To me - team's obvious Achilles heal

Almost every unit on every team in the league is one injury from disaster. In fact, most much closed to a disaster than the Giants' CBs would be.

I wanted another CB as well but to say the they "thinned out" the draft by replacing Hankins is terrible analysis. That was a great pick for an obvious need at a critical position. (AKA: "Home Run")

But we do have concerns about depth. We are going to need to have some surprise players step up. If we suffer an injury at corner then our slot position might be the most affected. I never understand when people downgrade a slot corner. That has become ond of the most important positions on the field. Now, if Thompson is fully healthy and Adams improves maybe we go with a big nickel D if we need.

During Spags' first go round here we played a ton of zone coverage so guys like DeLoach, Wilson, and the other safefy whose name escapes me were able to succeed. With our current DBs we seems to be playing more man coverage. Therefore, when we suffered an injury to DRC the next DB in couldn't do that so that changes the whole game plan. So, Spags tried to cover up that player by playing more zone but that makes Jenkins less effective.

So, long story short, we are not weak in the secondary by any means but if we want to have a seamless transition due to injury then we need a player to be able to do what DRC can do otherwise the domino effect could derail our season.

spike said:

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sign him as our 4th CB

Excellent plan, except for the $7MM the Bears guaranteed him this year.

With the insane amount of DBs drafted there will probably be some good players released that we can pick up at both S and CB. I am not stressing it but it is a concern.

was saying the Giants "starting 3" CB's were an Achilles heel, but it's the depth after the starting 3 that is weak, and as others have mentioned that depth has been exposed.

I don't care if every team is weak after an injury to a starter, if you have an opportunity to strengthen your weaknesses you do it.

I just don't think not drafting a CB seals the fate of that unit, plenty of free agent options to fortify CB depth. and the Giants absolutely should be thinking that way IMO.

then every other team in the NFL does. Such a weird thread.

for corners, but that doesn't mean we needed to take one. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

Draft was weak on CBs and OL. Had to do what we had to do.

Webb is a stud from Cal.

Holy smokes
We have 3 top corners
The market will be flooded with corners when these new guys drafted this
Week unseat higher paid veterans - we will
Be waiting for one - my god -
Rosters are about balance - there are 31 other teams - probably 25 of them
Would trade their defensive backs for ours in one minute

you have a shitload of question marks:

Michael Hunter
Valentino Blake
Donte Deayon
Nigel Tribune

Am I missing anyone? At this point Donte Deayon is probably the backup slot guy and DRC gives flexibility to Jenkins or Apple getting banged up, but yeah, the Giants would do well to add a vet to that group.

In comment 13454667 UConn4523 said:

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then every other team in the NFL does. Such a weird thread.

You can say that but it is still a concern. How many injuries did GB suffer? They were way more decimated than us. How were they able to overcome all their injuries and we could not overcome one? Fans, myself included, always point to that injury as a possible turning point to say we could have won. Well, what if they didn't have all of their injuries? We lost one player and the wheels fell off. It is a valid topic.

In comment 13454679 LCtheINTMachine said:

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Draft was weak on CBs and OL. Had to do what we had to do. Webb is a stud from Cal.

Are you kidding? The deepest position in this draft was CB and it was one of the best CB classes in a long time.

In comment 13454685 robbieballs2003 said:

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In comment 13454667 UConn4523 said: Quote: then every other team in the NFL does. Such a weird thread. You can say that but it is still a concern. How many injuries did GB suffer? They were way more decimated than us. How were they able to overcome all their injuries and we could not overcome one? Fans, myself included, always point to that injury as a possible turning point to say we could have won. Well, what if they didn't have all of their injuries? We lost one player and the wheels fell off. It is a valid topic.

Better QB play, Aaron Rodgers lifted them into the playoffs.

In comment 13454682 giantgiantfan said:

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you have a shitload of question marks: Michael Hunter Valentino Blake Donte Deayon Nigel Tribune Am I missing anyone? At this point, Donte Deayon is probably the backup slot guy and DRC gives flexibility to Jenkins or Apple getting banged up, but yeah, the Giants would do well to add a vet to that group.

Deayon and Blake are very undersized and I don't know if they are more than PS guys.
Positive is there are a lot of under 30 CB in FA right now to fill that 4 & 5 corner.

Sam Shields
Alterraun Verner
Brandon Flowers
Tramaine Brock

Plus there will be a lot of cuts coming over the next couple of months.
I think it's smarter to have a Vet at the 4th and 5th spot coming in for injuries than a rookie that is still learning the game and walking on the field for his first NFL game.

