James Kratch (@JamesKratch)
5/9/17, 6:09 PM
There's a reason why Mark Herzlich is now No. 44: He is going to be used on offense this year, he says. Working both ways
Dan Duggan (@DDuggan21)
5/9/17, 6:09 PM
Why did Mark Herzlich switch to No. 44? He needed an eligible number. He's been working at tight end this offseason
He's an easy player to root for, but I don't know what it means if he makes it at TE. Let's think about the numbers at TE/FB.
The max number of roster spots we should allocate to those positions combined IMO is 5.
Considering Engram, Ellison, Adams, we will have a battle between Tye, Lacosse, Collin Thompson, Shane Smith, and Herz for that fifth spot, with possibly more vet options to be added (I hope).
Considering his versatility and value on ST, he should be good to compete for the fifth spot. I'd prefer we bring in a quality FB to compete right now though. Not sure how we can say all offseason that not having a FB on the roster hurt us all last year, then this year only have one undrafted free agent rookie on the roster for the position.
He's better on special teams than defense. If he's good enough on specials to justify his roster spot, I'm good with that.
However, when they already carry DeOssie, who was a linebacker but ended up being solely a long snapper, they can't have another player who can't play on O or D. So maybe Herzlich just isn't good enough to stick as a linebacker, even a last-string backup, and needs another position. If he's good enough to be a blocking TE, I'm good with that, too.
Herzelich is a bottom of the roster guy. He is a core special teamer playing almost 400 snaps. He also is in goal line packages on defense. As another mentioned he is the backup long snapper. If he can serve a role in goal line offense, you could see the value in keeping him around especially as he obviously seems to be a good locker room presence.
You can expect to carry 3 tight ends and maybe 4 (Tye/LaCosse) if they have a good camp and depending on other players. Suppose they max and carry 4. Engram should not be a stationary tight end option in goal line situations. It is debatable that Tye/LaCosse should either. IF Ellison lines up at fullback, we Adams and maybe someone like Hart/Fluker. Maybe Herzlich provides greater versatility than them (able to go out for an occasional pass) or maybe he just is the backup to Ellison/Adams. Again a backup at many spots could be valuable.
Another perspective although they said tight ends but I believe that the Packers used the inverted wishbone fairly regularly. What about a package of Adams at tight end, Marshall,Beckham or Engram split wide with Ellison and Herzlich as double full backs in the backfield for some short yardage plays.
That said, you would hope that some of their younger LB's like Williams or Skinner can displace him off the roster. Keeping 6 LB's being Cassilas, Robinson, Kennard, Goodson, Herzlich and Thomas could be very problematic next year as everyone but Goodson would be a free agent.
I'm one of the few on this post that sees his contribution but let's not overestimate his value. The guy is a core special teamer but had zero special teams tackles last year.
Looking at the roster, I would think there is room for either him or Thomas (if healthy and agrees to lower his salary). Thomas (when healthy) is a borderline starter. Herzlich should not see the field on defense. My thoughts are that Thomas is more valuable. I also think that Herzlich is a guy who if you cut, can pull him back later if injuries hit.
He gets a shirt for special teams. So, the more positions he can play, the better-equipped the team will be to survive an in-game or short-term injury. That's a good thing. Nobody expects him to compete with Ellison.
Whether Mark Herzlich is a good use of a roster spot - no matter how many positions he learns - is a separate question. But if you're going to use space on a jackknife, he might as well be a versatile one.
Plays specials and does a fine fine job. Rarely injured. Plays in goaline. Backup long snapper. I mean he's a versatile player some people just love to hate.
(Sir Bill hoards them), Mark Herzlich is about exactly the same height and weight as a few of our other TE's.
I would say that in addition to toughness and willingness, a quality for in line blocking would be balance.
For example, Flowers, seems so far to be afraid to just plaster DE's, possibly reluctant to commit to a hard forward movement in hitting a player for fear of having that momentum being used against you if you cannot quickly reverse it.
I am optimistic in any case about Herz as an inline run blocking TE just based on his being an ornery veteran player.
They should be looking for ways to replace him not keep him.
Herz can look at the roster just like we can and recognize that in order to keep his spot, he will need to demonstrate that he can do the job of several people. Right now, he fills two spots- backup LB and specials coverage guy. However, they just brought in a UDFA who can do the same job for cheaper.
Thus, he needs to add more to his resume. If it works for him, that helps the Giants. If it doesn't and Munson catches coaches eyes in camp, Herz will be looking for a new job.
and wanting the EE kid to be freed up from in line run blocking duties
-if outside zone runs become a staple, that is.
and Ellison having the right reputation for one side, as a run blocking TE that can be of use in outside zone runs, you want some competition for the other side.
so, Herz maybe competes with Adams for left TE in those sets, with Tye as FB, EE as HB/WR/TE and Lacosse (injured? or what?)
