in 11 personnel, assuming Rhett Ellison plays, we can't have both Shep and Engram on field at same time. I am sure this has been discussed in threads, but I haven't seen it. What am I missing??
will get snaps over Ellison. Ellison isn't a guy that's playing 100% of the offensive snaps, especially once Engram gets his 'feet wet' and adjusts to the NFL game.
But let's face it...Engram is taller, faster, much more explosive and with a greater catch radius. He's also a better blocker. With or without Ellison on the field, Engram is going to drive opposing DCs nuts. I'm not keeping him on the bench just so Shepard can get more playing time.
Engram seemed to line up in the backfield a lot in college Â
Engram's blocking skills, but it would seem at this point he is not good enough to get Ellison off field with our two tackles.
You don't think Engram is capable of chipping a DE and then getting out in a route?
Vereen is also very good at picking up the blitz and/or giving Eli a safety blanket when appropriate. As long as he stays healthy, that should help the offense. And he's much more dangerous than Jennings with the ball in his hands which could cause LBs to hesitate just a little on rushes.
As well. When the Giants have a 3rd and 3 it might be better to have engram as the slot WR than Sheppard because whether or not Engram can block inline, he certainly has more body to block a cornerback in those spread run looks than Sheppard.
but they will all get snaps. I also think engram will take some split out wide snaps over Marshall and maybe even Beckham on ocassionaly.
Just get everyone more looks and give the defense more looks hopefully
I don't disagree that they can be in other groupings Â
What I am really asking is what is the difference. For instance, if we had a legitimate tight end who could line up at that spot and be a receiving threat as well as a blocking threat, it would change from last year in terms of how we could beat defenses. But if we have Ellison who is simply blocking threat (at least as far as evidence goes), not sure how the equation was changed. It might give the slot back a different look, but not sure how it changes us. Not trying to be difficult, just trying to be educated
#1 the Giants had NO tight end who excelled at blocking last year. If Ellison is that guy how can you ask what changes? The Giants now have a legit blocking TE. That's a huge change.
#2 Engram is a massive mismatch for most LB's and S's, so when he lines up at TE, or even WR many times, he's going to change how defenses play the Giants, whoever is covering Beckham can't always get help, because whoever is covering Engram will need help and that doesn't consider Shepard or Marshall.
#3 Marshall is also a physical mismatch that will change who gets attention on the Giants offense.
from a personnel standpoint the additions of Marshall, Ellison, and Engram change everything, and if Vereen can stay healthy the Giants offense can make a leap this year like the Giants defense did last year - with just average OL play.
Plus I would expect some non 11 personnel looks like empty backfield and maybe sweep Engram or Beckham on a jet sweep kind of play, or even some 12 personnel with Ellison and Engram and only two true WR's.
But let's face it...Engram is taller, faster, much more explosive and with a greater catch radius. He's also a better blocker. With or without Ellison on the field, Engram is going to drive opposing DCs nuts. I'm not keeping him on the bench just so Shepard can get more playing time.
Agree with this. I think we're going to see substantially more 2 TE sets and wouldn't even be surprised if it becomes our base offensive set by the end of the year. And Shepard doesn't have to be the WR sitting. BM is 33. They'll probably try to limit his snap totals to 85-90% at most, to keep him fresh and effective. Or even get Beckham some rest on a handful of snaps, particularly after he makes a big play, so he isn't as gassed late in the games. Not knocking his conditioning, there were just a couple games (PHI?) last year where he was basically the entire offense and despite 'only' 150 yards, probably ran 250-300+ yards with the ball in his hands.
I posted this in another thread, but with Engram's speed and route running abilities, they can go with a lot of 2 TE sets which will likely be countered by the D switching to their base (43 or 34). Then the Giants can split Engram out wide and: 1) get a 1v1 situation with Engram on a LB, 2) draw a LB out of the middle of the field and open running lanes, or 3) bring a safety down to cover Engram, opening things up for Beckham.
And if the Giants have success with 2 TE sets early, D's may counter by staying in a nickel D or going to a big nickel, which *should* help the running game.
As well. When the Giants have a 3rd and 3 it might be better to have engram as the slot WR than Sheppard because whether or not Engram can block inline, he certainly has more body to block a cornerback in those spread run looks than Sheppard.
but they will all get snaps. I also think engram will take some split out wide snaps over Marshall and maybe even Beckham on ocassionaly.
Just get everyone more looks and give the defense more looks hopefully
I agree with this.
I think Engram plays the slot over Shep in obvious running situations and plays TE in passing situations.
#1 the Giants had NO tight end who excelled at blocking last year. If Ellison is that guy how can you ask what changes? The Giants now have a legit blocking TE. That's a huge change.
Outside of Adams, who's playing time was limited, the Giants didn't even have a TE that was passable at blocking.
Quote:
#2 Engram is a massive mismatch for most LB's and S's, so when he lines up at TE, or even WR many times, he's going to change how defenses play the Giants, whoever is covering Beckham can't always get help, because whoever is covering Engram will need help and that doesn't consider Shepard or Marshall.
Exactly. If Engram's as good as the Giants FO/scouts (and Sy) think, he'll create matchup problems no matter what personnel groupings are used.
Quote:
#3 Marshall is also a physical mismatch that will change who gets attention on the Giants offense.
Yup. Without BM, teams might consider using their most physical CB on Engram at times. But with BM on the field, that's a much tougher decision.
Quote:
from a personnel standpoint the additions of Marshall, Ellison, and Engram change everything, and if Vereen can stay healthy the Giants offense can make a leap this year like the Giants defense did last year - with just average OL play.
Plus I would expect some non 11 personnel looks like empty backfield and maybe sweep Engram or Beckham on a jet sweep kind of play, or even some 12 personnel with Ellison and Engram and only two true WR's.
Ive seen a TON of posts suggesting we will be in a 3 WR set with both Engram and Ellison in. Not happening.
We could, though I doubt it happens more than 2-3 times per game at most. But Beckham/Shepard/Marshall with Engram/Ellison both lined up in the backfield could definitely happen. Telegraphing a pass in that situation, but it could create some interesting matchups.
this team had difficulty both running and passing against cover 2 when in 11 personnel. I think what Essex might be saying is that if Ellison is the TE in that situation then we still are going to have trouble passing...and if Engram is the TE then running might be a problem, especially if the offensive line doesn't improve. If you play both, then one of the WRs obviously comes off the field...which isn't ideal either.
Running outside zone runs to either side, there would be plenty of ways to do that, with Marshall and Ellison and EE all capable of types of run blocking, albeit different types.
And play action off those - both ways, left / right plenty of ways to do those as well. (Atlanta FALCONS)
Remember, ODB and EE, not only blocking for example, on outside zone runs on that side, but also creating space by forcing DBs and LBs to follow them, ala Sean Peyton / N.O. SAINTS (creating space by vacuum rather than force, but by all means both methods),
so, on certain outside zone runs ODB and EE cross/drag the DBs and LBs after them, creating run space left, and on others EE just blocks his DB, and on others EE helps the OLT chip, or switches with the OLT (briefly though, haha) , or breaks loose for a catch...
outside zone runs, allow OL to tee off on DL at angles.
Give the OL back its 'man card.'
Outside zone runs that start zip quick like.
Both sides. Run frequently.
EE, Ellison and Marshal bode well for this.
(And, as I said in another thread, if we are assuming that our OL cannot get this type of blocking done, then we may be relegating our OL to long days of 'stand and catch' simplicity, which is ruining their development and performance as linesmen anyway, why not go for it)
And play action both ways.
I keep hearing that Engram can't play in 11 packages, Â
but I disagree. We get that he is a little too light to take on DL, but the reality is that TE's rarely handle DL one-on-one. Engram is more than able to chip down on a DE, and can handle defenders at the 2nd and 4rd levels. Maybe not ideal, but well enough to prevent teams from playing all pass when he is in the game.
