I think JJ is a top 10 CB, perhaps top 5. DRC is still an elegant and elite athlete (although his potential for injury is worrisome with every tackle). Eli Apple appears to be the guy a franchise hopes for when drafting a CB early.
While that may be the best top 3 in the NFL I am concerned about an empty cupboard after that, especially at a position that seems to be injury prone, at least for NYG.
Deayon plays as hard as anyone, but doesn't seem to have NFL talent/size.
None of the UDFAs or other roster guys seem to evoke any confidence.
I hope Mykkele Thompson stays healthy enough to be groomed for that slot/3rd safety spot. Probably a long shot though.
Let's not panic over last years playoff loss. Fact is,our offense is just as responsible,and we have the horses now to put points on the board.
And without a good Free Safety they are liabilities...
And without a good Free Safety they are liabilities...
Who is the fourth CB on the Cowboys?
How many teams can even go 3 CBs deep with the talent NYG can?
Not many.
How many teams can even go 3 CBs deep with the talent NYG can?
Not many.
This.
We have two pro bowl corners and the best outside corner from last year's rookie class. It'd be nice to add another guy to compete with Hunter and Deayon for the fifth spot, but it's not a glaring weakness. It's not glaring at all.
Cowboys #4 cb is projected to be their 2nd round draft choice Cidobe Awuzie who can also play safety ala Byron Jones.
Cows cb's look something like this:
Orlando Scandrick
Nolan Carroll
Anthony Brown
Awuzie
Jourdan Lewis #3 draft pick probably a slot corner
Marquez White #7 draft pick
This was a cb rich draft where we neglected to draft into the strength of the draft. Now we will have to pay for a FA vet
But hey we have a qb that we took in third round who probably won't play for two years...
Cows cb's look something like this:
Orlando Scandrick
Nolan Carroll
Anthony Brown
Awuzie
Jourdan Lewis #3 draft pick probably a slot corner
Marquez White #7 draft pick
And the Cowboys #1 CB would probably be our dime CB. So they may not be the best example.
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are not really even serviceable options. Other teams (at least in the NFCE) seem like they can get away with their 4th guy. But our guys are clear cut targets.
And without a good Free Safety they are liabilities...
Who is the fourth CB on the Cowboys?
Anthony Brown played 4th for them last season and did a nice job.
We have two pro bowl corners and the best outside corner from last year's rookie class. It'd be nice to add another guy to compete with Hunter and Deayon for the fifth spot, but it's not a glaring weakness. It's not glaring at all.
oh yeah? wait until you see Hunter and Deayon get a fair amount of snaps at #4.
We need a guy...
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In comment 13464966 Jimmy Googs said:
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are not really even serviceable options. Other teams (at least in the NFCE) seem like they can get away with their 4th guy. But our guys are clear cut targets.
And without a good Free Safety they are liabilities...
Who is the fourth CB on the Cowboys?
Anthony Brown played 4th for them last season and did a nice job.
Brown was a starter, and that's my point. They don't have great depth. They picks three corners because they need to find another starting corner. Scandrick and Carroll aren't Jenkins and DRC. They aren't even Leon Hall.
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We have two pro bowl corners and the best outside corner from last year's rookie class. It'd be nice to add another guy to compete with Hunter and Deayon for the fifth spot, but it's not a glaring weakness. It's not glaring at all.
oh yeah? wait until you see Hunter and Deayon get a fair amount of snaps at #4.
We need a guy...
Do you know what a glaring weakness is?
And where did I imply we shouldn't add a vet to the group?
Yes, decent vets may be cut, but history has shown that a vet CB who is available is more likely to have value as an extra safety rather than CB.
Yes, there were CBs available in the 3rd that would have immediately been the favorite to be our 4th CB. That said, if Webb becomes our starter in 2-3 years, it was a genius pick. And if he's a good back-up - it was a good pick.
Also, our Free Safeties cannot play CB like other teams. Ours can barely play FS.
Therefore finding a 4th guy that is reliable is very important...
Not ideal - but no team has starting quality guys as their depth at every position.
That would have been the time to draft a developmental qb to groom behind Eli. Not this year
This year there were a plethora of quality cb's available with many taken in the third round.
The Cows are in the midst of rebuilding their secondary and did well imo in drafting into the strength of the draft. I think all their db choices were quality. I also liked their choice of S Xavier Woods who I think will play a lot for the Cows
Also, our Free Safeties cannot play CB like other teams. Ours can barely play FS.
Therefore finding a 4th guy that is reliable is very important...
Then, you're agreeing with my original point. My point was that the 4th CB isn't a "glaring weakness", i.e. an integral component to the team's success. Obviously, signing a vet like Leon Hall is probably in the cards since DRC's going down is now being pushed as the downfall to our D in the playoffs. But, it's not like we should be looking to pay someone significant coin to revamp our secondary.
And it's premature to say Darian Thompson can't play FS. The coaches seem to think he is a significant piece.
That would have been the time to draft a developmental qb to groom behind Eli. Not this year
This year there were a plethora of quality cb's available with many taken in the third round.
