This is a little out of the box for Reese....you'd figure that O'Hara would get a pass, but I guess the fact that it WAS O'Hara really stuck in Reese's craw. click this! - ( New Window )
in this particular case. From a value standpoint, Webb was a solid pickup for the 3rd round but barring any unfortunate circumstances, he's a guy that you hope never plays a meaningful down for the Giants.
I'm not suggesting there was a promising OL there in the 3rd but O'Hara's point is correct. The Giants should be building a team and line around Eli for the next few years, not wasting a pick on a QB.
That's a nice honest answer. And to be fair to O'Hara, what he does for a living is to provide his opinion on how JR does his job. Belichick would approve, everyone's "doing their job".
RE: The bottom line is that O'Hara is right and Jerry is wrong Â
in this particular case. From a value standpoint, Webb was a solid pickup for the 3rd round but barring any unfortunate circumstances, he's a guy that you hope never plays a meaningful down for the Giants.
I'm not suggesting there was a promising OL there in the 3rd but O'Hara's point is correct. The Giants should be building a team and line around Eli for the next few years, not wasting a pick on a QB.
There's NO right or wrong. There can't be. It's an OPINION
in this particular case. From a value standpoint, Webb was a solid pickup for the 3rd round but barring any unfortunate circumstances, he's a guy that you hope never plays a meaningful down for the Giants.
I'm not suggesting there was a promising OL there in the 3rd but O'Hara's point is correct. The Giants should be building a team and line around Eli for the next few years, not wasting a pick on a QB.
Yeah, or not...
We can all argue this until we're blue in the face but I'm going to default to the guys who's job is to build a good roster.
So many teams ignored OL in this draft, or spent late picks on the OL. "Webb is a wasted pick" is coming from someone who has absolutely no idea what our thoughts are on the QB position after 2018.
RE: Appreciate O'Hara's contribution towards our Â
in this particular case. From a value standpoint, Webb was a solid pickup for the 3rd round but barring any unfortunate circumstances, he's a guy that you hope never plays a meaningful down for the Giants.
I'm not suggesting there was a promising OL there in the 3rd but O'Hara's point is correct. The Giants should be building a team and line around Eli for the next few years, not wasting a pick on a QB.
So even if there were no good OL left, Reese should have picked one just because? That is how you destroy a roster. You can argue the Webb pick, but eventually, they will need to find Eli's replacement. If Webb is starting in 4 years, will you still complain about him being a wasted pick?
Everyone thinks it's so easy to build an elite OL Â
he's a guy that you hope never plays a meaningful down for the Giants.
Quite the contrary, actually. I think everyone here hopes Webb becomes the successor after year 2 or year 3 and becomes a great QB. Which is essentially what they drafted him to be. Can people really not see this?
RE: The bottom line is that O'Hara is right and Jerry is wrong Â
in this particular case. From a value standpoint, Webb was a solid pickup for the 3rd round but barring any unfortunate circumstances, he's a guy that you hope never plays a meaningful down for the Giants.
I'm not suggesting there was a promising OL there in the 3rd but O'Hara's point is correct. The Giants should be building a team and line around Eli for the next few years, not wasting a pick on a QB.
Plus there is a promising crop of QBs coming into next year's draft
Taking a developmental QB when your starter is probably here a maximum of three more years. How is this a waste? Even if the Gmen take another QB early in the next couple drafts, it's nice to have options
RE: The bottom line is that O'Hara is right and Jerry is wrong Â
in this particular case. From a value standpoint, Webb was a solid pickup for the 3rd round but barring any unfortunate circumstances, he's a guy that you hope never plays a meaningful down for the Giants.
You can argue that this made sense for the Nassib pick.
Now we have a 36 year old QB who may or may not have quietly informed the team of how much longer he intends to play. I'd put money on the Giants drafting him with different expectations.
Select QBs in the draft with a starter in place, Packers did it famously with Rodgers. Patriots do it a lot and there "smart" when they do it. I am not in the wasted pick camp. A development QB taken that high is fine, it does 2 things. Keep in mind these are both potential scenarios nothing is ever a given. He develops you flip him for a higher pick if Eli is still the guy in 2-3 years. He develops , Eli is not the guy for whatever reason in 2-3 years you have the next guy in your room and system already and don't have to 1. Tank a season or 2. Make a ridiculous trade for a high pick where your sacrificing multiple future high picks. The trades for Mahomes and Watson were very troubling for me. The trade the Bears made for 2nd pick and Trubisky was just stupid, remind me to invite their GM to a poker game cause they should have called the 49ers bluff on that one.
He has a right to his opinion but this time I believe Jerry is right. We all know when you reach for a guy bad things happen. I absolutely love and am more hopeful for the three guys we picked up in round 6 and UDFA than I would have been reading for a guy in round three.
Jerry could have thought "job security", instead he saw someone special that represented great value (for the future) and he went there.
We are only "result orientated" and that's reasonable. It's more nuanced but there's other ways of measuring a pick (or, for that matter) any decision and that's not by results but by the information available at the time.
Getting a QB in the third round is a long shot, but it's a great gamble. Dynasties are built on those rare instances of finding an NFL QB late in the draft...see Brady, Wilson etc. If it's a trusim: the most valuable commodity in sports is and NFL QB, that's trumped by "and NFL QB that's economically acquired.
The alternative to a third rounder now is to give up most of your draft to get one later. And even so the chances of hitting the jackpot are about 50% with top five picks.
Wonderful courageous and visionary move by Jerry - no matter how it turns out.
gave up to move up 1 spot in the draft to take their QB? That could be us but worse in a few years and there may not be an Eli in that draft that would be worth whatever ransom we pay.
We took a shot on a guy with high upside in the 3rd round without having to give any extra assets to obtain which also allows him to sit for 2 years atleast and learn everything he possibly can.
How this strategy isn't supported is beyond me.
RE: RE: The bottom line is that O'Hara is right and Jerry is wrong Â
he's a guy that you hope never plays a meaningful down for the Giants.
Quite the contrary, actually. I think everyone here hopes Webb becomes the successor after year 2 or year 3 and becomes a great QB. Which is essentially what they drafted him to be. Can people really not see this?
Exactly. I like Eli and all and he's been a good QB and good man while with the Giants... but I'd love it if Webb beat him out THIS year. I'd trade Eli to the Broncos for their 1st round pick and be happy to be set at the position for the next decade at least.
***Disclaimer*** I'm not suggesting that Webb has chance in hell of unseating Eli by the way. But if Webb was somehow beating out Eli that means that Webb is playing lights out and who wouldn't want to see that?
gave up to move up 1 spot in the draft to take their QB? That could be us but worse in a few years and there may not be an Eli in that draft that would be worth whatever ransom we pay.
We took a shot on a guy with high upside in the 3rd round without having to give any extra assets to obtain which also allows him to sit for 2 years atleast and learn everything he possibly can.
How this strategy isn't supported is beyond me.
funny steelers did the exact same thing and not one person is criticising them
Have any chance to win the starting job this year. None whatsoever. Webb maybe has a chance next year if Eli craps in his pants this year with 20 more stupid pics and 6 fumbles to go with that.
same as O'Hara. A two down run stuffer could be found later. The OL is weak and there is no depth. Reese really better hope a vet OL is cut the Giants can sign.
But Reese is correct. He might be criticized on principal for selecting a Qb early when there were other quality players on the board in a win now season. It's a little much though to criticize him for reaching on a lineman they didn't feel comfortable taking. There are far more early round tackle prospects who bust in the NFL than who develop into even solid starters. For every Lewan or Conklin there are five highly lauded college players like Joekel, Fluker, and Robinson, who bombed out because their skills were overrated, they got injured, or their strengths didn't match the offensive system that selected them and on and on. Reese knows what McAdoo wants, what the position coaches like Solari are looking for, and what the scouts are seeing, and O'hara doesn't.
Have any chance to win the starting job this year. None whatsoever. Webb maybe has a chance next year if Eli craps in his pants this year with 20 more stupid pics and 6 fumbles to go with that.
Wow... I even said I'm not suggesting it... and it was still missed. Impressive.
are also known to stockpile their draft picks so picking a qb is not a "wasted" pick.
If JR had traded down with our first round pick he may well have still got Engram + the qb in the third + one of the six cb's picked in the third round subsequent to our original pick.
Now that still doesn't help when it comes to the OL but at least he would have been drafting into the strength of the draft and bolstered our secondary while getting his prospective qb of the future.
I don't have a problem with what JR did with his sixth round choice nor paying a little extra for Wheeler and and the other UDFA's.
My issue with JR and his approach to the draft is he never trades down and he predictably spends a high draft choice on a position that got vacated in FA e.g. using a second for a dt.
JR may well have obtained a rotational dt with a lower choice e.g. third, fourth or fifth round instead of spending a second on a guy that will probably leave for more $ after four years
Reese does not select players in a vacuum. There are plenty of others Â
"Reese called forcing an early pick on a position the "cardinal sin" in the NFL draft. Reports surfaced before the draft confirming that the Giants were not impressed with the 2017 offensive line class."
He's absolutely right.
RE: RE: Appreciate O'Hara's contribution towards our Â
you can't just push the trade down button. You need interested teams and you need to be properly compensated for the loss in what would be the higher rated player.
There were also atleast a couple teams interested in Engram, we likely don't get him later in the draft, possibly even just a few spots later.
The hindsight stuff after we all see how the draft went is pointless. There's absolutely no way to predict the domino effect of the Giants giving up 23 in a tradeback and what would have happened from there.
are also known to stockpile their draft picks so picking a qb is not a "wasted" pick.
If JR had traded down with our first round pick he may well have still got Engram + the qb in the third + one of the six cb's picked in the third round subsequent to our original pick.
Now that still doesn't help when it comes to the OL but at least he would have been drafting into the strength of the draft and bolstered our secondary while getting his prospective qb of the future.
I don't have a problem with what JR did with his sixth round choice nor paying a little extra for Wheeler and and the other UDFA's.
My issue with JR and his approach to the draft is he never trades down and he predictably spends a high draft choice on a position that got vacated in FA e.g. using a second for a dt.
JR may well have obtained a rotational dt with a lower choice e.g. third, fourth or fifth round instead of spending a second on a guy that will probably leave for more $ after four years
I've read in a few places that had the Giants traded down it's possible that both the Steelers or the Falcons were likely to pick Engram. So no, trading down wasn't an option if they wanted to get the man they wanted.
Regarding your issue with Reese, I guess I just don't understand why some are bothered that Reese has never traded down? It's like the whole 'he doesn't care about the o-line because he didn't draft any in the first 3 rounds' argument... it's like some of you want him to do it just to do it... and I don't see the logic in that. The draft is about opportunity meeting value and, as I pointed out in my first paragraph, yeah he had the 'opportunity' to trade down... but would the 'value' of doing so match? Reese and the Giants didn't think so at the time and after hearing that a few teams after them had their eye on Engram it appears they were right.
at the time that O'Hara made his comments, the majority of BBI Â
Now a few days post draft, the media covering the Giants and the fans see a larger picture and see that the Giants did in fact address the Oline.
Unfortunately, with the advent of social media, O'Hara's comments last long after they were made, and are now overcome by events since they were made. That won't stop media and fans alike from using the comment over and over again.
The addition of Bisnasty, Wheeler, and Dunker (all had 4th or 5th round grades) does address the line, creating depth and competition at the tackle position and Guard.
Also, the Giants did sign DJ Fluker to address the right side.
There was not a franchise Left Tackle in the draft at all, there was no franchise left tackle in Free Agency that the Giants could get. Not if the team was to re-sign JPP and others given the cap.
The line was addresses. The Giants did not over reach in a weak draft class. Depth and competition exists.
I am comfortable saying the Giants addressed the line, just not in splashy or dramatic style. The Giants did it their way.
Frustration comes more from years of poor selection of OL. He was part of a very good OL for few years. With that came great pride in that unit. To see for over five years of poor play from the OL. Has stuck in his gut. Which I'm sure holds true for all of those guys from his old unit. O'Hara just has the platform to voice it
"Reese called forcing an early pick on a position the "cardinal sin" in the NFL draft. Reports surfaced before the draft confirming that the Giants were not impressed with the 2017 offensive line class."
He's absolutely right.
And evidently, the whole league felt that way judging by the number of OL drafted in the first few rounds (and overall)this year. O'Hara's criticism would've been more valid if the O-line crop was a talented and deep as the DB crop (or TE crop for that matter). Then you could say 'You couldn't even get ONE of those guys?'. But that wasn't the case... and the Giants weren't the only team.
And Reese is right that forcing a pick is the cardinal sin in the NFL draft. O'Hara sounds like a fan and that's ok but if he's going to act like a fan, and not a professional journalist, then he can catch some flack for it.
RE: at the time that O'Hara made his comments, the majority of BBI Â
It seemed to be a 'don't plan for life after Eli, give him what he needs' type complaint. Either that, or just the general lack of investment in OL type stuff.