If EE and Tye are specialists, and if they want a regular two TE look, you need at least one additional player (3 in total, at least) to be able to justify having 2 as a regularly planned part of the playbook?
so, this may be about in line run blocking in outside zone, Herz vs Adams.
but Herzlich lost fluidity, speed, and athleticism from his battle with cancer. I can't see him getting any time at TE other than the preseason or if the Giants lose all their active TE's during a game.
you may not appreciate, or agree with, this approach, but you need a player or two who is a jack of all trades, master of none. you don't expect him to play a major role at TE, or LB, or LS, but he's active and available for spot duty at several areas. the alternative is to expand the roster (active or overall) and expand the cap, so that we have only masters at every position, including backups, and backup backups.
Whether he's the guy who you think should be that guy is another question entirely, but don't base your argument on him not being a master of any given trade. whoever is picked for the jack of all trades role will be a master of none.
I am fine with Herzlich playing the jack-of-all-trades guy
heavier and becomes a better in line blocker by season start as well.
Back to Herz, he seemed fairly nifty at times with regards to vs the run 'fill a gap' which may bode well for his toughness and willingness to slam people as a blocking TE.
the 53rd guy on the roster. As said before, he contributes in many ways. Backup LS to me is very important.
Teams don't carry a guy as a back-up long snapper. Herzlich is a very good ST player. But, he is at or very near the bottom of this roster, as he doesn't contribute anywhere else. We can't carry 3 QBs, 4 TEs plus a FB (even 3 plus a FB might be pushing it), plus a long snapper, plus Harris who is solely a return guy at this point, plus Herzlich and still expect to fill out the rest of the roster.
he's not going to make the team as a backup long snapper.
however, he might make the team as a backup long snapper, TE, LB, and ST player.
If he can be decent in one area (presumably ST), and then fill spot duty/emergency OK in several other areas, that makes him a viable option for the roster.
He probably doesn't knock a TE off the roster solely as a TE, but if he can come anywhere near the bottom TE, why would you keep the bottom TE when there's a guy who does several other duties?
versatility is what will keep him on the roster. that's where he will contribute 'somewhere else'. Maybe you hope and pray that he'll never be called upon to be that emergency guy, but you'll be hoping and praying that whoever fills that jack of all trades role will never be called upon. Or maybe he won't be good enough/versatile enough to make it. Maybe the bottom TE ( or any other backup that H is looking to fill in for) will prove to be more versatile and good enough at any given area and knock him off the roster. time will tell.
He's a quality guy, great STer and he works his ass off. Those are the guys you win with
Sure, but they also have to be talented football players at the pro level. He's just not.
He knows, as does the Giants front office, that the moment he is cut from this roster - his NFL career is over. They are attempting to extend his career as long as they can.
5/9/17, 6:09 PM
Why did Mark Herzlich switch to No. 44? He needed an eligible number. He's been working at tight end this offseason
Why did Mark Herzlich switch to No. 44? He needed an eligible number. He's been working at tight end this offseason.
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Huh. And was hoping he could play linebacker.
The max number of roster spots we should allocate to those positions combined IMO is 5.
Considering Engram, Ellison, Adams, we will have a battle between Tye, Lacosse, Collin Thompson, Shane Smith, and Herz for that fifth spot, with possibly more vet options to be added (I hope).
Considering his versatility and value on ST, he should be good to compete for the fifth spot. I'd prefer we bring in a quality FB to compete right now though. Not sure how we can say all offseason that not having a FB on the roster hurt us all last year, then this year only have one undrafted free agent rookie on the roster for the position.
However, when they already carry DeOssie, who was a linebacker but ended up being solely a long snapper, they can't have another player who can't play on O or D. So maybe Herzlich just isn't good enough to stick as a linebacker, even a last-string backup, and needs another position. If he's good enough to be a blocking TE, I'm good with that, too.
Can he play fullback?
If Herzlich wants to truly be valuable to the roster he should become a long snapper so we have a backup...
Herzlich is a big dude and is pretty powerful.
If Herzlich wants to truly be valuable to the roster he should become a long snapper so we have a backup...
He has practiced long snapping. Pretty sure he's the current backup if DeOssie goes down.
I don't see why a lot of people are dogging him for learning new roles. You want guys to be doing this.
Doesn't need to report with #44
So Eli can run a naked bootleg.
