“I feel good about where I’m at. … The guard market has gone up. I definitely have taken notice. I’ve seen what these guys are getting. I’ve seen guys that I came in with.
who gives a "hometown discount" on their 2nd contract after their rookie deal is up, is a bad businessman. The 2nd contract is the one which players need to fully max out their earning potential because that is their best negotiating position. Pugh should want to get paid and there is no reason (outside an injury) that he won't get in the range of the guard market. John Jerry signed a 3 year deal, I wouldn't be shocked if the Giants did so as insurance in case Pugh leaves.
What I'm curious about, if you go back to the mid 2000s, the Giants were pretty good at locking in their core players prior to free agency (see Tuck and Osi). They haven't done it really since. Odell would be the most obvious choice, but the Giants look like they will simply play the game where they lock him in with his 5th year option and then slap a franchise tag on him. I suppose the reality is that if you look at all the draft busts the previous 5-6 years, this issue never came up because the players didn't really pan out. But that looks to be changing more recently.
I think there is an argument to be made for taking a discount to stay in a system and with coaches/players who will let you earn your full contract. Take WRs -- look at how often they bust in free agency and get cut after a year or two. It might be better to stay put at 90% of the money, with a QB who trusts you and a system you thrive in.
Agreed. Pugh is a very good player, but guards are being paid ridiculous amounts right now. I don't blame them. Everyone should get whatever they can. I just don't want to pay that much for him.
I wonder if the Giants will keep an extra OL this year on the 53 as some insurance against Pugh leaving. And as someone said, that may have also been why they resigned Jerry to a three year deal.
Agreed I love Pugh but I wouldn't offer him more than 8-9 million annually because of his concussion history. I will be keeping a close eye on Dunker and Bisnowaty this preseason because they may be battling for the starting LG spot next year if Bisnowaty does not remain at OT.
I know you're kidding but I hope Jerry never starts another game for the Giants. He is fine depth but I am hoping that Fluker or even Hart win the RG spot because I am tired of watching Jerry and his poor run blocking at RG.
He is probably the best lineman they have . . . he is not going to be easily replaced. The nice thing about a OL guy....is you can amortized that bonus over more years as OL typically have longer careers.
Agreed. Pugh is a very good player, but guards are being paid ridiculous amounts right now. I don't blame them. Everyone should get whatever they can. I just don't want to pay that much for him.
I wonder if the Giants will keep an extra OL this year on the 53 as some insurance against Pugh leaving. And as someone said, that may have also been why they resigned Jerry to a three year deal.
Some of it is just cap inflation -- everyone is getting paid more because revenues are higher but there arent any more NFL jobs.
Also, I wonder whether the way players are getting chewed up right now with injuries means there are fewer players in the league worthy of 2nd and 3rd contracts, meaning that there is more money for fewer players seeking post rookie deals.
both interesting and challenging. The team is going to need to find a way to pay or replace 2 or 3 of its OL starters (Pugh, Weston, and Fluker (assuming he wins a starting role)). JR will need to pull a rabbit out of his hat to fit these guys in under the cap, or some of the young guys will need to step-up, or we can hope for a draft deep in OL. Funny how this OL has been a never ending work-in-progress since the 2011 championship season.
I know you're kidding but I hope Jerry never starts another game for the Giants. He is fine depth but I am hoping that Fluker or even Hart win the RG spot because I am tired of watching Jerry and his poor run blocking at RG.
I am. Im a little frustrated the Giants didnt do more this offseason to help the line. Times running out for Eli. Ugh. All we can do is hope for the best I guess.
Pugh wont get above that 10 million per annually.. Â
..if he misses more than one game next year.. His level of skill as a guard is on that top tier level so he should look for that kind of money but he better play at a high level AND stay healthy..
As a Giants fan i would like to see him locked up now but i understand there reasons.. Pugh just hasnt stayed healthy over the course of his NFL career.
I can see Pugh getting a 6 year 60 million dollar deal next spring.. Weston on the other hand has more to prove as a player than Pugh does IMO, Pugh's biggest question is health, with Richburg i question his consistency. He played really well in year 2, his first year at Center, but he has to do it again.
Unless they both have great seasons that compell you to lock them up ASAP i can see one of Pugh or Richburg getting franchise tagged next year.. They would be the only logical candidates off the top of my head. Interior OL franchise tags cant be too bad.
OL so you're not held hostage to paying elite dollars to less than elite players at less than elite positions.
Pugh may be a good guard, but it's not like he's elevating the play of anyone around him. I don't think I noticed a huge difference in the line play with or without him, or at least not enough to give out elite dollars.
He's injury prone and fucks off too much. He is the very definition of JAG and he thinks he's breaking the bank? Not here he's not, I say good riddance after this season.
