pass far down the seam' timing wise? What type of run plays are we going to use to avoid the pushing back of Pugh and Rich on the inside?
Here are last years overall rushing numbers:
NY Giants
398 attempts
1412 total
3.5 average
25 longest
6TDs by rush total (an abysmal stat)
88yards per game average
That being said, Reese is neither opposed to trading up nor trading down. I imagine he explores both options in every draft and every round, but he--like his mentor, George Young--is conservative by nature. He is not going to give up a 2nd round pick to trade up, so he is limited in just how far he can move up. Which I support because 2nd round picks are pure gold.
On Thursday, there may or may not have been an opportunity to jump ahead of Tampa Bay, thus giving them their choice of Bolles, Howard, and Davis. Three prospects who they reportedly liked, but none of them--in my book--worthy of the added cost of the 3rd round pick. In fact, of the three of them, it's only Bolles who I would take ahead of Engram, and that's assuming the Giants had a 1st round grade on Bolles. Howard reminds me too much of Martellus Bennett. I like Davis well enough, but the tie goes to the healthier history when it comes to him and Engram.
Reese and George barely overlapped. If he had a mentor it was Ernie.
Jerry's performance improved once the team put him on notice.
Jerry earned, and rightfully received, all of the criticism he has received. Now Jerry should receive some praise for his increased performance, and the positive impact on the Giants talent.
However, the talent deficit still remains and much work is still ahead to build the Giants.
Keep the pressure on Jerry to perform, or move on.
The 2008 draft was pretty good. It's the 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, and I would even say the 2013 draft that set this roster back.
i liked this draft webb and all,they finally got eli the move TE that made cousins look good,with engram in the same role and i believe that pick was something macadoo lobbied for the scheme he brought over they needed that TE to make it work
they got another very good DT to replace hankins day1 in the second round that wasn't a given. he has upside to even be an upgrade over hankins this pick was vital to stuff the rush up the middle escpecially vs dallas
i firmly believe they would have drafted garcia in the 3rd round had pats not jumped ahead of them. when that happened jerry followed his board. webb was listed by many as a late first early second round pick and slid to the bottom of the 3rd this was a true bpa pick after thier target was snatched in my view
i dont like the pick they could have got a very good OL,CB a better DL there but that was short term need,eli is clearly in decline. i remember the struggle to find a QB years after simms with a succession of dud QB's like dave brown and clearly people in the organisation do too
the kid is very athletic 6'5" and can sling the ball deep,he doesnt need to start. its the perfect situation for him,he is said to smart and hard working,given a couple of years learning behind eli and learning how to read defences and work on his progressions they have a chance to do a brett farve to rogers type hand over in a few years
im not saying he will have that type of success but given the recent price for even a small move up where QB's are concerned and the historically poor performance of past 3rd round picks i commend the guts it took to make that pick and try to set them up down the road it works he will be hailed for this pick in a few years,if not its another 3rd round bust to the list
i would prefer this approach over what chicago and cleveland did ,trubisky started 13 games there isnt enough tape to scout him properly and to give up multiple picks for that ontop of your first rounder is utter stupidity when they could have stood pat and drafted him anyway in all likelihood. there were also no other QB off the board there either,then cleveland who took kizer even thou they themselves didnt rate him enough. its why they could be picking at the top of the draft for many more years to come inspite of the talent they have elsewhere and keep adding to
70 total yards
4.1 average
0 TDs rushing
2 QB hits
4 Sacks
looks like 3 total first downs if I see the chart correctly, rushing
What team builds from The LB on defense?
It damn sure has t been The Giants since George Young died.
Reese has been running this team behind the scenes since the early 2000's.
So every version of this team you've seen in the last 17 plus years has his DNA mixed in.
The thing is,Reese builds from both lines up.
It's just the fact He picked a LT who hasn't panned out yet.
