WR - Odell Beckham, Jr.
slot - Sterling Shepard (2nd year)
TE - Evan Engram
WR - Brandon Marshall
RB - Shane Vereen
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Picture this 5-headed monster attacking all areas of the field on 3rd down. North/South. East/West. High/Low. There are so many things you can do drawing up plays with this group. I hope McAdoo really shows us something creativity-wise.
I think when you said "lethal" it made me think that the original question posed by area junc can be split into two questions..
1. Is this the most talented group
2. will this be the most productive group
The answer to both may not be the same
I doubt we'll ever see production like 2011 from Manning or one of his receiving units again - offense simply isn't geared that way anymore.
2011:
Manning, 4,933 yds passing
Cruz, 1536 yds
Nicks, 1192 yds
Ballard, 604 yds
Manningham, 523 yds
Best receiving backs Manning has had were Barber and Ward. Would be nice to see similar production out of Perkins.
OBJ>>>>>>>>>>>Nicks
Nicks was awesome, but OBJ is on another level.
Cruz>>Shepard
I believe Shepard is the real deal, but he doesn't have the explosion that Cruz had.
Marshall>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Manningham
Manningham was a nice 3rd WR, but he was just ok. He had some big play ability, but also made his share of mistakes.
Who knows what we have in Engram, but he certainly has an insane amount of physical ability.
I will say that we've never had a WR that can consistently beat double coverage and also deals with triple coverage from time to time until Beckham came along. Engrams potential to be the 2nd best weapon in this offense makes me take this group over 2011, but obviously the games need to be played first.
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Nicks, Cruz, and Manningham in 2011. That trio was lethal.
I think when you said "lethal" it made me think that the original question posed by area junc can be split into two questions..
1. Is this the most talented group
2. will this be the most productive group
The answer to both may not be the same
If the OL even slightly improves, it should be a banner year.
This year tops them all when it's all said and done imo
Don't let that fool you - I'm optimistic, but not counting any chickens yet, and certainly not ready to say it's better than a trio who lit the place up and helped win a championship.
I distinctly remember Francessa saying in 2002 or so that this was the most talented group of Giant receivers he had ever seen. Toomer, Hilliard, Shockey and Tiki out of the backfield.
The 11' squad was great, obviously.
A healthy 07' squad was probably my favorite.
Plaxico, Toomer, Steve Smith, Jeremy Shockey, Kevin Boss, Brandon Jacobs, Derrick Ward and Ahmad Bradshaw.
Our skill positions were just loaded. I think this year all depends on the the progression of Shep and if Engram makes an impact right away.
This is a tough question thought, I think it's a 1a/b/c type of scenario.
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Nicks, Cruz, and Manningham in 2011. That trio was lethal.
I doubt we'll ever see production like 2011 from Manning or one of his receiving units again - offense simply isn't geared that way anymore.
2011:
Manning, 4,933 yds passing
Cruz, 1536 yds
Nicks, 1192 yds
Ballard, 604 yds
Manningham, 523 yds
Best receiving backs Manning has had were Barber and Ward. Would be nice to see similar production out of Perkins.
Also we have to consider the defense was putrid during most of the regular season in 2011. The team was carried by Eli and the offense most of the season which led to the inflated passing numbers (playing from behind).
I believe that was also the season Eli had a crazy high amount of come from behind 4th Q wins, setting or tying a record at the time.
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Barber and Shockey..
I distinctly remember Francessa saying in 2002 or so that this was the most talented group of Giant receivers he had ever seen. Toomer, Hilliard, Shockey and Tiki out of the backfield.
Manning was drafted in 2004. They used to say the Giants had the best set of skill set at receiver/running back in the the NFL in the Kerry Collins years. I think people are confusing things.
I do like that there is a variety of types now, tall, short fast (king is a keeper) slot, HB and so forth.
But, build the parts of the O sufficiently tat you can play one off of the other, then you will have something.
You must be the nostalgic type, because that 2011 OL wasn't exactly a world beater. That was the season Eli basically put the entire offense on his back and carried them to the SB.
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since our o-line is so bad. Give me the current Dallas O-line, Eli, and the 3 stooges and Eli will make them all 1000 receivers.
You must be the nostalgic type, because that 2011 OL wasn't exactly a world beater. That was the season Eli basically put the entire offense on his back and carried them to the SB.
Disagree. The 2011 line came together at the end and was at least average. Our tackle situation is a joke on paper right now. No comparison.
2007-2008. 1 Super Bowl. Eli, Plax, Toomer, Boss.
2011. 1 Super Bowl. Eli, Nicks, Manningham, Cruz, Ballard
Current. Eli, Marshall, Odel, Sheppard, Engram.