I think a lot of teams must be bad at drafting and developing Â
I am frustrated too as I am sure everyone is. I am very excited about Chad Wheeler though. I think he is going to surprise and may even be a starter in 2-3 years. Dunker is a nice prospect also. He won't be ready for at least a year but he is a great athlete who can be a very good LG some day. If I think the Giants are going to have to choose between Pugh and Richburg and I think they will go with Richburg unless Brett Jones looks great this preseason and continues to progress. They are overlooked but the Giants have four very intriguing young offensive linemen in Jones, Wheeler, Dunker, and Bisnowaty. Let's hope that Solari can develop these kids like he did with Brian Waters, Casey Weigmann, Alex Boone, etc.
Above average player on a shitty unit. Paying him more to keep the status quo is not acceptable. Wish him well, and use the money to make improvements.
We suck, and I mean suck on the O-line. Yet the lion's share of posts above are to run off one of the few bright spots we have in that unit in Pugh.
I am clearly not advocating making him the highest paid Guard in the land but please let me know what JAG you want to replace him with to save money.
This years Free agent olineman weren't worth it, poor draft for lineman in 2017...lets keep kicking this unit's restructuring down the road I guess for all the future GMs above...
who gives a "hometown discount" on their 2nd contract after their rookie deal is up, is a bad businessman. The 2nd contract is the one which players need to fully max out their earning potential because that is their best negotiating position.
I'm not sure I agree with this. There are costs involved in switching teams. Some of those are obvious (moving, sale of home, uprooting family, etc.) and others not so much.
An example of a cost that isn't so easy to measure is the opportunity costs that you lose when you play "offensive guard for hire".
For one, playing for a losing organization simply because it pays the most money on your second contract very well may be a mistake. Yes, you might end up with a few million more dollars on your contract, but think about what winning a super bowl can do for your lifetime earnings. Even if you never win a SB, just appearing in the playoffs regularly can give you tremendous advantages in your post-playing career.
This is especially true for certain organizations. NYG is one of them - the media opportunities that exist in NY are amplified when you've won a title, even for league-average guys like David Diehl, in ways that wouldn't be imaginable had he played in a place like Cleveland. As much as I hate to admit it, Dallas is another franchise with that kind of advantage. While Witten hasn't ever won a SB (and I don't expect he ever will), he likely has done better for himself by staying in Dallas than by leaving to go somewhere for a few million more per year.
Even in an organization that doesn't have a ton of success, it may be better to stay than to leave, if you are a star on your team. Thomas in Cleveland is an example of such a guy. He has made good enough money there, even if he might have made more elsewhere. When you combine those earning with his lifetime post-career opportunities in the Cleveland market, it probably didn't make sense for him to transfer to say, Tampa, even if they would have paid him more.
I'm not saying that it never makes sense, and I don't begrudge a guy leaving for more money, but it isn't as simple as you've put it. Tom Brady is the most famous example of why it might be best to stay. Is he a "bad businessman"?
this year is in part due to the fact that there were few solutions in the draft or otherwise. I haven't done the analysis for next year, but it would be foolish to expect the same treatment just because.
It's supply and demand - gotta look at how many teams are in need next year, how many free agents and of what quality they are, and how special the rookie class looks before teams will shell out the big bucks.
Seen the Giants get ridiculed for not resigning high picks to 2nd contracts. Do you really want to? Getting 4 years, then a 5th year option, then a 6th year at franchise if the guy's still great. After that you're talking about giving a guy with 6 years wear N tear in the NFL a huge contract to keep going, in a league full of young legs.
Unless youve got a JPP level guy - a special player - why the stubbornness signing to 2nd contracts?
We've seen over a number of years that the price for known-commodity offensive linemen have exploded. Teams around the league are shorthanded, and the college system has not been serving the demand.
Prices aren't going down until we start getting more linemen that can play. This past draft hammers that point home even more. Fewest linemen taken in the early rounds in the modern era.
And I'm sure he knows it. His replacement is most definitely not on the roster and he's currently the best player on a subpar OL. The NYG will likely have no choice but to resign him. I'm no fan of Pugh, I think he's pretty average at best, but he's going to get paid by the NYG next spring.
I'd give a long, hard look at his concussion history Â
Not strong enough at the point of attack for big money and Giants will not pay big money for an interior lineman. They already made that mistake with Snee, who was a way better player.
Giants pay for DE, CB, and OT. If you pay attention to their tendencies, you will realize Pugh is very unlikely to get a mega deal with a lot of guaranteed money. Just not the way the Giants do business
RE: I'd give a long, hard look at his concussion history Â
Have NYG by the balls. He has a long injury history. A team like the Browns will over pay him. Goodbye and good luck. The team will figure out a way to be ok without him. ALL players are replaceable. JUst because this years draft was light on OL, last year was not.