The other factor is that defenses will have to adjust to him more than he to them. Are teams going to risk putting a LB on him? Good luck with that! I think teams will go nickel or big nickel with Engram in the line-up, even in 11 personnel packages.
this team had difficulty both running and passing against cover 2 when in 11 personnel. I think what Essex might be saying is that if Ellison is the TE in that situation then we still are going to have trouble passing...and if Engram is the TE then running might be a problem, especially if the offensive line doesn't improve. If you play both, then one of the WRs obviously comes off the field...which isn't ideal either.
The counter to that is that with BM, Engram, and Ellison, their personnel is more flexible and that alone should make the offense more efficient. 3 WRs (with one a shell of himself) + 1 mediocre receiving TE + 1 old/slow RB is no longer the top personnel grouping.
Depending on how Engram looks early on, you can now likely make an argument as to what the best formation for the offense is:
Now, I have not followed Sean Peyton since he left here.
However, seem to remember that he was master of using WRs routes to create open space for additional receivers and runners by forcing the DBs to follow the first.
So, for us, quick crossing routes by ODB and EE (left to right) wheel pass to Perkins left sideline. Good luck to our new left tackle, Pugh or Biz.
As a change from EE run blocking.
Atlanta
Zone blocks- advent of Ellison, hitting the DE, allowing each OL to block the left defender rather than the one in front of him. Or EE from that side, the reverse, if only for a moment and all the way from the slot at start.
is that there may be roster redundancy in the 'big slot as run blocker/pass threat combination'.
In other words, it is worth putting into the playbook since even IF EE gets a hammy, Marshal still can be that player - big slot left. So you have the horses to make it a staple.
Either way, you can run outside zone left, big slot left, with Ellison still on the field as in line TE right (helps with blocking assignments obviously) with either EE, or Marshall, or both, healthy and on the field in some capacity.
RE: Engram seemed to line up in the backfield a lot in college Â
What does it mean to the future of Sterling Shepard? If Engram was an inline TE, the question wouldn't be so front and center in my mind, but he's not that type of TE. It's up to Shepard to prove he is more than just a slot receiver in three-WR sets.
plans for a bias in our base package personnel based on perceived weakness in opposition.
If weak against the run, bias to Ellison/Engram/Marshall. If weak against short, quick passes, bias to Shepard/Engram/Marshall. If weak downfield, bias to the run package. This is a bias, not an absolute do this every base down.
In all of these bases, OBJ is the constant. He should be given plenty of rest, and usage designed to prevent or mitigate injuries.
one would be on the field as the H-back the other as the TE. I also think we will see the team gradually work Engram into the lineup. There will be plenty of snaps to go around.
but most of our 'Flowers nightmares' came with EF being asked to 'stand in place and catch the DE' on pass plays that featured vanilla pass protection schemes as opposed to anything else.
whereas we may consider 'Falcons' more complex, it is probably welcome and 'much easier' in another sense, for an OL.
a lot of Engram/SS/OBJ at WR and Ellison as the traditional TE.
I think Engram is looked at as a dynamic TE, but I think he can also be our replacement for Brandon Marshall at WR in a year or two. He can play a bit of both.
Could cut down on Marshall's snaps, which at his age probably isn't a bad thing.
a lot of Engram/SS/OBJ at WR and Ellison as the traditional TE.
I think Engram is looked at as a dynamic TE, but I think he can also be our replacement for Brandon Marshall at WR in a year or two. He can play a bit of both.
Could cut down on Marshall's snaps, which at his age probably isn't a bad thing.
He wasn't drafted to be a WR, he was drafted to bust open the seam routes so that other teams D's couldn't use the cover-2 to contain OBJ.
That's the only issue I have with the Engram pick. Â
As an H-back he's by definition not an every down player in this scheme. Since McAdoo's entire scheme revolves around Eli in shotgun with 11 personnel, it would be quite the radical shift to all the sudden go to a heavy 2 TE offense.
I think it's more likely Engram takes some snaps from Shepard too. Base package of OBJ - Engram - Ellison - Marshall with Eli in the gun gives you a lot of flexibility. Could also motion Engram wide (like the Skins do with Reed) with OBJ in the slot to create confusion. What ends up happening is OBJ doubled and Engram working 1on1 with the S outside.
Shepard wasn't good enough last year to worry about leaving him on the field all the time.
is almost certainly coming to an end. I believe that we will see a lot of two TE sets this season and into the future. Some will be with two WRs (OBJ and BM) and some will be 3 WR sets (with an empty backfield, or with Engram in the backfield).
Ultimately, Engram will end up taking snaps from SS, Perkins, and Ellison.
Engram shows enough as a blocker to keep Ellison off the field.
Shep is a good player who could be even better with the other guys they've added. Not sure why so many posters are quick to cut his snaps.
Engram isnt going to be an in line TE. The real issue is whether his blocking is good enough when combined with the fact that the defense will likely have to sub a DB (maybe even a CB) for a LB to cover him. It should work on non-obvious run downs.
I think both will see lots of reps. Of our WRs and TEs, I think everyone except Odell will rotate in and out a lot. Marshall may be out there most of the time too.
You don't draft a kid in the 1st round because you envision him as a part-time role player. Engram is going to get on the field early and often, and hopefully the HC and the OC can find all sorts of innovative ways to use him.
Now, you can say the same thing about spending big bucks on a UFA TE, but when it comes to Ellison, outside of the money guaranteed at signing the bucks weren't really that big compared to what many other TEs are making. He'll get his fair share of playing time, but he's hardly the "versatile offensive weapon" that Engram is. At best Ellison is solid, steady. Engram is dynamic, and this offensive needs as much dynamic as it can get.
Where does a Fullback fit into the personnel equation? We didn't have one last year and I think it hurt us immensely. The HC should understand the importance of having a competent FB n the team (having seen what John Kuhn could do), but since the Giants don't have one and didn't draft one, my hope is that Shane Smith can fill that void.
How does our new RB fit into the equation, too? I like Perkins, but the Giants needed a bruiser back there. I was hoping for Perine but I'm happy with Gallman, one of those guys who fits the cliche' about doing nothing great but everything well. I think he'll become a bigger part of the offense than we may suspect right now.
The thing is most loved the Shep pick last year. He was pretty productive as a rookie. If we're focusing on mismatches then OBJ/Marshall/Shep/Engram on the field at once creates the most mismatches.
Ellison isn't a mismatch over any of the top four.
This is why the Giants really need Engram to at least be respectable in the blocking department. Huge advantage for the offense if they can get those four on the field and Ellison off -- assuming Engram will be what everyone hopes he will be.
The thing is most loved the Shep pick last year. He was pretty productive as a rookie. If we're focusing on mismatches then OBJ/Marshall/Shep/Engram on the field at once creates the most mismatches.
Ellison isn't a mismatch over any of the top four.
This is why the Giants really need Engram to at least be respectable in the blocking department. Huge advantage for the offense if they can get those four on the field and Ellison off -- assuming Engram will be what everyone hopes he will be.
If Engram's speed/versatility starts forcing D's to use big nickel packages against the Giants 2 TE sets, then Ellison's blocking becomes a 'mismatch' of a sorts.
Last year OBJ & Shep had over 1000 snaps. Cruz had 767 and Lewis had 208 and Harris/King had 234. With Marshall, the numbers of 4th & 5th WR go down - 4-6WR had 400+ snaps
TE had Tye at 681, Donnell at 214 and Adams at 204
900 snaps between Tye and Donnell, now will be Engram/Ellison
They have players now that provide more options to threaten defenses
The thing is most loved the Shep pick last year. He was pretty productive as a rookie. If we're focusing on mismatches then OBJ/Marshall/Shep/Engram on the field at once creates the most mismatches.