In comment 13454692 larryflower37 said:

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In comment 13454682 giantgiantfan said: Quote: you have a shitload of question marks: Michael Hunter Valentino Blake Donte Deayon Nigel Tribune Am I missing anyone? At this point, Donte Deayon is probably the backup slot guy and DRC gives flexibility to Jenkins or Apple getting banged up, but yeah, the Giants would do well to add a vet to that group. Deayon and Blake are very undersized and I don't know if they are more than PS guys. Positive is there are a lot of under 30 CB in FA right now to fill that 4 & 5 corner. Sam Shields Alterraun Verner Brandon Flowers Tramaine Brock Plus there will be a lot of cuts coming over the next couple of months. I think it's smarter to have a Vet at the 4th and 5th spot coming in for injuries than a rookie that is still learning the game and walking on the field for his first NFL game.

While there are some nice names on that list I am pretty sure Verner and Flowers are more cover 2 guys. Our scheme would have to change with them on the field. We need a guy that is going to allow us to not hide his deficiencies with a scheme that takes away the strengths of our other players.

In comment 13454692 larryflower37 said:

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In comment 13454682 giantgiantfan said: Quote: you have a shitload of question marks: Michael Hunter Valentino Blake Donte Deayon Nigel Tribune Am I missing anyone? At this point, Donte Deayon is probably the backup slot guy and DRC gives flexibility to Jenkins or Apple getting banged up, but yeah, the Giants would do well to add a vet to that group. Deayon and Blake are very undersized and I don't know if they are more than PS guys. Positive is there are a lot of under 30 CB in FA right now to fill that 4 & 5 corner. Sam Shields Alterraun Verner Brandon Flowers Tramaine Brock Plus there will be a lot of cuts coming over the next couple of months. I think it's smarter to have a Vet at the 4th and 5th spot coming in for injuries than a rookie that is still learning the game and walking on the field for his first NFL game.

Agreed, but Deayon is a guy I'll be watching in preseason in the slot. I know he's undersized, but I think he can play.

In comment 13454685 robbieballs2003 said:

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In comment 13454667 UConn4523 said: Quote: then every other team in the NFL does. Such a weird thread. You can say that but it is still a concern. How many injuries did GB suffer? They were way more decimated than us. How were they able to overcome all their injuries and we could not overcome one? Fans, myself included, always point to that injury as a possible turning point to say we could have won. Well, what if they didn't have all of their injuries? We lost one player and the wheels fell off. It is a valid topic.

THan isn't everything a concern then?

What about if JPP or Vernon go down, or Eli, or Beckham. Injuries happen and you try to mitigate their impact as much as possible but you can't always be 4 or 5 deep with starting level talent at premier positions. I'd love a 4th CB, I even advocated it being a possibility on Day 1, but it isn't our Achilles heel. If we have 2 injuries to our secondary that's just bad, shitty luck.

I'm more worried about the Oline then the CB position that for sure..

There is no starter anywhere that's "proven immune", whatever that means.

...just because he comes from a strong draft class. There are plenty of first round picks that struggle and the bust rate for first round picks at CB is pretty high.

Every draft pick is a roll of the dice. It's always easy after the fact to say so and so was a sure thing or so and so is a safe pick or so and so is a plug and play this or that. But it doesn't automatically turn out that way. It isn't just the boom or bust types that bust, sometimes it's the Trent Richardson's of the world. And speaking of RB's, that's another position with a high bust rate where it's easy to say everybody knew so and so would be a stud after the fact.

It's all a crap shoot. No crime in betting the hard way every now and again if only for the excitement that the possibilities bring....
"Why don't you have some fun...FUN FUN!" - ( New Window )

and those who read my posts know I am neither a constant supporter or detractor.

I worry about CB because the iniative rests with the offense. CBs can and will be attacked and although I find Spagnola fine when everything is in place, he is mediocre, at best, when compared to a Belichick in covering up weaknesses.

Webb is all based on a scouting evaluation. If he is develops within statistical probabilities, this was a stupid pick. If he is, the hidden from most scouts, second coming, this was a pick of genius.

Tomlinson is more problematic to me. I believed Hankins was solid, nothing more and I would not have re-signed him at what he went for. We drafted an immoveable object type to both replace him and back up DH. I think in a passing League, this is a misallocation of scarce resources. Tying up the money in DH and the high pick in DT, creates an early down situation which opposing coaches with brains will just ignore. Why beat your head against the wall running up the gut when you can pass, and due to personnel of the Giants, your QB will have all day to wait for someone to break open.

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which can potentially take this DL from being very good to dominant? Wouldn't that matter in a passing league where we just gave two huge contracts to guys we want sacking the QB?

How is shutting down Elliot and teeing off on Prescott a bad thing?

this year, I would expect some decent vets to shake loose at some point this preseason.

