There have been a few threads (to say the least) about the Webb pick and what it means for the Giants, and how much of it is related to a more rapid decline in Eli or just the Giants preparing for the future.
One thing is clear, Eli nearing the end of his career. That is going to happen no matter what.
As we've seen from the Giants, the last 2 times they had longer term/successful QBs, they planned their succession via the draft. That was for Phil Simms/ Jeff Hostetler in the early 1990s and Kerry Collins after 2003.
Now, Collins is a different case in that they traded for a Franchise QB in Eli in the draft and everyone knew that he was going to take over. When you team goes 4-12 it's easy to make that call. Warner was a caretaker for half the season and then it was full on Eli.
So let's go back to 1992. A couple of things happened at this time. The Giants brought in a young offensive coach who was supposed to specialize working with QBs (Jim Fassel). After 1991, Hostetler was named the starter, but got hurt during the season and gave the job to Simms. He was turning 31 years old and free agency was on the horizon so the Giants had to hedge with him. Simms meanwhile finished the 1991 season as the starter, but went into 1992 at age 37. So the Giants knew they needed to get a successor ready. They had taken some lukewarm picks in the late 1980s to develop a QB- Craig Kupp (5th in 1990) and Michael Perez (7th in 1988) but nothing came of them.
Then came 1992, they picked Kent Graham in the 8th round out of Ohio State and a couple of months later grabbed Dave Brown with the #1 supplemental. In 1992, Ray Handley actually kept all 4 QBs on the roster (Simms, Hoss, Brown, and Graham). Their theory at the time, going into 1993, they were going to keep one of Simms or Hostetler, the other had to go. And they wanted to keep Graham and Brown as backups to learn behind the veteran winner of the spot. And when the time came, they would know the system and battle out for a starter and backup. Needless to say, neither option turned out well, though to defend Dave Brown, the Giants had collected some of the worst offensive skill position players to work with (a broken down Rodney Hampton, Arthur Marshall, Chris Calloway as a #1, ugh). But while both Brown and Graham went on to actually have semi-lengthy careers, neither panned out for the Giants.
So let's get to 2017. Eli is now the wily veteran nearing the end. They have a reclamation project in Geno Smith on the roster and a career backup in Josh Johnson. Now there are 2 ways to think about this. If the Giants are serious, do they look for Geno to win the job for backup from Johnson and have Webb as the #3, both behind Eli and learn what it takes to play QB in the system. Or... as Dave Te told us, next year's QB crop will rival the 1983 group in terms of depth and talent. Is it out of the realm that even next year the Giants draft one of those QBs with a #1 pick, and they set up their top pick and Webb in a competition to succeed Eli, where they will have their own Brown vs. Graham battle for starter/backup. Teams have always lived and died at the QB spot, so as the most important position on the team, knowing they need to be ready for Eli to leave, the Giants need to focus on finding a solve for a life without Eli. The George Young blueprint was made 25 years ago on how to handle it, and Reese comes from the Young/ Accorsi bloodline. So I wonder if this will be their ultimate plan. If it turns out that the Giants coaches feel they might have something in Webb (or..gasp, Geno!) they can skip the 2018 QB crop. If they are still lukewarm, they can jump back in next year again and draft one high and expect one of them to be ready to replace Eli.
I don't think anything will preclude the Giants from getting what they perceive to be their future franchise at QB next year if their conviction is strong. At worst we wasted a 3rd rounder unlike the Bears who gave up much more for a possible question mark..Imo
I don't think anything will preclude the Giants from getting what they perceive to be their future franchise at QB next year if their conviction is strong. At worst we wasted a 3rd rounder unlike the Bears who gave up much more for a possible question mark..Imo
I agree with this.
Also, if the Giants are in position to take a top QB prospect in round 1 next year they should not hesitate.
Don't think the Giants want to carry 3 QB's and I hope Webb makes that decision an easy one.
But: The really instructive thing about the Kent Graham/Dave Brown/Jesse Palmer years is that they used the equivalent of a first-round pick on a QB they liked and he was pretty much a bust. And the other two guys never amounted to anything, either.
