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| Lynch is fairly stilted when he talks trade, compared to the smooth and experienced veteran Marathe. With the Giants about to pick at 23, he calls New York GM Jerry Reese. “Jerry,” Lynch says, “would you be amenable …” Amenable. Now there’s a Stanford word for you. “… to trade your pick here, 23, for 34, 111 and 143?” Reese must have said no. “All right,” Lynch says. “What would move the needle?” Tight end Evan Engram goes to the Giants. |
23 = 760 points
34 = 560
111 = 72
143 = 34.5
___________
666.5 points
And there was a thread pre-draft that showed, generally teams have to overpay in order to move up in the first.
Reese would be a dope to take this.
I would have come back with "your 1st and 2nd this year and next year for #23" just to be just as stupid right back at him.
We all wish Reese would have been offered that. The 49ers pick next year will likely be top 5 possibly even 1st overall. Imagine having a shot at Allen or Darnold plus your own first rounder.
I would have come back with "your 1st and 2nd this year and next year for #23" just to be just as stupid right back at him.
Well, that would be stupid since he didn't have a first this year to trade at the time of our pick. : )
23 = 760 points
34 = 560
111 = 72
143 = 34.5
___________
666.5 points
And there was a thread pre-draft that showed, generally teams have to overpay in order to move up in the first.
Reese would be a dope to take this.
The Jimmy Johnson 1994 trade value chart that you and others reference is an outdated model that isn't used.
Now that draft picks are slotted in terms of salary and the 5th year option added, the entire dynamic of draft pick value has changed.
Don't be the fool who cites this every year.
This. Lynch must have felt full of himself after he fleeced that moron in Chicago.
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a 2nd and 2 4ths for a 1st...?
This. Lynch must have felt full of himself after he fleeced that moron in Chicago.
If I were Reese, I'd have told him "listen ROOKIE, I know John Lynch the safety, I don't know much about John Lynch the GM, but I'm the GM that helped bring my organization 2 Lombardi Trophies, you really think you can fleece me like that, kid?"
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It was a major low ball offer. For someone who doesn't like giving up picks, Reese must have been insulted by the offer, and Lynch must have been half-hearted, stupid, or insanely optimistic if he really expected to move up that far.
23 = 760 points
34 = 560
111 = 72
143 = 34.5
___________
666.5 points
And there was a thread pre-draft that showed, generally teams have to overpay in order to move up in the first.
Reese would be a dope to take this.
The Jimmy Johnson 1994 trade value chart that you and others reference is an outdated model that isn't used.
Now that draft picks are slotted in terms of salary and the 5th year option added, the entire dynamic of draft pick value has changed.
Don't be the fool who cites this every year.
You call him a fool for that? Jesus you're insufferable.
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In comment 13469353 section125 said:
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a 2nd and 2 4ths for a 1st...?
This. Lynch must have felt full of himself after he fleeced that moron in Chicago.
If I were Reese, I'd have told him "listen ROOKIE, I know John Lynch the safety, I don't know much about John Lynch the GM, but I'm the GM that helped bring my organization 2 Lombardi Trophies, you really think you can fleece me like that, kid?"
Better to play possum. Always listen. Always be polite. Always be in control. Otherwise you'll put people off and miss opportunity.
Reese is inept. What has he done? Fire this clown.
then
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It was a major low ball offer. For someone who doesn't like giving up picks, Reese must have been insulted by the offer, and Lynch must have been half-hearted, stupid, or insanely optimistic if he really expected to move up that far.
23 = 760 points
34 = 560
111 = 72
143 = 34.5
___________
666.5 points
And there was a thread pre-draft that showed, generally teams have to overpay in order to move up in the first.
Reese would be a dope to take this.
The Jimmy Johnson 1994 trade value chart that you and others reference is an outdated model that isn't used.
Now that draft picks are slotted in terms of salary and the 5th year option added, the entire dynamic of draft pick value has changed.
Don't be the fool who cites this every year.
Do you have anything showing that they don't use the Chart anymore?
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In comment 13469321 adamg said:
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It was a major low ball offer. For someone who doesn't like giving up picks, Reese must have been insulted by the offer, and Lynch must have been half-hearted, stupid, or insanely optimistic if he really expected to move up that far.
23 = 760 points
34 = 560
111 = 72
143 = 34.5
___________
666.5 points
And there was a thread pre-draft that showed, generally teams have to overpay in order to move up in the first.