Ellison isn't a mismatch over any of the top four.
This is why the Giants really need Engram to at least be respectable in the blocking department. Huge advantage for the offense if they can get those four on the field and Ellison off -- assuming Engram will be what everyone hopes he will be.
If Engram's speed/versatility starts forcing D's to use big nickel packages against the Giants 2 TE sets, then Ellison's blocking becomes a 'mismatch' of a sorts.
Yeah, that was my point. If we send out Engram with Marshall and OBJ out wide, pretty good chance the other team cant send out 3 LBs. If we put EE on OBJ's side, either Odell gets single coverage, EE is covered by a LB, or they bring a safety down on EE and shift the other safety to single high. Single high safety is a brutal defense when you have Odell on one side and Marshall on the other.
So if EE is at all effective as a receiving threat, most teams are going to sub in a 5th DB when he is out there, except on running downs. So his mere presence takes care of a LB. And unlike most WRs, you can probably count on him to win most blocking battles with a DB.
Ross, Reese and McAdoo all said Engram can line up all over the offense.
Traditional TE, split out as a WR, slot, H-Back, fullback.
I can see them getting a ton of looks with him.
I hope they ease him into the roles a bit. That's a lot of positions to get accustomed to at the pro level, even if he has college experience there. In particular, maybe hold off on the fullback work this season (it's different blocking responsibilities to TE and H back).
RE: For me, this is the biggest question with the Engram pick... Â
What does it mean to the future of Sterling Shepard? If Engram was an inline TE, the question wouldn't be so front and center in my mind, but he's not that type of TE. It's up to Shepard to prove he is more than just a slot receiver in three-WR sets.
Or, stated a different way, if EE is SS turbocharged, the overlap in skill set even as the skills are upgraded, brings one back to Ranaan's premise about trading up to grab Howard, an otherwise unpopular idea here, together with the foregone pick.
to be blocking DEs and he is big, fast and strong enough to handle LBs,Safeties and DBs. Do not see a problem getting him plenty of action all over the field with his skill set.
Far off topic but Eli throwing back shoulder fades to Bm and EE on mismatches is somthing to look foward to. Nice to see thar wepon returned to Eli on third downs.
This is the exact matchup issues Engram brings to the table Â
first off the Giants played 11 personnel a last year because they were forced to do so. They didnt have a fullback.. BOTH of their fullbacks on the roster succumbed to injury. They didnt have a TE who was adept at inline blocking. Their running game suffered due to Jennings fall off, Vereen being hurt, Perkins having very limited off season and Cruz being miscast as an outside receiver and one who had his wheels fall off due to injury..
The Giants should not be limited this season because of their personnel. They have gained a bigger more physical outside receiver in Marshall. They have added a blocking TE in Ellison who also played fullback as well. They should have better production from the running backs. The TE position will be better especially if Adams develops as well..
As McAdoo said in his interview on the fan. They will be MULTIPLE.. meaning they will be Multiple in their offensive formations and fronts. Obviously they can very depending on the defensive alignments they see, down, distance and position on the field.. which is good.
Im going to quote myself from another post on another thread
Quote:
Giants played 1062 snaps on offense last year.
Will Tye played 682 of those snaps 64.12%...
think bout that for a second.. Will Tye played 65% of the Giants offensive snap counts..
Would you rather have Will Tye out there 65% of the time.. or Evan Engram out there 65% of the time??
Why is it when Green Bay can trot out Jordy Nelson and Devante Adams. and Randall Cobb and Jared Cook and have Eddy Lacey AND Ty Montgomery we scream about their diversity on offense..
but when its the Giants.. its.. OH NO there arent enough football to go around..
Its like we dont understand that football is about creating mismatches
Dottino brought this up briefly on Big Blue Kickoff Live..
Look at The Packers 2011 team..
Jordy Nelson- 68 receptions
Greg Jennings- 67 receptions
Donald Driver- 38 receptions
James Jones- 37 Receptions
Those are your receivers...
Jermichael Finley TE- 55 Receptions
Tom Crabtree was the BLOCKING TE. He had 8 receptions.
Now look at the Giants..
OBJ
Marshall
Shepard
and a 4th whether its Lewis, or King or someone else.
Evan Engram is Jermichael Finley.. Thats basically how he will be used in the offense.
Ellison is Crabtree..
Maybe they add a fullback..
There are MORE than enough targets and receptions to go around...
He's 235 pounds before getting into an NFL weight room.
You are making it seem like he's physically incapable. If he only added 10 pounds of mass he'd be slightly less than Kevin Boss.
You dont want Engram to be almost 250lbs,.. You want him to get stronger yes.. He shouldnt gain more that 5 lbs..
People have to face facts.. This is the new NFL. The NFL is about creating mismatches.. Not fitting with the 1970's archaic NFL that we all grew up and became enamored with...
The Giants need a MOVE TE.. They have Ellison and Adams to block.. they dont need another blocker.. they need someone to stretch a defense and attack Cover 2..
You dont win the Kentucky derby on a donkey with a whip.. you drafted a thoroughbred.. let him run.. Dont try and TURN him into something he ISNT..
first off the Giants played 11 personnel a last year because they were forced to do so. They didnt have a fullback.. BOTH of their fullbacks on the roster succumbed to injury. They didnt have a TE who was adept at inline blocking. Their running game suffered due to Jennings fall off, Vereen being hurt, Perkins having very limited off season and Cruz being miscast as an outside receiver and one who had his wheels fall off due to injury..
The Giants should not be limited this season because of their personnel. They have gained a bigger more physical outside receiver in Marshall. They have added a blocking TE in Ellison who also played fullback as well. They should have better production from the running backs. The TE position will be better especially if Adams develops as well..
As McAdoo said in his interview on the fan. They will be MULTIPLE.. meaning they will be Multiple in their offensive formations and fronts. Obviously they can very depending on the defensive alignments they see, down, distance and position on the field.. which is good.
Im going to quote myself from another post on another thread
Quote:
Giants played 1062 snaps on offense last year.
Will Tye played 682 of those snaps 64.12%...
think bout that for a second.. Will Tye played 65% of the Giants offensive snap counts..
Would you rather have Will Tye out there 65% of the time.. or Evan Engram out there 65% of the time??
Why is it when Green Bay can trot out Jordy Nelson and Devante Adams. and Randall Cobb and Jared Cook and have Eddy Lacey AND Ty Montgomery we scream about their diversity on offense..
but when its the Giants.. its.. OH NO there arent enough football to go around..
Its like we dont understand that football is about creating mismatches
Dottino brought this up briefly on Big Blue Kickoff Live..
Look at The Packers 2011 team..
Jordy Nelson- 68 receptions
Greg Jennings- 67 receptions
Donald Driver- 38 receptions
James Jones- 37 Receptions
Those are your receivers...
Jermichael Finley TE- 55 Receptions
Tom Crabtree was the BLOCKING TE. He had 8 receptions.
Now look at the Giants..
OBJ
Marshall
Shepard
and a 4th whether its Lewis, or King or someone else.
Evan Engram is Jermichael Finley.. Thats basically how he will be used in the offense.
Ellison is Crabtree..
Maybe they add a fullback..
There are MORE than enough targets and receptions to go around...
So he can play the majority of the snaps and Ellison just comes in for breathers, a fullback if needed, etc. This way all 4 (OBJ/EE/SS/BM) are always on the field together
He's 235 pounds before getting into an NFL weight room.
You are making it seem like he's physically incapable. If he only added 10 pounds of mass he'd be slightly less than Kevin Boss.