Everyone keeps on saying we need OLine help,but in the last 5 years we have drafted Pugh,Richburg,Flowers,Hart,signed Schwartz (who stayed hurt) Released Betty (he was supposed to start until Flowers was ready)
So it's not as if Reese hasn't been actively looking to fix the line.
It's the fact the moves he made have been a mixed bag of results.
'15 100 (18th)
'16 88 (29th)
'17 ??
very obviously, team that cannot run tend to risk taking more sacks or at very least risk having more incompletions on conversions as the QB avoids the situation
This would be a stat that's harder to find: Incomplete passes (not INTS) on 3rd down conversion attempts .
Which obviously typically leads to punts. Here, you have a savvy veteran QB, under duress from a combination of weak line play coupled with an overabundance of non play action passing type passes (simple pass plays from an OL pass protection perspective) who is experienced enough to dump the ball as opposed to turning it over.
Now, not saying that they cannot turn a sows ear into a purse, but, the how of it is not apparent with the pieces being a bit unusual
Plenty of nuance and knowledge in pass patterns, routes, savvy and complexity as needed. Check.
Absolute lack of those qualities in the design of line play in. support. of. those passes. You have very little run game, ergo very little legit or functional play action.
Even, the pre-snap attitude or expectations within a DL you are facing (those that come with a legit run game) even when in the absence of play action, being missing.
Weather its lack of attention to the relationship between run and pass when it comes to outcomes of line play and individual linesmens progression as players by staff, or weather its the staffs lack of faith in the current OL roster to get additional things done, we cannot tell from afar.
I love their first twk picks in Fournette and Robinson. Tbeir defense really does have a ton of talent. They just have to start putting it togetber. So, to help Bortles out with Fournette and bolster the OL with Robinson means they should see an improvement in Bortles. They also have some talent at WR. They added a FB in round 7 too.
Then they drafted Dede Westbrook at WR in the 4th. I like his game. They really bolstered that offense in this draft.
In defense they added DE Dwyane Smoot in the 3rd, LB Blair Brown in the 5th, and CB Jaken Myrick in the 7th. I don't know much about these players though.
I said this team will be a force in the NFL very fast with TC and Marrone.
I still believe he was more at fault for some of those bad teams than Coughlin was but he has also done a great job rebuilding the defense to a championship level and now appears to be finding some of the pieces needed on offense.
I think Reese is fine, lets all hope Mcadoo proves he is up to the task. He is the real unknown not Reese.
Building a defense from linebackers?! Name one 4-3 defense built on defenses that hoisted the Lombardi.
Are we to wait until Eli's wheels fall off before finding a successor? I love Eli, but at some point you have to have a plan for life after him. Webb has the physical skills but he needs a little time; which seems like a good fit. What's funny is that some of the response makes it seem like this pick will kill Eli's confidence. Eli has handled every difficult situation in the most difficult market in all of sports with class and grace. But now he's supposedly shook they drafted a QB in the 3rd round.
Reese and George barely overlapped. If he had a mentor it was Ernie.
;-0
Not yet, he's not.
It's not hating on him to say that if the Giants end up being more of the team they've been since that 2008 team (without any additional highly improbable title runs) for the rest of his time here, he's not going to sniff it.
And no one should "never be" in the NFL or sports in general. He shouldn't be right now.
Reese proved them wrong.
His drafting can be very puzzling. Picking Engram reminds me of picking Wilson. An exciting luxury pick chosen before the offense could block for him.
The Giants already had one of the best group of receivers. Now it's OBJ, Marshall, Shepard, Engram and hopefully Vereen. Eli can only throw so many passes in a game.
the trends are crystal clear, for better or worse.
it basically comes down to what floats your boat AS A FAN of the game. and the numbers don't lie.
For us old schoolers, the anemic third down conversions, the even worse rushing third downs and the all time abysmal rushing TDs speak of a sort of 'fancy pants' type of football that kind of belies our history.
and that's the polite version.
but Jerry sees 1980s cute and fancy Rams air ball.
its a miss match
Ha ha ha! I needed a good laugh this morning.