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In comment 13460102 ZGiants98 said:
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since our o-line is so bad. Give me the current Dallas O-line, Eli, and the 3 stooges and Eli will make them all 1000 receivers.
You must be the nostalgic type, because that 2011 OL wasn't exactly a world beater. That was the season Eli basically put the entire offense on his back and carried them to the SB.
Disagree. The 2011 line came together at the end and was at least average. Our tackle situation is a joke on paper right now. No comparison.
not true the starting tackles were 2 broken down players in dhiel and mckenzie...
the center could not stay healthy, they coukdnt run the ball for shit
Smith
Shockey
Bossman
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In comment 13460108 jcn56 said:
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In comment 13460102 ZGiants98 said:
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since our o-line is so bad. Give me the current Dallas O-line, Eli, and the 3 stooges and Eli will make them all 1000 receivers.
You must be the nostalgic type, because that 2011 OL wasn't exactly a world beater. That was the season Eli basically put the entire offense on his back and carried them to the SB.
Disagree. The 2011 line came together at the end and was at least average. Our tackle situation is a joke on paper right now. No comparison.
not true the starting tackles were 2 broken down players in dhiel and mckenzie...
the center could not stay healthy, they coukdnt run the ball for shit
Beatty, Snee, Diehl, and McKenzie was far from terrible. Yes we couldn't run the ball but Eli was kept upright for the majority of the year (Save for the San Fran playoff game).
who said this last year? We had Beckham and a rookie with a guy out of the league for 2 years and still no threat at TE... In fact, its been a long time since I personally have felt this way about our WR corps.
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In comment 13460112 ZGiants98 said:
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In comment 13460108 jcn56 said:
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In comment 13460102 ZGiants98 said:
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since our o-line is so bad. Give me the current Dallas O-line, Eli, and the 3 stooges and Eli will make them all 1000 receivers.
You must be the nostalgic type, because that 2011 OL wasn't exactly a world beater. That was the season Eli basically put the entire offense on his back and carried them to the SB.
Disagree. The 2011 line came together at the end and was at least average. Our tackle situation is a joke on paper right now. No comparison.
not true the starting tackles were 2 broken down players in dhiel and mckenzie...
the center could not stay healthy, they coukdnt run the ball for shit
Beatty, Snee, Diehl, and McKenzie was far from terrible. Yes we couldn't run the ball but Eli was kept upright for the majority of the year (Save for the San Fran playoff game).
dhiel and mckenzie could barely move, many threads on bbi saying how they wish dhiel was gone...
yeah they won a superbowl but lets not reweite history eli carried thag team..
just like all of a sudden they had a good defense, no they were an awful defense...
that was a mediocre team carried by an elite qb performancd that year
it was an awful offensive line and a mediocre team overall, i dont know how anyone can argue that...
go look at the stats of that team and tell me they were any better than mediocre..
there were people here saging they hoped the giants missed the playoffs because they would not do anything anyway
The current Dallas line lost Leary and Free we will see if they are still God as they have been ..... Our line is getting better you will see.....and the Dallas line hasn't won shit yet !
OBJ>>>>>>>>>>>Nicks
Nicks was awesome, but OBJ is on another level.
OBJ should pray that he can play like Nicks if he gets to the playoffs again.
"Ding, ding, ding..."
The lava flow of fandom this time of year is unreal.
Also, 2007?? Who on the 2007 team was half of OBJ?
Amani best Giants receiver ever
so every great player has come up big in his first ever playoff game?
Barber, Shockey, Toomer and Plax.
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In comment 13460112 ZGiants98 said:
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In comment 13460108 jcn56 said:
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In comment 13460102 ZGiants98 said:
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since our o-line is so bad. Give me the current Dallas O-line, Eli, and the 3 stooges and Eli will make them all 1000 receivers.
You must be the nostalgic type, because that 2011 OL wasn't exactly a world beater. That was the season Eli basically put the entire offense on his back and carried them to the SB.
Disagree. The 2011 line came together at the end and was at least average. Our tackle situation is a joke on paper right now. No comparison.
not true the starting tackles were 2 broken down players in dhiel and mckenzie...
the center could not stay healthy, they coukdnt run the ball for shit
Beatty, Snee, Diehl, and McKenzie was far from terrible. Yes we couldn't run the ball but Eli was kept upright for the majority of the year (Save for the San Fran playoff game).
They gave up the most pressures in the league. They stunk. Diehl and McKenzue were washed at that point, shot.
It obviously wasn't sustainable (which isn't a criticism of Eli), but people who don't acknowledge how bad that OL largely was then aren't giving Eli (and the WRs) the credit they deserve for that season.