Moral: Finding a QB is hard. It's not a matter of just drafting one guy. (Ask the Chargers, who drafted Leaf and Brees and ended up with Rivers.) It's not even a matter of drafting a guy and having him step in and play well. (Ask Washington and RGII how that went.)
Lots of teams have been unstable at QB. Denver rode Osweiler and Peyton-running-on-fumes to a Lombardi trophy, but Denver's been unstable at QB for a long time. Washington's not happy with Cousins. The Eagles looked like they were set with Foles, now they are committed to Wentz. The Rams spent a fortune on Bradford, now they've got Goff... Meanwhile Bradford had a revival for the Vikes, who thought they had their guy in Bridgewater, but Bridgewater got hurt.
I don't think Ernie Accorsi gets enough credit for getting Eli. No, Eli's not Drew Brees or Tom Brady, and you could argue that Roethlisberger is better, but Eli won two titles and he's been the Giants' unquestioned starter for a long time. He solved the QB problem so thoroughly that (I think) a lot of Giants fans have forgotten how hard it is to find a guy like that, and how unusual it is to have one.
But unless Webb pans out, we might get a painful reminder kind of soon.
If he's not the guy, we get to try again the in 2018/19 draft and see if we can strike gold before Eli retires.
I don't think anything will preclude the Giants from getting what they perceive to be their future franchise at QB next year if their conviction is strong. At worst we wasted a 3rd rounder unlike the Bears who gave up much more for a possible question mark..Imo
Also onboard with this, in fact I'd be very disappointed if the Giants waste a roster spot and cap space on Johnson or Smith. You drafted a backup, make him the backup. If the unthinkable happens, best case scenario you find out he's a gamer, worst case you're in position to draft in a QB heavy draft.
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If the unthinkable happens and Webb has to take over, we'll just have to manage him (Dak Prescott last year) and trust our D will do what we hope they do again this year..
I don't think anything will preclude the Giants from getting what they perceive to be their future franchise at QB next year if their conviction is strong. At worst we wasted a 3rd rounder unlike the Bears who gave up much more for a possible question mark..Imo
I agree with this.
Also, if the Giants are in position to take a top QB prospect in round 1 next year they should not hesitate.
I agree with this too.
You stay true to your board and draft guys you have a good grade on when you have the chance to do so.
I agree. If Webb looks good we are set. If he doesn't we add another and all we've lost is a 3rd.
Unless, you're an adult. Then type any name you want.
Next year they'll have had a year to evaluate Webb to see if he'll eventually be starter material. If not, then they can go after a first round QB and groom Webb as a backup.
I don't think anything will preclude the Giants from getting what they perceive to be their future franchise at QB next year if their conviction is strong. At worst we wasted a 3rd rounder unlike the Bears who gave up much more for a possible question mark..Imo
While this sounds good on paper, what if they need a starting QB for 1-2 weeks due to injury? This could be the difference between playoffs/no playoffs....Division champ or Wild card....or 1st round bye. Are you ready to risk that on a rookie QB? I'm not.
While I agree that Smith may not be good enough to win games for them, at least he has been in a pro system for the past 3 years. I like Webb's potential, but he has been in a spread offense his entire college career and has much to learn.
This to me screams half assed by the front office. They need to commit one way or the other. If they really wanted the QB of the future in this draft they should've done whatever it took to move up and get their guy. If they love the QBs next year they should've traded away picks in this draft to have the ammo for '18.
If they think they have more time with Eli then they should've used all of their picks to improve the roster with guys that have a chance to contribute.
Two. Several. Right.
It sounds like Webb has a long way to go before you want him I'm a game.
Also, let's stop comparing Dak and his situation to other rookie QBs. Dak performed well and deserves a lot of credit. But how well do you think he would have done if he was on the Giants last year with no running game and a shitty OL? (That's what Webb would probably be working with if he had to take over THIS year.)
Absolutely a development-killer to have some has-been get between Webb and the future starting job. Put some level of pressure on this kid to get himself ready from day 1.
Are you guys nuts...