Regardless, there's no way to make his logic stick. The Webb move wasn't so much a post-Eli pick as it was a gamble that doubles as insurance should Eli get hurt. The only other QBs on the roster are Geno Smith and Josh Johnson, not like we've got a lot of options should the unthinkable happen.
If he's complaining about OL investment, or building up the team to win now vs. later, it's a 3rd round pick in an OL weak draft. You're not getting help that could start, and certainly not OL help that could start. Immediate impact from that pick minimal regardless of position, albeit lower given that it's a QB.
So I guess I just don't get the point on there being a trade down button.
If there is a will to obtain additional picks a partner can be found imo
Seattle never has a problem finding a partner to trade down nor NE
I guess I am looking at JR's overall draft philosophy and find it wanting compared to some of the above teams
The more picks accumulated the more you spread your risk on any specific pick
If we trade down maybe we get Engram maybe we don't. But we would have gotten additional picks and maybe we wouldn't be looking at Valentino Blake and Michael Hunter as our cb's late season should our starters get dinged
...is that one key reason for the OL's rapid decline after 2008 was the team's failure to groom successors to aging vets like O'Hara, while the front office doubled down on the incumbents with extensions for Snee and O'Hara.
Coughlin was unstintingly loyal to O'Hara in 2009 and 2010, when his wheels were coming off. How did that turn out?
I'm sure he watched film on all the OLine prospects if not went to see games. I'm sure he interviewed many of them and checked their backgrounds and injury. I'm sure he reviewed their physical and medical and mental histories and I'm sure he talked to their coaches or coaches who coached against the Oline prospects. So, O'Hara, who was a good center on a very good Giants Oline is bringing alot to the table (NOT).
Here is the problem that I have with Reese on this... Â
Just follow the progression here....
1. The O-line sucked last year and you can argue this is why our offense struggled and why we got bitch slapped in the playoffs.
2. Reese knew this would be a weak draft for the O-line. It is not as if he got the list of prospects the night before the draft. They knew this before the 2016 season even started.
3. Knowing the O-line position was not a strong one, he still did not truly address this BIGGEST NEED for our team via free agency.
I am not going to kill Jerry for not drafting a guy high. I agree with him about not reaching for a need 100%. What I will criticize him for is if we enter camp this July with a sub par O-line. Still some free agent moves to potentially make but the options are even slimmer now.
So I guess I just don't get the point on there being a trade down button.
If there is a will to obtain additional picks a partner can be found imo
Seattle never has a problem finding a partner to trade down nor NE
I guess I am looking at JR's overall draft philosophy and find it wanting compared to some of the above teams
The more picks accumulated the more you spread your risk on any specific pick
If we trade down maybe we get Engram maybe we don't. But we would have gotten additional picks and maybe we wouldn't be looking at Valentino Blake and Michael Hunter as our cb's late season should our starters get dinged
...is that one key reason for the OL's rapid decline after 2008 was the team's failure to groom successors to aging vets like O'Hara, while the front office doubled down on the incumbents with extensions for Snee and O'Hara.
Coughlin was unstintingly loyal to O'Hara in 2009 and 2010, when his wheels were coming off. How did that turn out?
Great point! If O'Hara... or any of his o-line mates... were still playing would he be yelling 'Get some guys in here who could potentially take my job!'?
RE: Here is the problem that I have with Reese on this... Â
Just follow the progression here....
1. The O-line sucked last year and you can argue this is why our offense struggled and why we got bitch slapped in the playoffs.
2. Reese knew this would be a weak draft for the O-line. It is not as if he got the list of prospects the night before the draft. They knew this before the 2016 season even started.
3. Knowing the O-line position was not a strong one, he still did not truly address this BIGGEST NEED for our team via free agency.
I am not going to kill Jerry for not drafting a guy high. I agree with him about not reaching for a need 100%. What I will criticize him for is if we enter camp this July with a sub par O-line. Still some free agent moves to potentially make but the options are even slimmer now.
The biggest need being addressed in the offseason would have resulted in paying a ton of money for a 35 year old player. This same decision could have also resulted in losing out on what kept our defense as good as it was last year.
RE: Here is the problem that I have with Reese on this... Â
Just follow the progression here....
1. The O-line sucked last year and you can argue this is why our offense struggled and why we got bitch slapped in the playoffs.
2. Reese knew this would be a weak draft for the O-line. It is not as if he got the list of prospects the night before the draft. They knew this before the 2016 season even started.
3. Knowing the O-line position was not a strong one, he still did not truly address this BIGGEST NEED for our team via free agency.
I am not going to kill Jerry for not drafting a guy high. I agree with him about not reaching for a need 100%. What I will criticize him for is if we enter camp this July with a sub par O-line. Still some free agent moves to potentially make but the options are even slimmer now.
Who besides Zeitler and Whitworth (two players the Giants did go after I believe... I know there was some reported interest in Whitworth but not as sure about Zeitler) would you have wanted Reese to go after and would you have been ok with signing them for what they received? Keep in mind, we probably wouldn't have JPP back (at the least). Spotrac link to FA Olineman - ( New Window )
So I guess I just don't get the point on there being a trade down button.
If there is a will to obtain additional picks a partner can be found imo
Seattle never has a problem finding a partner to trade down nor NE
I guess I am looking at JR's overall draft philosophy and find it wanting compared to some of the above teams
The more picks accumulated the more you spread your risk on any specific pick
If we trade down maybe we get Engram maybe we don't. But we would have gotten additional picks and maybe we wouldn't be looking at Valentino Blake and Michael Hunter as our cb's late season should our starters get dinged
Finding a partner and being happy with your compensation are two different things. I really don't know why people are obsessed with trading down anyway, you are almost guaranteed to end up with a player who's rated lower with less of a chance of being a good NFL player.
36 come playoff time. I know there are plenty of iron man OLmen over the years but pushing all of your chips in with him is almost a ticking timebomb scenario. That strategy reeks of desperation and I'm glad we didn't go that route.
I think the Webb pick comes at the right time and was seemingly a good value plus we didn't trade picks to get him. I think Eli has 2 years left at best as many QBs see a decline at his age. Keeping a guy too long doesn't work.
If Webb isn't the guy, next year is supposed to be a good QB draft as well.
As for the OL, the draft itself shows how all 32 teams felt about the quality. They didnt feel it was worth the picks. Now some may turn out to be good picks but the OT we drafted seems like a great value so that should be commended for not over drafting a guy. Time will tell.
As for O'Hara, he just needed to have something to say. At worst our OL is the same as last year. With improvement from a young Flowers and health for Pugh & Richburg we could be much improved. Fluker is an unknown. If he can find himself we may have something there or at least depth.
RE: The bottom line is that O'Hara is right and Jerry is wrong Â
in this particular case. From a value standpoint, Webb was a solid pickup for the 3rd round but barring any unfortunate circumstances, he's a guy that you hope never plays a meaningful down for the Giants.
I'm not suggesting there was a promising OL there in the 3rd but O'Hara's point is correct. The Giants should be building a team and line around Eli for the next few years, not wasting a pick on a QB.
The Giants put their current roster on the board against potential draftees. If there were no OL prospects who were graded highly enough that they would have unseated one of the starters, how is that any different than a QB that won't unseat the starter?
You build your team by adding players that improve your roster the most, at whatever position that may be. To flat out ignore the QB position because you have one in place already is reckless, and even more so when that QB is at an age when many players begin to decline.
As for "he's a guy that you hope never plays a meaningful down for the Giants," from the moment Webb signs his contract, he becomes the QB who is signed the farthest into the future for the Giants. I don't see how anyone can declare with certainty that the Giants don't envision him ever playing a meaningful down.
Hopefully O'hara isn't banned from the Giants Post Game Show Â
trading down has worked out well with Seattle and NE
I wouldn't say they are obsessed. Would you?
All I am saying is draft into the strength of the draft
This draft was strong in db's.
We need db's. I think there is consensus on this point.
We need OL. I think there is consensus on this point.
This draft was not strong in OL.
Six quality cb's were drafted in the third round after our qb pick.
If we had an additional third round pick chances are pretty good we could have obtained one of those cb's while still grabbing the qb that JR/Mac were obsessed with.
players available in the 3rd round and didn't see them starting over the current crop, then how is that improving the team for "now" any more than drafting the QB?
Seattle never has a problem finding a partner to trade down nor NE
The one main criticism of NE is their draft strategy. Ironically, their best pick outside the 3rd round was probably Aaron Hernandez in the 4th, or Julian Edelman in the 7th. Apart from those two in the past 10 years, you're looking at not much better results than the Giants.
But that's the reality of the draft - extra picks, especially past the 3rd round are usually negligible for the most part, which is why there aren't so many compensatory picks that end up becoming superstars.
While the rigidity of never trading down surely has faults, let's not make it seem like not doing so is a terrible strategy - the vast majority of time a trade down simply isn't worth it - especially if you aren't getting the maximum value from the additional picks.
UCONN
ChicagoMarty : 10:53 am : link : reply
trading down has worked out well with Seattle and NE
Don't confuse SB success by NE, with drafting success. Please elaborate on which lower round picks accumulated through trade downs are giving them the image as draft experts?
not sure what to tell you. You are quoting 2 teams; 1 with a the best coach of all time who doesn't operate the same way the rest of the NFL does (and as pointed out, doesn't draft terribly well in the mid rounds) and Seattle who has done well with their picks over the years but nothing sticks out as extraordinary.
I just don't know why Reese not trading back is a barometer of success or failure.
O'Hara enters the league as an undrafted free agent, then joins the Giants and wins championships and gets to the Pro Bowl. Great resume, terrific achievements. Ton of respect for him.
However, isn't it a bit odd to criticize the Giants for not selecting OL early enough. I would thing that O'hara, perhaps more than anyone, might appreciate that there might be value in the three new OL drafted in the sixth round or below. It's kind of like Tom Brady that selecting a QB below the first round is a waste of a pick.
will blame everyone and find every excuse for the OL situation.. this wasn't the first off season where we knew we had OL issues.. it was the 5th in a row..
will blame everyone and find every excuse for the OL situation.. this wasn't the first off season where we knew we had OL issues.. it was the 5th in a row..
will blame everyone and find every excuse for the OL situation.. this wasn't the first off season where we knew we had OL issues.. it was the 5th in a row..
We have (2) #1s and a #2 on the starting OL.
None are good or consistent.. Just because you have spent the resources doesn't mean the OL is fixed.. I am asking for a solution not an excuse.. all this talk about the Pats.. they fixed the OL in 1 season.. last season their OL was horrible.. This season it was good..
One could even describe the most likely makeup of the starting OL as three first-round picks (Pugh, Flowers and Fluker from SDG), a second-rounder (Richburg) and a third-rounder (Jerry from MIA).
Of course, draft pedigree is no guarantee of quality, but there's obviously a lot of physical ability in Solari's room. The rookies seem to bring a fair amount of talent too, though they all have warts that marred their standing in the Draft.
will blame everyone and find every excuse for the OL situation.. this wasn't the first off season where we knew we had OL issues.. it was the 5th in a row..
We have (2) #1s and a #2 on the starting OL.
None are good or consistent.. Just because you have spent the resources doesn't mean the OL is fixed.. I am asking for a solution not an excuse.. all this talk about the Pats.. they fixed the OL in 1 season.. last season their OL was horrible.. This season it was good..
Pugh and Richburg arent good?
In any event, there is no guarantee that a rookie OL would fix the OL issues either, so the cuts at O'Hara's criticism. The next OL picked after 23 was at 32, and that even at 32 I saw some criticism of that as an overdraft. The value wasnt there. #2 filled a bigger hole, DT. By the 3rd round if you're bitching that an immediate OL hold (tackle, really) could have been filled out of this draft, you're nuts. You're almost certainly arguing that "an OL" should have been drafted rather than a specific OL.
down and still taken engram but the fact was atlanta was trying to trade up to get engram,the giants were linked with njoku or bolles etc and they didnt think the giants would pick him
but make no mistake had they traded down engram would have been a falcon,they could have taken njoku and passed as did the giants,njoku arguably had the better upside but engram had better speed,ran better routes and was far more nfl ready the falcons clearly thought he was a suitable replacement for gonzales which makes me feel all the better they drafted him where they did
i was surprised by the venom of ohara's criticism had he said something along the lines of i thought they would have drafted a higher OL than they did we will see a few years from now which was the right call but he didnt he called it a wasted pick without seeing him play a down
i wanted garcia where they took webb and they would have got him,likely still have got him in round 4 if the pats didnt trade up a pick ahead of them to grab him also
but when you see the strength of his arm which was never that good in eli,and look at the cold weather he will need that strength in giants stadium late in the season if he someday replaces manning and if he does a 3rd round pick with no trade up is a bargain
i dont want the post manning era to be anything like the post simms one where they lurched from 1 project QB to another for years. if this works its genius they smooth the edges and fill the holes in webbs game while he watches manning.if not its a third round pick not a first plus traded picks for the same type of guy years from now.
alternatively "hope" for a 3-13 record and then hope theres a QB they like when the draft rolls around and given the yearly scramble at QB position even that might not get them eli's successor either.
that the Webb pick should have been an OL needs to name the player, not just insist that the pick should have been an OL.
