Some things to ponder.....

and the OP touches on it, is in regard to Macadoo's qualifications.

I blame him and not Cruz for the Miami trip. I have read (and believe) that the firm inviolate tradition is that the team returns as a team. There have been instances where a player had business in a town, took the plane home with his teammates and re-boarded to return to the town he'd just left.
Conciliatory, enabling behaviour usually starts with an effort to please/ to be popular and that's born from a lack of confidence and a greater lack of leadership skills.
Mac, in the versions I read, gave permission for the WR corp to skip the heretfore mandatory ride home.
I see the same lack of confidence and leadership ability in his reluctance to give up the clipboard. Leadership delegates authority and sits on top of the pyramid, not on one of the rungs. In a host of gossamer thin assertions offered here, this clipboard thing is solid...it is counterproductive, it's insecure, it's awful.
Our offense traded Randolph for Shep, Lewis and King, Tye, Flowers and Hart were entering the second year of reasonably expect exponential growth..And Cruz was replacing Harris.
We should have been better and instead the decline was precipitous and terminal. I choose to blame that on coaching. Offer up a dozen excuses and maybe that's accounts for lack of improvement but this was about going backwards - until you found the cliff's edge and one more step.
Unimaginative predictable play calling , formati0ns and personnel sets. Aided, no doubt, by the lack of a fullback but that hardly accounts for it. And if you want to say we had no tight end...we had better than the year before.
I am sure there's a cogent case that rebuts all this amateur's thoughts and assertions, but for the time being I'm a skeptic - hoping to be dead wrong.

Did you mean Randle? That was worthwhile addition by subtraction!

Last year's regression of the offense was a concern but the Giants were 11-5.

Now, Cruz for Rueben Randle was mistake....but some of the pull back of the offense can be the Giants putting it on defense to seal games.

But If Eli is on notice....so is McAdoo and I trust Eli more than I trust McAdoo.

I do not know enough about it to tell you who should call the plays.

when Cruz couldn't get an inch of separation along with a bottom tier TE group?

In comment 13463501 UConn4523 said:

Quote:

when Cruz couldn't get an inch of separation along with a bottom tier TE group?

I don't have an answer to that but it is something I expect my professional HC/OC to be able to find a solution to .

You're not being fair in your mcadoo criticisms. You and many others continue to use 2015 as some sort of condemnation of mcadoo's 2016 offense. The 2015 giants lost 10 games. That HAS to count for something when we evaluate that offense. It has to. The 2016 giants won 11 games. That has to count for something. Was that 2015 offense really that good? Was it a sustainable model? Beckham was ripping off big monster plays literally every single week if not twice a week in 2015. Is it all possible that Defenses finally figured out how to Limit the big plays from Beckham? What else did the 2015 offense do better than 2016? It had vereen all year and Jennings was one year younger. Pugh wasn't hurt. Richburg wasn't hurt.

I'm not saying to vault mcadoo to offensive geniuse category but I think it's unfair to say the 2016 offense woefully underachieved compared to 2015 while placing blame at mcadoo as if he held them back.

If 2015 was just OBJ overachieving.....what has McAdoo accomplished?

Which any rational and logical nyg fan should be doing here, let's be honest we had a rookie HC running the show. The offense was in many big ways in transition. And there is evidence of growth and potential that we actually didn't really see years prior. We emerged from 2016 with a young up and coming slot WR. A young up and coming RB. A LT that did in fact improve in his second year and play better in December. The aforementioned rookie HC sharpened his teeth and made the playoffs. What happened in 2015 meant and still means nothing. Why bring up that year and use it as some sort of indictment? Totally unfair in my view. We made the playoffs in 2016.

In comment 13463522 George from PA said:

Quote:

If 2015 was just OBJ overachieving.....what has McAdoo accomplished?

He's been in the league for 15 years now. He presided as OC for two here. I don't understand the question. Are you saying mcadoo shouldn't have been hired? I'm not. What I'm saying is it's ridiculous to sit here like grizz does every day and bash mcadoo for failing to "build on" what the 2015 offense "accomplished." It's apples and oranges. The 2015 offense was a different team and time. Let's build on 2016. The giants addressed things that needed attention.

And I thought 2015 was the reason McAdoo got promoted.

.

Do you trust Eli to dive into a pile and hold onto the ball at the same time? I love Eli but he is a fumble machine at times like that. Weird, strange fumbles too!

Let's make history again and beat all those teams off the bye AND all those west coast teams.

All those games are winnable....Raiders might be toughest but a grreat game to steal!

we will need to have a decent rotation on the DL....so they are not spent. Glad Seattle is at home.

