I figured since neither are game 7s, pj's old thread wasn't fair to the new series about to start in each conference. Also lets us start fresh and not have to sort through some of the dreck from the other thread.
Let's keep our own teams and offseason thoughts out of this - there's already a NYR thread for that, and I'll refrain from Isles chatter here as well. But the IIHF tourney is also fair game to discuss on this thread since it overlaps with this round.
Preds-Ducks drop the puck tonight at 9pm in Anaheim; Sens-Pens tomorrow at 7pm in Yinzburgh.
Head says ANA-PIT final. Heart wants NSH-OTT final. Who ya got?
We can laugh about the 1997 ECF, anything after that is just offensive.
People think that Lundqvist gets hung out to dry by his defense? It's nothing compared to what Richter faced in the last 5 years or so of his career. His career numbers don't reflect how good he truly was as a result. He was a bit streaky, but when he was really on there was no one short of Hasek who I'd rather have.
Please tell me what advanced stat makes Cujo a HOF goalie? I assume it's some analytic or advanced stats because he has no vezinas, no rings, no leading the league in GAA, once leading the league in save %, never led the league in wins.
The goalies of that era in the HOF so far are Belfour, Roy, and Hasek. If there was a hall of good he might get in, but he's nowhere near those three.
The lack of Vezina doesn't bother me - Lundqvist would still be a HOFer even if he didn't win one.
The lack of Vezina doesn't bother me - Lundqvist would still be a HOFer even if he didn't win one.
HOF is subjective obviously, but in order to get in to the HOF IMO, you need really three things: stats, accolades (Vezina, AS, etc.), and achievements (rings)
if you're missing one of the three the other two need to be off the charts, if you're missing two, that remaining one has to be so far beyond everyone else you're a no-brainer.
CuJo is missing two of the three.
Hank has two of the three.
Belfour has two vezinas, rookie of the year, multiple jennings awards and a cup.
like I said CuJo has one of three HOF components (Stats), Belfour has all three. Not to mention Belfour led the NHL in GAA multiple times and save % multiple times as well as shutouts.
Matt Cullen, "the new mr game 7 now that Justin Williams lost?" 6 - 0 in game 7's.
You're not wrong, the numbers are what they are.
I think Pitt has a dismal record in game 7's after losing game 6, or some other obscure stat I will cling to for the next 30 hours.
Still has wheels too and decent on the dots and PK
I think Pitt has a dismal record in game 7's after losing game 6, or some other obscure stat I will cling to for the next 30 hours.
Cullen is 6 - 0 after the Caps series.
Hagelin is 8 - 1, but he's lost (with the Rangers I believe), so no streak to break, just a good record.
the Pens lost game 6 to the Caps and then won, but I agree they didn't have a good track record of it before that game.
Nothing better than game 7's.
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Belfour and Joseph have identical career save%, and Belfour played for better teams.
Belfour has two vezinas, rookie of the year, multiple jennings awards and a cup.
like I said CuJo has one of three HOF components (Stats), Belfour has all three. Not to mention Belfour led the NHL in GAA multiple times and save % multiple times as well as shutouts.
Who's the 'floor' goalie for the HOF for you? Belfour is better than CuJo. Does Grant Fuhr to be in over Joseph? (That's not a rhetorical question, I'm curious).
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In comment 13480755 Greg from LI said:
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Belfour and Joseph have identical career save%, and Belfour played for better teams.
Belfour has two vezinas, rookie of the year, multiple jennings awards and a cup.
like I said CuJo has one of three HOF components (Stats), Belfour has all three. Not to mention Belfour led the NHL in GAA multiple times and save % multiple times as well as shutouts.
Who's the 'floor' goalie for the HOF for you? Belfour is better than CuJo. Does Grant Fuhr to be in over Joseph? (That's not a rhetorical question, I'm curious).
Not sure, I've never thought of it in those terms, but I'm generally conservative in terms of HOF in all sports and feel it should be truly the legendary goalies.
I do believe in the three pillars like I mentioned before of stats, accolades and achievements.
