2017: Giants will make their SB run this year

We have a good shot at it. Strong defense and a lot of new weapons on the offense that won't be so predictable this year.

I disagree that Eli is losing hi mojo. He doesn't like getting hit and perhaps he wants to retire without life long nagging injuries from playing one of the hardest games on a human body. As soon as he smells the pocket collapsing, he gets rid of the ball before someone spears his legs or hits him so hard he gets a concussion. Personally, I think he will play as long as he still has the desire to play, which could be 3 or 4 more years. But it's all up to him. He's not Peyton and he has nothing left to prove. He's a strong family man with 3 daughters and a beautiful wife and probably more money than he and his daughters can ever spend. It's all about what he wants and it's hard to tell if he still wants it as bad as his brother did once he reached the age that many retire.

In comment 13471322 mavric said:

Quote:

We have a good shot at it. Strong defense and a lot of new weapons on the offense that won't be so predictable this year. I disagree that Eli is losing hi mojo. He doesn't like getting hit and perhaps he wants to retire without life long nagging injuries from playing one of the hardest games on a human body. As soon as he smells the pocket collapsing, he gets rid of the ball before someone spears his legs or hits him so hard he gets a concussion. Personally, I think he will play as long as he still has the desire to play, which could be 3 or 4 more years. But it's all up to him. He's not Peyton and he has nothing left to prove. He's a strong family man with 3 daughters and a beautiful wife and probably more money than he and his daughters can ever spend. It's all about what he wants and it's hard to tell if he still wants it as bad as his brother did once he reached the age that many retire.

I know in this offense, Eli is "trained" to throw the ball very fast. Behind a more consistent OL, he might hold onto it .3 or .4 seconds longer (a guess) which doesn't sound like much but its like another read or deeper throw. I hope Eli's regression has more to do with the OL than his "legs" so we'll see. I hope Eli has a strong year with more weapons.

2011- Washed up = Super Bowl.

In comment 13471340 River said:

Quote:

2011- Washed up = Super Bowl.

Not tracking what you mean? 2017 - washed up?

In comment 13471334 SGMen said:

Quote:

I know in this offense, Eli is "trained" to throw the ball very fast. Behind a more consistent OL, he might hold onto it .3 or .4 seconds longer (a guess) which doesn't sound like much but its like another read or deeper throw. I hope Eli's regression has more to do with the OL than his "legs" so we'll see. I hope Eli has a strong year with more weapons.

I realize the Eli is running plays to get rid of the ball fast, but the expression on his face sometimes looks like frustration. Getting rid of the ball in 2 seconds instead of 3 or 4 causes him to rush and sometimes the receivers aren't free. It's worse when He's only got a second and he can tell he's about to get hit. Imagine what he could do if given 4-5 seconds or more to work with.

Last year he seemed really frustrated and I don't think it has anything to do with his ability, but lack of time for a play to unfold like it's drawn up. And I do think that he doesn't want to get hit. Which coincidentally is a lot of the reason he never misses a game. He'll ground the ball or take a fall many times before taking a hard hit.

Hopefully, the addition of Ellison to help Flowers protect his blind side and better competition on the right side will give him that comfort zone to really be the QB he knows he is.

In comment 13471352 SGMen said:

Quote:

In comment 13471340 River said: Quote: 2011- Washed up = Super Bowl. Not tracking what you mean? 2017 - washed up?

Yes this season Eli is in pro bowl mode again.

Is Arron Rodger has as big a chip on his shoulders.
He destroyed our defense like no one else last year.

because so many things can happen to derail a team.

However, I do see solid signs that this team will be improved from last year. The arrow is really pointing up for NY Giant fans.

In comment 13471367 mrvax said:

Quote:

because so many things can happen to derail a team. However, I do see solid signs that this team will be improved from last year. The arrow is really pointing up for NY Giant fans.

I agree, so many things have to go just right to make the SB, including health, luck, youth developing, and the draft class contributing as the season moves along more & more to change things up.

I just think this year's team, on paper, seems more well rounded on offense and therefore we should move the ball better.

Keys include RB Perkins really stepping up and RB Vereen contributing all year as he is a much needed outlet receiver and spot runner in this offense.

and DRC stays on the field he doesnt make those plays,like wise i think moss upgrades the depth at DE and jpp with luck plays huge difference .the offence should be able to move the ball better too both on the ground and thru the air they should be more prepared for green bay this year,note to spags practice hail mary drills dont get caught out like they did last year!

i also think the giants win the division and should they get matched with rodgers again this time hopefully the giants are at home which should tip the odds more in the giants favour too

In comment 13471373 msh said:

Quote:

and DRC stays on the field he doesnt make those plays,like wise i think moss upgrades the depth at DE and jpp with luck plays huge difference .the offence should be able to move the ball better too both on the ground and thru the air they should be more prepared for green bay this year,note to spags practice hail mary drills dont get caught out like they did last year! i also think the giants win the division and should they get matched with rodgers again this time hopefully the giants are at home which should tip the odds more in the giants favour too

If this defense stays healthy and gets healthy (FS D. Thompson is a KEY potential upside cog) and develops (Apple, Adams, Thompson, etc.) we will have enough "hands on deck" for Green Bay.