Reese would be a dope to take this.
The Jimmy Johnson 1994 trade value chart that you and others reference is an outdated model that isn't used.
Now that draft picks are slotted in terms of salary and the 5th year option added, the entire dynamic of draft pick value has changed.
Don't be the fool who cites this every year.
You call him a fool for that? Jesus you're insufferable.
Apparently there seem to be multiple camps on BBI. One camp is that your should disparage and be totally disagreeable as frequently and as often as possible. "It's a debate forum."
I suppose conversation and edification is beyond the scope of this school of BBI users.
Glad your not a GM. That's a horrible move
23 = 760 points
34 = 560
111 = 72
143 = 34.5
___________
666.5 points
And there was a thread pre-draft that showed, generally teams have to overpay in order to move up in the first.
Reese would be a dope to take this.
I wish you guys would stop using that point chart its not realistic and almost never truly adds up when you look at the actual trades that happen
Brilliant take on this, Jeff. On a thread discussing a rumored trade down that clearly wasn't worth it, no less.
I don't have a clue as to what SF wanted at 23, but we do know ATL wanted Engram. He would not have been there at #34.
JonC maybe you have an inkling as to who Jerry really wanted (Bolles or Howard?), but it appears the Engram was their man. Maybe, just maybe #34, 66 and 104 would have done it. But I think McAdoo wanted someone to stretch the middle of the field more than a tackle, CB and RB...
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a 2nd and 2 4ths for a 1st...?
This. Lynch must have felt full of himself after he fleeced that moron in Chicago.
exactly
One of those guys would have been there at 34? How do, given both were gone by that time?
No they wouldn't have been. Engram would have been taken by Atlanta, Pittsburgh, or New Orleans. Cleveland probably takes Njoku if he is there at 33 (considering they traded up above Pittsburgh for him after Engram was selected).
Assuming, arguendo, that that was true, there were other teams with TE needs that really liked a player like Engram and we know Cleveland liked Njoku so much that they traded up into Round 1 to assure that they got him
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"What's a trade down"?
Brilliant take on this, Jeff. On a thread discussing a rumored trade down that clearly wasn't worth it, no less.
Lighten up.
This is my favorite part of the post-draft, where people speak directly out of their ass authoritatively to make it sound like they know what they're talking about.
So in spite of the fact that rumors had Atlanta highly interested in Engram, and that both were gone by the end of the first round, you continue to insist that one of the two would be available at 34.
That's brilliant.
Don't get so excited...
JonC already said that they weren't interested in Njuko. If they wanted CBs they would have drafted one with the picks they had.
Believe it was already reported ATL wanted Engram. McKinley may have been a similarly rated player - wanted either/or type situation.
But it is all speculation.
Don't get so excited...
So you're the Atlanta GM? How do you know this for a fact?
Also, I said I would have grabbed some secondary players with the extra picks...not saying Reese wanted to.
The only facts in those two posts just make your original post look silly. Assuming one would be there at 34, when neither made it that far, makes no sense.
Atlanta was all-in on getting an edge-rusher...
So no, trading back to 34 most likely means we lose out on Engram and Njoku (if we even wanted him). Engram was the best playmaker on the board IMO and we took him. Why sacrifice that for a pretty pathetic haul of extra picks?
Atlanta was all-in on getting an edge-rusher...
Yeah, AFTER Engram was off the board. Plenty of rumors regarding Atlanta wanting Engram as well. You know its possible to covet more than 1 player, right?
That's why it's so stupid when people bitch about not trading up or down.
Because you say so? This is all just our opinions but yours seem to be the most implausible.
So that's 4 teams with ties to a TE between 23-34 that we know of which doesn't account for teams that may have had interest that weren't talked about.
So that's 4 teams with ties to a TE between 23-34 that we know of which doesn't account for teams that may have had interest that weren't talked about.
"ties to a TE"...you got to be kidding, right?
this was to fkap
I believe the Saints were the ones rumored to have wanted Engram right? Also, if you want Engram, you take him at #23. For all you know, there could be another team not even mentioned that would have moved up to 31 or somewhere in that range for Engram. That deal rumored by SF is terrible and I'm glad Engram is in Blue.
Agree...if Giants had such a hard on for Engram and no confidence to wait then pick him. But its still clearly plausible they could have.