You dont want Engram to be almost 250lbs,.. You want him to get stronger yes.. He shouldnt gain more that 5 lbs..
People have to face facts.. This is the new NFL. The NFL is about creating mismatches.. Not fitting with the 1970's archaic NFL that we all grew up and became enamored with...
The Giants need a MOVE TE.. They have Ellison and Adams to block.. they dont need another blocker.. they need someone to stretch a defense and attack Cover 2..
You dont win the Kentucky derby on a donkey with a whip.. you drafted a thoroughbred.. let him run.. Dont try and TURN him into something he ISNT..
He's 6'3. 5 pounds is inconsequential. A football player probably sweats out 5 pounds in a September game.
witnessed the Jermichael Finley era in GB too...he will run plenty of 11 personnel with Engram the lone TE, just offset, or motioned into the slot or wing
pretty much how he used Tye as the starting TE last year
We ran one package because that's the talent we had Â
The offense wasnt even 5 deep at WR/TEs/FBs to pick from if you wanted real talent.
How much did the early 1990s Cowboys deviate from 21 personnel (2 RB, 2 WR, 1 TE)? The leading receive on Dallas in 1993 beyond Smith, Moose, Irvin, Harper and Novacek (their starting 21 personnel package? That would be Kevin Williams with 20 catches for 151 yards. Were people complaining?
RE: That's the only issue I have with the Engram pick. Â
As an H-back he's by definition not an every down player in this scheme. Since McAdoo's entire scheme revolves around Eli in shotgun with 11 personnel, it would be quite the radical shift to all the sudden go to a heavy 2 TE offense.
I think it's more likely Engram takes some snaps from Shepard too. Base package of OBJ - Engram - Ellison - Marshall with Eli in the gun gives you a lot of flexibility. Could also motion Engram wide (like the Skins do with Reed) with OBJ in the slot to create confusion. What ends up happening is OBJ doubled and Engram working 1on1 with the S outside.
Shepard wasn't good enough last year to worry about leaving him on the field all the time.
This is false. The scheme does not rely on 11 personnel; the Giants were basically forced into that by virtue of their roster composition last season and that particular personnel grouping representing by far the most talented lineup that the Giants could trot out there.
Everything the Giants have done this offseason indicates that they would prefer much greater lineup diversity on offense going forward.
Ive seen a TON of posts suggesting we will be in a 3 WR set with both Engram and Ellison in. Not happening.
Agree. Not sure why anyone thinks this will be happening with any frequency in McAdoo's offense. Two TE set, whatever you call Engram in that set, will maybe happen when the running play inside or outside needs to be got. Engram is a willing blocker and will get better over time. Maybe not Mark Bavaro but, on a long play, you're not going to hold two tight ends on the line when one is a seam buster and safety valve who can take the safety cover off the top.
If Ellison is lined up in the backfield with Perkins, Engram at TE with Marshall and OBJ wide, they are 12 personnel (2 backs, one right end). If Ellison then shifts in line, they are in 21 personnel (2 TEs one back). At that point, if Engram moves to the slot, they are in 11 personnel(one TE, one back).
Ellison doesn't have to be in on every set, but if he is then clearly you are limiting the snaps of Shepherd. I think it will be Ellison and Shepherd that split snaps for the most part, and not Engram and Shepherd. Ellison's presence will key the D to the potential for a running play, but also allow a shift to a passing set. His absence, and the presence of Shepherd makes the O a more potent passing set.
Just looking at a post on Personnel groupings and thinking about the Giants. It seems that 11 Personnel is the dominant package for NFL teams who play out of it more than 50% of the time.
I think the issue with the Giants is WHO makes up that group. They have the flexibility to utilize different players in that group and now they have the ability to " be Multiple " in terms of which formation or set they are in.
For example I was looking and thinking..
They could come out in a 12 Personnel package.. One RB, 2 TE's and 2 WR's with Perkins, Ellison, Marshall, OBJ, Engram. Then they could flex Engram out wide into an 11 Personnel package with Engram being a WR. They could also do the reverse.
They can easily use 00, 01, 02(a favorite of the Patriots when they had Hernandez), 10, 11, 12, even 13,
They could use a 20 package with 3 WR's and 2 RB's with Perkins and Vereen on the field could become a 10 with Vereen being used as a WR.. Or they could put Engram in the backfield as an Hback with Perkins OR Vereen. They could put Engram and Vereen in the backfield and then switch to either a 00 or Five WR's with Engram and Vereen becoming receivers.. OR they go to a 10 with Vereen staying in at RB and Engram being the 4th WR
Because of the personnel they should be able to show a defense multiple looks and multiple formation and better disguise what they are doing or change to one formation or another to potentially exploit a defense.
This is also why people worrying about Engram cutting into Shepard's snaps is somewhat overblown. There are at least 6 of these formations that utilize a minimum of 3 receivers. And with Engram being a Move TE or Hback (he has lined up in the backfield in college) both he and Shepard can be on the field at the same time in at least 4 of these formations..
It will be interesting to see what McAdoo does with the tools he has now..
Falcons run '13' personel (3 tight ends) a lot for run and pass Â
''Here, the Falcons face a first-and-10 on their own 39 yard line, and line up in 13 personnel. Hooper and Toilolo are to the right, with Tamme and Jones to the left. The Raiders have their base 4-3 defense in the game using an under front.''
''The Falcons run a standard boot-action play — at least at the beginning.
Ryan takes the snap and fakes an
>>>>outside zone run to the left<<<< (why I favor Pugh here at OLT, in ddition better in line TE Ellison right makes outside zone left more credible as well)
to Coleman. The QB then peels back and rolls to the right. Jones runs a deep crossing route while Tamme runs a shallow drag. Toilolo blocks down at first with the rest of the line, before releasing to the flat. As the play begins, the Raiders seem to have this covered, which you would expect, given the usage of this play around the NFL.
But there is one more receiver about to enter the fray — Hooper.
''
''After executing his blocking assignment, Hooper then runs a wheel route to the backside, and finds that there are no Raiders on that side of the field.''
now, could we substitute Ellison, Engram and Marshal at "TEs'? Â
and the new RB (name?) in this formation? Possibly, or a variation.
The whole thing hinges on the fact that when the Falcons DO run the outside zone run left it kicks ass, the kid gets nice yardage in it (the RB),
....so your "TE"s (and tackles) need to get blocks done.
That said though, remember, all that sounds complex, but may be much, much 'easier' in another sense, than 'stand and catch/absorb all day' was, all last year, was on them (the OL) .
RE: Falcons run '13' personel (3 tight ends) a lot for run and pass Â
''Here, the Falcons face a first-and-10 on their own 39 yard line, and line up in 13 personnel. Hooper and Toilolo are to the right, with Tamme and Jones to the left. The Raiders have their base 4-3 defense in the game using an under front.''
''The Falcons run a standard boot-action play — at least at the beginning.
Ryan takes the snap and fakes an
>>>>outside zone run to the left<<<< (why I favor Pugh here at OLT, in ddition better in line TE Ellison right makes outside zone left more credible as well)
to Coleman. The QB then peels back and rolls to the right. Jones runs a deep crossing route while Tamme runs a shallow drag. Toilolo blocks down at first with the rest of the line, before releasing to the flat. As the play begins, the Raiders seem to have this covered, which you would expect, given the usage of this play around the NFL.
But there is one more receiver about to enter the fray — Hooper.
''
''After executing his blocking assignment, Hooper then runs a wheel route to the backside, and finds that there are no Raiders on that side of the field.''
Devonta Freeman red zone rushing plays -relative to Giants-
- VERY high number of attempts in the Red Zone, very high number of success for the Falcons in the red zone, to tell you that they take outside zone rushing seriously.
and, the effect of play action off those from anywhere on the field, and you can see that having 3 'big, wide, slow' tight ends on the field at the same time in no way hurts your passing game.