Webb was the #87 pick. There was not an OL selected after Webb for an astonishing 28 more picks, until Arizona took Dorian Johnson, a guard, at 115. A tackle didnt go until 129, OAK's David Sharpe. Our need is tackle. We should have reached by more than a round in a bad OL draft to take Sharpe?
You cant just say "should have taken an OL". You have to have names.
RE: RE: Here is the problem that I have with Reese on this... Â
3. Knowing the O-line position was not a strong one, he still did not truly address this BIGGEST NEED for our team via free agency.
Who did you want him to sign as a FA and how much did you want him to pay?
Bill, my response is to you, T-Bone and UConn since you all replied to my comment in a similar fashion....
It is not up to me to say WHO we should have signed, what we would pay them and who we would not sign (at another position) as a result of signing an O-lineman. If I could figure all of that math out for you then I should be the GM. I am not the GM. However, I (as well as all of you) know enough about this sport to know that our O-line sucks balls and was the primary reason for our failure last year. So, it is on the GM to find a way to get that O-line fixed... period.
I think that I referenced in my earlier post that there is still time so the jury is still out on all of this. Plus, they apparently have some confidence in the guys who are here so then there is the "how effective are these coaches" aspect of it.
In the end, if this O-line blows again after the first few games and we cannot run the ball then his off season will be a failure with the inability to fix our number one need. Conversely, if the O-line puts things together and they end up being an average O-line then give Jerry some credit. However, for now and on paper this is the same group that could not get it done last year with the same left tackle that was ranked worst in the league protecting the blind side of our $20 million QB.
will blame everyone and find every excuse for the OL situation.. this wasn't the first off season where we knew we had OL issues.. it was the 5th in a row..
We have (2) #1s and a #2 on the starting OL.
None are good or consistent.. Just because you have spent the resources doesn't mean the OL is fixed.. I am asking for a solution not an excuse.. all this talk about the Pats.. they fixed the OL in 1 season.. last season their OL was horrible.. This season it was good..
Pugh and Richburg arent good?
In any event, there is no guarantee that a rookie OL would fix the OL issues either, so the cuts at O'Hara's criticism. The next OL picked after 23 was at 32, and that even at 32 I saw some criticism of that as an overdraft. The value wasnt there. #2 filled a bigger hole, DT. By the 3rd round if you're bitching that an immediate OL hold (tackle, really) could have been filled out of this draft, you're nuts. You're almost certainly arguing that "an OL" should have been drafted rather than a specific OL.
they are good but not consistent.. and niether are as good as the old lineman like Snee, O'Hara or even Dhiel.. but I don't want to blame those 2 or even bring them in because they are the best we have and if we had 5 like them then the OL would be more than acceptable.. but the problem still remains OL as a unit suck..
will blame everyone and find every excuse for the OL situation.. this wasn't the first off season where we knew we had OL issues.. it was the 5th in a row..
We have (2) #1s and a #2 on the starting OL.
None are good or consistent.. Just because you have spent the resources doesn't mean the OL is fixed.. I am asking for a solution not an excuse.. all this talk about the Pats.. they fixed the OL in 1 season.. last season their OL was horrible.. This season it was good..
So basically what you are saying is that Reese and his staff should all be fired because the picks and FA$$ he has invested in the OL over the last 5 seasons hasnt produced results. Why would you want the same guy, who hasnt been able to fix it, still trying to?
If thats not what you're saying then what would you have done this offseason?
2012 season - OL sucks because of TC's reluctance to release aging OL
2013 - Killbride sucks and thats why we have a horrendous OL.
2014 - TC sucks and his reluctance to let Snee go was the reason why the OL is bad.
2015 - TC sucks because in-spite of horrendous OL play we lost games because of his game management
2016 - Eli sucks and we have solved the problem because we have 4 awesome targets now. Besides what else could we have done the draft class was horrible..
None the less from 2012 to now he hasn't found 5 stable OL to help Eli.. I don't mind the Webb Pick but don't let JR go blameless and blame Eli, TC and everyone else thats gone.. JR is the main person responsible for the horrendous OL play over the past 5 years..
but we ran the ball when Perkins took over WITH an injured Richburg. And that was while there was no threat opposite Beckham so putting 8 or even 9 in the box was a regular occurrence.
3. Knowing the O-line position was not a strong one, he still did not truly address this BIGGEST NEED for our team via free agency.
Who did you want him to sign as a FA and how much did you want him to pay?
Bill, my response is to you, T-Bone and UConn since you all replied to my comment in a similar fashion....
It is not up to me to say WHO we should have signed, what we would pay them and who we would not sign (at another position) as a result of signing an O-lineman. If I could figure all of that math out for you then I should be the GM. I am not the GM. However, I (as well as all of you) know enough about this sport to know that our O-line sucks balls and was the primary reason for our failure last year. So, it is on the GM to find a way to get that O-line fixed... period.
I think that I referenced in my earlier post that there is still time so the jury is still out on all of this. Plus, they apparently have some confidence in the guys who are here so then there is the "how effective are these coaches" aspect of it.
In the end, if this O-line blows again after the first few games and we cannot run the ball then his off season will be a failure with the inability to fix our number one need. Conversely, if the O-line puts things together and they end up being an average O-line then give Jerry some credit. However, for now and on paper this is the same group that could not get it done last year with the same left tackle that was ranked worst in the league protecting the blind side of our $20 million QB.
Let's see what happens
Will the off-season had been a failure if the team wins the Super Bowl again? Or makes it to the NFC Championship game?
Look... you're making it sound like Reese hasn't attempted to try to fix the line. He's invested some high draft choices and signed some FAs (while going after others and not willing to pay the price for them... which most would agree with by the way) to try and fix the problem. The Giants aren't the only team with an O-line problem... it's a league-wide issue. There's a dearth of O-line talent and everyone's trying to grab as many good ones as they can because they're rare.
He's trying. Whether he's doing a good job of trying is certainly debatable but what can't be debated is that he's trying.
fuck do you keep saying "the Reese we trust crowd", as if not wanting to fire the GM is something that should be criticized?
I'd rather trust the GM of a professional football team that has 2 SB wins in the past decade that some asswipe who calls respected coaches "Killdrive" and assorted shit like that.
there isn't a single person on this board who thinks Reese is blameless. Talk about an exaggeration.
Yeah. Flowers is squarely on JR. I think we've underinvested in OL as JR tries to (1) cheap out in some positions to spend more assets at playmaking positions, and (2) dig out from a solid half-decade of a really terrible injury crisis that was unique in scale to the Giants.
fuck do you keep saying "the Reese we trust crowd", as if not wanting to fire the GM is something that should be criticized?
I'd rather trust the GM of a professional football team that has 2 SB wins in the past decade that some asswipe who calls respected coaches "Killdrive" and assorted shit like that.
The League vindicated Reese's comments on the OL in the 2017 Draft. Lowest amount picked in the common draft and a huge majority in third round or later. There will be some OL from this class that will be excellent, as every year proves, but which of these are not obvious to the NFL FOs as a whole.
fuck do you keep saying "the Reese we trust crowd", as if not wanting to fire the GM is something that should be criticized?
I'd rather trust the GM of a professional football team that has 2 SB wins in the past decade that some asswipe who calls respected coaches "Killdrive" and assorted shit like that.
I don't call him Killbride.. it was me saying that the in reese we trust crowd saying that.. Also not suggesting we fire him.. but every thread this week has been blaming guys like Eli and not OHara and TC.. but the fact is this is JRs problem and he is the most blame worthy..
fuck do you keep saying "the Reese we trust crowd", as if not wanting to fire the GM is something that should be criticized?
I'd rather trust the GM of a professional football team that has 2 SB wins in the past decade that some asswipe who calls respected coaches "Killdrive" and assorted shit like that.
I don't call him Killbride.. it was me saying that the in reese we trust crowd saying that.. Also not suggesting we fire him.. but every thread this week has been blaming guys like Eli and not OHara and TC.. but the fact is this is JRs problem and he is the most blame worthy..
there isn't a single person on this board who thinks Reese is blameless. Talk about an exaggeration.
Yeah. Flowers is squarely on JR. I think we've underinvested in OL as JR tries to (1) cheap out in some positions to spend more assets at playmaking positions, and (2) dig out from a solid half-decade of a really terrible injury crisis that was unique in scale to the Giants.
I don't agree we've underinvested. I recall back in 2011 the Giants had the 2nd most invested in the OL and it was awful.
We also have two 1sts and a second along the line. That should be good enough for an average OL.
Screwed Reese -- I think he thought Scherff'd be there at #9 and when he wasn't he panicked and took Flowers. Of course he'd never admit that but I still think the Giants front office scrambled after the Redskins pick.
Screwed Reese -- I think he thought Scherff'd be there at #9 and when he wasn't he panicked and took Flowers. Of course he'd never admit that but I still think the Giants front office scrambled after the Redskins pick.
What about this FO's selections over the years makes you think that? They've got people tiered up, when the time comes they know they're not picking for immediate need if the player isn't towards the top of the tier.
Besides - with only 8 picks ahead of them there weren't exactly a lot of permutations to be prepared for, I'm sure they had already considered the possibility Scherff would be gone.
If Flowers is ultimately a failure, it's on their scouting.
RE: Hopefully O'hara isn't banned from the Giants Post Game Show Â
Is banking on Flowers and Hart, is that smart, I am not so sure, but we'll find out. As far as the draft goes, Reese has been doing very good the last few years and I think he did very good once again. I have a gut feeling that one of the three Olinemen, the draft pick and two Undrafted free agents are going to hit big also, and let's not forget that Fluker could turn out to be a very good addition. So I am not as worried about the Oline as I was last season and less then the year before because he is right, these guys have now played and have experience, and are extremely young.
Maybe they will never be as good as they were drafted, but if Flowers and Fluker turned out to be solid players, then the Oline will not be so bad at all.
because of the poor OL class but he didn't do anything last year either and the view of Flowers still does not look good.
Fact is, and this is where I agree with O'Hara, the OL has been left to rot for as long as Reese has been the GM. We plugged in David Baas but when Snee and McKenzie left we did virtually nothing except sign 2nd/3rd tier guys to fill in.
The OL for our two SBs was basically put together by EA except for Baas and then Kevin Boothe who was another 2nd tier guy. This tells me that O'Hara's comments sting and I think, if the OL does not improve, it will be Reese's undoing. As Pat Traina said over the weekend, the Giants are still paying for the bad drafts from 2010-13 in particular and the failure of those drafts to produce any long term Giants especially on the offensive line.
All things being equal, we have addressed our WR/slot and now TE talent. Our RB situation seems to be better. We've even added a QB. Our D has been fixed and looks to be even stronger this year.
What is the only area that continues to be left up to a HUGE question mark...the OL.
there isn't a single person on this board who thinks Reese is blameless. Talk about an exaggeration.
Yeah. Flowers is squarely on JR. I think we've underinvested in OL as JR tries to (1) cheap out in some positions to spend more assets at playmaking positions, and (2) dig out from a solid half-decade of a really terrible injury crisis that was unique in scale to the Giants.
I don't agree we've underinvested. I recall back in 2011 the Giants had the 2nd most invested in the OL and it was awful.
We also have two 1sts and a second along the line. That should be good enough for an average OL.
I agree on the high end of the draft. I think we've been going awful cheap on UFA vets in the face of big OL problems. Fluker on a make-good. Luke warm bodies the year before. Newhouse for 3/2 the year before. 2014 we signed Schwartz for 16/4, no one the year before that.
Schwartz was the only $2+ million player, and he didnt get a rich contract. I'd be curious to see what our OL spend has been vs. other teams.
Screwed Reese -- I think he thought Scherff'd be there at #9 and when he wasn't he panicked and took Flowers. Of course he'd never admit that but I still think the Giants front office scrambled after the Redskins pick.
Why is it that when a player we might be/are interested in gets taken before we pick that everyone (media included) seems to use that as a point of criticism or panic against Reese. Do you honestly think they didnt game plan 10 players to take in that draft? Same shit with Doug Martin, and a few guys this year, and the DE/LB Chicago took, and Conklin etc.
Every time a highly rated prospect would would fill a Giants need gets taken, people envision pandemonium in the Giants war room. Based on what?
RE: The bottom line is that O'Hara is right and Jerry is wrong Â
in this particular case. From a value standpoint, Webb was a solid pickup for the 3rd round but barring any unfortunate circumstances, he's a guy that you hope never plays a meaningful down for the Giants.
I'm not suggesting there was a promising OL there in the 3rd but O'Hara's point is correct. The Giants should be building a team and line around Eli for the next few years, not wasting a pick on a QB.
Actually, I hope Webb plays very meaningful downs for many, many years with the Giants, when his time comes.