Two. Several. Right.
By your count, 2. Webb, Nassib, Bomar, Woodson had all been drafted under Reese.
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nyg/draft.htm - ( New Window )
Absolutely a development-killer to have some has-been get between Webb and the future starting job. Put some level of pressure on this kid to get himself ready from day 1.
Are you guys nuts...
So you think it would be a "development killer" for Webb to be a #3 for a year, before moving up to #2 the following year and (conceivably) to #1 in his 3rd year?
And all Webb has to do next year to earn the #2 spot is to show up and find the locker room??? (And you think we're nuts?!?!)
The Giants' goal next year is NOT to develop Webb at all costs. It's to give the team the best chance of winning. That means having an experienced #2 as the backup, while Webb watches and learns.
The bears just gave up a ton more than what we invested on Webb to move up one slot, another midround pick next year is a worthy gamble. Drafting and scouting is an inexact science, so give yourself more chances to guess right.
And stop with the conservative bullshit...
And stop with the conservative bullshit...
One man's conservative bullshit is another man's common sense.
"Just get your 3rd RD rookie QB ready to play" behind that OL and with an average (at best) running game.
Yeah it's that simple.
Absolutely a development-killer to have some has-been get between Webb and the future starting job. Put some level of pressure on this kid to get himself ready from day 1.
Are you guys nuts...
A had been? More like a never was.
If history is any indicator, the last time a QB was drafted while Alex Smith was the starter, he also was a bi-racial athletic gun slinger type QB.
Will take over mid 2018 after yet another concussion, lead Chiefs to the Bowl.....
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Get him ready and let's be happy if we don't need him.
And stop with the conservative bullshit...
One man's conservative bullshit is another man's common sense.
"Just get your 3rd RD rookie QB ready to play" behind that OL and with an average (at best) running game.
Yeah it's that simple.
No I know it's not. Wasn't trying to convey that. Saying it makes total sense to be very active here though. There is no one way to develop a QB, but have to agree team is better off getting a good feel on Webb and his capacity for the pro game on a faster versus slower pace. It only gives us more options based on his progress or lack there of.
Said before, Giants shouldn't be saying 2 off-seasons from now "still not sure what we have in Webb"...
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by several you mean ONE. Prior to Webb. One.
Two. Several. Right.
By your count, 2. Webb, Nassib, Bomar, Woodson had all been drafted under Reese. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nyg/draft.htm - ( New Window )
Typical. djm makes an emphatic point to refute another poster, but when he is proven wrong, he doesn't have the decency to admit he was wrong.
I don't think anything will preclude the Giants from getting what they perceive to be their future franchise at QB next year if their conviction is strong. At worst we wasted a 3rd rounder unlike the Bears who gave up much more for a possible question mark..Imo
I have to disagree. Webb is not NFL ready. Geno is cheap, and while it isn't ideal to carry 3 QB's, I think this roster is more flexible than it has been in the past, giving the Giants more room to carry a 3rd QB.
Dak isn't a good comp, as he played in a pro set at Miss St, and has the luxury of a great OL and a very good RB. I don't think the Giants can count on that if Eli goes down. Look, if Eli goes down for a big chunk of the season, we're probably looking at a top 15 draft pick next year. But if he is out for 2-3 games, we need a sub who can win a game or 2. That's why they need a seasoned backup.
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In comment 13456625 djm said:
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by several you mean ONE. Prior to Webb. One.
Two. Several. Right.
By your count, 2. Webb, Nassib, Bomar, Woodson had all been drafted under Reese. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nyg/draft.htm - ( New Window )
Typical. djm makes an emphatic point to refute another poster, but when he is proven wrong, he doesn't have the decency to admit he was wrong.
To be fair, I think his response was to the assertion that the Giants have repeatedly just wiped their ass with a pick of a project QB. Do Woodson and Bomar represent wiping the ass with a pick? Only if anyone drafted after them had any sort of notable career, which I doubt.
If Eli fades/goes down, they need to see what Webb is made of. Geno is not going to "save the day", so not even worth wasting a spot for 3 QBs