Their offense was LIGHT YEARS better than ours. Light years.
is a limited intelligence, one trick pony, who cannot design an offense around great physical talent.
They probably watched the offense last season
And had no idea what they were watching.
We had the only Leaping Larry the league has ever known, though. So, it's hard to say how McAdoo will cope with replacing the leaping legend with a mere oversized slot receiver...
or replacing pro bowl Victor Cruz with a true outside receiver...
or having an actual blocking TE...
We'll see if he can cope...
Winning games is about creating matchup problems... Â
and making the plays they give to you. Once you build a lead you want to shorten the game and opportunities for opponents to catch you. I think this is Coach McAdoo's strategy anyway.
As a result, I think early on or when we are behind we will see more 11 personnel with the following:
Later in games with leads I'd expect the game plan to be more conservative and the personnel would reflect a need for a strong running game. Probably 12 personnel with Ellison in the game and Shepard out.
Situational running package would probably look the same - 13 or possibly even 14 personnel with Fluker playing at TE between Flowers and Ellison, and Engram at H-back with Marshall at WR. Eli could shift Engram outside and to see if they can draw single coverage on either of the outside WR's or if they draw double-coverage improve the numbers inside on with the run game.
So, while I still expect us to be in 11 personnel a majority of the time, I would also expect that our roster will give us the flexibility to go big while still threatening the edges and deep part of the field.
EE will block fine, play with his hand on the ground, and fill the Â
normal TE role. Once his blocking is improved Ellison will only be on for special situations. We will have a 250 pd TE that can play the normal TE spot, while also have a lot of flexibility to move around too.
That was one of the issues last year. 80% or so of the Gmen playbook came out of the 3 WR set.
Why do you think you're missing something.
they used 11 personnel so heavily because they didn't have many other options. If everyone stays healthy now they do.
You don't think Engram is capable of chipping a DE and then getting out in a route?
Vereen is also very good at picking up the blitz and/or giving Eli a safety blanket when appropriate. As long as he stays healthy, that should help the offense. And he's much more dangerous than Jennings with the ball in his hands which could cause LBs to hesitate just a little on rushes.
but they will all get snaps. I also think engram will take some split out wide snaps over Marshall and maybe even Beckham on ocassionaly.
Just get everyone more looks and give the defense more looks hopefully
Ellison helps the OL,Marshall/Beckham/Engram is a potentially unstoppable trio.
Love Shep, but I expect his snaps to dip quite a bit
#1 the Giants had NO tight end who excelled at blocking last year. If Ellison is that guy how can you ask what changes? The Giants now have a legit blocking TE. That's a huge change.
#2 Engram is a massive mismatch for most LB's and S's, so when he lines up at TE, or even WR many times, he's going to change how defenses play the Giants, whoever is covering Beckham can't always get help, because whoever is covering Engram will need help and that doesn't consider Shepard or Marshall.
#3 Marshall is also a physical mismatch that will change who gets attention on the Giants offense.
from a personnel standpoint the additions of Marshall, Ellison, and Engram change everything, and if Vereen can stay healthy the Giants offense can make a leap this year like the Giants defense did last year - with just average OL play.
Plus I would expect some non 11 personnel looks like empty backfield and maybe sweep Engram or Beckham on a jet sweep kind of play, or even some 12 personnel with Ellison and Engram and only two true WR's.
Agree with this. I think we're going to see substantially more 2 TE sets and wouldn't even be surprised if it becomes our base offensive set by the end of the year. And Shepard doesn't have to be the WR sitting. BM is 33. They'll probably try to limit his snap totals to 85-90% at most, to keep him fresh and effective. Or even get Beckham some rest on a handful of snaps, particularly after he makes a big play, so he isn't as gassed late in the games. Not knocking his conditioning, there were just a couple games (PHI?) last year where he was basically the entire offense and despite 'only' 150 yards, probably ran 250-300+ yards with the ball in his hands.
I posted this in another thread, but with Engram's speed and route running abilities, they can go with a lot of 2 TE sets which will likely be countered by the D switching to their base (43 or 34). Then the Giants can split Engram out wide and: 1) get a 1v1 situation with Engram on a LB, 2) draw a LB out of the middle of the field and open running lanes, or 3) bring a safety down to cover Engram, opening things up for Beckham.
And if the Giants have success with 2 TE sets early, D's may counter by staying in a nickel D or going to a big nickel, which *should* help the running game.
but they will all get snaps. I also think engram will take some split out wide snaps over Marshall and maybe even Beckham on ocassionaly.
Just get everyone more looks and give the defense more looks hopefully
I agree with this.
I think Engram plays the slot over Shep in obvious running situations and plays TE in passing situations.
#1 the Giants had NO tight end who excelled at blocking last year. If Ellison is that guy how can you ask what changes? The Giants now have a legit blocking TE. That's a huge change.
Outside of Adams, who's playing time was limited, the Giants didn't even have a TE that was passable at blocking.
#2 Engram is a massive mismatch for most LB's and S's, so when he lines up at TE, or even WR many times, he's going to change how defenses play the Giants, whoever is covering Beckham can't always get help, because whoever is covering Engram will need help and that doesn't consider Shepard or Marshall.
Exactly. If Engram's as good as the Giants FO/scouts (and Sy) think, he'll create matchup problems no matter what personnel groupings are used.
#3 Marshall is also a physical mismatch that will change who gets attention on the Giants offense.
Yup. Without BM, teams might consider using their most physical CB on Engram at times. But with BM on the field, that's a much tougher decision.
from a personnel standpoint the additions of Marshall, Ellison, and Engram change everything, and if Vereen can stay healthy the Giants offense can make a leap this year like the Giants defense did last year - with just average OL play.
Plus I would expect some non 11 personnel looks like empty backfield and maybe sweep Engram or Beckham on a jet sweep kind of play, or even some 12 personnel with Ellison and Engram and only two true WR's.
We could, though I doubt it happens more than 2-3 times per game at most. But Beckham/Shepard/Marshall with Engram/Ellison both lined up in the backfield could definitely happen. Telegraphing a pass in that situation, but it could create some interesting matchups.
You're asked good questions and stimulating discussion. That's what this board is supposed to be about.
....................Manning........................
.........................Perkins.............
Running outside zone runs to either side, there would be plenty of ways to do that, with Marshall and Ellison and EE all capable of types of run blocking, albeit different types.
And play action off those - both ways, left / right plenty of ways to do those as well. (Atlanta FALCONS)
Remember, ODB and EE, not only blocking for example, on outside zone runs on that side, but also creating space by forcing DBs and LBs to follow them, ala Sean Peyton / N.O. SAINTS (creating space by vacuum rather than force, but by all means both methods),
so, on certain outside zone runs ODB and EE cross/drag the DBs and LBs after them, creating run space left, and on others EE just blocks his DB, and on others EE helps the OLT chip, or switches with the OLT (briefly though, haha) , or breaks loose for a catch...
Give the OL back its 'man card.'
Outside zone runs that start zip quick like.
Both sides. Run frequently.
EE, Ellison and Marshal bode well for this.
(And, as I said in another thread, if we are assuming that our OL cannot get this type of blocking done, then we may be relegating our OL to long days of 'stand and catch' simplicity, which is ruining their development and performance as linesmen anyway, why not go for it)
And play action both ways.
The other factor is that defenses will have to adjust to him more than he to them. Are teams going to risk putting a LB on him? Good luck with that! I think teams will go nickel or big nickel with Engram in the line-up, even in 11 personnel packages.
The counter to that is that with BM, Engram, and Ellison, their personnel is more flexible and that alone should make the offense more efficient. 3 WRs (with one a shell of himself) + 1 mediocre receiving TE + 1 old/slow RB is no longer the top personnel grouping.