However, if the OL once again sucks, then I think you have to start to think about making changes in management personnel.
Reese and Co justifiably received a ton of criticism for the OL last year. They ignored the critique and doubled down on the idea that with continuity and young guys getting better, this OL will get significantly better.
I trust that they know what they are doing since they see these guys in practice and on film. And like Jerry says it is what they do for a living. But if they are wrong again and the OL is really bad, I think changes have to be made.
Screwed Reese -- I think he thought Scherff'd be there at #9 and when he wasn't he panicked and took Flowers. Of course he'd never admit that but I still think the Giants front office scrambled after the Redskins pick.
Yes. They panicked and scrambled so much that they hardly used any of their allotted time to get their pick of Flowers in. They may have preferred Scherf - we'll never really know - but they weren't panicking or scrambling when they drafted Flowers.
Screwed Reese -- I think he thought Scherff'd be there at #9 and when he wasn't he panicked and took Flowers. Of course he'd never admit that but I still think the Giants front office scrambled after the Redskins pick.
Yes. They panicked and scrambled so much that they hardly used any of their allotted time to get their pick of Flowers in. They may have preferred Scherf - we'll never really know - but they weren't panicking or scrambling when they drafted Flowers.
No I don't think they panicked. Which makes it more disturbing.
that after investing so many hundreds our hours on research and money, and the time scouts go over analyzing so many players that they honestly believe that if ONE player gets picked a team like they completely panic..
I'm pretty sure the Giants have a system where they grade players and evaluate need over BPA and make decisions. They let the scouts and work they did in the previous year speak for itself.
will blame everyone and find every excuse for the OL situation.. this wasn't the first off season where we knew we had OL issues.. it was the 5th in a row..
We have (2) #1s and a #2 on the starting OL.
None are good or consistent.. Just because you have spent the resources doesn't mean the OL is fixed.. I am asking for a solution not an excuse.. all this talk about the Pats.. they fixed the OL in 1 season.. last season their OL was horrible.. This season it was good..
So basically what you are saying is that Reese and his staff should all be fired because the picks and FA$$ he has invested in the OL over the last 5 seasons hasnt produced results. Why would you want the same guy, who hasnt been able to fix it, still trying to?
If thats not what you're saying then what would you have done this offseason?
As a GM i would value the line more than positional players and brought in Joe Thomas for a third round or swap our 2nd with their third or something.. I would have tried to get Alex mack the year before that.. I would've told my team to look for a better option than a completely unpolished tackle with bad tape against stud DEs in college.. When we realize that he isn't going to cut it as a LT, I would get Thomas and force him to move to RT or RG or get ready to be dropped... This is not a one year issue or a solution for April 28th draft.. this is long term placing more importance on pass catchers than OL..
Then when great ex-giants call him out for it, I'd have a great response in terms of what i actually did rather then just use an excuse again.. We've had multiple opportunities to fix the OL, the third round pick was only 1 of about 25 options that we had..
black and white with people? It isn't like there is a blind support of Flowers - it is more that in today's NFL, it isn't prudent, team building wise, nor cap wise to give up on a 1st rounder until all avenues for improvement have been exhausted.
Some of you guys make it sound like Flowers should be cut, his successor drafted and that magically fixes things.
It is such an absurd way of thinking about the game as if Reese sits in an office fidgeting with one of those spinner things hoping it takes his mind off of picking a possible 1st round bust, and we have hordes of fans waiting for him to pull the trigger in releasing the guy. You don't really want that to happen. It sets the team back.
As a GM i would value the line more than positional players and brought in Joe Thomas for a third round or swap our 2nd with their third or something.. I would have tried to get Alex mack the year before that.. I would've told my team to look for a better option than a completely unpolished tackle with bad tape against stud DEs in college.. When we realize that he isn't going to cut it as a LT, I would get Thomas and force him to move to RT or RG or get ready to be dropped... This is not a one year issue or a solution for April 28th draft.. this is long term placing more importance on pass catchers than OL..
Then when great ex-giants call him out for it, I'd have a great response in terms of what i actually did rather then just use an excuse again.. We've had multiple opportunities to fix the OL, the third round pick was only 1 of about 25 options that we had..
You keep mentioning Joe Thomas, but you have no idea if he was even available, and if he was, what the Browns were asking. In light of what was widely seen as a piss-poor OL draft, even if the Browns were willing to move JT (which I highly doubt), it would make sense that they would ask for a king's ransom for him.
People treat running an NFL team like it's a game of Madden in franchise mode. It doesn't work that way.
There is nothing wrong in O'Hara criticizing Reese, but as a poster above says, he has to be willing to say WHO Reese should have drafted rather than Webb. To infer that Reese should have taken an OL with that pick when an OL was drafted for almost an entire round is simply lazy.
Screwed Reese -- I think he thought Scherff'd be there at #9 and when he wasn't he panicked and took Flowers. Of course he'd never admit that but I still think the Giants front office scrambled after the Redskins pick.
Yes. They panicked and scrambled so much that they hardly used any of their allotted time to get their pick of Flowers in. They may have preferred Scherf - we'll never really know - but they weren't panicking or scrambling when they drafted Flowers.
No I don't think they panicked. Which makes it more disturbing.
Why? Flowers certainly had his detractors, but he was generally considered to be a 1st round talent. He was Mike Mayock's #2 ranked OT in 2015 (La'El Collins was #1).
to see all these excuses some are making for Reese including Reese himself!
They must have short memories or they'd be just as pissed as the rest of us that we are being forced to go into a 5th year with a o-line that doesn't look much improved from last year or the year before that or the year before that or the year before that.
Bottom line is we've had a horrible o-line for 4 years in a row that was clearly obvious 4 years ago and Reese owns that like it or not.
we should have just casually brought in Joe Thomas, easy as that.
What's even more ridiculous is that after the article that came out last week about his admitted memory loss, some people still think it would have been a good idea to trade for him. For all we know he retires before the season starts...
to see all these excuses some are making for Reese including Reese himself!
They must have short memories or they'd be just as pissed as the rest of us that we are being forced to go into a 5th year with a o-line that doesn't look much improved from last year or the year before that or the year before that or the year before that.
Bottom line is we've had a horrible o-line for 4 years in a row that was clearly obvious 4 years ago and Reese owns that like it or not.
I completely agree that if the OL stinks, it is on Reese, but the criticism is that he should have done something this draft, when there were very few OL to choose from. In fact, the specific suggestion was that he should have taken an OL instead of Webb, talent be damned.
Reese didn t ignore the offensive line over recent drafts Â
. . . I just don't get what else people want this man to do. At this point the offensive line is almost entirely filled with young guys taken high in the draft. Of course not all of these guys are going to be studs - but Jerry Reese is just a GM, not a fuckin sorcerer.
we should have just casually brought in Joe Thomas, easy as that.
What's even more ridiculous is that after the article that came out last week about his admitted memory loss, some people still think it would have been a good idea to trade for him. For all we know he retires before the season starts...
There are tons of articles that have claimed that Browns were looking to trade JT.. Here one - http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/nfl-trade-deadline-rumors-heres-what-the-browns-want-for-star-tackle-joe-thomas/
Anyhow I guess you guys just read names rather than focus on the part about how he places less importance on OL.. In spite of how JT feels now.. he played much better last year with those troubles than Flowers did or anyone else on our OL except for Pugh.. Mack single handedly turned the entire OL arround for Atlanta..
This is a 5 year problem.. April 31st, 3rd round is not the only time he has refused to address the OL..
Screwed Reese -- I think he thought Scherff'd be there at #9 and when he wasn't he panicked and took Flowers. Of course he'd never admit that but I still think the Giants front office scrambled after the Redskins pick.
Yes. They panicked and scrambled so much that they hardly used any of their allotted time to get their pick of Flowers in. They may have preferred Scherf - we'll never really know - but they weren't panicking or scrambling when they drafted Flowers.
Fair point -- either way Reese didn't make a good decision there. Hopefully Flowers proves me and BBI wrong this season.
RE: The Giants potential starting offensive line this year Â
. . . I just don't get what else people want this man to do. At this point the offensive line is almost entirely filled with young guys taken high in the draft. Of course not all of these guys are going to be studs - but Jerry Reese is just a GM, not a fuckin sorcerer.
Thats my other issue.. inspite of 3 early round picks he has never truly hit on any of those guys.. Majority of the NFL don't see any of them as studs.. Dallas with the same investment has a stud OL at 3, may be four positions.. And don't count Flukers as 1st rounder.. he is a guy that SD dropped and 31 other teams weren't willing to pay him $3M dollars.. when even below par OT got like $50M this off season..
This is a 5 year problem.. April 31st, 3rd round is not the only time he has refused to address the OL..
We've spent several draft picks trying to build the OL. While it hasn't worked, saying he "refused to address the OL" is the height of stupidity, especially since several posts before yours pointed out exactly where the resources were spent.
It's like you are going to keep pushing a point even if the facts don't support it. That's another height of stupidity.
RE: The Giants potential starting offensive line this year Â
. . . I just don't get what else people want this man to do. At this point the offensive line is almost entirely filled with young guys taken high in the draft. Of course not all of these guys are going to be studs - but Jerry Reese is just a GM, not a fuckin sorcerer.
More likely Jerry at RG and Fluker at RT. But we'll see. And just because players were drafted high doesn't mean they were good picks. So far Flowers and Fluker aren't.
This is a 5 year problem.. April 31st, 3rd round is not the only time he has refused to address the OL..
We've spent several draft picks trying to build the OL. While it hasn't worked, saying he "refused to address the OL" is the height of stupidity, especially since several posts before yours pointed out exactly where the resources were spent.
It's like you are going to keep pushing a point even if the facts don't support it. That's another height of stupidity.
I have said this repeatedly for years now. We can certainly complain about the results, but we can't say OL was ignored by Reese. Three straight years he spent a 1st or 2nd round pick on an OL and all 3 started as rookies. He has tried several veteran FAs with very mixed results. More recent moves haven't worked out great and Flowers is still a question mark, but OL has certainly been addressed.
same as O'Hara. A two down run stuffer could be found later. The OL is weak and there is no depth. Reese really better hope a vet OL is cut the Giants can sign.
If you think Dalvin Tomlinson is a "two down run stuffer," then you apparently haven't read much about him or the college system he played in.
RE: RE: The Giants potential starting offensive line this year Â
. . . I just don't get what else people want this man to do. At this point the offensive line is almost entirely filled with young guys taken high in the draft. Of course not all of these guys are going to be studs - but Jerry Reese is just a GM, not a fuckin sorcerer.
Thats my other issue.. inspite of 3 early round picks he has never truly hit on any of those guys.. Majority of the NFL don't see any of them as studs.. Dallas with the same investment has a stud OL at 3, may be four positions.. And don't count Flukers as 1st rounder.. he is a guy that SD dropped and 31 other teams weren't willing to pay him $3M dollars.. when even below par OT got like $50M this off season..
Fluker was drafted in the 1st round, therefore he is a 1st round draft pick - simple as that. All of those players were drafted right around where they were projected to be picked.
The whole premise of this thread is about criticizing Reese for his decision to not take a lineman earlier in the draft. We can have a conversation about the quality of these players, but you can't take issue with Reese not selecting a lineman earlier in the draft while also disregarding guys that actually were high draft picks because they haven't performed.
This is a 5 year problem.. April 31st, 3rd round is not the only time he has refused to address the OL..
We've spent several draft picks trying to build the OL. While it hasn't worked, saying he "refused to address the OL" is the height of stupidity, especially since several posts before yours pointed out exactly where the resources were spent.
It's like you are going to keep pushing a point even if the facts don't support it. That's another height of stupidity.
I have said this repeatedly for years now. We can certainly complain about the results, but we can't say OL was ignored by Reese. Three straight years he spent a 1st or 2nd round pick on an OL and all 3 started as rookies. He has tried several veteran FAs with very mixed results. More recent moves haven't worked out great and Flowers is still a question mark, but OL has certainly been addressed.
Please list legit starter/pro bowl level OL he is brought via FA? His only real investments have been 3 draftees and Schwartz.. I think it can be both that he hasn't invested enough in OL and when he has invested he has failed.. One doesn't have to be exclusive of the other.. And over the past 2 off seasons he has basically done nothing on either front.. Signing a dropped player who was drafted in the first round 4 years ago but couldn't get anyone else to pay him $3M when other horrible OT were getting $50 million is a no risk with a slight possibility of high reward play.. but its not a solution someone should bank on..
Stupidity is blaming everyone else (TC, ELI, the draft board and critic) instead of JR for our OL problems over the past 5 years.. There have been many drafts, FA and trades available to fix something like this.. and OL is not a group that you can win without.. Overall OL is more important than a QB.. Even the Ravens, Broncos from 2 year ago and Bucs were able to win without QB but other I don't remember anyone winning superbowl without a competent Oline.. Thats all we need is a competent OL not a great one or a good one just a competent one...
But I don't think the Giants should've reached for OL in the 3rd for the hell of it. I do however think there was CB talent available that would've impacted immediately -- which would've brought the organization closer to a championship.