It makes me wonder if Engram is gone at 25 to Cleveland. I'm guessing we'll never know their board but if that happens it shakes up what happens, further muddying the waters of what to predict is there at 34.
I like Engram over him as well.
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Engram for me is such a better get. We shall see, but I really think Njoku is not a natural football player and will struggle with dropping passes and route running at least to start. Again, could be wrong, but just the raw talent I saw compared to Engram who was much smoother faster and caught almost everything. Engram over Njoku all day.
It makes me wonder if Engram is gone at 25 to Cleveland. I'm guessing we'll never know their board but if that happens it shakes up what happens, further muddying the waters of what to predict is there at 34.
Yea me too or even a trade up from the Saints before or at that pick. I thought it was somewhere on BBI I read they wanted to pull the trigger if the Giants didn't take him and that's why the Giants ultimately would not have traded back. We'll never really know the truth.
Njoku is another story, maybe 50/50 shot because I think many teams are put off by not being NFL ready. He probably still goes in the 1st based on talent alone along with a number of teams wanting to bolster TE, but I don't think he was as coveted as Engram.
but of course only predictions, like all the other comments above...
but of course only predictions, like all the other comments above...
That's because draft pundits grades TE's based on their combo ability to block and catch and Howard was seen as the most "complete". What they rarely take into account is how X player will be utilized on a specific team.
So the predictions don't mean much. Outside of the top 5-10 players they are usually always way off on who gets taken.
You know who should be fired? Marathe.
Njoku is another story, maybe 50/50 shot because I think many teams are put off by not being NFL ready. He probably still goes in the 1st based on talent alone along with a number of teams wanting to bolster TE, but I don't think he was as coveted as Engram.
Agree with all of this. It seemed for the most part, it was the other way around before the draft (teams thought Njoku > Engram). They probably figured in the late 1st there would be multiple teams deciding between the two and maybe set a bunch of smoke screens? Either way Engram was not making it out the 1st nevermind to 34.
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They must have been of the belief he'd be gone if they didn't pick him at #23. I don't an issue picking the prospect you feel strongly about, rather than get too cute and potentially overthink it.
I don't have a clue as to what SF wanted at 23, but we do know ATL wanted Engram. He would not have been there at #34.
JonC maybe you have an inkling as to who Jerry really wanted (Bolles or Howard?), but it appears the Engram was their man. Maybe, just maybe #34, 66 and 104 would have done it. But I think McAdoo wanted someone to stretch the middle of the field more than a tackle, CB and RB...
I don't know what their board looked like, but was told Mahomes was way up there as was Engram when mocks were being staged, and that there was no OL of interest at all. Didn't hear Njoku at all either.
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yeah, the Saints have been trying to fill the Graham void ever since making that trade. No idea if they trade up, but its certainly possible. All signs point to many teams wanting Engram in the last 8-10 picks of the first round. I'd go so far as to say there's probably a 1% chance he lasts until round 2.
Njoku is another story, maybe 50/50 shot because I think many teams are put off by not being NFL ready. He probably still goes in the 1st based on talent alone along with a number of teams wanting to bolster TE, but I don't think he was as coveted as Engram.
Agree with all of this. It seemed for the most part, it was the other way around before the draft (teams thought Njoku > Engram). They probably figured in the late 1st there would be multiple teams deciding between the two and maybe set a bunch of smoke screens? Either way Engram was not making it out the 1st nevermind to 34.
He sure could have.
they still could have taken shaheen with one of the 2nd round picks,garcia with the other and biz with the extra 5th that would have freed up thier 6th and removed the need to trade thier 7th for another OG and CB there is value to that scenario but i think engram could be a special player and open that offence up far more
Very likely other players on the Giant's board were down a good tear or so from Engram including Njoku. Else, Reese would have countered.
Are you sure the Giants really wanted Floyd or Conklin?
Jimmy Googs : 9:05 am : link : reply
move up from time to time when they get a hard-on for a particular player. But his preference is to pick the best player for them when they are on the clock.
the value of the stockpile has to be there. It's easy for you to claim player X (aka, the best player) would be there ten spots down. The Giants obviously didn't agree. don't give up draft value just to stockpile. Giants were offered a meh, at best, deal. No reason to take it, when you have a player you want on the table and you think there might not be as good a player on the board 10 spots down.