I think Dallas will have a potent offense but I also believe their defense will go south this year. The Eagles should be better but a notch below us. Washington should falter with their offensive UFA losses and such.

If Apple becomes a bona-fide stud along with Jenkins, DRC, Collins this defense is set along the front four and back "five" (nickel's play so much) and hopefully MLB Goodson is a big improvement making us even stronger.

This is a right handed offense and rarely is the inline TE on the left side.

The Giants aren't going to change the offense to help Flowers out very often, especially on passing downs.

"You have to believe that both OT Flowers and Hart will improve in year 3"

I'm not so sure about that belief being a have-to.

that a healthy Pugh will help Flowers.

The giants have the worse schedule with regard to west coast trips, playing teams after their ( the other teams bye) and lack of rest. If they make it to the playoffs, and remainly comparatively healthy they may have a chance.

In comment 13471419 Steve in South Jersey said:

Quote:

that a healthy Pugh will help Flowers.

So what's the plan for Pugh's annual 3 game or more hiatus due to bruises, headaches, or sprains?

In comment 13471419 Steve in South Jersey said:

Quote:

that a healthy Pugh will help Flowers.

Absolutely. What killed this team last year was the "lack of blocking" cause by non-developing Flowers; injured Pugh; early ineffectiveness of Richburg; Hart not developing (Newhouse ineffective); and losing FB Johnson.
You can also throw in the fact that we had hoped Cruz would bounce back but he didn't. We lost Vereen. It just fell apart for the offense last year.

This year, again assuming the best and that the youth will develop and the rookie TE Engream develops more and more as a down the field / middle threat; well, this offense has some potential. I think our offense puts it together this year. Not Top 5 or anything but solid.

In comment 13471352 SGMen said:

Quote:

In comment 13471340 River said: Quote: 2011- Washed up = Super Bowl. I think he meant to say 2011 Comical = Superbowl, 2014 Elite = Superbowl, 2017 Washed Up = Superbowl Not tracking what you mean? 2017 - washed up?

and make all the excuses in the world for Flowers. When you get beaten like a drum and show horrible technique its not the Gs fault playing next to you. Im no Pugh homer but Flowers has stunk up the joint on his own merits and anyone should be able to see that.

AFC is pretty stacked...but never say never

In comment 13471367 mrvax said:

Quote:

because so many things can happen to derail a team. However, I do see solid signs that this team will be improved from last year. The arrow is really pointing up for NY Giant fans.

I agree. I don't feel you can really say a super bowl run based on the sheer talent level of other teams in the playoffs. But I do feel like this is a team that can get into the tournament this year and be one of the teams in the league that will be taken more seriously then others.

I mean look at Aaron Rodgers. He's by far the best QB in the NFC and maybe he league. He wins games by himself which Eli at this point rarely can do. Yet Eli holds the hardware over Rodgers. Once you're in the tournament for the most part it's a crap shoot. That's why I'm only comfortable saying this team definitely looks like it will make the tournament and have a better chance then some of the other teams at advancing. Which is really all one can ask of their favorite team.

I just hope the defense can duplicate or expand on what it did last season. And hope that the offense can at the very least get back to the 2015 level. If both of those Allison gb I will be very optimistic.

In comment 13471471 area junc said:

Quote:

and make all the excuses in the world for Flowers. When you get beaten like a drum and show horrible technique its not the Gs fault playing next to you. Im no Pugh homer but Flowers has stunk up the joint on his own merits and anyone should be able to see that.

Don't even get me started with Flowers. I think I've made my position with Flowers clear on this board over the past 6 months abundantly clear. One attribute that Flowers has is he is a tough SOB - and I'm not referring to the shove he gets on reporters. His high tolerance for pain allowed him to gut it out on a high ankle sprain that would have sent others to the bench. He still sucks at his craft, but you can count on the guy to tough it out.

Pugh on the other hand is nearly as soft as Beatty was. Pugh's second year he misses games with a bruise on his thigh. Third year he misses games with a headache. Fourth year, more games missed to a sprained knee.

in the division and 3 - 0 over all. A good start would put them in great shape.

If the protection improves and the skill guys are as good as advertised he'll have the statistical year fans clamor for.

Eli wasn't the reason the Giants lost in Green Bay last year.

In comment 13471494 SterlingArcher said:

Quote:

in the division and 3 - 0 over all. A good start would put them in great shape.

A HEALTHY 3-0 would definitely set the tone for the season and the division championship.

I have a feeling that QB Drak Prescott will be "figured" out a bit this year now that we have some tape on him. I'm not saying he'll regress so much as he is not going to progress. It is just a hunch.

The Eagles have some potential though, I think.

3-0, healthy and rolliing, would be huge.

Solari has to simplify the blocking schemes and then you hope continuity and added experience lead to enough improvement so that every play is not a jailbreak by the defense.

will be like Webster in 2007. 3rd year player who finally "gets it," leading to a SB run.

Betcha a month of reddit gold.... /r/highstakesbbi

In comment 13471526 Vanzetti said:

Quote:

Solari has to simplify the blocking schemes and then you hope continuity and added experience lead to enough improvement so that every play is not a jailbreak by the defense.