Someone like Fuhr, he has 4 cups but he played with Gretzky, Messier, Coffey, Kurri, Tikanen, etc. so he'd need other pillars - so he has a Vezina and counting stats that while don't put him in elite company, put him in good enough company given the other two.
I think CuJo eventually gets in, but I wouldn't vote for him. I don't think he was ever the best goalie of his era and not even really top 3.
I think Osgood is probably as good and shouldn't get in either. And Osgood has 3 cups. Osgood's 35 year old playoffs are a "moment" that CuJo has never had, at least not over a full playoffs.
Anybody that's seen more of Minnesota than me have an opinion on Dumba?
Link - ( New Window )
Eli (different sport) wouldn't get in without the rings (in my book). But he has them so he should IMO. So there are exceptions. But I don't hold it against Joseph to the degree you seem to.
Eli (different sport) wouldn't get in without the rings (in my book). But he has them so he should IMO. So there are exceptions. But I don't hold it against Joseph to the degree you seem to.
Like I said, I wouldn't hold it against him if he had a Vezina or two, even a Jennings or two, but nada and this is just my opinion, but for me if you don't have championships, you need to be that much better in the other criteria.
He seems like the prototypical good or very good, but not great goalie.
football equivalent of Vinny Testaverde (top 15 passing yards and passing TD's all time), never an all-pro (pro bowl is sort of a joke but 2x pro-bowler) and ringless. Is Vinny Testaverde a hall of famer? No one with more yard or TD's than him that is eligible is not in the HOF.
Because game 7's are where heroes are made. It's what every athlete in any sport grows up envisioning in their driveways on the ice, on the field, in their dreams. Being the hero. Who will it be?
And forget about OT, game 7 OT game winners are where legends are made. There have only been two game 7 OT's in the SC finals, not sure about how many conference finals, but I suspect it's not a ton.
It's like Christmas Eve all day until puck drop.
TEMPTING FATE? Boucher says #Sens have to win exactly same way as Game 6, numbers say that will be tough task: http://www.tsn.ca/senators-seek-repeat-performance-in-game-7-1.760811 #TSN
Meanwhile, none of Ottawas players finished above 50 percent, with Ryan and Kyle Turris finishing with a matching 28.57 percent. Using Corsi to examine individual games can be an inexact science, but in this case, its evident that the Penguins had their way with the Senators as much as any team can....
Plus the Senators gave up 45 shots in a regulation game. that's a lot of shots relying on a goalie who has been inconsistent these playoffs.
Basically, Boucher's strategy is to have his goalie stand on his head? I hope the game is close, but man, Anderson robbed Crosby on at least two goals I rarely see Crosby miss, I wouldn't give the Senators high odds if that's really the game plan.
Agree, surprised that was overturned, and it took a 5 - 3 for them to get the tying goal, but that's hockey.
unrelated, but consider this is the 19th playoff game for both the Penguins and Senators. Also, the Penguins played 24 games in last year's playoffs.
I do believe the long playoff runs take a toll in the long run. For a team like the Penguins it's an extra season of hockey after four or five years. Super intense, high energy, stressful hockey.
Rangers I think ran into this a couple years ago.
eh, I was surprised they overturned it because on the ice it was called a goal, and even in the replays it seems like Anderson fell first and his momentum was carrying him into the net and the puck was loose around him Daley dug at it and was pushed a little bit into Anderson by Karlsson. I didn't see enough to overturn it so I feel like the call on the ice should have stood.
But you are 100% correct about Rangers fans if they allowed that goal on Hank.
We've known for decades a hot goalie can carry a team to the cup. How is that a strategy, can teams counter a hot goalie? Absolutely. and not just with puck luck, which I do believe is somewhat created not just luck.
I think Rinne is a hot goalie right now, I know you don't but in watching the games, and his game specifically, he's absolutely the story in NSH. Rinne, Forsberg and their D.
Only when justified
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A hot goalie doesn't really say much about Corsi - I'd argue that the increased parity in the league decreases the value of any (supposed) predictive measure. Possession numbers have been getting clustered together - the gaps are too small now. I also think that's why we're seeing less President's Trophy winners win the whole thing, and seeing runs by teams that were average in the regular season. And we've always seen that to a degree, but it feels like it's increasing in recent years.