Wake me up when there's a report of Reese turning down an obviously good deal.
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unless their targets were all gone. I was given Engram's name just shy of 2pm on draft day, he was clearly one on the shortlist they thought would be available. He wasn't a situation like Prince where NYG was shocked he fell to them, or like last year where two teams traded up in front of them.
Are you sure the Giants really wanted Floyd or Conklin?
Seems so, I was told Mara wanted Conklin and the rest wanted Floyd. Given there was some chatter of admitting they needed to tighten up the ship during this year's scouting season, it at least jives logically.
Jimmy Googs : 9:05 am : link : reply
move up from time to time when they get a hard-on for a particular player. But his preference is to pick the best player for them when they are on the clock.
the value of the stockpile has to be there. It's easy for you to claim player X (aka, the best player) would be there ten spots down. The Giants obviously didn't agree. don't give up draft value just to stockpile. Giants were offered a meh, at best, deal. No reason to take it, when you have a player you want on the table and you think there might not be as good a player on the board 10 spots down.
Wake me up when there's a report of Reese turning down an obviously good deal.
Everything has some risk. But Reese very well may have turned down value, especially if Engram would have been there later. Fact is he was a borderline first round player on almost any publicized-board put out there. Obviously NFL teams have their own boards which are not public and Giants had him higher. But its plausible others didn't.
I don't dislike the pick as Engram fits the bill on many things we needed for certain for the offense and at that position. I thought we needed to come out of this draft with an athletic TE and athletic LB, so we got one.
BBI beats you over the head with how often 3rd rounders don't pan out yet now its good value to get one in a trade back, likely losing out on the top player on your board in the process?
I also don't know why you are beating this "Engram could have still been there" drum. How many more teams need to be linked to him?
Not beating a drum as that is the point of this thread. Reese turned down this deal, and I am adding a view. Just because you don't agree doesn't make it implausible.
Why are you adamant on this linkage point that multiple teams behind us were clamoring for Engram...where is all that documented?
Reports from Giant war room was they loved both OJ Howard and Bolles if made it to #23. They didn't. There was also good support for Davis, Harris and Engram. Engram was the only one left when it was their turn, and Reese doesn't trade down, so he was the pick. Nothing more than that...
Not beating a drum as that is the point of this thread. Reese turned down this deal, and I am adding a view. Just because you don't agree doesn't make it implausible.
Why are you adamant on this linkage point that multiple teams behind us were clamoring for Engram...where is all that documented?
No, I don't think we should throw a 3rd rounder away, let me know where I said that. But getting one back in a deal to draft 10 spots lower simply isn't good value which is what we were/are discussing. That isn't value at all. It was a hail mary offer that our GM didn't take seriously, nor should he have.
As for Engram, you can go dig through the BBI archives for the posts about Atlanta and New Orleans being tied to Engram. You seem to be quoting pundit draft boards which means next to nothing compared to actual interest from teams looking to move up in the draft.
There is almost no evidence to support Engram would last to us at 34. I will concede that there is a small likelihood of it happening because I don't want to talk in absolutes, but that chance seems incredibly small. You also read earlier today that JonC didn't hear a peep on Njoku so it very well could have been Engram or nothing when it came to us taking a TE high.
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so presumably, Jerry either said "nothing" or made a counter-offer which SF found unpalatable. It's only a big deal if Engram turns out to be a flop.
Reports from Giant war room was they loved both OJ Howard and Bolles if made it to #23. They didn't. There was also good support for Davis, Harris and Engram. Engram was the only one left when it was their turn, and Reese doesn't trade down, so he was the pick. Nothing more than that...
What reports?
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so presumably, Jerry either said "nothing" or made a counter-offer which SF found unpalatable. It's only a big deal if Engram turns out to be a flop.
Reports from Giant war room was they loved both OJ Howard and Bolles if made it to #23. They didn't. There was also good support for Davis, Harris and Engram. Engram was the only one left when it was their turn, and Reese doesn't trade down, so he was the pick. Nothing more than that...
Unless you don't want to believe JonC who's right way more than he is wrong, he was told about Engram 5 hours before the draft started, sooo....
I know we were 3 picks higher than that, and I understand the point chart which may or may not still be indicative - but for whatever reason I got the sense from that article the 49ers were calling everyone to move up that night, but were not willing to make fair market offers... so at the end of the day, kind of a nuisance thing to do, and a rookie/immature thing to do, to other teams.