I do agree that Webb won't play a meaningful snap on his rookie deal. Reese can say we're the professionals all he wants but the reality is his track record in the 3rd round is piss poor. So is his record taking fliers on QBs.
Stupidity is blaming everyone else (TC, ELI, the draft board and critic) instead of JR for our OL problems over the past 5 years.
Exactly who is doing this? You have a strange way of arguing, by making points that don't exist(Reese ignores the OL) or creating objections that don't exist (everyone else is to blame)
You seem to be creating comments and then using them to argue with others. Who the hell has ever blamed Eli for the play of the offensive line? I have only seen people crediting Eli for getting rid of the ball so quickly in explaining the low number of sacks given up each year.
Screwed Reese -- I think he thought Scherff'd be there at #9 and when he wasn't he panicked and took Flowers. Of course he'd never admit that but I still think the Giants front office scrambled after the Redskins pick.
Why is it that when a player we might be/are interested in gets taken before we pick that everyone (media included) seems to use that as a point of criticism or panic against Reese. Do you honestly think they didnt game plan 10 players to take in that draft? Same shit with Doug Martin, and a few guys this year, and the DE/LB Chicago took, and Conklin etc.
Every time a highly rated prospect would would fill a Giants need gets taken, people envision pandemonium in the Giants war room. Based on what?
Could not agree more. The draft is the draft. People get picked in front of you. That is how the system is supposed to work,
there isn't a single person on this board who thinks Reese is blameless. Talk about an exaggeration.
Yeah. Flowers is squarely on JR. I think we've underinvested in OL as JR tries to (1) cheap out in some positions to spend more assets at playmaking positions, and (2) dig out from a solid half-decade of a really terrible injury crisis that was unique in scale to the Giants.
I don't agree we've underinvested. I recall back in 2011 the Giants had the 2nd most invested in the OL and it was awful.
We also have two 1sts and a second along the line. That should be good enough for an average OL.
I agree on the high end of the draft. I think we've been going awful cheap on UFA vets in the face of big OL problems. Fluker on a make-good. Luke warm bodies the year before. Newhouse for 3/2 the year before. 2014 we signed Schwartz for 16/4, no one the year before that.
Schwartz was the only $2+ million player, and he didnt get a rich contract. I'd be curious to see what our OL spend has been vs. other teams.
Is how poor Reese/Ross and the scouting department have been with identifying and acquiring quality late round picks/UDFAs and how bad a job the coaching staff has done with developing them. If David Diehl, Rich Seubert, and Sean O'hara all developed into long term quality starters as low draft picks and priority UDFAs, why haven't we produced anybody since then. Looking around the league the Patriots have several UDFAs and low draft picks on their starting unit. The Packers have a mishmash of late round draft picks and rookie free agents starting next to Bryan Bulaga who is the lone high draft pick. Oakland has a second and third rounder and the rest of the starting unit were college free agents. Out of the top offensive lines in the league, the Cowboys and the Browns are the exception and not the rule when it comes to drafting offensive linemen high. With the high bust right of offensive linemen coming out of college it seems most successful NFL front offices are even more uncomfortable than Reese with investing a high amount of draft capital on their lines and instead rely heavily on their scouts to uncover hidden gems and on their coaches to develop them into solid starters. Why haven't the Giants of late been able to do this with even a minimal amount of success?
Is how poor Reese/Ross and the scouting department have been with identifying and acquiring quality late round picks/UDFAs and how bad a job the coaching staff has done with developing them. If David Diehl, Rich Seubert, and Sean O'hara all developed into long term quality starters as low draft picks and priority UDFAs, why haven't we produced anybody since then. Looking around the league the Patriots have several UDFAs and low draft picks on their starting unit. The Packers have a mishmash of late round draft picks and rookie free agents starting next to Bryan Bulaga who is the lone high draft pick. Oakland has a second and third rounder and the rest of the starting unit were college free agents. Out of the top offensive lines in the league, the Cowboys and the Browns are the exception and not the rule when it comes to drafting offensive linemen high. With the high bust right of offensive linemen coming out of college it seems most successful NFL front offices are even more uncomfortable than Reese with investing a high amount of draft capital on their lines and instead rely heavily on their scouts to uncover hidden gems and on their coaches to develop them into solid starters. Why haven't the Giants of late been able to do this with even a minimal amount of success?
Good post. There is plenty of blame to be shared, IMO our staff did not adjust to the limitations of the new CBA, and that really killed us in the development department. I like the Pugh and Richburg picks, but I think from a physical makeup standpoint, Flowers is the best prospect out of the 3. Hopefully, he's a late bloomer and proves the critics wrong.
Is how poor Reese/Ross and the scouting department have been with identifying and acquiring quality late round picks/UDFAs and how bad a job the coaching staff has done with developing them. If David Diehl, Rich Seubert, and Sean O'hara all developed into long term quality starters as low draft picks and priority UDFAs, why haven't we produced anybody since then. Looking around the league the Patriots have several UDFAs and low draft picks on their starting unit. The Packers have a mishmash of late round draft picks and rookie free agents starting next to Bryan Bulaga who is the lone high draft pick. Oakland has a second and third rounder and the rest of the starting unit were college free agents. Out of the top offensive lines in the league, the Cowboys and the Browns are the exception and not the rule when it comes to drafting offensive linemen high. With the high bust right of offensive linemen coming out of college it seems most successful NFL front offices are even more uncomfortable than Reese with investing a high amount of draft capital on their lines and instead rely heavily on their scouts to uncover hidden gems and on their coaches to develop them into solid starters. Why haven't the Giants of late been able to do this with even a minimal amount of success?
If we're being fair, while you can use the Packers and Raiders as examples of getting contributions from later-round players or undrafted players, the trade off is that the Packers, as a matter of organizational philosophy, practically ignore Free Agency as a tool for team building. And there's an argument to be had that, frankly, they have not done a good enough job of supporting Aaron Rodgers with talent during this window where he's been the top or 1A quarterback in the league.
Also, the Raiders have been horrendous for sixteen years at everything involving talent. At some point the odds had to swing in their favor.
for many seasons speaks for itself. Jerry can make all the comments he wants but something good better happen this season. Time is wasting away for Eli.
about Webb in the 3rd? Odds are he will contribute nothing but carrying a clipboard for 4 years. And considering our (JR's) track record with 3rd rounders, an alternative pick would more than likely flame out as well.
e.g., Moore, D.,Bromley, J., Odiggywiggy . . . JFC, Jerry drafted him with two bad hips!
On the bright side, can you imagine what would be happening on this forum if we were in the Bears' shoes, and did what they did?
Nuclear fucking meltdown.
Only 33 OL were selected in the draft -- fewest in common draft era. 23 of them were taken on Day 3.
1:29 PM - 1 May 2017
It's not like there was a stud sitting there in the 3rd round.
I'm not suggesting there was a promising OL there in the 3rd but O'Hara's point is correct. The Giants should be building a team and line around Eli for the next few years, not wasting a pick on a QB.
I'm not suggesting there was a promising OL there in the 3rd but O'Hara's point is correct. The Giants should be building a team and line around Eli for the next few years, not wasting a pick on a QB.
There's NO right or wrong. There can't be. It's an OPINION
I'm not suggesting there was a promising OL there in the 3rd but O'Hara's point is correct. The Giants should be building a team and line around Eli for the next few years, not wasting a pick on a QB.
Yeah, or not...
We can all argue this until we're blue in the face but I'm going to default to the guys who's job is to build a good roster.
So many teams ignored OL in this draft, or spent late picks on the OL. "Webb is a wasted pick" is coming from someone who has absolutely no idea what our thoughts are on the QB position after 2018.
Whoa. Who's the feisty one now?
I'm not suggesting there was a promising OL there in the 3rd but O'Hara's point is correct. The Giants should be building a team and line around Eli for the next few years, not wasting a pick on a QB.
So even if there were no good OL left, Reese should have picked one just because? That is how you destroy a roster. You can argue the Webb pick, but eventually, they will need to find Eli's replacement. If Webb is starting in 4 years, will you still complain about him being a wasted pick?
If there's an OL that was picked around the same slot that has a good career and Webb flames out - then O'Hara is right.
Its not something that can be determined right now.
Quite the contrary, actually. I think everyone here hopes Webb becomes the successor after year 2 or year 3 and becomes a great QB. Which is essentially what they drafted him to be. Can people really not see this?
I'm not suggesting there was a promising OL there in the 3rd but O'Hara's point is correct. The Giants should be building a team and line around Eli for the next few years, not wasting a pick on a QB.
Last 2 SB wins ? What did he contribute to the last one ??
You can argue that this made sense for the Nassib pick.
Now we have a 36 year old QB who may or may not have quietly informed the team of how much longer he intends to play. I'd put money on the Giants drafting him with different expectations.
In Biz, Wheeler, and Dunker I hope!
We are only "result orientated" and that's reasonable. It's more nuanced but there's other ways of measuring a pick (or, for that matter) any decision and that's not by results but by the information available at the time.
Getting a QB in the third round is a long shot, but it's a great gamble. Dynasties are built on those rare instances of finding an NFL QB late in the draft...see Brady, Wilson etc. If it's a trusim: the most valuable commodity in sports is and NFL QB, that's trumped by "and NFL QB that's economically acquired.
The alternative to a third rounder now is to give up most of your draft to get one later. And even so the chances of hitting the jackpot are about 50% with top five picks.
Wonderful courageous and visionary move by Jerry - no matter how it turns out.
We took a shot on a guy with high upside in the 3rd round without having to give any extra assets to obtain which also allows him to sit for 2 years atleast and learn everything he possibly can.
How this strategy isn't supported is beyond me.
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he's a guy that you hope never plays a meaningful down for the Giants.
Quite the contrary, actually. I think everyone here hopes Webb becomes the successor after year 2 or year 3 and becomes a great QB. Which is essentially what they drafted him to be. Can people really not see this?
Exactly. I like Eli and all and he's been a good QB and good man while with the Giants... but I'd love it if Webb beat him out THIS year. I'd trade Eli to the Broncos for their 1st round pick and be happy to be set at the position for the next decade at least.
***Disclaimer*** I'm not suggesting that Webb has chance in hell of unseating Eli by the way. But if Webb was somehow beating out Eli that means that Webb is playing lights out and who wouldn't want to see that?
We took a shot on a guy with high upside in the 3rd round without having to give any extra assets to obtain which also allows him to sit for 2 years atleast and learn everything he possibly can.
How this strategy isn't supported is beyond me.
funny steelers did the exact same thing and not one person is criticising them
Wow... I even said I'm not suggesting it... and it was still missed. Impressive.
If JR had traded down with our first round pick he may well have still got Engram + the qb in the third + one of the six cb's picked in the third round subsequent to our original pick.
Now that still doesn't help when it comes to the OL but at least he would have been drafting into the strength of the draft and bolstered our secondary while getting his prospective qb of the future.
I don't have a problem with what JR did with his sixth round choice nor paying a little extra for Wheeler and and the other UDFA's.
My issue with JR and his approach to the draft is he never trades down and he predictably spends a high draft choice on a position that got vacated in FA e.g. using a second for a dt.
JR may well have obtained a rotational dt with a lower choice e.g. third, fourth or fifth round instead of spending a second on a guy that will probably leave for more $ after four years
He's absolutely right.
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last 2 SB wins, but remember, he's the prick who wah-wahed to the NFLPA with his complaint about TC in the very beginning..Crybaby jackass
Last 2 SB wins ? What did he contribute to the last one ??
My bad..2007 SB run
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last 2 SB wins, but remember, he's the prick who wah-wahed to the NFLPA with his complaint about TC in the very beginning..Crybaby jackass
Whoa. Who's the feisty one now?
That's why you're considered the feisty guru..We constantly learn
Davis Baas is looking at you eyes sideways bro..
There were also atleast a couple teams interested in Engram, we likely don't get him later in the draft, possibly even just a few spots later.
The hindsight stuff after we all see how the draft went is pointless. There's absolutely no way to predict the domino effect of the Giants giving up 23 in a tradeback and what would have happened from there.
If JR had traded down with our first round pick he may well have still got Engram + the qb in the third + one of the six cb's picked in the third round subsequent to our original pick.
Now that still doesn't help when it comes to the OL but at least he would have been drafting into the strength of the draft and bolstered our secondary while getting his prospective qb of the future.
I don't have a problem with what JR did with his sixth round choice nor paying a little extra for Wheeler and and the other UDFA's.
My issue with JR and his approach to the draft is he never trades down and he predictably spends a high draft choice on a position that got vacated in FA e.g. using a second for a dt.
JR may well have obtained a rotational dt with a lower choice e.g. third, fourth or fifth round instead of spending a second on a guy that will probably leave for more $ after four years
I've read in a few places that had the Giants traded down it's possible that both the Steelers or the Falcons were likely to pick Engram. So no, trading down wasn't an option if they wanted to get the man they wanted.