In comment 13454726 Bob in Newburgh said:

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and those who read my posts know I am neither a constant supporter or detractor. I worry about CB because the iniative rests with the offense. CBs can and will be attacked and although I find Spagnola fine when everything is in place, he is mediocre, at best, when compared to a Belichick in covering up weaknesses. Webb is all based on a scouting evaluation. If he is develops within statistical probabilities, this was a stupid pick. If he is, the hidden from most scouts, second coming, this was a pick of genius. Tomlinson is more problematic to me. I believed Hankins was solid, nothing more and I would not have re-signed him at what he went for. We drafted an immoveable object type to both replace him and back up DH. I think in a passing League, this is a misallocation of scarce resources. Tying up the money in DH and the high pick in DT, creates an early down situation which opposing coaches with brains will just ignore. Why beat your head against the wall running up the gut when you can pass, and due to personnel of the Giants, your QB will have all day to wait for someone to break open.

2 space eating DT like we now have puts a ton of pressure on the center and 2 guards. This frees up Vernon and JPP to have single on the outside. Also, Tomlinson and Snacks are going to push the line back taking away the ability to step into throws.
They might not have 10 sacks each but they will force O-Lines to scheme differently when facing us.
Everything I have read Tomlinson ate up double teams in college, so does Snacks. That's a dangerous combo with our speed rushers

or two before the season starts.

Every down of every game. JPP almost never does that and his surgery was much more serious and complicated than initially thought.

Same at CB. DRC is always little dinged up and that usually doesn't improve with age.

argument that Rasul Douglas or Jourdan Lewis would've been more useful short term picks than Webb in the 3rd. and since we are built to contend RIGHT NOW, the short term matters a lot

But if Webb turns out to be Eli's successor, nobody will give a sh#t

In comment 13454726 Bob in Newburgh said:

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Tomlinson is more problematic to me. I believed Hankins was solid, nothing more and I would not have re-signed him at what he went for. We drafted an immoveable object type to both replace him and back up DH. I think in a passing League, this is a misallocation of scarce resources. Tying up the money in DH and the high pick in DT, creates an early down situation which opposing coaches with brains will just ignore. Why beat your head against the wall running up the gut when you can pass, and due to personnel of the Giants, your QB will have all day to wait for someone to break open.

This just makes no sense. It's the ability to shut down a team's running game that put the defense in to position to put the personnel and schemes on the field to defend the pass. Making teams one dimensional is the goal of every defense in the league but the Giants actually having the players to do that is a "misallocation of scarce resources." Yikes! And your counter is for teams to abandon the run all together. That's just what the Giants want. And how with DE's like Vernon and JPP (and DTs that can push the pocket) will QBs "have all day."

No, Bob. The Tomlinson pick was a great pick to fill an obvious need for a critical position.

In comment 13454839 Victor in CT said:

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Every down of every game. JPP almost never does that and his surgery was much more serious and complicated than initially thought. Same at CB. DRC is always little dinged up and that usually doesn't improve with age.

How is this true? They have invested in a number of DEs to spell those two. Okwara, OO, Wynn and this years #5 pick Moss. You make it sound like if you don't have 3 pro bowl DEs you one short. We have as much depth and talent at DE as any team in the league.

And we drafted Apple last year just to put DRC in a position that he wouldn't have to play every snap (which he didn't)

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In comment 13454839 Victor in CT said:

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Every down of every game. JPP almost never does that and his surgery was much more serious and complicated than initially thought. Same at CB. DRC is always little dinged up and that usually doesn't improve with age.

I agree it's an area of concern, they have to get much more from OO and Okwara.

Can any of the folks who think we are BUILT to win right now tell me how that is true considering the state of our OL and running game and lack of a very good FG Kicker?

and either a rookie or a gamble as a back up QB?

I get that we "might" win now

But how are we "built" to win now?

imho, I like last years draft and FA a lot and dont have a lot to complain about with this years draft and FA so far...but we have years of bad OL luck and decisions and failures yet to overcome to get to average for a playoff winning team. Again, imho. Hopefully, we get improvement; but thats luck not by dint of being "built to win now"

Given our much tougher schedule id say our OL and our offensive coaching is not yet "built"

other than the Patriots.

The Giants are as built to win now as any of the playoff teams from last year. They're returning a great defense and hop to get better with health and some key additions on offense.

Who's the clear cut team out there that's way ahead of the field?

Expected them to get that in the draft, and they didn't, which is part of the reason why I think using a 3rd on a project QB who has a low probability of working out was mega-stupid. You can get those guys off the street.

Also agree that the OL is a definite weak point and hoped that it would be addressed before the 3rd day. I do like the guy they got, but they could have and should have done better. Actually they never should have been in this situation to start with, but that goes all the way back to about 2011.

Both of these situations are further reflections on my feeling that although Reese has an above average ability to evaluate talent, he has no idea how to construct a championship football team.

We have a dominating defense, and that's a pretty important piece.

I think and hope that our offense will be much more productive with the additions of two weapons in Marshall and Engram, with Perkins (as opposed to the slow footed Jennings) as lead RB, and with a lot more beef on the OL with the addition of Fluker.