Glad to read Reese moved on quickly.
Not disputing Giants may have not wanted Njoku, but that is at #23. Later could have been different view.
Its okay for you to really like the Engram pick at #23. But why does it blind you that he could have gone later?
And a 3rd rounder isn't crappy. Trading out of the first round and only getting a 3rd rounder as our awesome prize is worse than crappy its pathetic. The offer wasn't good whether you are using the value chart or the common sense chart. You don't lose out on a guy who you think can change your offense just to pick up an extra 3rd, a 3rd that wasn't even in the top of the round.
The value sucked, I don't know what else to tell you.
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In comment 13470085 HomerJones45 said:
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so presumably, Jerry either said "nothing" or made a counter-offer which SF found unpalatable. It's only a big deal if Engram turns out to be a flop.
Reports from Giant war room was they loved both OJ Howard and Bolles if made it to #23. They didn't. There was also good support for Davis, Harris and Engram. Engram was the only one left when it was their turn, and Reese doesn't trade down, so he was the pick. Nothing more than that...
Unless you don't want to believe JonC who's right way more than he is wrong, he was told about Engram 5 hours before the draft started, sooo....
I am not disputing what jon reported. I think he said he was told Engram was (one) of the targets. Please don't suggest the Giants had one guy on their board...
And a 3rd rounder isn't crappy. Trading out of the first round and only getting a 3rd rounder as our awesome prize is worse than crappy its pathetic. The offer wasn't good whether you are using the value chart or the common sense chart. You don't lose out on a guy who you think can change your offense just to pick up an extra 3rd, a 3rd that wasn't even in the top of the round.
The value sucked, I don't know what else to tell you.
What evidence?...i missed that in your posts I guess
Also go back to the OP. You are not even quoting the deal terms correctly.
Again, i'm not sure what you want here. You seem to think that there's a way to squeeze a value argument out of trading back and getting the pathetic haul we were offered. If you feel that strongly about it go nuts. My only issue is the repeated posts about Engram still being there when all signs say otherwise. There's almost no evidence to suggest this.
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I just think the evidence suggests you are way off thinking he's there at 34.
And a 3rd rounder isn't crappy. Trading out of the first round and only getting a 3rd rounder as our awesome prize is worse than crappy its pathetic. The offer wasn't good whether you are using the value chart or the common sense chart. You don't lose out on a guy who you think can change your offense just to pick up an extra 3rd, a 3rd that wasn't even in the top of the round.
The value sucked, I don't know what else to tell you.
What evidence?...i missed that in your posts I guess
Also go back to the OP. You are not even quoting the deal terms correctly.
You are right, the deal in the OP is even worse than the one I misquoted.
Atlanta, just like the Giants, probably had several on their short list too. You better at the end of the first round. They absolutely made their deal for an edge rusher so their short list had a favorite.
I killed enough time for today on this one. Go Engram.
I killed enough time for today on this one. Go Engram.
I can't tell you how shocked I am at your reply...
Reese & Co. made their decision, and yes we locked up a really good TE. But not a massive stretch at all to think he might have been there later, or that we could have had a different and potentially better value play.
Its not ripping him or the organization to suggest that so maybe think a little bit beyond your big blue-colored glasses every now and then...
I can disagree with you without having a Giants bias just like I don't think you disagreeing with me means you are anti Reese. I see absolutely no value in giving up a better player for middling extra picks. Again, that's not specific to the Giants.
Lynch got his offered turned down by multiple teams, clearly that package of pathetic picks to move up in the first wasn't highly thought of.
My example is this draft where many (including me) thought there were really only about 10 guys or so that were "first-round worthy" but a shit-load of "second round talent" guys. So to me stock-piling a bunch of picks in rounds 2-4 may have been a really good idea to really bolster a roster.
I still think Engram could have been had later, and am really hoping he is a stud...
i think i would have made that deal, gone after an OL, (robinson) and grabbed a diff TE. Oh well, draft is over and we have who we have. engran will expand the offense. Lets go Blue.
I can see TE Engram taking on more and more of a role as the season progresses and he learns this NFL offense. He likely needs an off-season to add a few pounds of muscle and develop blocking technique but this year he'll add deep middle of the field speed & quickness. He can really move and Eli will LOVE him.