Regarding your issue with Reese, I guess I just don't understand why some are bothered that Reese has never traded down? It's like the whole 'he doesn't care about the o-line because he didn't draft any in the first 3 rounds' argument... it's like some of you want him to do it just to do it... and I don't see the logic in that. The draft is about opportunity meeting value and, as I pointed out in my first paragraph, yeah he had the 'opportunity' to trade down... but would the 'value' of doing so match? Reese and the Giants didn't think so at the time and after hearing that a few teams after them had their eye on Engram it appears they were right.
Now a few days post draft, the media covering the Giants and the fans see a larger picture and see that the Giants did in fact address the Oline.
Unfortunately, with the advent of social media, O'Hara's comments last long after they were made, and are now overcome by events since they were made. That won't stop media and fans alike from using the comment over and over again.
The addition of Bisnasty, Wheeler, and Dunker (all had 4th or 5th round grades) does address the line, creating depth and competition at the tackle position and Guard.
Also, the Giants did sign DJ Fluker to address the right side.
There was not a franchise Left Tackle in the draft at all, there was no franchise left tackle in Free Agency that the Giants could get. Not if the team was to re-sign JPP and others given the cap.
The line was addresses. The Giants did not over reach in a weak draft class. Depth and competition exists.
I am comfortable saying the Giants addressed the line, just not in splashy or dramatic style. The Giants did it their way.
He's absolutely right.
And evidently, the whole league felt that way judging by the number of OL drafted in the first few rounds (and overall)this year. O'Hara's criticism would've been more valid if the O-line crop was a talented and deep as the DB crop (or TE crop for that matter). Then you could say 'You couldn't even get ONE of those guys?'. But that wasn't the case... and the Giants weren't the only team.
[quote] felt the same concerns about the offensive line.
Well then the majority of BBI was just as wrong as he was.
Regardless, there's no way to make his logic stick. The Webb move wasn't so much a post-Eli pick as it was a gamble that doubles as insurance should Eli get hurt. The only other QBs on the roster are Geno Smith and Josh Johnson, not like we've got a lot of options should the unthinkable happen.
If he's complaining about OL investment, or building up the team to win now vs. later, it's a 3rd round pick in an OL weak draft. You're not getting help that could start, and certainly not OL help that could start. Immediate impact from that pick minimal regardless of position, albeit lower given that it's a QB.
If there is a will to obtain additional picks a partner can be found imo
Seattle never has a problem finding a partner to trade down nor NE
I guess I am looking at JR's overall draft philosophy and find it wanting compared to some of the above teams
The more picks accumulated the more you spread your risk on any specific pick
If we trade down maybe we get Engram maybe we don't. But we would have gotten additional picks and maybe we wouldn't be looking at Valentino Blake and Michael Hunter as our cb's late season should our starters get dinged
Coughlin was unstintingly loyal to O'Hara in 2009 and 2010, when his wheels were coming off. How did that turn out?
1. The O-line sucked last year and you can argue this is why our offense struggled and why we got bitch slapped in the playoffs.
2. Reese knew this would be a weak draft for the O-line. It is not as if he got the list of prospects the night before the draft. They knew this before the 2016 season even started.
3. Knowing the O-line position was not a strong one, he still did not truly address this BIGGEST NEED for our team via free agency.
I am not going to kill Jerry for not drafting a guy high. I agree with him about not reaching for a need 100%. What I will criticize him for is if we enter camp this July with a sub par O-line. Still some free agent moves to potentially make but the options are even slimmer now.
If there is a will to obtain additional picks a partner can be found imo
Seattle never has a problem finding a partner to trade down nor NE
I guess I am looking at JR's overall draft philosophy and find it wanting compared to some of the above teams
The more picks accumulated the more you spread your risk on any specific pick
If we trade down maybe we get Engram maybe we don't. But we would have gotten additional picks and maybe we wouldn't be looking at Valentino Blake and Michael Hunter as our cb's late season should our starters get dinged
Or you could say you're multiplying your risks.
Coughlin was unstintingly loyal to O'Hara in 2009 and 2010, when his wheels were coming off. How did that turn out?
Great point! If O'Hara... or any of his o-line mates... were still playing would he be yelling 'Get some guys in here who could potentially take my job!'?
1. The O-line sucked last year and you can argue this is why our offense struggled and why we got bitch slapped in the playoffs.
2. Reese knew this would be a weak draft for the O-line. It is not as if he got the list of prospects the night before the draft. They knew this before the 2016 season even started.
3. Knowing the O-line position was not a strong one, he still did not truly address this BIGGEST NEED for our team via free agency.
I am not going to kill Jerry for not drafting a guy high. I agree with him about not reaching for a need 100%. What I will criticize him for is if we enter camp this July with a sub par O-line. Still some free agent moves to potentially make but the options are even slimmer now.
The biggest need being addressed in the offseason would have resulted in paying a ton of money for a 35 year old player. This same decision could have also resulted in losing out on what kept our defense as good as it was last year.
1. The O-line sucked last year and you can argue this is why our offense struggled and why we got bitch slapped in the playoffs.
2. Reese knew this would be a weak draft for the O-line. It is not as if he got the list of prospects the night before the draft. They knew this before the 2016 season even started.
3. Knowing the O-line position was not a strong one, he still did not truly address this BIGGEST NEED for our team via free agency.
I am not going to kill Jerry for not drafting a guy high. I agree with him about not reaching for a need 100%. What I will criticize him for is if we enter camp this July with a sub par O-line. Still some free agent moves to potentially make but the options are even slimmer now.
Who besides Zeitler and Whitworth (two players the Giants did go after I believe... I know there was some reported interest in Whitworth but not as sure about Zeitler) would you have wanted Reese to go after and would you have been ok with signing them for what they received? Keep in mind, we probably wouldn't have JPP back (at the least).
Spotrac link to FA Olineman - ( New Window )
If there is a will to obtain additional picks a partner can be found imo
Seattle never has a problem finding a partner to trade down nor NE
I guess I am looking at JR's overall draft philosophy and find it wanting compared to some of the above teams
The more picks accumulated the more you spread your risk on any specific pick
If we trade down maybe we get Engram maybe we don't. But we would have gotten additional picks and maybe we wouldn't be looking at Valentino Blake and Michael Hunter as our cb's late season should our starters get dinged
Finding a partner and being happy with your compensation are two different things. I really don't know why people are obsessed with trading down anyway, you are almost guaranteed to end up with a player who's rated lower with less of a chance of being a good NFL player.
Nor has just about everyone on BBI, but that doesn't stop us!
I know it's been frustrating, but drafting OL early, isn't always the answer. Reaching is NEVER the answer.
3. Knowing the O-line position was not a strong one, he still did not truly address this BIGGEST NEED for our team via free agency.
Who did you want him to sign as a FA and how much did you want him to pay?
If Webb isn't the guy, next year is supposed to be a good QB draft as well.
As for the OL, the draft itself shows how all 32 teams felt about the quality. They didnt feel it was worth the picks. Now some may turn out to be good picks but the OT we drafted seems like a great value so that should be commended for not over drafting a guy. Time will tell.
As for O'Hara, he just needed to have something to say. At worst our OL is the same as last year. With improvement from a young Flowers and health for Pugh & Richburg we could be much improved. Fluker is an unknown. If he can find himself we may have something there or at least depth.
I'm not suggesting there was a promising OL there in the 3rd but O'Hara's point is correct. The Giants should be building a team and line around Eli for the next few years, not wasting a pick on a QB.
The Giants put their current roster on the board against potential draftees. If there were no OL prospects who were graded highly enough that they would have unseated one of the starters, how is that any different than a QB that won't unseat the starter?
You build your team by adding players that improve your roster the most, at whatever position that may be. To flat out ignore the QB position because you have one in place already is reckless, and even more so when that QB is at an age when many players begin to decline.
As for "he's a guy that you hope never plays a meaningful down for the Giants," from the moment Webb signs his contract, he becomes the QB who is signed the farthest into the future for the Giants. I don't see how anyone can declare with certainty that the Giants don't envision him ever playing a meaningful down.
I wouldn't say they are obsessed. Would you?
All I am saying is draft into the strength of the draft
This draft was strong in db's.
We need db's. I think there is consensus on this point.
We need OL. I think there is consensus on this point.
This draft was not strong in OL.
Six quality cb's were drafted in the third round after our qb pick.
If we had an additional third round pick chances are pretty good we could have obtained one of those cb's while still grabbing the qb that JR/Mac were obsessed with.
The one main criticism of NE is their draft strategy. Ironically, their best pick outside the 3rd round was probably Aaron Hernandez in the 4th, or Julian Edelman in the 7th. Apart from those two in the past 10 years, you're looking at not much better results than the Giants.
But that's the reality of the draft - extra picks, especially past the 3rd round are usually negligible for the most part, which is why there aren't so many compensatory picks that end up becoming superstars.
While the rigidity of never trading down surely has faults, let's not make it seem like not doing so is a terrible strategy - the vast majority of time a trade down simply isn't worth it - especially if you aren't getting the maximum value from the additional picks.
Dare I say reckless..
ChicagoMarty : 10:53 am : link : reply
trading down has worked out well with Seattle and NE
Don't confuse SB success by NE, with drafting success. Please elaborate on which lower round picks accumulated through trade downs are giving them the image as draft experts?
I just don't know why Reese not trading back is a barometer of success or failure.
Their success is entirely due to their HC, who can coach to a level that excuses some of his misfires as GM.
However, isn't it a bit odd to criticize the Giants for not selecting OL early enough. I would thing that O'hara, perhaps more than anyone, might appreciate that there might be value in the three new OL drafted in the sixth round or below. It's kind of like Tom Brady that selecting a QB below the first round is a waste of a pick.
I'm just saying ...
We have (2) #1s and a #2 on the starting OL.
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will blame everyone and find every excuse for the OL situation.. this wasn't the first off season where we knew we had OL issues.. it was the 5th in a row..
We have (2) #1s and a #2 on the starting OL.
None are good or consistent.. Just because you have spent the resources doesn't mean the OL is fixed.. I am asking for a solution not an excuse.. all this talk about the Pats.. they fixed the OL in 1 season.. last season their OL was horrible.. This season it was good..
Of course, draft pedigree is no guarantee of quality, but there's obviously a lot of physical ability in Solari's room. The rookies seem to bring a fair amount of talent too, though they all have warts that marred their standing in the Draft.
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In comment 13458950 chuckydee9 said:
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will blame everyone and find every excuse for the OL situation.. this wasn't the first off season where we knew we had OL issues.. it was the 5th in a row..
We have (2) #1s and a #2 on the starting OL.
None are good or consistent.. Just because you have spent the resources doesn't mean the OL is fixed.. I am asking for a solution not an excuse.. all this talk about the Pats.. they fixed the OL in 1 season.. last season their OL was horrible.. This season it was good..
Pugh and Richburg arent good?
In any event, there is no guarantee that a rookie OL would fix the OL issues either, so the cuts at O'Hara's criticism. The next OL picked after 23 was at 32, and that even at 32 I saw some criticism of that as an overdraft. The value wasnt there. #2 filled a bigger hole, DT. By the 3rd round if you're bitching that an immediate OL hold (tackle, really) could have been filled out of this draft, you're nuts. You're almost certainly arguing that "an OL" should have been drafted rather than a specific OL.
but make no mistake had they traded down engram would have been a falcon,they could have taken njoku and passed as did the giants,njoku arguably had the better upside but engram had better speed,ran better routes and was far more nfl ready the falcons clearly thought he was a suitable replacement for gonzales which makes me feel all the better they drafted him where they did
i was surprised by the venom of ohara's criticism had he said something along the lines of i thought they would have drafted a higher OL than they did we will see a few years from now which was the right call but he didnt he called it a wasted pick without seeing him play a down
i wanted garcia where they took webb and they would have got him,likely still have got him in round 4 if the pats didnt trade up a pick ahead of them to grab him also
but when you see the strength of his arm which was never that good in eli,and look at the cold weather he will need that strength in giants stadium late in the season if he someday replaces manning and if he does a 3rd round pick with no trade up is a bargain
i dont want the post manning era to be anything like the post simms one where they lurched from 1 project QB to another for years. if this works its genius they smooth the edges and fill the holes in webbs game while he watches manning.if not its a third round pick not a first plus traded picks for the same type of guy years from now.
alternatively "hope" for a 3-13 record and then hope theres a QB they like when the draft rolls around and given the yearly scramble at QB position even that might not get them eli's successor either.
Webb was the #87 pick. There was not an OL selected after Webb for an astonishing 28 more picks, until Arizona took Dorian Johnson, a guard, at 115. A tackle didnt go until 129, OAK's David Sharpe. Our need is tackle. We should have reached by more than a round in a bad OL draft to take Sharpe?
You cant just say "should have taken an OL". You have to have names.
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Just follow the progression here....
3. Knowing the O-line position was not a strong one, he still did not truly address this BIGGEST NEED for our team via free agency.