I don't know if "simplify" is the right word. I think it is more like year 2 the players should "get it" better and the results should be better.

I honestly believe Pugh & Richburg are in the upper quarter of the league talent wise. Flowers has potential if he can just get some technique & consistency issues down. Jerry is quite "average" and maybe Fluker upgrades on the right side though I do hope Hart steps up and wins the job outright.

Because of the additions on offense of WR Marshall, TE Engram, etc., I think our offense will show improvement. We just need to stay healthy. We are only 2 years removed from being 8th in the league in yards. I think we can get back to around there and Marshall should help our redzone offense.

In comment 13471364 River said:

Quote:

Is Arron Rodger has as big a chip on his shoulders. He destroyed our defense like no one else last year.

Rodgers never destroyed a legitimately good defense in the playoffs from 2011 to 2015.

Giants, Niners, Niners, Seahawks, Cardinals.

Gotta elevate to those level of defenses to beat Packers in playoffs.

In comment 13471564 NINEster said:

Quote:

In comment 13471364 River said: Quote: Is Arron Rodger has as big a chip on his shoulders. He destroyed our defense like no one else last year. Rodgers never destroyed a legitimately good defense in the playoffs from 2011 to 2015. Giants, Niners, Niners, Seahawks, Cardinals. Gotta elevate to those level of defenses to beat Packers in playoffs.

Had DRC not gotten hurt during the game, I doubt Rodgers destroys us. The "Hail Mary" and the big dropped passes are what cost us the game along with DRC getting hurt.

He did not look old to me last year, just bad at times. Tell me if I am wrong. Did anyone notice weak throws or another sign of age? I noticed frustration!

In comment 13471581 wgenesis123 said:

Quote:

He did not look old to me last year, just bad at times. Tell me if I am wrong. Did anyone notice weak throws or another sign of age? I noticed frustration!

A friend of mine was watching footage from the 2011 season and then went right to watching footage from last year and he said the difference in arm strength was very noticeable to him.

I do, however, get the distinct impression that McAdoo is not a big Eli fan. Eli is built for a vertical play-action offense, which is not McAdoo's offense. And it was quite a damning statement he made a couple months ago when he questioned Eli's courage in the pocket.

If the rest of the offense stays relatively healthy, this year will be a big test for Eli, because the pieces are in place for a statistically huge year. Last year that was anything but the case, so he deserves a mulligan from a statistical point of view. As for arm strength and courage in the pocket, I can't claim to have noticed anything other than a QB without enough time to throw to receivers who aren't getting open.

p.s.--As has been said repeatedly, the playoff loss certainly wasn't on Eli. He looked plenty sharp that day.

2011 to 2016. What would surprise me is if that keen eye could see weak throws like we noticed with Peyton at the end. I think Eli can still force a defense to cover the whole field and I think he can still deliver the ball into tight windows.

of the doubt, because he was a 7th round pick, as far as needing time to develop, but man, if I hear about Flowers being 23 one more time I'm gonna shit. His young age is usually mentioned along with his athleticism. He may be athletic, but he sure wasnt athletic stepping out and backward to defend Eli. But that was his poor technique right? And why the fuck did he disregard what he was being coached and fall back on looking like he was in quicksand? Ok, there goes my Flowers bash. I won't rule out that he will figure out the T position, and play decent this season, but I sure the fuck aint betting on it.
Whether it comes from payers figuring it out, or new players winning jobs, or a shuffling around of the O linemen, the Giants O line will be better, and that will make a huge difference for the offense. I dont like the blame Eli got from Reese or Mac. Seems kind of blind to how shitty the O line was. It can get to a QB not having trust in his O line, even a vet like Eli. Eli will be good as long as he has a few seconds to deliver the ball.
The Giants will certainly be Super Bowl contenders.

In comment 13471583 Milton said:

Quote:

In comment 13471581 wgenesis123 said: Quote: He did not look old to me last year, just bad at times. Tell me if I am wrong. Did anyone notice weak throws or another sign of age? I noticed frustration! A friend of mine was watching footage from the 2011 season and then went right to watching footage from last year and he said the difference in arm strength was very noticeable to him. I do, however, get the distinct impression that McAdoo is not a big Eli fan. Eli is built for a vertical play-action offense, which is not McAdoo's offense. And it was quite a damning statement he made a couple months ago when he questioned Eli's courage in the pocket. If the rest of the offense stays relatively healthy, this year will be a big test for Eli, because the pieces are in place for a statistically huge year. Last year that was anything but the case, so he deserves a mulligan from a statistical point of view. As for arm strength and courage in the pocket, I can't claim to have noticed anything other than a QB without enough time to throw to receivers who aren't getting open. p.s.--As has been said repeatedly, the playoff loss certainly wasn't on Eli. He looked plenty sharp that day.

The regression in some arm strength is basically what I heard too. Peyton couldn't really zip it in his final season, largely due to his advancing age I'd guess. Eli still has enough arm strength to get the job done but no way does he have the arm of 2011. The key for him will be to be "Brady like" in that he makes his 20 and under throws with his accuracy and almost no turnovers.

I think with improved OL play and added weapons, Eli has a shot to have his best year under McAdoo and really make another SB run. Just stay healthy on offense and we should compete throughout the year.