The Cows are in the midst of rebuilding their secondary and did well imo in drafting into the strength of the draft. I think all their db choices were quality. I also liked their choice of S Xavier Woods who I think will play a lot for the Cows
Who's to say we're guaranteed one of those great QBs? If they value Webb that highly, it'd be crazy not to take in the third.
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unless they are completely un-injurable, the 4th and 5th guy actually get snaps. And DRC can't play every game as we know, they have to manage him.
Also, our Free Safeties cannot play CB like other teams. Ours can barely play FS.
Therefore finding a 4th guy that is reliable is very important...
Then, you're agreeing with my original point. My point was that the 4th CB isn't a "glaring weakness", i.e. an integral component to the team's success. Obviously, signing a vet like Leon Hall is probably in the cards since DRC's going down is now being pushed as the downfall to our D in the playoffs. But, it's not like we should be looking to pay someone significant coin to revamp our secondary.
And it's premature to say Darian Thompson can't play FS. The coaches seem to think he is a significant piece.
No we don't agree. I think it is a weakness...we can debate glaring. Although I know we aren't stopping any good QB unless either the 4th CB (b/c DRC won't make it thru all games so to me the 3rd/4th CB are same) is reliable or the Free Safety game steps up. Our reserves are too easily picked on...
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In comment 13465071 Jimmy Googs said:
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unless they are completely un-injurable, the 4th and 5th guy actually get snaps. And DRC can't play every game as we know, they have to manage him.
Also, our Free Safeties cannot play CB like other teams. Ours can barely play FS.
Therefore finding a 4th guy that is reliable is very important...
Then, you're agreeing with my original point. My point was that the 4th CB isn't a "glaring weakness", i.e. an integral component to the team's success. Obviously, signing a vet like Leon Hall is probably in the cards since DRC's going down is now being pushed as the downfall to our D in the playoffs. But, it's not like we should be looking to pay someone significant coin to revamp our secondary.
And it's premature to say Darian Thompson can't play FS. The coaches seem to think he is a significant piece.
No we don't agree. I think it is a weakness...we can debate glaring. Although I know we aren't stopping any good QB unless either the 4th CB (b/c DRC won't make it thru all games so to me the 3rd/4th CB are same) is reliable or the Free Safety game steps up. Our reserves are too easily picked on...
You're just be obstinately disagreeable. It's actually strange how disagreeable you're being. But, whatever. Keep being the odd duck if it makes you happy.
Although, I will say, I disagree that DRC should be treated as invisible. That seems extremely pessimistic. He's missed 7 games in his career. He's missed three in his entire tenure here. But, whatever. You're probably going to spin this to be even more negative as well.
And without a good Free Safety they are liabilities...
I would make the case that the CBs low on our depth chart are only targets because of how good our top 3 are, and the reason is twofold: for one thing (and this is somewhat obvious), any 4th/5th/6th CB who comes onto the field for the Giants is going to be a pretty significant downgrade from the top 3, and will therefore be targeted by the opposing offense as the weak link - that's not likely to change no matter who is at the bottom of the CB depth chart for us.
The second reason, which is less obvious IMO, is that because our top 3 are as good as they are, our scheme allows them to basically do their thing without requiring much help - this is a major strength of the Giants' D, as it allows that help to be allocated to other areas. But when one of the top 3 are out, the talent drop-off is pretty significant, and that luxury of being able to cover without requiring much help is decreased, and there is a cascading effect throughout the defense - now the help that is required in the secondary isn't used where it was before, and the whole unit starts to get weaker by extension.
Obviously, that can be mitigated to some extent by having a good 4th CB, but unless that 4th CB is going to be close to the talent level of the top 3, the issue won't really go away (and it's not a great allocation of resources to have a 4th stud CB).
You are then looking at 2nd tier guys that are going to be available. Just how deep do you think the QB class is going to be next year? Also, would you be happy knowing that that 1st or 2nd round draft pick next year would still also be sitting for at least a year or 2?
This is much ado about nothing. The chances are very high that Reese is going to bring in a vet to compete for the 4th CB position. If one of the biggest problems on this team is the 4th CB spot, consider me a happy man.
And you might be right. And there's a chance you might be wrong. Yes, it's probably a lesser chance.
We picked the QB. Higher risk. Higher reward.
And we don't have to agree but can still debate things so ease up on the sensitivity...ok?
You are not getting a vet CB on the cheap to play 4th corner when they can get more money as a nickle or even starter. You are going to have to develop someone
This past draft was full of quality cb prospects.
I think we should have grabbed one and the third round was a good place for it.
I would not have had a problem with drafting Webb with a third round choice if we had the luxury of an extra third rounder to play with.
NE used to draft qb's in the third round all the time. But they almost always and had extra third rounder so that taking the developmental qb in lieu of a position player did not hurt them for the coming year.
I'd like to see JR start accumulating draft choices similar to the NE approach
You are not getting a vet CB on the cheap to play 4th corner when they can get more money as a nickle or even starter. You are going to have to develop someone
Thats exactly what we got Leon Hall for? He came on the cheap. Same for Sam Madison. RW Mcquarters. People dont want to pay these 30+ year old CB's starter money. There are always vets looking for jobs late in the offseason. It is no difference this year. Im sorry, but nobody is giving any of the guys that are still on this list big money.