Who did you want him to sign as a FA and how much did you want him to pay?
Bill, my response is to you, T-Bone and UConn since you all replied to my comment in a similar fashion....
It is not up to me to say WHO we should have signed, what we would pay them and who we would not sign (at another position) as a result of signing an O-lineman. If I could figure all of that math out for you then I should be the GM. I am not the GM. However, I (as well as all of you) know enough about this sport to know that our O-line sucks balls and was the primary reason for our failure last year. So, it is on the GM to find a way to get that O-line fixed... period.
I think that I referenced in my earlier post that there is still time so the jury is still out on all of this. Plus, they apparently have some confidence in the guys who are here so then there is the "how effective are these coaches" aspect of it.
In the end, if this O-line blows again after the first few games and we cannot run the ball then his off season will be a failure with the inability to fix our number one need. Conversely, if the O-line puts things together and they end up being an average O-line then give Jerry some credit. However, for now and on paper this is the same group that could not get it done last year with the same left tackle that was ranked worst in the league protecting the blind side of our $20 million QB.
Let's see what happens
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In comment 13458957 RinR said:
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In comment 13458950 chuckydee9 said:
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will blame everyone and find every excuse for the OL situation.. this wasn't the first off season where we knew we had OL issues.. it was the 5th in a row..
We have (2) #1s and a #2 on the starting OL.
None are good or consistent.. Just because you have spent the resources doesn't mean the OL is fixed.. I am asking for a solution not an excuse.. all this talk about the Pats.. they fixed the OL in 1 season.. last season their OL was horrible.. This season it was good..
Pugh and Richburg arent good?
In any event, there is no guarantee that a rookie OL would fix the OL issues either, so the cuts at O'Hara's criticism. The next OL picked after 23 was at 32, and that even at 32 I saw some criticism of that as an overdraft. The value wasnt there. #2 filled a bigger hole, DT. By the 3rd round if you're bitching that an immediate OL hold (tackle, really) could have been filled out of this draft, you're nuts. You're almost certainly arguing that "an OL" should have been drafted rather than a specific OL.
they are good but not consistent.. and niether are as good as the old lineman like Snee, O'Hara or even Dhiel.. but I don't want to blame those 2 or even bring them in because they are the best we have and if we had 5 like them then the OL would be more than acceptable.. but the problem still remains OL as a unit suck..
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In comment 13458950 chuckydee9 said:
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will blame everyone and find every excuse for the OL situation.. this wasn't the first off season where we knew we had OL issues.. it was the 5th in a row..
We have (2) #1s and a #2 on the starting OL.
None are good or consistent.. Just because you have spent the resources doesn't mean the OL is fixed.. I am asking for a solution not an excuse.. all this talk about the Pats.. they fixed the OL in 1 season.. last season their OL was horrible.. This season it was good..
So basically what you are saying is that Reese and his staff should all be fired because the picks and FA$$ he has invested in the OL over the last 5 seasons hasnt produced results. Why would you want the same guy, who hasnt been able to fix it, still trying to?
If thats not what you're saying then what would you have done this offseason?
2013 - Killbride sucks and thats why we have a horrendous OL.
2014 - TC sucks and his reluctance to let Snee go was the reason why the OL is bad.
2015 - TC sucks because in-spite of horrendous OL play we lost games because of his game management
2016 - Eli sucks and we have solved the problem because we have 4 awesome targets now. Besides what else could we have done the draft class was horrible..
None the less from 2012 to now he hasn't found 5 stable OL to help Eli.. I don't mind the Webb Pick but don't let JR go blameless and blame Eli, TC and everyone else thats gone.. JR is the main person responsible for the horrendous OL play over the past 5 years..
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In comment 13458829 EricJ said:
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Just follow the progression here....
3. Knowing the O-line position was not a strong one, he still did not truly address this BIGGEST NEED for our team via free agency.
Who did you want him to sign as a FA and how much did you want him to pay?
Bill, my response is to you, T-Bone and UConn since you all replied to my comment in a similar fashion....
It is not up to me to say WHO we should have signed, what we would pay them and who we would not sign (at another position) as a result of signing an O-lineman. If I could figure all of that math out for you then I should be the GM. I am not the GM. However, I (as well as all of you) know enough about this sport to know that our O-line sucks balls and was the primary reason for our failure last year. So, it is on the GM to find a way to get that O-line fixed... period.
I think that I referenced in my earlier post that there is still time so the jury is still out on all of this. Plus, they apparently have some confidence in the guys who are here so then there is the "how effective are these coaches" aspect of it.
In the end, if this O-line blows again after the first few games and we cannot run the ball then his off season will be a failure with the inability to fix our number one need. Conversely, if the O-line puts things together and they end up being an average O-line then give Jerry some credit. However, for now and on paper this is the same group that could not get it done last year with the same left tackle that was ranked worst in the league protecting the blind side of our $20 million QB.
Let's see what happens
Will the off-season had been a failure if the team wins the Super Bowl again? Or makes it to the NFC Championship game?
Look... you're making it sound like Reese hasn't attempted to try to fix the line. He's invested some high draft choices and signed some FAs (while going after others and not willing to pay the price for them... which most would agree with by the way) to try and fix the problem. The Giants aren't the only team with an O-line problem... it's a league-wide issue. There's a dearth of O-line talent and everyone's trying to grab as many good ones as they can because they're rare.
He's trying. Whether he's doing a good job of trying is certainly debatable but what can't be debated is that he's trying.
I'd rather trust the GM of a professional football team that has 2 SB wins in the past decade that some asswipe who calls respected coaches "Killdrive" and assorted shit like that.
Yeah. Flowers is squarely on JR. I think we've underinvested in OL as JR tries to (1) cheap out in some positions to spend more assets at playmaking positions, and (2) dig out from a solid half-decade of a really terrible injury crisis that was unique in scale to the Giants.
I'd rather trust the GM of a professional football team that has 2 SB wins in the past decade that some asswipe who calls respected coaches "Killdrive" and assorted shit like that.
And people who still cant spell Kanell.
I'd rather trust the GM of a professional football team that has 2 SB wins in the past decade that some asswipe who calls respected coaches "Killdrive" and assorted shit like that.
I don't call him Killbride.. it was me saying that the in reese we trust crowd saying that.. Also not suggesting we fire him.. but every thread this week has been blaming guys like Eli and not OHara and TC.. but the fact is this is JRs problem and he is the most blame worthy..
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fuck do you keep saying "the Reese we trust crowd", as if not wanting to fire the GM is something that should be criticized?
I'd rather trust the GM of a professional football team that has 2 SB wins in the past decade that some asswipe who calls respected coaches "Killdrive" and assorted shit like that.
I don't call him Killbride.. it was me saying that the in reese we trust crowd saying that.. Also not suggesting we fire him.. but every thread this week has been blaming guys like Eli and not OHara and TC.. but the fact is this is JRs problem and he is the most blame worthy..
meant to say
"now O'hara and TC"
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there isn't a single person on this board who thinks Reese is blameless. Talk about an exaggeration.
Yeah. Flowers is squarely on JR. I think we've underinvested in OL as JR tries to (1) cheap out in some positions to spend more assets at playmaking positions, and (2) dig out from a solid half-decade of a really terrible injury crisis that was unique in scale to the Giants.
I don't agree we've underinvested. I recall back in 2011 the Giants had the 2nd most invested in the OL and it was awful.
We also have two 1sts and a second along the line. That should be good enough for an average OL.
It makes about as much sense as the "they should have traded down [when there was no fair trade offer]" nonsense.
What about this FO's selections over the years makes you think that? They've got people tiered up, when the time comes they know they're not picking for immediate need if the player isn't towards the top of the tier.
Besides - with only 8 picks ahead of them there weren't exactly a lot of permutations to be prepared for, I'm sure they had already considered the possibility Scherff would be gone.
If Flowers is ultimately a failure, it's on their scouting.
LOL this is the best taek
Maybe they will never be as good as they were drafted, but if Flowers and Fluker turned out to be solid players, then the Oline will not be so bad at all.
Fact is, and this is where I agree with O'Hara, the OL has been left to rot for as long as Reese has been the GM. We plugged in David Baas but when Snee and McKenzie left we did virtually nothing except sign 2nd/3rd tier guys to fill in.
The OL for our two SBs was basically put together by EA except for Baas and then Kevin Boothe who was another 2nd tier guy. This tells me that O'Hara's comments sting and I think, if the OL does not improve, it will be Reese's undoing. As Pat Traina said over the weekend, the Giants are still paying for the bad drafts from 2010-13 in particular and the failure of those drafts to produce any long term Giants especially on the offensive line.
All things being equal, we have addressed our WR/slot and now TE talent. Our RB situation seems to be better. We've even added a QB. Our D has been fixed and looks to be even stronger this year.
What is the only area that continues to be left up to a HUGE question mark...the OL.
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In comment 13459009 UConn4523 said:
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there isn't a single person on this board who thinks Reese is blameless. Talk about an exaggeration.
Yeah. Flowers is squarely on JR. I think we've underinvested in OL as JR tries to (1) cheap out in some positions to spend more assets at playmaking positions, and (2) dig out from a solid half-decade of a really terrible injury crisis that was unique in scale to the Giants.
I don't agree we've underinvested. I recall back in 2011 the Giants had the 2nd most invested in the OL and it was awful.
We also have two 1sts and a second along the line. That should be good enough for an average OL.
I agree on the high end of the draft. I think we've been going awful cheap on UFA vets in the face of big OL problems. Fluker on a make-good. Luke warm bodies the year before. Newhouse for 3/2 the year before. 2014 we signed Schwartz for 16/4, no one the year before that.
Schwartz was the only $2+ million player, and he didnt get a rich contract. I'd be curious to see what our OL spend has been vs. other teams.
Why is it that when a player we might be/are interested in gets taken before we pick that everyone (media included) seems to use that as a point of criticism or panic against Reese. Do you honestly think they didnt game plan 10 players to take in that draft? Same shit with Doug Martin, and a few guys this year, and the DE/LB Chicago took, and Conklin etc.
Every time a highly rated prospect would would fill a Giants need gets taken, people envision pandemonium in the Giants war room. Based on what?
I'm not suggesting there was a promising OL there in the 3rd but O'Hara's point is correct. The Giants should be building a team and line around Eli for the next few years, not wasting a pick on a QB.
Actually, I hope Webb plays very meaningful downs for many, many years with the Giants, when his time comes.
However, if the OL once again sucks, then I think you have to start to think about making changes in management personnel.
Reese and Co justifiably received a ton of criticism for the OL last year. They ignored the critique and doubled down on the idea that with continuity and young guys getting better, this OL will get significantly better.
I trust that they know what they are doing since they see these guys in practice and on film. And like Jerry says it is what they do for a living. But if they are wrong again and the OL is really bad, I think changes have to be made.
Yes. They panicked and scrambled so much that they hardly used any of their allotted time to get their pick of Flowers in. They may have preferred Scherf - we'll never really know - but they weren't panicking or scrambling when they drafted Flowers.
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Screwed Reese -- I think he thought Scherff'd be there at #9 and when he wasn't he panicked and took Flowers. Of course he'd never admit that but I still think the Giants front office scrambled after the Redskins pick.
Yes. They panicked and scrambled so much that they hardly used any of their allotted time to get their pick of Flowers in. They may have preferred Scherf - we'll never really know - but they weren't panicking or scrambling when they drafted Flowers.
No I don't think they panicked. Which makes it more disturbing.
just really silly..
It's almost like they get paid to do that.
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In comment 13458957 RinR said:
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In comment 13458950 chuckydee9 said:
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will blame everyone and find every excuse for the OL situation.. this wasn't the first off season where we knew we had OL issues.. it was the 5th in a row..
We have (2) #1s and a #2 on the starting OL.
None are good or consistent.. Just because you have spent the resources doesn't mean the OL is fixed.. I am asking for a solution not an excuse.. all this talk about the Pats.. they fixed the OL in 1 season.. last season their OL was horrible.. This season it was good..
So basically what you are saying is that Reese and his staff should all be fired because the picks and FA$$ he has invested in the OL over the last 5 seasons hasnt produced results. Why would you want the same guy, who hasnt been able to fix it, still trying to?
If thats not what you're saying then what would you have done this offseason?
As a GM i would value the line more than positional players and brought in Joe Thomas for a third round or swap our 2nd with their third or something.. I would have tried to get Alex mack the year before that.. I would've told my team to look for a better option than a completely unpolished tackle with bad tape against stud DEs in college.. When we realize that he isn't going to cut it as a LT, I would get Thomas and force him to move to RT or RG or get ready to be dropped... This is not a one year issue or a solution for April 28th draft.. this is long term placing more importance on pass catchers than OL..
Then when great ex-giants call him out for it, I'd have a great response in terms of what i actually did rather then just use an excuse again.. We've had multiple opportunities to fix the OL, the third round pick was only 1 of about 25 options that we had..
Some of you guys make it sound like Flowers should be cut, his successor drafted and that magically fixes things.