Schedule is a bitch though.

...still concerned with the offensive line. Not certain where the improvement is going to come from. Richburg healthy? That would help. Fluker proving he is a legit starting caliber player? Couldn't hurt. Hart or someone...anyone? taking the reins at RT and solidifying that position is a must but far from certain. And of course Flowers making the [i]quantum leap[i] from the struggling two year starter we've seen so far to a steady fixture on Eli's blindside.

Seems like a lot to ask this cadre to significantly improve their results with no premium talent added to the mix from last season.

And as others have mentioned we have an incredibly brutal schedule. 10 wins will be a very good result. We could be an improved team that misses out on a playoff spot if we drop a couple close games and don't win our division. The good news on this front is the Cowboys schedule is very difficult as well and they're the team we need to supplant atop the NFC East.

Offense: Both Tackles obviously

Defense: Safety

...wasn't it even McAdoo that commented on Eli's improved arm strength?

It was supposedly the one thing he's been working on, and everyone said it was noticeable how much zip he had.

I really don't see any difference in Manning, besides the fact he's got people in his face more often, and he's throwing more short stuff than before (offense philosophy).

no depth at S, starting FS a ?, no depth at CB. THey woul dhave to reamian extremely healthy again.

In comment 13471625 Victor in CT said:

Quote:

no depth at S, starting FS a ?, no depth at CB. THey woul dhave to reamian extremely healthy again.

I think we have some depth after the starters, even if FS Adams is the starter while D. Thompson still mends. No teams are super deep due to free agency and what not.

...this team goes as far as Eli takes it.

Since 2011, I haven't really seen much of the unsinkable, comeback kid who led us to 2 titles in his first 7 full seasons.

IMO, his confidence was destroyed 2012-2013. Last year showed promise that he may be coming back around, but my dreams of him having a Tittle/Simms-like maturation haven't been realized - yet. I'm still waiting for that season where we see the INT numbers come way down.

In comment 13471647 x meadowlander said:

Quote:

...this team goes as far as Eli takes it. Since 2011, I haven't really seen much of the unsinkable, comeback kid who led us to 2 titles in his first 7 full seasons. IMO, his confidence was destroyed 2012-2013. Last year showed promise that he may be coming back around, but my dreams of him having a Tittle/Simms-like maturation haven't been realized - yet. I'm still waiting for that season where we see the INT numbers come way down.

In this offense and with our weapons, turnovers should go down to say a dozen at best (including fumbles) from Eli. Honestly, we pass quick and short and Eli should NOT be forcing things now.

In comment 13471647 x meadowlander said:

Quote:

...this team goes as far as Eli takes it. Since 2011, I haven't really seen much of the unsinkable, comeback kid who led us to 2 titles in his first 7 full seasons. IMO, his confidence was destroyed 2012-2013. Last year showed promise that he may be coming back around, but my dreams of him having a Tittle/Simms-like maturation haven't been realized - yet. I'm still waiting for that season where we see the INT numbers come way down.

I saw that guy in GB in the playoff game. Too bad the WR corp didn't play to hislevel.

First of all, injuries happen, so you can't just say things "Pugh will be healthy this year". We could lose a couple of key players for chunks of the season, in fact we likely will.

Second, it is not like the rest of the League is just standing still. Two teams we played last year and were better than us (Pittsburgh and Green Bay) have been working to improve their teams. I don't see a drop off in Atlanta and NE is improved. I think the Raiders are a strong team.

I am not saying the Giants won't be competitive, they might be, but I still think they are a notch below the best teams and I am not sure they closed that gap much.

I am optimistic, but that is based on trajectory and outlook. I am tempering my expectations and hoping for the best.

Potential for top 10 offense and defense this year

Not many teams can say that. This team is loaded and definitely 1 of the best in the NFL. Just get Eli into the playoffs (and catch the ball)

with a dominant O-Line, a potent offense, and a defense improved over last year, could just be enough to see them start a SB run, but injuries, coaching errors, rookie mistakes, Eli's aging, or even over emotional reactions from ODB, could, when combined with the tough schedule leave a window for some other NFC East team, or even Green Bay. Or, there might even be a nuclear attack by North Korea.

arguments are any different that just saying same group as last year with another year under their belt and a more desperate Eli - or how that necessarily leads you to a superbowl

I like a lot of the Giants proposed additions this year -- want to see them all spend some time together and see what emerges

my argument is the following for an improvement over last year -- if Tomlinson is a wash with Hankins -- and essentially the same Defense is returning -- and the Offense has been improved with the addition of Engram, Ellison, Marshall, Galman and possibly also with Fluker/Bisnowaty - and you also add a healthy Vereen

Then the Giants will have to be reckoned with

Special teams are a big question -- especially at kicker --

but there is reason enough to form a belief that the Giants have improved themselves

In comment 13471671 DonQuixote said:

Quote:

First of all, injuries happen, so you can't just say things "Pugh will be healthy this year". We could lose a couple of key players for chunks of the season, in fact we likely will. Second, it is not like the rest of the League is just standing still. Two teams we played last year and were better than us (Pittsburgh and Green Bay) have been working to improve their teams. I don't see a drop off in Atlanta and NE is improved. I think the Raiders are a strong team. I am not saying the Giants won't be competitive, they might be, but I still think they are a notch below the best teams and I am not sure they closed that gap much. I am optimistic, but that is based on trajectory and outlook. I am tempering my expectations and hoping for the best.