You can expect to carry 3 tight ends and maybe 4 (Tye/LaCosse) if they have a good camp and depending on other players. Suppose they max and carry 4. Engram should not be a stationary tight end option in goal line situations. It is debatable that Tye/LaCosse should either. IF Ellison lines up at fullback, we Adams and maybe someone like Hart/Fluker. Maybe Herzlich provides greater versatility than them (able to go out for an occasional pass) or maybe he just is the backup to Ellison/Adams. Again a backup at many spots could be valuable.
Another perspective although they said tight ends but I believe that the Packers used the inverted wishbone fairly regularly. What about a package of Adams at tight end, Marshall,Beckham or Engram split wide with Ellison and Herzlich as double full backs in the backfield for some short yardage plays.
That said, you would hope that some of their younger LB's like Williams or Skinner can displace him off the roster. Keeping 6 LB's being Cassilas, Robinson, Kennard, Goodson, Herzlich and Thomas could be very problematic next year as everyone but Goodson would be a free agent.
Looking at the roster, I would think there is room for either him or Thomas (if healthy and agrees to lower his salary). Thomas (when healthy) is a borderline starter. Herzlich should not see the field on defense. My thoughts are that Thomas is more valuable. I also think that Herzlich is a guy who if you cut, can pull him back later if injuries hit.
Rumors of private /cough involvement with the Mara clan must be true.
Whether Mark Herzlich is a good use of a roster spot - no matter how many positions he learns - is a separate question. But if you're going to use space on a jackknife, he might as well be a versatile one.
Herzlich.
I would say that in addition to toughness and willingness, a quality for in line blocking would be balance.
For example, Flowers, seems so far to be afraid to just plaster DE's, possibly reluctant to commit to a hard forward movement in hitting a player for fear of having that momentum being used against you if you cannot quickly reverse it.
I am optimistic in any case about Herz as an inline run blocking TE just based on his being an ornery veteran player.
Thus, he needs to add more to his resume. If it works for him, that helps the Giants. If it doesn't and Munson catches coaches eyes in camp, Herz will be looking for a new job.
-if outside zone runs become a staple, that is.
and Ellison having the right reputation for one side, as a run blocking TE that can be of use in outside zone runs, you want some competition for the other side.
so, Herz maybe competes with Adams for left TE in those sets, with Tye as FB, EE as HB/WR/TE and Lacosse (injured? or what?)
If EE and Tye are specialists, and if they want a regular two TE look, you need at least one additional player (3 in total, at least) to be able to justify having 2 as a regularly planned part of the playbook?
so, this may be about in line run blocking in outside zone, Herz vs Adams.
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has played TE before, so not sure why the sudden need to change his jersey number to do so.
Doesn't need to report with #44
thanks
or (Adams, Ellison and EE) giving Tye enough additional practice reps to see if, in fact he can, or cannot, play HB/FB as his shape would suggest.
most posters: get a grip.
you may not appreciate, or agree with, this approach, but you need a player or two who is a jack of all trades, master of none. you don't expect him to play a major role at TE, or LB, or LS, but he's active and available for spot duty at several areas. the alternative is to expand the roster (active or overall) and expand the cap, so that we have only masters at every position, including backups, and backup backups.
Whether he's the guy who you think should be that guy is another question entirely, but don't base your argument on him not being a master of any given trade. whoever is picked for the jack of all trades role will be a master of none.
Back to Herz, he seemed fairly nifty at times with regards to vs the run 'fill a gap' which may bode well for his toughness and willingness to slam people as a blocking TE.
anything above that would be over-the-transom
He's a quality guy, great STer and he works his ass off. Those are the guys you win with
however, he might make the team as a backup long snapper, TE, LB, and ST player.
If he can be decent in one area (presumably ST), and then fill spot duty/emergency OK in several other areas, that makes him a viable option for the roster.
He probably doesn't knock a TE off the roster solely as a TE, but if he can come anywhere near the bottom TE, why would you keep the bottom TE when there's a guy who does several other duties?
versatility is what will keep him on the roster. that's where he will contribute 'somewhere else'. Maybe you hope and pray that he'll never be called upon to be that emergency guy, but you'll be hoping and praying that whoever fills that jack of all trades role will never be called upon. Or maybe he won't be good enough/versatile enough to make it. Maybe the bottom TE ( or any other backup that H is looking to fill in for) will prove to be more versatile and good enough at any given area and knock him off the roster. time will tell.
Quote:
being on the roster.
He's a quality guy, great STer and he works his ass off. Those are the guys you win with
Sure, but they also have to be talented football players at the pro level. He's just not.
He knows, as does the Giants front office, that the moment he is cut from this roster - his NFL career is over. They are attempting to extend his career as long as they can.