I am frustrated too as I am sure everyone is. I am very excited about Chad Wheeler though. I think he is going to surprise and may even be a starter in 2-3 years. Dunker is a nice prospect also. He won't be ready for at least a year but he is a great athlete who can be a very good LG some day. If I think the Giants are going to have to choose between Pugh and Richburg and I think they will go with Richburg unless Brett Jones looks great this preseason and continues to progress. They are overlooked but the Giants have four very intriguing young offensive linemen in Jones, Wheeler, Dunker, and Bisnowaty. Let's hope that Solari can
develop these kids like he did with Brian Waters, Casey Weigmann, Alex
Boone, etc.
I don't know Jay Bisnowaty I think has got the most potential but I just don't see it in the tape on Wheeler ,Dunker,jones as a matter of fact they look down right lousy to me but I think Bis is the real deal ! We will see
We suck, and I mean suck on the O-line. Yet the lion's share of posts above are to run off one of the few bright spots we have in that unit in Pugh.
I am clearly not advocating making him the highest paid Guard in the land but please let me know what JAG you want to replace him with to save money.
This years Free agent olineman weren't worth it, poor draft for lineman in 2017...lets keep kicking this unit's restructuring down the road I guess for all the future GMs above...
^^^This. Let's jettison one of the few solid OL on an under performing unit so we can keep lamenting how bad the OL is.
Pay him as an average starter? I guess that's OK but look at the job Brett Jones did when he actually filled in for Pugh. Is the delta in play worth $7M+? You can find G's. I still think Flowers should be playing G and moving him there to replace Pugh in free agency next year is a very real possibility if his play doesn't improve.
Think this may turn out just like Hankins - we aren't interested at the dollars he 's able to get elsewhere.
my reaction is always, "well yeah...every player is looking to max out their income"
Joel Bitonio six-year, $51.2 million Browns
Laurent Duvernay-Tardif five-year, $42.36 million Chiefs
Three guards, zero Pro Bowls.
Based on the market what's Pugh worth to keep? Is 5/45 a reasonable starting point?
What I'm curious about, if you go back to the mid 2000s, the Giants were pretty good at locking in their core players prior to free agency (see Tuck and Osi). They haven't done it really since. Odell would be the most obvious choice, but the Giants look like they will simply play the game where they lock him in with his 5th year option and then slap a franchise tag on him. I suppose the reality is that if you look at all the draft busts the previous 5-6 years, this issue never came up because the players didn't really pan out. But that looks to be changing more recently.
Agreed. Pugh is a very good player, but guards are being paid ridiculous amounts right now. I don't blame them. Everyone should get whatever they can. I just don't want to pay that much for him.
I wonder if the Giants will keep an extra OL this year on the 53 as some insurance against Pugh leaving. And as someone said, that may have also been why they resigned Jerry to a three year deal.
Don't worry. As is almost always the case in these deals, if he plays well, somebody else will.
Agreed I love Pugh but I wouldn't offer him more than 8-9 million annually because of his concussion history. I will be keeping a close eye on Dunker and Bisnowaty this preseason because they may be battling for the starting LG spot next year if Bisnowaty does not remain at OT.
I know you're kidding but I hope Jerry never starts another game for the Giants. He is fine depth but I am hoping that Fluker or even Hart win the RG spot because I am tired of watching Jerry and his poor run blocking at RG.
Joel Bitonio six-year, $51.2 million Browns
Laurent Duvernay-Tardif five-year, $42.36 million Chiefs
Three guards, zero Pro Bowls.
Based on the market what's Pugh worth to keep? Is 5/45 a reasonable starting point?
Pro bowls are popularity contests especially with offensive linemen. Bitonio is one of the league's best guards and Zeitler is up there as well.
Quote:
$12M, it does not compute.
Agreed. Pugh is a very good player, but guards are being paid ridiculous amounts right now. I don't blame them. Everyone should get whatever they can. I just don't want to pay that much for him.
I wonder if the Giants will keep an extra OL this year on the 53 as some insurance against Pugh leaving. And as someone said, that may have also been why they resigned Jerry to a three year deal.
Some of it is just cap inflation -- everyone is getting paid more because revenues are higher but there arent any more NFL jobs.
Also, I wonder whether the way players are getting chewed up right now with injuries means there are fewer players in the league worthy of 2nd and 3rd contracts, meaning that there is more money for fewer players seeking post rookie deals.
Even $10M per for a guard makes me queasy. I see Pugh as a versatile but average player.
Quote:
$12M, it does not compute.
Even $10M per for a guard makes me queasy. I see Pugh as a versatile but average player.
I agree with both of you.
Quote:
Move Jerry to LG. Who cares about the line?
I know you're kidding but I hope Jerry never starts another game for the Giants. He is fine depth but I am hoping that Fluker or even Hart win the RG spot because I am tired of watching Jerry and his poor run blocking at RG.