Depending on how Engram looks early on, you can now likely make an argument as to what the best formation for the offense is:
1. OBJ/BM/SS + Ellison/Perkins
2. OBJ/BM/SS + Ellison/Vereen
3. OBJ/BM/SS + Engram/Perkins
4. OBJ/BM/SS + Engram/Vereen
5. OBJ/BM + Engram/Ellison/Perkins
6. OBJ/SS + Engram/Ellison/Perkins
etc.
However, seem to remember that he was master of using WRs routes to create open space for additional receivers and runners by forcing the DBs to follow the first.
So, for us, quick crossing routes by ODB and EE (left to right) wheel pass to Perkins left sideline. Good luck to our new left tackle, Pugh or Biz.
As a change from EE run blocking.
Atlanta
Zone blocks- advent of Ellison, hitting the DE, allowing each OL to block the left defender rather than the one in front of him. Or EE from that side, the reverse, if only for a moment and all the way from the slot at start.
It's not that hard to find ways to get your best players on the field. You get 60+ plays a game.
In other words, it is worth putting into the playbook since even IF EE gets a hammy, Marshal still can be that player - big slot left. So you have the horses to make it a staple.
Either way, you can run outside zone left, big slot left, with Ellison still on the field as in line TE right (helps with blocking assignments obviously) with either EE, or Marshall, or both, healthy and on the field in some capacity.
Thats what I envision it force a LB on him in most cases ...
If weak against the run, bias to Ellison/Engram/Marshall. If weak against short, quick passes, bias to Shepard/Engram/Marshall. If weak downfield, bias to the run package. This is a bias, not an absolute do this every base down.
In all of these bases, OBJ is the constant. He should be given plenty of rest, and usage designed to prevent or mitigate injuries.
Outside zone right this time,
Ellison peels off R to block the LB,
Marshall run blocks his DB, Perkins runs right.
Safeties and Lbs also go that way?
Then you can have all sorts of fun with ODB and EE receiving left.
whereas we may consider 'Falcons' more complex, it is probably welcome and 'much easier' in another sense, for an OL.
I think Engram is looked at as a dynamic TE, but I think he can also be our replacement for Brandon Marshall at WR in a year or two. He can play a bit of both.
Could cut down on Marshall's snaps, which at his age probably isn't a bad thing.
I think Engram is looked at as a dynamic TE, but I think he can also be our replacement for Brandon Marshall at WR in a year or two. He can play a bit of both.
Could cut down on Marshall's snaps, which at his age probably isn't a bad thing.
I think it's more likely Engram takes some snaps from Shepard too. Base package of OBJ - Engram - Ellison - Marshall with Eli in the gun gives you a lot of flexibility. Could also motion Engram wide (like the Skins do with Reed) with OBJ in the slot to create confusion. What ends up happening is OBJ doubled and Engram working 1on1 with the S outside.
Shepard wasn't good enough last year to worry about leaving him on the field all the time.
Shep is a good player who could be even better with the other guys they've added. Not sure why so many posters are quick to cut his snaps.
Ultimately, Engram will end up taking snaps from SS, Perkins, and Ellison.
Shep is a good player who could be even better with the other guys they've added. Not sure why so many posters are quick to cut his snaps.
Engram isnt going to be an in line TE. The real issue is whether his blocking is good enough when combined with the fact that the defense will likely have to sub a DB (maybe even a CB) for a LB to cover him. It should work on non-obvious run downs.
I think both will see lots of reps. Of our WRs and TEs, I think everyone except Odell will rotate in and out a lot. Marshall may be out there most of the time too.
Now, you can say the same thing about spending big bucks on a UFA TE, but when it comes to Ellison, outside of the money guaranteed at signing the bucks weren't really that big compared to what many other TEs are making. He'll get his fair share of playing time, but he's hardly the "versatile offensive weapon" that Engram is. At best Ellison is solid, steady. Engram is dynamic, and this offensive needs as much dynamic as it can get.
Where does a Fullback fit into the personnel equation? We didn't have one last year and I think it hurt us immensely. The HC should understand the importance of having a competent FB n the team (having seen what John Kuhn could do), but since the Giants don't have one and didn't draft one, my hope is that Shane Smith can fill that void.
How does our new RB fit into the equation, too? I like Perkins, but the Giants needed a bruiser back there. I was hoping for Perine but I'm happy with Gallman, one of those guys who fits the cliche' about doing nothing great but everything well. I think he'll become a bigger part of the offense than we may suspect right now.
Mediocre OL play and this team is as good as any.
Ellison isn't a mismatch over any of the top four.
This is why the Giants really need Engram to at least be respectable in the blocking department. Huge advantage for the offense if they can get those four on the field and Ellison off -- assuming Engram will be what everyone hopes he will be.
Ellison isn't a mismatch over any of the top four.
This is why the Giants really need Engram to at least be respectable in the blocking department. Huge advantage for the offense if they can get those four on the field and Ellison off -- assuming Engram will be what everyone hopes he will be.
If Engram's speed/versatility starts forcing D's to use big nickel packages against the Giants 2 TE sets, then Ellison's blocking becomes a 'mismatch' of a sorts.
TE had Tye at 681, Donnell at 214 and Adams at 204
900 snaps between Tye and Donnell, now will be Engram/Ellison
They have players now that provide more options to threaten defenses
Traditional TE, split out as a WR, slot, H-Back, fullback.
I can see them getting a ton of looks with him.
Quote:
The thing is most loved the Shep pick last year. He was pretty productive as a rookie. If we're focusing on mismatches then OBJ/Marshall/Shep/Engram on the field at once creates the most mismatches.
Ellison isn't a mismatch over any of the top four.
This is why the Giants really need Engram to at least be respectable in the blocking department. Huge advantage for the offense if they can get those four on the field and Ellison off -- assuming Engram will be what everyone hopes he will be.
If Engram's speed/versatility starts forcing D's to use big nickel packages against the Giants 2 TE sets, then Ellison's blocking becomes a 'mismatch' of a sorts.
Yeah, that was my point. If we send out Engram with Marshall and OBJ out wide, pretty good chance the other team cant send out 3 LBs. If we put EE on OBJ's side, either Odell gets single coverage, EE is covered by a LB, or they bring a safety down on EE and shift the other safety to single high. Single high safety is a brutal defense when you have Odell on one side and Marshall on the other.
So if EE is at all effective as a receiving threat, most teams are going to sub in a 5th DB when he is out there, except on running downs. So his mere presence takes care of a LB. And unlike most WRs, you can probably count on him to win most blocking battles with a DB.
Traditional TE, split out as a WR, slot, H-Back, fullback.
I can see them getting a ton of looks with him.
I hope they ease him into the roles a bit. That's a lot of positions to get accustomed to at the pro level, even if he has college experience there. In particular, maybe hold off on the fullback work this season (it's different blocking responsibilities to TE and H back).
We can trot out Engram, Ellison, Vereen, Shep and OBJ on one play
Throw Ellison in the backfield, OBJ wide left, Shep wide right, Vereen slot left and just off the right side of the line.
Now what does a defense do?
Is Ellison going to run a route? Stay in to block?
Is Engram going to block? Chip and release? Break immediately down the seam?
Vereen running a bubble screen or a wheel route?
And that is just scratching the surface
Nope
The Giants should not be limited this season because of their personnel. They have gained a bigger more physical outside receiver in Marshall. They have added a blocking TE in Ellison who also played fullback as well. They should have better production from the running backs. The TE position will be better especially if Adams develops as well..
As McAdoo said in his interview on the fan. They will be MULTIPLE.. meaning they will be Multiple in their offensive formations and fronts. Obviously they can very depending on the defensive alignments they see, down, distance and position on the field.. which is good.