We've known for decades a hot goalie can carry a team to the cup. How is that a strategy, can teams counter a hot goalie? Absolutely. and not just with puck luck, which I do believe is somewhat created not just luck.
I think Rinne is a hot goalie right now, I know you don't but in watching the games, and his game specifically, he's absolutely the story in NSH. Rinne, Forsberg and their D.
I think the D's a bigger story than Rinne. If we're allocating credit, they get a bigger share than he does by a large margin IMO.
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Ridiculous.
Only when justified
Too soon.
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In comment 13482355 BrettNYG10 said:
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A hot goalie doesn't really say much about Corsi - I'd argue that the increased parity in the league decreases the value of any (supposed) predictive measure. Possession numbers have been getting clustered together - the gaps are too small now. I also think that's why we're seeing less President's Trophy winners win the whole thing, and seeing runs by teams that were average in the regular season. And we've always seen that to a degree, but it feels like it's increasing in recent years.
We've known for decades a hot goalie can carry a team to the cup. How is that a strategy, can teams counter a hot goalie? Absolutely. and not just with puck luck, which I do believe is somewhat created not just luck.
I think Rinne is a hot goalie right now, I know you don't but in watching the games, and his game specifically, he's absolutely the story in NSH. Rinne, Forsberg and their D.
I think the D's a bigger story than Rinne. If we're allocating credit, they get a bigger share than he does by a large margin IMO.
Maybe offensively, but the defensive is not making saves.
I don't see how you can watch that Anaheim series and watch the last game where he made 38 saves in regulation, not an OT game and say it's the defense. He's made over 30 saves each of the last three games of the series
He had a bad game 2, but otherwise has been stellar.
the Ducks had a ton of quality scoring chances (I am sure you have an advanced stats for quality scoring chances) and when the save is made, that's the goalie.
I posted this before, in these playoffs Rinne has allowed more than 3 goals 1 time in 14 games.
He allowed 3 goals in 4 games against the Blackhawks, that's not your defense when your goalie has a ridiculous almost 98% save percentage.
He has a 94% save percentage in the playoffs. That is carry your team type numbers. 2012 Jonathan Quick-like performance.
And arguing that the defense is the reason for that seems like a vendetta against Rinne for some reason. I've never been a huge fan of his, but when I watch the Preds these playoffs, he's been phenomenal - including handling the puck which helps his defense more than some people may realize.
2012 Jonathan Quick. 8th seed wins the cup.
2011 Tim Thomas, yes, the Bruins were a 103 point team, but Thomas was a big reason for that and it was still tied for 5th best in the conference.
In addition to the ones you mentioned.
Also I count the 1993 Canadiens, Roy was just slightly less stellar than 1986, but his team was not nearly as good.
Most Stanley Cup Playoff games since 2011-12.
Well, when you put it that way, who can argue with you?
I could see if he was getting 20 shots a game or if they were winning a bunch of 5 - 3 games. Or even watch the games and if you feel most of his shots against were coming from safe places and rebounds were being cleared right away, I could see an argument, but I don't see any of that.
look at the Blackhawks series.
1 - 0
5 - 0
3 - 2 (2 OT)
4 - 1
he had 29, 30, 34, and 30 saves respectively.
that's not your defense. Chicago was a top 10 scoring team in the league during the regular season.
but whatever, everyone has their opinion.
When the Predators lose to the Pens or Senators I'm sure people will blame Rinne not the defense.
I agree he's played well. But I don't think he's carrying the team like Quick did for LA in 2012.
Conn Smythe odds - ( New Window )
who else, Forsberg? Right now he'd be the only other Preds player in contention. and that flies in the face a little about your theory the defense deserve more credit than Rinne if Forsberg wins Conn Smythe.
no one else is in the conversation without seeing how the finals plays out, but based on the fact we're assuming the Predators win.
He's blowing away the field, since I doubt Matt Murray keeps up that pace beyond his small sample.