It is such an absurd way of thinking about the game as if Reese sits in an office fidgeting with one of those spinner things hoping it takes his mind off of picking a possible 1st round bust, and we have hordes of fans waiting for him to pull the trigger in releasing the guy. You don't really want that to happen. It sets the team back.
As a GM i would value the line more than positional players and brought in Joe Thomas for a third round or swap our 2nd with their third or something.. I would have tried to get Alex mack the year before that.. I would've told my team to look for a better option than a completely unpolished tackle with bad tape against stud DEs in college.. When we realize that he isn't going to cut it as a LT, I would get Thomas and force him to move to RT or RG or get ready to be dropped... This is not a one year issue or a solution for April 28th draft.. this is long term placing more importance on pass catchers than OL..
Then when great ex-giants call him out for it, I'd have a great response in terms of what i actually did rather then just use an excuse again.. We've had multiple opportunities to fix the OL, the third round pick was only 1 of about 25 options that we had..
You keep mentioning Joe Thomas, but you have no idea if he was even available, and if he was, what the Browns were asking. In light of what was widely seen as a piss-poor OL draft, even if the Browns were willing to move JT (which I highly doubt), it would make sense that they would ask for a king's ransom for him.
People treat running an NFL team like it's a game of Madden in franchise mode. It doesn't work that way.
There is nothing wrong in O'Hara criticizing Reese, but as a poster above says, he has to be willing to say WHO Reese should have drafted rather than Webb. To infer that Reese should have taken an OL with that pick when an OL was drafted for almost an entire round is simply lazy.
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In comment 13459053 RobCarpenter said:
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Screwed Reese -- I think he thought Scherff'd be there at #9 and when he wasn't he panicked and took Flowers. Of course he'd never admit that but I still think the Giants front office scrambled after the Redskins pick.
Yes. They panicked and scrambled so much that they hardly used any of their allotted time to get their pick of Flowers in. They may have preferred Scherf - we'll never really know - but they weren't panicking or scrambling when they drafted Flowers.
No I don't think they panicked. Which makes it more disturbing.
Why? Flowers certainly had his detractors, but he was generally considered to be a 1st round talent. He was Mike Mayock's #2 ranked OT in 2015 (La'El Collins was #1).
They must have short memories or they'd be just as pissed as the rest of us that we are being forced to go into a 5th year with a o-line that doesn't look much improved from last year or the year before that or the year before that or the year before that.
Bottom line is we've had a horrible o-line for 4 years in a row that was clearly obvious 4 years ago and Reese owns that like it or not.
What's even more ridiculous is that after the article that came out last week about his admitted memory loss, some people still think it would have been a good idea to trade for him. For all we know he retires before the season starts...
They must have short memories or they'd be just as pissed as the rest of us that we are being forced to go into a 5th year with a o-line that doesn't look much improved from last year or the year before that or the year before that or the year before that.
Bottom line is we've had a horrible o-line for 4 years in a row that was clearly obvious 4 years ago and Reese owns that like it or not.
I completely agree that if the OL stinks, it is on Reese, but the criticism is that he should have done something this draft, when there were very few OL to choose from. In fact, the specific suggestion was that he should have taken an OL instead of Webb, talent be damned.
Even this year with the draft and free agency there have been several additions. Let s hope there s a Seubert in there.
Justin Pugh, 26. 1st round draft pick.
Weston Richburg, 25. 2nd round draft pick.
DJ Fluker, 26. 1st round draft pick.
Bobby Hart, 22. 7th round draft pick.
. . . I just don't get what else people want this man to do. At this point the offensive line is almost entirely filled with young guys taken high in the draft. Of course not all of these guys are going to be studs - but Jerry Reese is just a GM, not a fuckin sorcerer.
What's even more ridiculous is that after the article that came out last week about his admitted memory loss, some people still think it would have been a good idea to trade for him. For all we know he retires before the season starts...
There are tons of articles that have claimed that Browns were looking to trade JT.. Here one - http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/nfl-trade-deadline-rumors-heres-what-the-browns-want-for-star-tackle-joe-thomas/
Anyhow I guess you guys just read names rather than focus on the part about how he places less importance on OL.. In spite of how JT feels now.. he played much better last year with those troubles than Flowers did or anyone else on our OL except for Pugh.. Mack single handedly turned the entire OL arround for Atlanta..
This is a 5 year problem.. April 31st, 3rd round is not the only time he has refused to address the OL..
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Screwed Reese -- I think he thought Scherff'd be there at #9 and when he wasn't he panicked and took Flowers. Of course he'd never admit that but I still think the Giants front office scrambled after the Redskins pick.
Yes. They panicked and scrambled so much that they hardly used any of their allotted time to get their pick of Flowers in. They may have preferred Scherf - we'll never really know - but they weren't panicking or scrambling when they drafted Flowers.
Fair point -- either way Reese didn't make a good decision there. Hopefully Flowers proves me and BBI wrong this season.
Justin Pugh, 26. 1st round draft pick.
Weston Richburg, 25. 2nd round draft pick.
DJ Fluker, 26. 1st round draft pick.
Bobby Hart, 22. 7th round draft pick.
. . . I just don't get what else people want this man to do. At this point the offensive line is almost entirely filled with young guys taken high in the draft. Of course not all of these guys are going to be studs - but Jerry Reese is just a GM, not a fuckin sorcerer.
Thats my other issue.. inspite of 3 early round picks he has never truly hit on any of those guys.. Majority of the NFL don't see any of them as studs.. Dallas with the same investment has a stud OL at 3, may be four positions.. And don't count Flukers as 1st rounder.. he is a guy that SD dropped and 31 other teams weren't willing to pay him $3M dollars.. when even below par OT got like $50M this off season..
We've spent several draft picks trying to build the OL. While it hasn't worked, saying he "refused to address the OL" is the height of stupidity, especially since several posts before yours pointed out exactly where the resources were spent.
It's like you are going to keep pushing a point even if the facts don't support it. That's another height of stupidity.
Justin Pugh, 26. 1st round draft pick.
Weston Richburg, 25. 2nd round draft pick.
DJ Fluker, 26. 1st round draft pick.
Bobby Hart, 22. 7th round draft pick.
. . . I just don't get what else people want this man to do. At this point the offensive line is almost entirely filled with young guys taken high in the draft. Of course not all of these guys are going to be studs - but Jerry Reese is just a GM, not a fuckin sorcerer.
More likely Jerry at RG and Fluker at RT. But we'll see. And just because players were drafted high doesn't mean they were good picks. So far Flowers and Fluker aren't.
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This is a 5 year problem.. April 31st, 3rd round is not the only time he has refused to address the OL..
We've spent several draft picks trying to build the OL. While it hasn't worked, saying he "refused to address the OL" is the height of stupidity, especially since several posts before yours pointed out exactly where the resources were spent.
It's like you are going to keep pushing a point even if the facts don't support it. That's another height of stupidity.
If you think Dalvin Tomlinson is a "two down run stuffer," then you apparently haven't read much about him or the college system he played in.
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Ereck Flowers, 23. 1st round draft pick.
Justin Pugh, 26. 1st round draft pick.
Weston Richburg, 25. 2nd round draft pick.
DJ Fluker, 26. 1st round draft pick.
Bobby Hart, 22. 7th round draft pick.
. . . I just don't get what else people want this man to do. At this point the offensive line is almost entirely filled with young guys taken high in the draft. Of course not all of these guys are going to be studs - but Jerry Reese is just a GM, not a fuckin sorcerer.
Thats my other issue.. inspite of 3 early round picks he has never truly hit on any of those guys.. Majority of the NFL don't see any of them as studs.. Dallas with the same investment has a stud OL at 3, may be four positions.. And don't count Flukers as 1st rounder.. he is a guy that SD dropped and 31 other teams weren't willing to pay him $3M dollars.. when even below par OT got like $50M this off season..
Fluker was drafted in the 1st round, therefore he is a 1st round draft pick - simple as that. All of those players were drafted right around where they were projected to be picked.
The whole premise of this thread is about criticizing Reese for his decision to not take a lineman earlier in the draft. We can have a conversation about the quality of these players, but you can't take issue with Reese not selecting a lineman earlier in the draft while also disregarding guys that actually were high draft picks because they haven't performed.
I think you cant admit this without cutting the player, and they're not ready to do that.
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purposely dense?
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This is a 5 year problem.. April 31st, 3rd round is not the only time he has refused to address the OL..
We've spent several draft picks trying to build the OL. While it hasn't worked, saying he "refused to address the OL" is the height of stupidity, especially since several posts before yours pointed out exactly where the resources were spent.
It's like you are going to keep pushing a point even if the facts don't support it. That's another height of stupidity.
I have said this repeatedly for years now. We can certainly complain about the results, but we can't say OL was ignored by Reese. Three straight years he spent a 1st or 2nd round pick on an OL and all 3 started as rookies. He has tried several veteran FAs with very mixed results. More recent moves haven't worked out great and Flowers is still a question mark, but OL has certainly been addressed.
Please list legit starter/pro bowl level OL he is brought via FA? His only real investments have been 3 draftees and Schwartz.. I think it can be both that he hasn't invested enough in OL and when he has invested he has failed.. One doesn't have to be exclusive of the other.. And over the past 2 off seasons he has basically done nothing on either front.. Signing a dropped player who was drafted in the first round 4 years ago but couldn't get anyone else to pay him $3M when other horrible OT were getting $50 million is a no risk with a slight possibility of high reward play.. but its not a solution someone should bank on..
Stupidity is blaming everyone else (TC, ELI, the draft board and critic) instead of JR for our OL problems over the past 5 years.. There have been many drafts, FA and trades available to fix something like this.. and OL is not a group that you can win without.. Overall OL is more important than a QB.. Even the Ravens, Broncos from 2 year ago and Bucs were able to win without QB but other I don't remember anyone winning superbowl without a competent Oline.. Thats all we need is a competent OL not a great one or a good one just a competent one...
I do agree that Webb won't play a meaningful snap on his rookie deal. Reese can say we're the professionals all he wants but the reality is his track record in the 3rd round is piss poor. So is his record taking fliers on QBs.
Exactly who is doing this? You have a strange way of arguing, by making points that don't exist(Reese ignores the OL) or creating objections that don't exist (everyone else is to blame)
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Screwed Reese -- I think he thought Scherff'd be there at #9 and when he wasn't he panicked and took Flowers. Of course he'd never admit that but I still think the Giants front office scrambled after the Redskins pick.
Why is it that when a player we might be/are interested in gets taken before we pick that everyone (media included) seems to use that as a point of criticism or panic against Reese. Do you honestly think they didnt game plan 10 players to take in that draft? Same shit with Doug Martin, and a few guys this year, and the DE/LB Chicago took, and Conklin etc.
Every time a highly rated prospect would would fill a Giants need gets taken, people envision pandemonium in the Giants war room. Based on what?
Could not agree more. The draft is the draft. People get picked in front of you. That is how the system is supposed to work,
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In comment 13459018 Deej said:
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In comment 13459009 UConn4523 said:
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there isn't a single person on this board who thinks Reese is blameless. Talk about an exaggeration.
Yeah. Flowers is squarely on JR. I think we've underinvested in OL as JR tries to (1) cheap out in some positions to spend more assets at playmaking positions, and (2) dig out from a solid half-decade of a really terrible injury crisis that was unique in scale to the Giants.
I don't agree we've underinvested. I recall back in 2011 the Giants had the 2nd most invested in the OL and it was awful.
We also have two 1sts and a second along the line. That should be good enough for an average OL.
I agree on the high end of the draft. I think we've been going awful cheap on UFA vets in the face of big OL problems. Fluker on a make-good. Luke warm bodies the year before. Newhouse for 3/2 the year before. 2014 we signed Schwartz for 16/4, no one the year before that.
Schwartz was the only $2+ million player, and he didnt get a rich contract. I'd be curious to see what our OL spend has been vs. other teams.
O'Hara, UDFA
Good post. There is plenty of blame to be shared, IMO our staff did not adjust to the limitations of the new CBA, and that really killed us in the development department. I like the Pugh and Richburg picks, but I think from a physical makeup standpoint, Flowers is the best prospect out of the 3. Hopefully, he's a late bloomer and proves the critics wrong.
If we're being fair, while you can use the Packers and Raiders as examples of getting contributions from later-round players or undrafted players, the trade off is that the Packers, as a matter of organizational philosophy, practically ignore Free Agency as a tool for team building. And there's an argument to be had that, frankly, they have not done a good enough job of supporting Aaron Rodgers with talent during this window where he's been the top or 1A quarterback in the league.
Also, the Raiders have been horrendous for sixteen years at everything involving talent. At some point the odds had to swing in their favor.
e.g., Moore, D.,Bromley, J., Odiggywiggy . . . JFC, Jerry drafted him with two bad hips!
On the bright side, can you imagine what would be happening on this forum if we were in the Bears' shoes, and did what they did?
Nuclear fucking meltdown.