The hardest thing to predict is injuries. The second hardest thing is player development. I am hedging a bet that LT Flowers, RT Hart, TE Tye, CB Apple, FS D. Thompson (if healthy), DE Okwara, DE OWA (ha ha?), etc. develop at least somewhat. If they ALL don't we are screwed. If they all do we are elite. Or more likely we'll have a mix of surprises, marginal improvent and status quo performances.

I think we had an all-time Giants off-season last year and this year was at least solid. Losing DT Hankins hurts but otherwise I think we did what we could.

But an injury to Eli or OBJ and this team will limp through the season. That is football and you can say the same thing about GreenBay, the Raiders, Dallas (Prescott), etc.

We get healthy and stay healthy through say a solid 3-0 start and I will really begin to believe. A good start is key cause we travel a lot during the year and will likely have a clunker or two away.

but if we don't get better play out from our Offensive Tackles, we will not do better than last year.

In comment 13471736 Jimmy Googs said:

Quote:

but if we don't get better play out from our Offensive Tackles, we will not do better than last year.

Googs -- not sure i agree with you -- better Offensive Tackle play will certainly improve the Giants -- but adding Engram, Marshall and Ellison represents improvements too

and send the opponent to the sidelines on 3rd down we are not going to the SB.

In comment 13471953 mdc1 said:

Quote:

and send the opponent to the sidelines on 3rd down we are not going to the SB.

The OL is an "unknown" in the sense that it is a 2nd year Solari group; fairly young at OT; and, we just don't know how much improvement we'll see (if any) from them?

I'll say the since both Flowers and Hart have slimmed down some and are now in year #3 in the NFL and #2 under Solari they'll improve. By how much, well, that remains to be seen. Not sure whether Fluker will win RT either as that is a possiblity as well. We had no FB last year and no true blocking TE. I think Adams becomes our big blocking TE.

I do believe Pugh and Richburg, when healthy and on top of their game, can be standout. We just have to hope Flowers, Hart develop as does TE Adams and we may have enough blockin to be dangerous.

In comment 13471824 gidiefor said:

Quote:

In comment 13471736 Jimmy Googs said: Quote: but if we don't get better play out from our Offensive Tackles, we will not do better than last year. Googs -- not sure i agree with you -- better Offensive Tackle play will certainly improve the Giants -- but adding Engram, Marshall and Ellison represents improvements too

I don't see it. See easily handled on these edges that Offense will continue to struggle (and be too inconsistent) unless there is some stability there. Add all the weapons you want...

Flowers came out of college "raw" and everyone knew he needed technique work. He was thrust into the starting role due to the unfortunate injury to Beatty in the off-season. While Flowers didn't flourish as a rookie, he held his own despite a bad ankle. Year 2, he got a new OL coach and maybe didn't work as hard as he should have in the off-season. Word is this year he has slimmed down.

This is pure instinct, gut talk from me here but I have to believe he improves his consistency. The guy is 23 and while people don't want to hear it, well it takes some guys longer to get it than others. He may not be an All-Pro at LT but I think he'll be a bit better and more reliable, especially in Year #2 with Solari.

Same goes for young 7th round pick RT B. Hart - he'll get a bit better in year 2 now that he has real game experience. Again, not an All-Pro but good enough to live with maybe.

I'm intrigued by this year's OL pick, Boswaty as well. He started at LT for I believe four years in college and fell in the draft. He may need a year of work but maybe he'll surprise and be a swing tackle.

Skill position players will help the OL because this is a short, quick hit passing game so there isn't as much pressure on this OL as there would have been on the Gillbride OL's where the deep ball was more prevalent.

We can use a healthy year and a big year from Pugh & Richburg both as they have solid technique. Lets see TE Adams and how he does blocking inline. Do we carry a FB or not? Lots of blocking questions but if healthy I see continuity alone improving the OL play.

When Tony Romo went down last year for Dallas I thought we had the division won. But Drak Prescott shocked & the Dallas defense was much better than I thought it would be.

So I thought last year's signings on defense coupled with an offense that had ranked 8th the year before would be enough to make a SB run. Close, but no cigar against better teams like GreenBay and ATL late (though we did not play them, they were good down the stretch..) and so forth.

So by SB run, I mean "do we have the talent base to realistically make a run?" - I say YES. The defense has a shot to be top 5 if healthy. The offense should once again be able to pass the ball very effectively. I also think our run game and short pass game to backs will be better this year than last as Jennings was clearly finished and Vereen was hurt.

Making predicitions is a "just for fun" thing since you have so so many variables from season to season; from injury to injury; from draftees to UDFA's, etc. But as of right now I do predict this team is BETTER talent wise than last year's group. 2017 or bust!

In comment 13471824 gidiefor said:

Quote:

In comment 13471736 Jimmy Googs said: Quote: but if we don't get better play out from our Offensive Tackles, we will not do better than last year. Googs -- not sure i agree with you -- better Offensive Tackle play will certainly improve the Giants -- but adding Engram, Marshall and Ellison represents improvements too

Bottomline it starts up front..if it doesn't then those guys aren't going to perform or be productive as you are basing everything on.