You are making things up to prove a point. He missed 2 games. He is either a lazy, pussy who didn't feel like playing 2 games or he was hurt.

This isn't the first time that you were caught making shit up. I called you out on another untruth in another thread that you never responded to.

He won 11 games on his rookie season.

Tough crowd.

In comment 13463690 LakeGeorgeGiant said:

Quote:

He won 11 games on his rookie season. Tough crowd.

I don't think it is so much as anxiety as an unwillingness to coronate him. Despite the musings of DJM, Ben was hired based on his success with the offense. His first year the offense was anemic. Yes, we won 11 games on the back of our defense. With the off-season additions to the offense, Ben won't have any excuse to not get the offense back on track. If he fails this year, he'll be entering the final year of his contract. An extension isn't a given and the Giants typically do not have their HC in a lame duck season. Mara just might realize that the success of the team isn't attributable to Ben, but rather the efforts of Spags and his defense.

Ben might be the answer at HC for a long time, but everyone needs to pump the brakes and realize that this is a pivotal year for him and his staff.

But barring a total collapse I don't see McAdoo going anywhere for a long while. For better or worse, shifting gears quickly isn't the Giants MO.

In comment 13463467 grizz299 said:

Quote:

and the OP touches on it, is in regard to Macadoo's qualifications. I blame him and not Cruz for the Miami trip. I have read (and believe) that the firm inviolate tradition is that the team returns as a team. There have been instances where a player had business in a town, took the plane home with his teammates and re-boarded to return to the town he'd just left. Conciliatory, enabling behaviour usually starts with an effort to please/ to be popular and that's born from a lack of confidence and a greater lack of leadership skills. Mac, in the versions I read, gave permission for the WR corp to skip the heretfore mandatory ride home. I see the same lack of confidence and leadership ability in his reluctance to give up the clipboard. Leadership delegates authority and sits on top of the pyramid, not on one of the rungs. In a host of gossamer thin assertions offered here, this clipboard thing is solid...it is counterproductive, it's insecure, it's awful. Our offense traded Randolph for Shep, Lewis and King, Tye, Flowers and Hart were entering the second year of reasonably expect exponential growth..And Cruz was replacing Harris. We should have been better and instead the decline was precipitous and terminal. I choose to blame that on coaching. Offer up a dozen excuses and maybe that's accounts for lack of improvement but this was about going backwards - until you found the cliff's edge and one more step. Unimaginative predictable play calling , formati0ns and personnel sets. Aided, no doubt, by the lack of a fullback but that hardly accounts for it. And if you want to say we had no tight end...we had better than the year before. I am sure there's a cogent case that rebuts all this amateur's thoughts and assertions, but for the time being I'm a skeptic - hoping to be dead wrong.

Grizz: Can McAdoo control where they go on their day off ? As for predictability, you know who runs a truly predictable offense ? Dallas. They have three running plays . They do use many more formations and personnel groups than the Giants. The stuff that they do, however, is vanilla.

The Giants did a good job holding in them down in '16 with Spagnuolo using a sort of General Winter attrition strategy that the Russians did to Napolean. Constrict the field. Stop them in close. Make them kick field goals. I am sure the Giants will be the focal point of their off-season study.

Nowhere above do I read the play of the Giants QB being a cause for concern. With Eli , he is afforded perpetual victimhood status . He's a prime concern for me. Too many God-awful throws at iinopportune times .
Plus the defenses they face this season aren't going to sit back and allow all of those weapons to get into the passing tree. Pressures will be designed to keep would-be receivers in. So we are back to a questonabkr line blocking for an immobile quarterback, who ditches early against pressure , real or imaginary .

Eli had to fight cover two all year because he had one real receiver, no deep threat at tight end, poor running game and a questionable offensive line. Hopefully, these problems will now be resolved. Looking forward to 2017.

In the last game of the season. For him to have his team prepared for a game where they had nothing to win against a team that was one and done was a masterful piece of coaching. They dominated a desperate Washington team with nothing to play for but pride. And that's on top of an 11 win season with a sweep of Dallas. Nothing predicts the future but doubting McAdoo off last season shows a complete lack of understanding of what good coaching is.

In comment 13463531 George from PA said:

Quote:

And I thought 2015 was the reason McAdoo got promoted.

Ok. And I'm not disputing that. But the 2016 offense was not the same as the 2015 offense. The team was different. The HC was different. The 2015 offense is history and I'll say it again it was overrated. 2016 proved that. Build on 2016.

the team is loaded with young talent, and the giants are actively pursuing the qb heir apparent.