Im going to quote myself from another post on another thread
Giants played 1062 snaps on offense last year.
Will Tye played 682 of those snaps 64.12%...
think bout that for a second.. Will Tye played 65% of the Giants offensive snap counts..
Would you rather have Will Tye out there 65% of the time.. or Evan Engram out there 65% of the time??
Why is it when Green Bay can trot out Jordy Nelson and Devante Adams. and Randall Cobb and Jared Cook and have Eddy Lacey AND Ty Montgomery we scream about their diversity on offense..
but when its the Giants.. its.. OH NO there arent enough football to go around..
Its like we dont understand that football is about creating mismatches
Dottino brought this up briefly on Big Blue Kickoff Live..
Look at The Packers 2011 team..
Jordy Nelson- 68 receptions
Greg Jennings- 67 receptions
Donald Driver- 38 receptions
James Jones- 37 Receptions
Those are your receivers...
Jermichael Finley TE- 55 Receptions
Tom Crabtree was the BLOCKING TE. He had 8 receptions.
Now look at the Giants..
OBJ
Marshall
Shepard
and a 4th whether its Lewis, or King or someone else.
Evan Engram is Jermichael Finley.. Thats basically how he will be used in the offense.
Ellison is Crabtree..
Maybe they add a fullback..
There are MORE than enough targets and receptions to go around...
We wouldn't have drafted Engram if we weren't going to be able to get him on the field.
You are making it seem like he's physically incapable. If he only added 10 pounds of mass he'd be slightly less than Kevin Boss.
You are making it seem like he's physically incapable. If he only added 10 pounds of mass he'd be slightly less than Kevin Boss.
You dont want Engram to be almost 250lbs,.. You want him to get stronger yes.. He shouldnt gain more that 5 lbs..
People have to face facts.. This is the new NFL. The NFL is about creating mismatches.. Not fitting with the 1970's archaic NFL that we all grew up and became enamored with...
The Giants need a MOVE TE.. They have Ellison and Adams to block.. they dont need another blocker.. they need someone to stretch a defense and attack Cover 2..
You dont win the Kentucky derby on a donkey with a whip.. you drafted a thoroughbred.. let him run.. Dont try and TURN him into something he ISNT..
All of these guys will see significant playing time in different packages.
Ellison will line up at TE and at FB.
Engram will likely line up at multiple positions including at TE, H back, and outside. Reese said as much.
Engram is a willing blocker, this is being way overblown into an 'Engram can't line up at TE' thing. Typical BBI...black and white.
No, but you can have a lot of fun on a Saturday night.
The Giants should not be limited this season because of their personnel. They have gained a bigger more physical outside receiver in Marshall. They have added a blocking TE in Ellison who also played fullback as well. They should have better production from the running backs. The TE position will be better especially if Adams develops as well..
As McAdoo said in his interview on the fan. They will be MULTIPLE.. meaning they will be Multiple in their offensive formations and fronts. Obviously they can very depending on the defensive alignments they see, down, distance and position on the field.. which is good.
Im going to quote myself from another post on another thread
Quote:
Giants played 1062 snaps on offense last year.
Will Tye played 682 of those snaps 64.12%...
think bout that for a second.. Will Tye played 65% of the Giants offensive snap counts..
Would you rather have Will Tye out there 65% of the time.. or Evan Engram out there 65% of the time??
Why is it when Green Bay can trot out Jordy Nelson and Devante Adams. and Randall Cobb and Jared Cook and have Eddy Lacey AND Ty Montgomery we scream about their diversity on offense..
but when its the Giants.. its.. OH NO there arent enough football to go around..
Its like we dont understand that football is about creating mismatches
Dottino brought this up briefly on Big Blue Kickoff Live..
Look at The Packers 2011 team..
Jordy Nelson- 68 receptions
Greg Jennings- 67 receptions
Donald Driver- 38 receptions
James Jones- 37 Receptions
Those are your receivers...
Jermichael Finley TE- 55 Receptions
Tom Crabtree was the BLOCKING TE. He had 8 receptions.
Now look at the Giants..
OBJ
Marshall
Shepard
and a 4th whether its Lewis, or King or someone else.
Evan Engram is Jermichael Finley.. Thats basically how he will be used in the offense.
Ellison is Crabtree..
Maybe they add a fullback..
There are MORE than enough targets and receptions to go around...
Only on obvious passing downs when we need the long ball.
Quote:
He's 235 pounds before getting into an NFL weight room.
You are making it seem like he's physically incapable. If he only added 10 pounds of mass he'd be slightly less than Kevin Boss.
You dont want Engram to be almost 250lbs,.. You want him to get stronger yes.. He shouldnt gain more that 5 lbs..
People have to face facts.. This is the new NFL. The NFL is about creating mismatches.. Not fitting with the 1970's archaic NFL that we all grew up and became enamored with...
The Giants need a MOVE TE.. They have Ellison and Adams to block.. they dont need another blocker.. they need someone to stretch a defense and attack Cover 2..
You dont win the Kentucky derby on a donkey with a whip.. you drafted a thoroughbred.. let him run.. Dont try and TURN him into something he ISNT..
He's 6'3. 5 pounds is inconsequential. A football player probably sweats out 5 pounds in a September game.
pretty much how he used Tye as the starting TE last year
How much did the early 1990s Cowboys deviate from 21 personnel (2 RB, 2 WR, 1 TE)? The leading receive on Dallas in 1993 beyond Smith, Moose, Irvin, Harper and Novacek (their starting 21 personnel package? That would be Kevin Williams with 20 catches for 151 yards. Were people complaining?
I think it's more likely Engram takes some snaps from Shepard too. Base package of OBJ - Engram - Ellison - Marshall with Eli in the gun gives you a lot of flexibility. Could also motion Engram wide (like the Skins do with Reed) with OBJ in the slot to create confusion. What ends up happening is OBJ doubled and Engram working 1on1 with the S outside.
Shepard wasn't good enough last year to worry about leaving him on the field all the time.
This is false. The scheme does not rely on 11 personnel; the Giants were basically forced into that by virtue of their roster composition last season and that particular personnel grouping representing by far the most talented lineup that the Giants could trot out there.
Everything the Giants have done this offseason indicates that they would prefer much greater lineup diversity on offense going forward.
Agree. Not sure why anyone thinks this will be happening with any frequency in McAdoo's offense. Two TE set, whatever you call Engram in that set, will maybe happen when the running play inside or outside needs to be got. Engram is a willing blocker and will get better over time. Maybe not Mark Bavaro but, on a long play, you're not going to hold two tight ends on the line when one is a seam buster and safety valve who can take the safety cover off the top.
Ellison doesn't have to be in on every set, but if he is then clearly you are limiting the snaps of Shepherd. I think it will be Ellison and Shepherd that split snaps for the most part, and not Engram and Shepherd. Ellison's presence will key the D to the potential for a running play, but also allow a shift to a passing set. His absence, and the presence of Shepherd makes the O a more potent passing set.
I think the issue with the Giants is WHO makes up that group. They have the flexibility to utilize different players in that group and now they have the ability to " be Multiple " in terms of which formation or set they are in.
For example I was looking and thinking..
They could come out in a 12 Personnel package.. One RB, 2 TE's and 2 WR's with Perkins, Ellison, Marshall, OBJ, Engram. Then they could flex Engram out wide into an 11 Personnel package with Engram being a WR. They could also do the reverse.