Ok fails = whole offense fails..period.

You just can't be BELOW average in multiple spots cause teams will exploit you. Last year, our OT's were below average and we had no viable blocking TE or FB to assist. Throw in the fact that WR Cruz could not get open and Jennings was past his prime at RB - well, you had a total meltdown from multiple positions and that was unexpected.

Our DL should be strong and fairly deep, assuming #2 pick DT D. Tomlinson performs as a rookie. The kid is from a pro-style defense ALABAMA and is a fifth year guy so he is experienced. Will Bromley step up? Will OWA become an inside pass rusher with that first step of his? Hard to say though I wouldn't bet on it.

I truly believe that year #2 of Solari's OL play will see improvement. Continuity is on our side so we just need to stay healthy or hope RT Fluker surprises and wins the job outright. Or RT Hart surprises. LT Flowers must progress though and hold his own else our offense will be a bit more limited.

In comment 13472470 micky said:

Quote:

Bottomline it starts up front..if it doesn't then those guys aren't going to perform or be productive as you are basing everything on. Ok fails = whole offense fails..period.

The only thing that puts a wrench in your theory -- is that in 2015 - with the same Offensive line as 2016 -- the Giants had one of their most productive offenses of the past ten years

So while I buy that a good offensive line can only help -- it does not have to be necessarily much better than it was in 2015 --

based on what I've been hearing, however:
- I believe Bisnatoway is going to be an improvement over Bobby Hart
- no-one really knows what Fluker represents at all - he came from a horrible offensive line - worse than the Giants - could he be an improvement over John Jerry?
- everyone here is down on Flowers - but I think he's under-rated, under-appreciated, and developing
- Both Pugh and Richburg are above average players -- are they going to be healthy? - that's what you need from them to see a decent season

it's possible to believe - given the above that there will be modest improvement from the Offensive line --

But also having line assistance from Ellison - has to help
Having two bigger targets out there has to help
Having Vereen back for dump offs has to help
Having a better TE corps in general has to help
Having a true power back has to help

Take/Get - one third of the above working out and you still have improvement on offense

In comment 13472485 gidiefor said:

Quote:

In comment 13472470 micky said: Quote: Bottomline it starts up front..if it doesn't then those guys aren't going to perform or be productive as you are basing everything on. Ok fails = whole offense fails..period. The only thing that puts a wrench in your theory -- is that in 2015 - with the same Offensive line as 2016 -- the Giants had one of their most productive offenses of the past ten years So while I buy that a good offensive line can only help -- it does not have to be necessarily much better than it was in 2015 -- based on what I've been hearing, however: - I believe Bisnatoway is going to be an improvement over Bobby Hart - no-one really knows what Fluker represents at all - he came from a horrible offensive line - worse than the Giants - could he be an improvement over John Jerry? - everyone here is down on Flowers - but I think he's under-rated, under-appreciated, and developing - Both Pugh and Richburg are above average players -- are they going to be healthy? - that's what you need from them to see a decent season it's possible to believe - given the above that there will be modest improvement from the Offensive line -- But also having line assistance from Ellison - has to help Having two bigger targets out there has to help Having Vereen back for dump offs has to help Having a better TE corps in general has to help Having a true power back has to help Take/Get - one third of the above working out and you still have improvement on offense

RT Bisnotaway could surprise and win the RT job. RT Hart gave up 46 QB pressures which is a ridiculously high number. You have to assume he can only get better but by how much? Bisnotaway is a four year starter and will compete for a starting job as a rookie - I truly believe that. If he wins the job outright I'd be ecstatic. At his point, as a rookie, he is a wildcard. But if we have starters in TE Engram (most snaps more important than "starting"); DT Tomlinson; OL Bisnotaway; well, this draft will have provided what we needed to fill holes and add mis-matches.

I also like our RB corps better this year, if VEREEN is healthy. Last year, Jennings was old; Perkins was a rookie still learning; Vereen was playing hurt than IR'd; and Dwarka was hurt. We never really could get going with no blocking TE, FB or OT of merit coupled with poor runners.

and was so appalled at how easily they mauled our Offensive Tackles. Flowers put on a clinic on "how to not pass block" at any football level causing immediate pressure in numerous instances. Hart was both overwhelmed with brute strength and sometimes with easy twist stunts by the Cowboys. Cowboys kept attacking both edges all night long.

Three turnovers by Giant offense, 2 fumbles by Eli as he was hit by free rushers, 3 sacks and awful 2 of 14 on 3rd down.

Sure the Giants won, because the Defense was fantastic and OBJ slipped free for a 61-yard catch & run TD.

I do agree the Offensive Tackles don't need to turn into Pro Bowlers for the Offense to be dangerous. But at the level they played that night (and all night), there is no way we are advancing any further...