I like the fact that we'll be a lot more diverse on offense...no more 11 personnel for 95% of our plays. Engram moving into the slot, Ellison at FB, 4 wide formations, two-TE formations, two-TE formations that morph. I think the offensive weapons we have now will allow McAdoo to create a diverse offense similar to GB's.

In comment 13454726 Bob in Newburgh said:

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and those who read my posts know I am neither a constant supporter or detractor. I worry about CB because the iniative rests with the offense. CBs can and will be attacked and although I find Spagnola fine when everything is in place, he is mediocre, at best, when compared to a Belichick in covering up weaknesses. Webb is all based on a scouting evaluation. If he is develops within statistical probabilities, this was a stupid pick. If he is, the hidden from most scouts, second coming, this was a pick of genius. Tomlinson is more problematic to me. I believed Hankins was solid, nothing more and I would not have re-signed him at what he went for. We drafted an immoveable object type to both replace him and back up DH. I think in a passing League, this is a misallocation of scarce resources. Tying up the money in DH and the high pick in DT, creates an early down situation which opposing coaches with brains will just ignore. Why beat your head against the wall running up the gut when you can pass, and due to personnel of the Giants, your QB will have all day to wait for someone to break open.

Huh? Teams still want to run the ball. Dallas is a perfect example. Shutting Zeke down early and often makes them one dimensional. With our secondary that means shut down city. Last season is proof positive of that.
We were able to sweep Dallas because we neutralized the strength of the team...their offensive line.
We simply could not afford a drop off in play on 1st and second down. And that's why drafting Hankins replacement was important.

Webb is what I was thinking when it happened live. Today, I'm undecided.

In comment 13454881 BillT said:

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In comment 13454839 Victor in CT said: Quote: It Every down of every game. JPP almost never does that and his surgery was much more serious and complicated than initially thought. Same at CB. DRC is always little dinged up and that usually doesn't improve with age. How is this true? They have invested in a number of DEs to spell those two. Okwara, OO, Wynn and this years #5 pick Moss. You make it sound like if you don't have 3 pro bowl DEs you one short. We have as much depth and talent at DE as any team in the league. And we drafted Apple last year just to put DRC in a position that he wouldn't have to play every snap (which he didn't)

Odi has shown ZERO so far. Wynn has shown that he is JAG at best. and you're smart enough to know that you cant could t on a fifth rounder to be an immediate contributor.

What happened when DRC want down against GB in the playoffs?

...you're wrong on two counts. First you can't spell heel in the correct context. Second the obvious Achille's heel of this team is the O-Line. It' not even debatable so don't try.

That's a wrap.

...

the Giants have/had many Achilles heels if that's possible.

I don't see how anyone could watch the playoff game with GB and not feel like CB was an Achilles heel once DRC went out and GB had time to adjust their game plan it was painfully obvious, along with offensive weapons, and pass rush.

may be the sharpest in the NFL. Clearly Aaron Rodgers knew.

I just think a marginal upgrade there is easier to execute than at Offensive Tackle because of the larger volume of players that can step in at CB...

In comment 13455323 Jimmy Googs said:

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may be the sharpest in the NFL. Clearly Aaron Rodgers knew. I just think a marginal upgrade there is easier to execute than at Offensive Tackle because of the larger volume of players that can step in at CB...

I agree with that too and that they didn't draft a CB doesn't bother me. My thoughts are a free agent CB is better suited for what the Giants need anyway.

I'd like to see one of the names I mentioned above, McCourty (depending on price), Shields, Flowers, etc. maybe even Verner who has to be one of the worst FA signings benefits from a change of scenery.

All of them would be better than Hunter, Blake, Deayon more than likely

.

Hey Yat

Tomato, tomaato.

This is the strength of the team. Unless Eli Apple is a bust and I don't think he is.

when you type this kind of horseshit, it sort of invalidates the rest of the rant, no?

Quote:

Tomlinson is more problematic to me. I believed Hankins was solid, nothing more and I would not have re-signed him at what he went for. We drafted an immoveable object type to both replace him and back up DH. I think in a passing League, this is a misallocation of scarce resources. Tying up the money in DH and the high pick in DT, creates an early down situation which opposing coaches with brains will just ignore. Why beat your head against the wall running up the gut when you can pass, and due to personnel of the Giants, your QB will have all day to wait for someone to break open.

Not only are you mischaracterizing Tomlinson, you clearly have little to no undersatnding of the importance and advantage to taking up space on the DL. So space-hogging DT's that can't rush the passer allow the opposing QB's all day to throw? The lack of football knowledge here is astounding, especially when the OP tries to make it seem like he has a good grasp of it.

Why worry about the 4th CB when there are legitimate concerns about both #1 OTs?