In comment 13463717 Tark10 said:

Quote:

Eli had to fight cover two all year because he had one real receiver, no deep threat at tight end, poor running game and a questionable offensive line. Hopefully, these problems will now be resolved. Looking forward to 2017.

eli did not play well. he will have all the toys available this year, hopefully he thrives. I still this he's retiring in a few years, hopefully after another ring or 2 [love their chances this year]

about McAdoo being our HC and wasn't happy that he was hred as our OC. I say this because as someone mentioned earlier he has been in the league 15 years so 13 of those years he was a positions coach. That brings up the question -- Why was he not ever elevated to the OC position before he was hired by the NYG? That is a long time to be a Pos coach and never held a Coordinators position.

McAdoo last season showed no chane from game to game let alone in game adjustments. Someone mentioned HE WON 11 GAMES!! == Did he win them, or did Spag's defense win them? The way the defense played I give those wins to Spags. Especially since the Defense took OVER 1000 Snaps. Yes hard to believe but our defense was on the field for over 1000 snaps. That is a ridiculous number of defensive plays.

SO how do you credit McAdoo with all those wins when the Defense played more snaps than the Offense?

In comment 13463689 Diver_Down said:

Quote:

You are making things up to prove a point. He missed 2 games. He is either a lazy, pussy who didn't feel like playing 2 games or he was hurt. This isn't the first time that you were caught making shit up. I called you out on another untruth in another thread that you never responded to.

What untruth? Please enlighten me.

Pugh missed more games in 2016 than 2015 but that's not even my main point. Richburg was also hurt. Again not my main point but whatever, you're hell bent on blaming mcadoo for the offense's struggles last year without looking at the mitigating factors. And you and many others not only overrate the 2015 offense you insist on looking at both offensive seasons in a vacuum.

And it's funny how we use the 2015 offensive "success" as some sort of indictment on mcadoo. He was the OC but the guy apparently forgot how to run an offense. Ami right? You're implying just that.

But i can't anyone seriously when they discredit the HC with a supposed offensive mind because the Defense carried the team to victory. You don't know what the hell youre talking about it when you go that route. Mcadoo isn't a defensive HC? Says who exactly? You? Oh that's nice. The day mcadoo was hired he replied "that's news to me" when a reporter asked or assumed he was an offensive minded HC.

Mcadoo is the HC. Period. He gets credit when the team wins and bashed when the team loses. His job is to formate a game plan and guide the team through the trials and rigors of an NFL season.

Wasn't Tom Landry DC for the giants before crafting a legendary NFL head coaching career on the backs of an innovative offense in Dallas? Not that the doomsday D wasn't great but everyone thinks offense when they think landry's cowboys.

The 2014 and 2015 offenses are ancient history. Comparing this team to that and using them against mcadoo now is just ridiculous. Rashad Jennings had two legs that worked those two seasons when he was playing. Vereen was playing in 2015. Donnell wasn't the worst player in football yet. The OL was in fact healthier in 2015. The defenses were historically bad both seasons. The giants Game planned differently.

Maybe we should give mcadoo one more year to take his offense to the next level perhaps? And maybe it's worth noting that the offense was devoid of a single legit play maker after Beckham and maybe Shepard, who was a rookie. And maybe it's worth noting that the team won more games in 2016 than it had the two previous seasons combined with mcadoo running the show. Let him do his thing and win games any which way he sees fit.

In comment 13463927 djm said:

Quote:

In comment 13463689 Diver_Down said: Quote: You are making things up to prove a point. He missed 2 games. He is either a lazy, pussy who didn't feel like playing 2 games or he was hurt. This isn't the first time that you were caught making shit up. I called you out on another untruth in another thread that you never responded to. What untruth? Please enlighten me. Your 9:43PM post, 1st paragraph, 2nd to last sentence. You claimed that Pugh wasn't hurt. That is not true. The other untruth is linked below.

Only 2 QBs? - ( New Window )

Right I don't have the decency to admit I'm wrong because i forgot to respond to an older thread and forgot about frickin Rhett bomar and Woodson, both Late round picks.

You win! I was wrong the giants have drafted two additional qbs. My point remains that they haven't exactly spent a lot of draft resources on a qb under Reese. Two legit draft picks since Eli and even a 4th rounder on nassib isn't exactly a big price.

Keep on fighting the good fight.

In comment 13463531 George from PA said:

Quote:

And I thought 2015 was the reason McAdoo got promoted.

Agreed, but you I have hope that McAdoo is a smart guy, analyzed the faults in the offense and that the Giants made a gameplan to resolve it:

Step 1: Get a legit #2 WR with size to put opposite of Odell.

Step 2: Add a play making Tight End

Step 3: Improve offensive line play

Step 4: Improve running game / players.