In comment 13472503 Jimmy Googs said:

Quote:

and was so appalled at how easily they mauled our Offensive Tackles. Flowers put on a clinic on "how to not pass block" at any football level causing immediate pressure in numerous instances. Hart was both overwhelmed with brute strength and sometimes with easy twist stunts by the Cowboys. Cowboys kept attacking both edges all night long. Three turnovers by Giant offense, 2 fumbles by Eli as he was hit by free rushers, 3 sacks and awful 2 of 14 on 3rd down. Sure the Giants won, because the Defense was fantastic and OBJ slipped free for a 61-yard catch & run TD. I do agree the Offensive Tackles don't need to turn into Pro Bowlers for the Offense to be dangerous. But at the level they played that night (and all night), there is no way we are advancing any further...

We had one of the worst, if not the worst, OT tandems (and TE / FB blocking) in the league last year and it hurt this offense an awful lot. We couldn't help our OT's even if we wanted to as we had no blockers!

My brother is a Dallas fan and he commented on the difference in the Dallas stud OL vs our porous OL.

Having said all that, you have to believe there is nothing but room for improvement. Get to "average" at OT and we'll be a superb offense. That is asking a lot, yes, but I do believe Flowers has the potential at least to get to average. Hart, well, he is physically limited. Maybe rookie OT Bisnotaway wins the RT job outright or RT Fluker. We'll see BUT there is nothing but upside I think. That is the key, HOPE. LOL.

in my view, if Reese & Co. go into 2017 season with Flowers and Hart as the de facto Offensive Tackles then he is simply being reckless.

its May 16th...

Optimism is fine, but let's be realistic. The Giants have a very difficult schedule that includes four trips to the west coast. You could argue that while the Cowboys may have taken a step back, personnel-wise, the Eagles and the Redskins had very productive off-seasons and should be improved this year. It's going to be tough for the Giants to make the playoffs again, let alone win their division, even with a winning record.

You really think they're going to find a good OT now? That ship has sailed.

You are 100% correct that it's largely glossed over how bad our OT play was. It was minimized due to scheme and that seems like the plan again this year. Scary - because Rhett Ellison ain't saving what happened last year, and neither are bounce-back years from Pugh and Richburg.

#1 seed in the NFC.
Beat the Cowboys and the Packers in the playoffs.
Beat the Patriots, again, in the Super Bowl.

In comment 13472580 Glover said:

Quote:

#1 seed in the NFC. Beat the Cowboys and the Packers in the playoffs. Beat the Patriots, again, in the Super Bowl.

Naahh, I'm tired of beating the Patriots in the Super Bowl. Let's beat the Ravens instead, get some payback for 35.

In comment 13472514 Klaatu said:

Quote:

Optimism is fine, but let's be realistic. The Giants have a very difficult schedule that includes four trips to the west coast. You could argue that while the Cowboys may have taken a step back, personnel-wise, the Eagles and the Redskins had very productive off-seasons and should be improved this year. It's going to be tough for the Giants to make the playoffs again, let alone win their division, even with a winning record.

I don't think the Redskins are improved from this off-season. I do believe the Eagles have upside. The Cowboys should still be very good but no way their defense repeats last year's performance, IMHO anyway.

Again, I think our OL has nothing but upside given last year's performance. All we need is "average" from Flowers and Hart. That would be a big step up but not an unreasonable expectation for two 23 year old, 3rd year, 2nd year in Solari's system OT's. I have high hopes for uptick from both of them. Or maybe Fluker or our 6th round pick Bosinathaway steps up at RT.

We also need strong seasons from Pugh, Richburg on the inside. And some improved TE blocking would be nice as well.

Cruz - Marshall
Jennings - Perkins
Donnell / Tye - Ellison / Engram

this alone will transform this team into a SB contender

by being "another year older" or in the "system for another year".

But the other NFCE team's players not only cannot repeat the performance they had from the year prior, they get worse.

I guess it just happens...

In comment 13472621 Jimmy Googs said:

Quote:

by being "another year older" or in the "system for another year". But the other NFCE team's players not only cannot repeat the performance they had from the year prior, they get worse. I guess it just happens...

Most fans are optimists about their own team, especially this time of year and through training camp. However, with the OL, I do believe year #2 in Solari's system will bring improvement. I'm not saying we'll improve by a wide margin but I do believ3 we'll improve. Flowers, hART AND Richburg are all young guys. Maybe Bosiwatay will surprise.

As for the other teams, I go by what my brother the big "Dallas Cowboy" fan says about them to me since he follows them. He admits the defense could take a hit.

I personally see the Eagles stepping up a bit. I also see the Skins falling off just a bit due to their off-season.

But as has been noted on other threads: an injury here or there with no depth can deplete even a good team. The Giants want to make a run this year, they have to get healthy and stay healthy. I think we are in better shape this year than last in that department.

In comment 13472621 Jimmy Googs said:

Quote:

by being "another year older" or in the "system for another year". But the other NFCE team's players not only cannot repeat the performance they had from the year prior, they get worse. I guess it just happens...

In addition, all of our rookies are potential All-Pros, while every other team's rookies are, well, just rookies.

In comment 13472620 annexOPR said:

Quote:

Cruz - Marshall Jennings - Perkins Donnell / Tye - Ellison / Engram this alone will transform this team into a SB contender

There is no denying that on paper, our skill position players have been upgraded from last year. We should have a redzone offense with bigger bodies like Marshall & Engram plus TE W. Tye showed well late last year.