I am. Im a little frustrated the Giants didnt do more this offseason to help the line. Times running out for Eli. Ugh. All we can do is hope for the best I guess.
As a Giants fan i would like to see him locked up now but i understand there reasons.. Pugh just hasnt stayed healthy over the course of his NFL career.
I can see Pugh getting a 6 year 60 million dollar deal next spring.. Weston on the other hand has more to prove as a player than Pugh does IMO, Pugh's biggest question is health, with Richburg i question his consistency. He played really well in year 2, his first year at Center, but he has to do it again.
Unless they both have great seasons that compell you to lock them up ASAP i can see one of Pugh or Richburg getting franchise tagged next year.. They would be the only logical candidates off the top of my head. Interior OL franchise tags cant be too bad.
K?
I agree with this 100%. Of course fans will call him greedy or selfish once he is at the negotiating table, which is pretty lame IMO.
Bitonio has been in the league 3 years and has missed 16 games
I think Pugh is better than Zeitler due to his versatility - he is going to get paid
Pugh may be a good guard, but it's not like he's elevating the play of anyone around him. I don't think I noticed a huge difference in the line play with or without him, or at least not enough to give out elite dollars.
I am clearly not advocating making him the highest paid Guard in the land but please let me know what JAG you want to replace him with to save money.
This years Free agent olineman weren't worth it, poor draft for lineman in 2017...lets keep kicking this unit's restructuring down the road I guess for all the future GMs above...
I'm not sure I agree with this. There are costs involved in switching teams. Some of those are obvious (moving, sale of home, uprooting family, etc.) and others not so much.
An example of a cost that isn't so easy to measure is the opportunity costs that you lose when you play "offensive guard for hire".
For one, playing for a losing organization simply because it pays the most money on your second contract very well may be a mistake. Yes, you might end up with a few million more dollars on your contract, but think about what winning a super bowl can do for your lifetime earnings. Even if you never win a SB, just appearing in the playoffs regularly can give you tremendous advantages in your post-playing career.
This is especially true for certain organizations. NYG is one of them - the media opportunities that exist in NY are amplified when you've won a title, even for league-average guys like David Diehl, in ways that wouldn't be imaginable had he played in a place like Cleveland. As much as I hate to admit it, Dallas is another franchise with that kind of advantage. While Witten hasn't ever won a SB (and I don't expect he ever will), he likely has done better for himself by staying in Dallas than by leaving to go somewhere for a few million more per year.
Even in an organization that doesn't have a ton of success, it may be better to stay than to leave, if you are a star on your team. Thomas in Cleveland is an example of such a guy. He has made good enough money there, even if he might have made more elsewhere. When you combine those earning with his lifetime post-career opportunities in the Cleveland market, it probably didn't make sense for him to transfer to say, Tampa, even if they would have paid him more.
I'm not saying that it never makes sense, and I don't begrudge a guy leaving for more money, but it isn't as simple as you've put it. Tom Brady is the most famous example of why it might be best to stay. Is he a "bad businessman"?
It's supply and demand - gotta look at how many teams are in need next year, how many free agents and of what quality they are, and how special the rookie class looks before teams will shell out the big bucks.
Unless youve got a JPP level guy - a special player - why the stubbornness signing to 2nd contracts?
Prices aren't going down until we start getting more linemen that can play. This past draft hammers that point home even more. Fewest linemen taken in the early rounds in the modern era.
Giants pay for DE, CB, and OT. If you pay attention to their tendencies, you will realize Pugh is very unlikely to get a mega deal with a lot of guaranteed money. Just not the way the Giants do business
Agreed. I like Pugh, but not sure he's going to last giving wear and tear to date
develop these kids like he did with Brian Waters, Casey Weigmann, Alex
Boone, etc.
I don't know Jay Bisnowaty I think has got the most potential but I just don't see it in the tape on Wheeler ,Dunker,jones as a matter of fact they look down right lousy to me but I think Bis is the real deal ! We will see
I am clearly not advocating making him the highest paid Guard in the land but please let me know what JAG you want to replace him with to save money.
This years Free agent olineman weren't worth it, poor draft for lineman in 2017...lets keep kicking this unit's restructuring down the road I guess for all the future GMs above...
^^^This. Let's jettison one of the few solid OL on an under performing unit so we can keep lamenting how bad the OL is.
Pay him as an average starter? I guess that's OK but look at the job Brett Jones did when he actually filled in for Pugh. Is the delta in play worth $7M+? You can find G's. I still think Flowers should be playing G and moving him there to replace Pugh in free agency next year is a very real possibility if his play doesn't improve.
Think this may turn out just like Hankins - we aren't interested at the dollars he 's able to get elsewhere.