Step 5: Adjust plays/scheme to reflect improvement in steps 1-4.

Arguments can easily be made that we didn't really hit on 3 and 4, but even improving half the problems gives this offense a good chance to be better. Step 5 is on McAdoo.

I have a hard time condemning mcadoo for any offensive struggles last year because simply put, the giants had a very year in 2016. The HC gets credit when the team wins and blame when they lose. And further, bashing mcadoo under a belief that the offense underachieved based on 2015 is both a stretch and unfair.

Anyone who discredits a HC because "the other side of the ball" bailed him out is 100% lost.. It's an awful argument.

I am by no means anointing mcadoo. Hardly. So don't go putting words in my mouth or anyone else as I haven't seen one BBIer attribute too much credit to mcadoo just yet. It's obviously early in the game. I did see some posts on this very thread saying some were doing that. Bullshit.

But the entire offense should be on notice and the leader is McAdoo.

Happy to give him credit for the defense but I feel Spags runs the defense....and deserve the majority of the credit. McAdoo as Reese and the owners allowed the FA spending to lead to the revival of the defense.

McAdoo deserves all the credit for the turnaround in the players health and their 11-5 record.....as much he gets the hit for the disappointing end to the season.

Will we stay healthy again this year ? I wasn't nuts about the draft . I think the Hankins situation screwed the pooch for use as we again had to use a high roind pick on a DT makes one thing that we blew it with the Bromely pick .
Could they have waited one more year to take a QB in a weak
IMO QB class this year ? then we take a RB who I am not so
sure whats the big difference between Wayne Gallman and Paul Perkins . I wanted Njoku but they settled on Engram in the 1st although I like the size and upside a bit more not going to complain at least we upgraded one of the worst positions
in the NFL .
I would have rather gone with a Dion Dawkins who I wanted in the 2nd round who I think is gonna be a good one .
We take Webb in the 3rd where as I wanted D'Onta Foremen who is an every down back with decent speed and power .
Engram could have a big year and Webb could be the QB of the future if those two things don't occur then this draft
will be a major disappointment . I also liked Carlos Watkins late as decent guy in the rotation that has size and some pass rush skills . So we shall see how this all pans out .

I wasn't directing that to you. Sorry if it came off that way.

should rely on the Defense since his Offense clearly wasn't working in 2016. And he road it as far as it would take him...first round of the playoffs.

Now if he wants our credit in 2017, do something to further the progress...

Really if it simply runs the ball a little bit better and a few less turnovers we will be much better off. The receiving options will help tilt the field but the running game has to be better. It doesn't have to dominate but 4 ypc would be nice. And eliminate some of those ungodly turnovers. The rest will take care of itself.

In comment 13463496 George from PA said:

Quote:

Last year's regression of the offense was a concern but the Giants were 11-5. Now, Cruz for Rueben Randle was mistake....but some of the pull back of the offense can be the Giants putting it on defense to seal games. But If Eli is on notice....so is McAdoo and I trust Eli more than I trust McAdoo. I do not know enough about it to tell you who should call the plays.

yes the Giants were 11-5 last year but that number is definitely a misleading one because I would think they were more lucky than talented to get there, be truthful, did you really feel they were a very good team last season or just very lucky..

That the Giants would be 11-5 and never score > 30 points, and only top 22 pts 4 times, I'd say "this must be 1980 something."

It's no wonder we had to sweat out the D holding slim leads.
Reminds me of the Harry Carson mantra, just score 17 and D will guarantee a win. This offense is better that that.

Better production in the red/"green" zone is pivotal. Marshall, a seasoned Sheppard, and Engram should help there assume Eli stays upright.

In comment 13464830 Jersey55 said:

Quote:

In comment 13463496 George from PA said: Quote: Last year's regression of the offense was a concern but the Giants were 11-5. Now, Cruz for Rueben Randle was mistake....but some of the pull back of the offense can be the Giants putting it on defense to seal games. But If Eli is on notice....so is McAdoo and I trust Eli more than I trust McAdoo. I do not know enough about it to tell you who should call the plays. yes the Giants were 11-5 last year but that number is definitely a misleading one because I would think they were more lucky than talented to get there, be truthful, did you really feel they were a very good team last season or just very lucky..

When they beat Dallas and Det in back to back weeks during December I felt that the Giants finally earned their stripes. When they beat the Skins this further boosted their status in my view.

I will say this, you don't want to make a living playing in so many close games. Yes, the NFL as a whole is very tight week to week but good to great teams need a few 10 pt wins or a few games that don't get too hairy at the end. You play with fire you will get burned no matter how talented a team you have.

The Giants need to play better in 2017 but their is a lot to work with here.