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Big players do it in big spots. OBJ, for all that he is a "generational talent," came up small when the Giants needed him to come up big.
so every great player has come up big in his first ever playoff game?
No, but that's not the point. The point is that Nicks did and OBJ didn't. I don't care about who puts up better numbers in the regular season. I care about who goes above and beyond when the money is on the line. Nicks may not have had the talent that OBJ has, but he was a huge part of the Giants' last championship run.
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no offense to aj, but every year it's the same thing: best set of receivers ever. we so over rate our WR core, the only funny thing is that we do it every single year.
who said this last year? We had Beckham and a rookie with a guy out of the league for 2 years and still no threat at TE... In fact, its been a long time since I personally have felt this way about our WR corps.
I'm not going to dig up the posts to name names, but this absolutely was said last year (just with some "if Cruz is healthy..." attached).
fkap is right that this is sort of thing is claimed or boasted every single year by Giant fans/BBIers. It's like an annual tradition, right there with delusion over whatever developmental QB they have in camp,
Vs.
Flowers - Pugh - Richburg - Fluker - Hart
I agree, he came up small, but it was one game. He is a very young player and when all is said and done, he will produce when it matters most.
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In comment 13460180 Klaatu said:
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Big players do it in big spots. OBJ, for all that he is a "generational talent," came up small when the Giants needed him to come up big.
so every great player has come up big in his first ever playoff game?
No, but that's not the point. The point is that Nicks did and OBJ didn't. I don't care about who puts up better numbers in the regular season. I care about who goes above and beyond when the money is on the line. Nicks may not have had the talent that OBJ has, but he was a huge part of the Giants' last championship run.
Here is a question for you....Do the Giants make the playoffs last year without OBJ? Do they make the playoffs with Nicks instead of OBJ? I think both answers are no.
Umbrella - we happily dink and dunk underneath. DO NOT give McAdoo the short throw that has to be rule #1 around the NFL.
Cover 2 man, throw to the 1on1.
Cover 2 zone - Engram up the seam.
Double OBJ - back shoulder Marshall on the opposite side.
Play over the top of both OBJ and Marshall - Engram or Shepard with lots of room.
I think we will see teams having no choice but to mix dropping into a deep zone with trying to pressure our OLine and forcing Eli into mistakes. Disguising coverages will be key. Really you're going to have to get turnovers and fool Eli's pre-snap reads because you aren't matching up with this.
But I do worry about McAdoo more than most here: while he's steered the ship OK, he's shown very little as an innovative offensive mind IMO.
Fucking Baalke
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In comment 13460137 fkap said:
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no offense to aj, but every year it's the same thing: best set of receivers ever. we so over rate our WR core, the only funny thing is that we do it every single year.
who said this last year? We had Beckham and a rookie with a guy out of the league for 2 years and still no threat at TE... In fact, its been a long time since I personally have felt this way about our WR corps.
I'm not going to dig up the posts to name names, but this absolutely was said last year (just with some "if Cruz is healthy..." attached).
fkap is right that this is sort of thing is claimed or boasted every single year by Giant fans/BBIers. It's like an annual tradition, right there with delusion over whatever developmental QB they have in camp,
Meh, fans get excited, who cares? It's better than the incessant doom and gloom that goes on anytime the Giants don't win 45-0.
Umbrella - we happily dink and dunk underneath. DO NOT give McAdoo the short throw that has to be rule #1 around the NFL.
Cover 2 man, throw to the 1on1.
Cover 2 zone - Engram up the seam.
Double OBJ - back shoulder Marshall on the opposite side.
Play over the top of both OBJ and Marshall - Engram or Shepard with lots of room.
I think we will see teams having no choice but to mix dropping into a deep zone with trying to pressure our OLine and forcing Eli into mistakes. Disguising coverages will be key. Really you're going to have to get turnovers and fool Eli's pre-snap reads because you aren't matching up with this.
But I do worry about McAdoo more than most here: while he's steered the ship OK, he's shown very little as an innovative offensive mind IMO.
The true test may not come until the injuries hit, just have to hope the Giants dodge the injury bug (like they did last year until mid-December).
On the other hand, with our Offensive Tackles a defense doesn't have to cover guys for very long...
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In comment 13460060 Britt in VA said:
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Nicks, Cruz, and Manningham in 2011. That trio was lethal.
I doubt we'll ever see production like 2011 from Manning or one of his receiving units again - offense simply isn't geared that way anymore.
2011:
Manning, 4,933 yds passing
Cruz, 1536 yds
Nicks, 1192 yds
Ballard, 604 yds
Manningham, 523 yds
Best receiving backs Manning has had were Barber and Ward. Would be nice to see similar production out of Perkins.