They can easily use 00, 01, 02(a favorite of the Patriots when they had Hernandez), 10, 11, 12, even 13,
They could use a 20 package with 3 WR's and 2 RB's with Perkins and Vereen on the field could become a 10 with Vereen being used as a WR.. Or they could put Engram in the backfield as an Hback with Perkins OR Vereen. They could put Engram and Vereen in the backfield and then switch to either a 00 or Five WR's with Engram and Vereen becoming receivers.. OR they go to a 10 with Vereen staying in at RB and Engram being the 4th WR
Because of the personnel they should be able to show a defense multiple looks and multiple formation and better disguise what they are doing or change to one formation or another to potentially exploit a defense.
This is also why people worrying about Engram cutting into Shepard's snaps is somewhat overblown. There are at least 6 of these formations that utilize a minimum of 3 receivers. And with Engram being a Move TE or Hback (he has lined up in the backfield in college) both he and Shepard can be on the field at the same time in at least 4 of these formations..
It will be interesting to see what McAdoo does with the tools he has now..
''Here, the Falcons face a first-and-10 on their own 39 yard line, and line up in 13 personnel. Hooper and Toilolo are to the right, with Tamme and Jones to the left. The Raiders have their base 4-3 defense in the game using an under front.''
''The Falcons run a standard boot-action play — at least at the beginning.
Ryan takes the snap and fakes an
>>>>outside zone run to the left<<<< (why I favor Pugh here at OLT, in ddition better in line TE Ellison right makes outside zone left more credible as well)
to Coleman. The QB then peels back and rolls to the right. Jones runs a deep crossing route while Tamme runs a shallow drag. Toilolo blocks down at first with the rest of the line, before releasing to the flat. As the play begins, the Raiders seem to have this covered, which you would expect, given the usage of this play around the NFL.
But there is one more receiver about to enter the fray — Hooper.
''
''After executing his blocking assignment, Hooper then runs a wheel route to the backside, and finds that there are no Raiders on that side of the field.''
The whole thing hinges on the fact that when the Falcons DO run the outside zone run left it kicks ass, the kid gets nice yardage in it (the RB),
....so your "TE"s (and tackles) need to get blocks done.
That said though, remember, all that sounds complex, but may be much, much 'easier' in another sense, than 'stand and catch/absorb all day' was, all last year, was on them (the OL) .
''Here, the Falcons face a first-and-10 on their own 39 yard line, and line up in 13 personnel. Hooper and Toilolo are to the right, with Tamme and Jones to the left. The Raiders have their base 4-3 defense in the game using an under front.''
''The Falcons run a standard boot-action play — at least at the beginning.
Ryan takes the snap and fakes an
>>>>outside zone run to the left<<<< (why I favor Pugh here at OLT, in ddition better in line TE Ellison right makes outside zone left more credible as well)
to Coleman. The QB then peels back and rolls to the right. Jones runs a deep crossing route while Tamme runs a shallow drag. Toilolo blocks down at first with the rest of the line, before releasing to the flat. As the play begins, the Raiders seem to have this covered, which you would expect, given the usage of this play around the NFL.
But there is one more receiver about to enter the fray — Hooper.
''
''After executing his blocking assignment, Hooper then runs a wheel route to the backside, and finds that there are no Raiders on that side of the field.''
Ellison. Adams. Engram
79 for Giants
+1
- VERY high number of attempts in the Red Zone, very high number of success for the Falcons in the red zone, to tell you that they take outside zone rushing seriously.
and, the effect of play action off those from anywhere on the field, and you can see that having 3 'big, wide, slow' tight ends on the field at the same time in no way hurts your passing game.
Their offense was LIGHT YEARS better than ours. Light years.
2 Dallas 149.1 123.7 138.0 159.4 137.4 118.1
3 Tennessee 136.7 103.0 103.0 144.6 128.8 92.8
4 San Francisco 126.2 79.7 62.0 136.5 115.9 96.5
5 Atlanta 117.5 101.3 104.0 119.6 115.1 100.4
6 Oakland 116.8 110.3 64.0 133.0 105.5 91.1
7 Houston 115.9 91.3 105.0 112.8 119.1 108.5
8 Pittsburgh 113.9 134.7 54.0 107.6 119.6 109.8
9 Carolina 113.4 131.7 128.0 119.0 107.8 141.9
10 Philadelphia 113.3 133.7 114.0 121.9 104.8 108.9
11 NY Jets 112.6 118.0 127.0 105.9 119.4 116.8
12 New England 112.2 86.3 104.0 109.3 115.3 82.6
13 Cincinnati 110.6 93.0 153.0 127.6 97.3 111.5
14 Miami 110.4 129.3 52.0 129.2 93.6 93.5
15 New Orleans 108.9 128.3 132.0 106.4 111.4 93.2
16 Chicago 108.4 139.3 183.0 112.5 104.4 115.9
17 Arizona 108.2 98.0 84.0 112.8 103.8 112.1
18 Cleveland 107.0 154.0 231.0 83.6 130.4 95.6
19 Kansas City 106.4 134.0 61.0 103.6 109.6 128.9
20 Washington 106.0 91.7 38.0 107.2 104.8 97.1
21 Seattle 103.8 121.7 101.0 118.1 89.6 135.7
22 Green Bay 103.3 87.0 99.0 98.2 107.8 118.1
23 Jacksonville 101.9 111.0 182.0 86.3 114.1 92.1
24 Indianapolis 101.8 119.0 94.0 90.2 113.2 89.9
25 Tampa Bay 101.0 84.3 112.0 92.6 109.4 135.1
26 San Diego 94.4 78.7 129.0 110.8 78.0 84.9
27 Denver 92.8 88.0 143.0 117.2 68.2 106.1
28 Baltimore 91.4 115.0 72.0 106.6 76.2 92.4
29 NY Giants 87.2 115.0 70.0 88.4 86.1 100.6
30 Detroit 79.9 71.7 49.0 86.5 74.1 83.4
31 Los Angeles 78.2 66.0 52.0 83.1 74.4 122.2
32 Minnesota 75.3 83.7 124.0 78.1 72.5 133.5
Simple. Even with regards to those non play action pass plays.
if you think you can disregard it (the effect of the run game on the pass game) just because you 'don't use a run-to-set-up-pass system'
you would be sorely mistaken.
Quote:
You don't win the Kentucky derby on a donkey with a whip.
No, but you can have a lot of fun on a Saturday night.
Welcome back Cam!
They probably watched the offense last season
Quote:
is a limited intelligence, one trick pony, who cannot design an offense around great physical talent.
They probably watched the offense last season
And had no idea what they were watching.
Quote:
In comment 13457371 Bob in Newburgh said:
Quote:
is a limited intelligence, one trick pony, who cannot design an offense around great physical talent.
They probably watched the offense last season
And had no idea what they were watching.
We had the only Leaping Larry the league has ever known, though. So, it's hard to say how McAdoo will cope with replacing the leaping legend with a mere oversized slot receiver...
or replacing pro bowl Victor Cruz with a true outside receiver...
or having an actual blocking TE...
We'll see if he can cope...
As a result, I think early on or when we are behind we will see more 11 personnel with the following:
OBJ/Marshall/Shepard
Engram
Perkins/Gallman/Vereen
Later in games with leads I'd expect the game plan to be more conservative and the personnel would reflect a need for a strong running game. Probably 12 personnel with Ellison in the game and Shepard out.
Situational running package would probably look the same - 13 or possibly even 14 personnel with Fluker playing at TE between Flowers and Ellison, and Engram at H-back with Marshall at WR. Eli could shift Engram outside and to see if they can draw single coverage on either of the outside WR's or if they draw double-coverage improve the numbers inside on with the run game.
So, while I still expect us to be in 11 personnel a majority of the time, I would also expect that our roster will give us the flexibility to go big while still threatening the edges and deep part of the field.
Eli
good luck.
and, if so, you keep EE in to protect that's still 2 vs 2...
Legit NFL rush LB > EE
not so sure the QB will the Annex Plan