I love their first twk picks in Fournette and Robinson. Tbeir defense really does have a ton of talent. They just have to start putting it togetber. So, to help Bortles out with Fournette and bolster the OL with Robinson means they should see an improvement in Bortles. They also have some talent at WR. They added a FB in round 7 too.
Then they drafted Dede Westbrook at WR in the 4th. I like his game. They really bolstered that offense in this draft.
In defense they added DE Dwyane Smoot in the 3rd, LB Blair Brown in the 5th, and CB Jaken Myrick in the 7th. I don't know much about these players though.
I love the spot Jax is in right now. Stability in the front office and a lot of good young talent. Long game approach. Decent qb with upside but one who has to prove he can win. If he fails this year you go out and take a kid in a loaded qb draft next year.
I'd be excited and sort of calm if I was a jaguar fan. They are in good shape. And fournette is going to help them right away.
If their old DL holds up they could be a bitch to play again.
This.
And the most frustrating part is that you can tell them until you are blue I'm the face and they still won't get it, and we will still hear the same nonsense next year.
Rodgers is almost unanimously regarded as the best QB in the NFC. Your post makes zero sense
Possibly....as one of many inquiries into a fairly mindless integration of run/pass into line effectiveness last season.
not as a clear answer, but a supposition.
--------
as always, don't conflate your lack of comprehension with lack of comprehensibilITY
You're right, but that's because there are a lot of garbage teams out there that don't know what they're doing and don't have four super bowls.
To me, he's one of the top GMs in the league. They all make mistakes and will continue to do so..Ozzie Newsome, the so-called standard to be emulated has had his shit years areas of neglect..
I'm thankful we have him..
You seem like the type that likes to look at the cover,read the Chapter titles, and skip the book.
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You're right, but that's because there are a lot of garbage teams out there that don't know what they're doing and don't have four super bowls.
You seem like the type that likes to look at the cover,read the Chapter titles, and skip the book.
Well if that's the case, I want to be like him. He's one of the better posters on here, imv
And don't forget failure to upgrade the offensive line.
Good lord.
This is among the most foolish statements I have read on BBI, and that is really saying something.
Good lord.
This is among the most foolish statements I have read on BBI, and that is really saying something.
I hope you don't think your fooling anyone with that username.
Quote:
Good lord.
This is among the most foolish statements I have read on BBI, and that is really saying something.
I hope you don't think your fooling anyone with that username.
Wow.
ziggy ansa and other raw lower league players probably dont get drafted that high before the league saw what the giants did and copied it too they also saw what a good passrush can cover up on your backend so many teams targeted the CB and LB spots the giants showed you can get be with less than superstar talent in those areas if you can bring pressure without blitzing too much
chicago,baltimore and pats all consistently target the same types and skillsets the giants do,john fox is the reason in chicago,bill was an ex-giant DC and baltimore uses a similar draft type they do as well. thou baltimore has spent more picks at LB than the giants but they havent had a good secondry since they lost reed and never managed to effectively replace thier CB's that made the 2000 team so hard to beat either
but Jerry sees 1980s cute and fancy Rams air ball.
its a miss match
What the hell are you talking about. The giants won two Super Bowls with a smashing relentless defensive attack and a great running game one year, gutty effective running game the next. In 2008 and 2010 the running game was dominant. That was under Reese.
Can we let the ink dry on this latest chapter of NYG football before we condemn Reese for being too fancy? What if the giants win another 11 games this season and find success in January?
Yes, stupid shortsighted ownership will fire people too soon rather than maintain stability and cohesion. But you would have fired Reese. And you'd be a fool too.
The end of TC's reign was cursed by three years of leading the league injuries. That in turn led to shortened careers and resources spent treading water.