Also we have to consider the defense was putrid during most of the regular season in 2011. The team was carried by Eli and the offense most of the season which led to the inflated passing numbers (playing from behind).
I believe that was also the season Eli had a crazy high amount of come from behind 4th Q wins, setting or tying a record at the time.
And our run game was terrible.
But that season was the peak of Gilbrides and Coughlins offense. For some reason that year it really all came together. Eli had time,we moved the ball down The field. The WR's made plays. I loved that passing offense.
Vereen will get hurt in his first or second game.
Toomer's best season 82 catches for 1,343 yards and 8 TDs - that was his most catches, yards, and TDs
Plaxico's best season 70 catches for 1,025 yards and 12 TDs - His most catches were 78, his most yards were 1,325, and 12 was his most TDs
Brandon Marshall's best season - 118 catches for 1,508 yards and 11 TDs - He has 6 100+ catch seasons with 118 being his most, 1,508 yards being the best and his best TDs were 14
OBJ's best season - 96 catches for 1,450 yards and 13 TDs - 101 is his most catches while 1,450 yards and 13 were his most TDs
Toomer and Plaxico in 24 seasons combined caught 1,221 catches for 17,996 yards, and 118 TDs
Marshall and OBJ in 14 seasons combined so far for 1,229 catches for 16,183 yards and 117 TDs
Those 2 guys alone are so much better than anybody we have ever had. We all know the OBJ is breaking records as fastest to this or 3rd fastest to this when it comes to stats. Brandon Marshall is 17th all time in total catches, he is 24th all time in total yards, and he is 18th in total receiving TDs all time. If he plays another 2 years at a low 60 catches, 750 yards, 5 TDs that would put him top 10 in catches, top 15 in all time receiving yards, and top 10 in career TD catches. The guy is amazing and think he will put that 60, 750, 5 numbers to shame. I would bet he is closer to 80, 1,100, 10 if healthy
On paper is just that....but it's fun to dream in May.
Fucking Baalke
Haha...
That's my old screensaver. Loved that group.
Toomer upgrade....he was never more than a good receiver and certainly not close to a HOF'er and I mean NOT CLOSE. Doubt he's even a candidate for a no. retirement or the Ring.
We are now playing with two receivers that look like they are going to be at least in the conversation for the Hall. With bad QB's Marshall has gone over the 1000 receiving mark almost every year of his career.
A Plax lover who valued his downfield blocking along with everything else, he's better than Toomer but not in a class wiht Marshall / Beckham.
And yes, I'm one of the blubbering optimists who thought Cruz / OBJ? Shepard had a chance to be superb...but always with the caveat that Cruz return to form; when that didn't happen the group was still more than pedestrian, but, at it's imagined peak, that group doesn't compare to this group.
I saw Shelkner, Rote, Gifford, this group is heads and shoulders (potentially) over any group the blue has ever lined up. And I for one, think the coversation will be (should be) is this potentially the best group EVER / Anywhere.
The two Hall of famers who played with Bradshaw were not, in my opinion, as good as Marshall and OBJ. I saw the two smerfs that Marino threw to and I saw Bambi and Hayes for Dallas....not as good either.
And I'll unapologetically stand by that statement...Vereen and Shepard as your potentially 4th and 5th alternatives kinda says it all. EVen King as your 6th. on the rung of the ladder talks to the depth.
Let Emphram (sp?) play up to his potential and this is an all time group not just the Giants best ever......
You have my permission, at least.LOL
Umbrella - we happily dink and dunk underneath. DO NOT give McAdoo the short throw that has to be rule #1 around the NFL.
Cover 2 man, throw to the 1on1.
Cover 2 zone - Engram up the seam.
Double OBJ - back shoulder Marshall on the opposite side.
Play over the top of both OBJ and Marshall - Engram or Shepard with lots of room.
I think we will see teams having no choice but to mix dropping into a deep zone with trying to pressure our OLine and forcing Eli into mistakes. Disguising coverages will be key. Really you're going to have to get turnovers and fool Eli's pre-snap reads because you aren't matching up with this.
But I do worry about McAdoo more than most here: while he's steered the ship OK, he's shown very little as an innovative offensive mind IMO.
You have my permission, at least.LOL
LOL thanks. I should have replied to Mike in Long Beach though.
In terms of offensive innovator? Please. Our offense consistently did jack squat all year and was as basic as any you will ever see in the NFL. I said he had a personnel excuse - just as he had the excuse of having to merge and work awkwardly with TC his 1st 2 years.
This year? No more excuses. We need to see a professional offense at work.