Link - ( New Window )
This past draft was full of quality cb prospects.
I think we should have grabbed one and the third round was a good place for it.
I would not have had a problem with drafting Webb with a third round choice if we had the luxury of an extra third rounder to play with.
NE used to draft qb's in the third round all the time. But they almost always and had extra third rounder so that taking the developmental qb in lieu of a position player did not hurt them for the coming year.
I'd like to see JR start accumulating draft choices similar to the NE approach
The Giants did not need to draft a CB. They did not need to draft a true WR - Engram is a hybrid and fills a necessary position. They are deep at those positions. If Webb is who they thought he would be, then it was a good pick up. Eli type QBs come along once a decade and unless you are 2-14, you ain't getting one. The Giants will not be 2-14 for the foreseeable future.
Webb had a high grade by the Giants. Probably felt he could have been a late 1st or a true 2nd rounder. If he gets here one year early - great. A bird in hand is better than hoping something drops to you in 2018/19.
I see your point, I'm not dismissing totally out of hand. But Reese and McAdoo must have felt Webb was well worth a role of the dice. Remember, Eli is not the most accurate of passers and his touch on short passes is dicey at times. Webb's problem seems to be accuracy - he has a very strong arm. Eli is great on deep throws, Webb apparently isn't.
I think CB is the least of their worries, along with WR.
But then it will be too late and Webb will have been no help.
Maybe you remember Trevin Wade or Leon Hall flailing around last December or maybe you just blank that bad memory out but I believe history will repeat itself in negative fashion since JR did not take advantage of a trove of cb's available in the third round of the draft.
Quality cb's are hard to come by. We had to spend a first rounder on Apple and paid a King's ransom in FA $ to Jackrabbit and DRC because we failed to adequately draft cb's in the past.
We had an opportunity in the recent draft to really bolster our secondary in a db rich draft and we did not take advantage.
I just wish we had accumulated additional draft choices that might have allowed the front office to address our immediate need (dimeback) and also the luxury of gambling on a long term qb prospect.
But JR doesn't operate that way. Perhaps he should study how the Patriots run their draft and obtain their players ...
It is better to have fewer high quality players and more lesser quality players.
As far as December and injuries - the salary cap put an end to stockpiling players. In an ideal world, Eli would be 5 years younger and players wouldn't get hurt. But Eli is 36 and chances are he is gone in 3 years. You cannot wait until the last minute to draft a QB. Webb has an outside chance to make it. He needs to work on mechanics and learn to read and breakdown NFL defenses. He's a workaholic by rep as is Eli. They are hoping Eli can shape him (IMHO). The tools are there, but he needs time to refine. CBs can be found, and good (adequate) ones will be there after the 3rd pre-season game. It is far easier to find a #3 or #4 CB than a starting QB.
2000 - Tom Brady sixth round draft choice; first of two sixth rounders
2002 - Rohan Davey fourth rounder one of multiple
2005 - Matt Cassel seventh rounder one of multiple
2008 - Kevin O'Connell third rounder one of two
2011 - Ryan Mallett third rounder one of two
2016 - Jacoby Brissett third rounder one of two
Now I don't know how you define the word bogus but I think NE has a real method to their success and accumulating additional draft picks has allowed them to take some risks with regard to drafting qb's which has paid off for them as some would say bigly or big league.
I would have no problem with taking a risk with drafting Webb if we had in fact a second third round draft choice that mitigated the risk inherent in taking a qb
I know you can't address everything but Reese left money on the table by not adding to the Secondary from this past draft.
Need to be on top of some free agent leftovers to pitch in here...
I also figure that they're counting on one or more of the injured players from last year to stay healthy and contribute this year. I'm not saying that's a winning strategy...just trying to read the tea leaves.
One other thing...my guess is that they're counting on an improved pass-rush to mitigate whatever deficiencies they have in the Secondary. A healthy OV (and JPP), Okwara with a year under his belt, and the addition of Avery Moss could get that job done. We'll see.
i would of thought they take a CB in a deep draft at the position but hankins is the real culprit here if he resigns prior to the draft they use that 2nd round pick on OL,CB or RB or could still add tomlinson and then much stronger at DT i think they still need to add a vet there odrick or williams maybe of the FA CB mccourty is someone i hope they pick up or possibly resign hall for that slot/S backup role
dont want any part of flowers or revis,they are both in severe decline,revis especially seams to have fallen off a cliff even talking shift to safety but of the remaining free agent CB's verner or shields would bolster the depth both were one time starters
I understand the need for depth at CB, but I also remember a ferocious defense masking some weaknesses in our defensive secondary on previous SB runs. The other part of this argument is that we have to look at how well the CB's that were on the board when Webb was selected turn out. It's one thing to speculate that a better value was there, and another for players to actually prove it.
How much has he lost? 29 years old
That basically seals up the conversation. A 3rd rd rookie CB or a guy with severe concussion issues is the solution. No bias at all, right?