If you want to blame someone, go ahead. Bad luck played the biggest role I think.
but i will say coughlin would have had them better prepared to play against the packers than they were that night the offence was awful and the defence folded after initially stone walling the packers for almost the whole first half
cruz was a shadow of his former self and they didnt have a move TE to break the tampa 2 zone that they stuggled with all year,in a rookie year at head coach he otherwise did a solid job,he was far better than coughlin at game management he won games that coughlin allowed to get away from him the year before in the final minute(s) when they had the lead
p.s.--Other than 2003, when he was pulling street free agents off of high school teams to fill out the grossly undermanned roster that Accorsi gave him (talk about a disastrous off-season between 2002 and 2003!), Fassel's teams always finished strong. He owned the month of December. Contrast that with Coughlin, whose teams were known for their second half collapses.
What you fail to comprehend is that there was a REASON he had $200. As GM JR managed his way to having $200MM available.
Great job by our top-5 general manager.
anyone around for the accorsi drafts era will appreciate the reese drafts so much more
Shit post is more like it. So when a gm spends money we don't give him any credit? And what's the thresh-hold? How much money spent deems a gm shit in your world? Crap post.
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he was the disciplined coach they needed to turn them around after several penalty strewn disastrous seasons before him
There weren't "several penalty strewn disastrous seasons before him"--the Giants went to the playoffs in 2002 and the Super Bowl in 2000. And Coughlin's teams had quite a few penalty prone and undisciplined stretches. Quite a few! There is nothing you can accuse Fassel's teams of that can't also be said of Coughlin's teams other than Fassel had far less talent to work with. But two Super Bowl wins make him Teflon Tom is some people's eyes.
p.s.--Other than 2003, when he was pulling street free agents off of high school teams to fill out the grossly undermanned roster that Accorsi gave him (talk about a disastrous off-season between 2002 and 2003!), Fassel's teams always finished strong. He owned the month of December. Contrast that with Coughlin, whose teams were known for their second half collapses.
You're kidding me right?
He gets the same type of treatment that #44 did, getting blamed for everything under the sun, and some people seem to dislike him much more than they should a guy who helped architect 2 Lombardi's.
ziggy ansa and other raw lower league players probably dont get drafted that high before the league saw what the giants did and copied it too they also saw what a good passrush can cover up on your backend so many teams targeted the CB and LB spots the giants showed you can get be with less than superstar talent in those areas if you can bring pressure without blitzing too much
chicago,baltimore and pats all consistently target the same types and skillsets the giants do,john fox is the reason in chicago,bill was an ex-giant DC and baltimore uses a similar draft type they do as well. thou baltimore has spent more picks at LB than the giants but they havent had a good secondry since they lost reed and never managed to effectively replace thier CB's that made the 2000 team so hard to beat either
Would you go as far to say that Gentleman was the driving force behind Reese's success? I think that's what some were trying to get at. IMO it's pretty disrespectful talk.
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In comment 13455328 msh said:
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he was the disciplined coach they needed to turn them around after several penalty strewn disastrous seasons before him
There weren't "several penalty strewn disastrous seasons before him"--the Giants went to the playoffs in 2002 and the Super Bowl in 2000. And Coughlin's teams had quite a few penalty prone and undisciplined stretches. Quite a few! There is nothing you can accuse Fassel's teams of that can't also be said of Coughlin's teams other than Fassel had far less talent to work with. But two Super Bowl wins make him Teflon Tom is some people's eyes.
p.s.--Other than 2003, when he was pulling street free agents off of high school teams to fill out the grossly undermanned roster that Accorsi gave him (talk about a disastrous off-season between 2002 and 2003!), Fassel's teams always finished strong. He owned the month of December. Contrast that with Coughlin, whose teams were known for their second half collapses.
You're kidding me right?
Accorsi set Fassel up for failure and then blamed him for it.
2008-2010 were fine. 2013 was meh. 2011 and 2012, definitely eek.
But that doesn't seem to stop posters from minimizing last year's roster improvement by throwing out the $200M statement. I think they feel this "critical" look is shining well on them when all it is doing is putting a spotlight on their shallow grasp of the salary cap and a worse grasp of the historical failures that have befallen many a GM.