One guy I'm keeping an eye on is TE Adams. He is another big body guy who may develop. It would be great to have four TE's: Ellison & Adams (blockers) and Engram & Tye (receivers). Not sure if we can carry four TE's though due to our need to carry 3 QB's. Just not sure yet.

Some more than others, some not at all, and some actually get worse. The teams that get worse are the ones who lose more quality players to free agency (and age/retirement) than they pick up. And that's where the Cowboys come in. Unless Prescott takes a major step forward, I expect the team to take a major step backwards.

year with top end of the roster. I look forward to more progress too but usually with an air of realism surrounding it.

But, as an example of unbridled optimism, the statement "year #2 in Solari's system will bring improvement (in the O-line)".

Why is that? What is so special about year 2 knowing that the group went backwards in year 1? Not a whole lot of changes made or proven talent brought in on the Oline to point to. Its not like we focused the draft picks on it. The trend could be worse as clearly several guys had arrows pointing down last year. Even if some new guys become starters, Olines need time to gel together...no? It could get worse.

Why even make a statement that just yearns for some level of support...

every year we hear about the Cowboys.

Quote:

I always like how the Giant players get seemingly better Jimmy Googs : 9:48 am : link : reply by being "another year older" or in the "system for another year". But the other NFCE team's players not only cannot repeat the performance they had from the year prior, they get worse. I guess it just happens...

Despite them finishing 3rd or 4th more times in the past 15 years than 1st or 2nd in the division, they always seem to be called "the team to beat".

In comment 13472713 Jimmy Googs said:

Quote:

year with top end of the roster. I look forward to more progress too but usually with an air of realism surrounding it. But, as an example of unbridled optimism, the statement "year #2 in Solari's system will bring improvement (in the O-line)". Why is that? What is so special about year 2 knowing that the group went backwards in year 1? Not a whole lot of changes made or proven talent brought in on the Oline to point to. Its not like we focused the draft picks on it. The trend could be worse as clearly several guys had arrows pointing down last year. Even if some new guys become starters, Olines need time to gel together...no? It could get worse. Why even make a statement that just yearns for some level of support...

I think it is fairly logical to assume the players will understand a new system in year 2 better than year 1? My hope lies in that statement of logic along with the fact that our OT's are still young so hopefully there is upside. Is it a sure thing, the upside? Nope. But bringing in new bodies doesn't guarantee improvement either.

There is no way to know right now whether this OL is "status quo" or will improve other than logical HOPE based on the factors of youth and 2nd year in system. But no sure thing.

I do believe we'll be better at blocking from the TE position and that will help. That one I'm a bit more sure of than the rest.

In one statement you offer up that "new bodies doesn't guarantee improvement".

But then in another, you take the leap that our TE blocking will indeed improve, which I presume is b/c they signed Ellison.

I guess you can have it both ways...

In comment 13472716 FatMan in Charlotte said:

Quote:

every year we hear about the Cowboys. Quote: I always like how the Giant players get seemingly better Jimmy Googs : 9:48 am : link : reply by being "another year older" or in the "system for another year". But the other NFCE team's players not only cannot repeat the performance they had from the year prior, they get worse. I guess it just happens... Despite them finishing 3rd or 4th more times in the past 15 years than 1st or 2nd in the division, they always seem to be called "the team to beat".

They are the team to beat, but only in merchandise sales.

In comment 13472729 Jimmy Googs said:

Quote:

In one statement you offer up that "new bodies doesn't guarantee improvement". But then in another, you take the leap that our TE blocking will indeed improve, which I presume is b/c they signed Ellison. I guess you can have it both ways...

Well, Ellison is a better blocker than Donnell or Tye ever were or will be. And I do believe Adams has the skills to be a decent blocker. No guarantees but I feel they'll do a better job than last year's slop.

will help plug the typical unblocked LB or Safety coming in because our O-lineman could hardly ever get to the next level and/or pull-block down the LOS.

I think having Perkins/Vereen/Gallman with better motors and ability to jump/slash thru gaps and cutbacks versus Jennings will make the Oline look better. I think all 3 are better getting to the edge as well, so the combination of them and Ellison as typical blocking TE should be better together.

I think Fluker is actually a better Right Guard and/or Right Tackle than the guys we have there now. Not considerably better, but better so that should help.

I do not think Flowers and Hart are simply better because they are still young or because they are showing up in the gym more often. They have some big flaws in their games and they have to change the way they operate, otherwise they will could be out of the NFL altogether in 2 years...

In comment 13472795 Jimmy Googs said:

Quote:

will help plug the typical unblocked LB or Safety coming in because our O-lineman could hardly ever get to the next level and/or pull-block down the LOS. I think having Perkins/Vereen/Gallman with better motors and ability to jump/slash thru gaps and cutbacks versus Jennings will make the Oline look better. I think all 3 are better getting to the edge as well, so the combination of them and Ellison as typical blocking TE should be better together. I think Fluker is actually a better Right Guard and/or Right Tackle than the guys we have there now. Not considerably better, but better so that should help. I do not think Flowers and Hart are simply better because they are still young or because they are showing up in the gym more often. They have some big flaws in their games and they have to change the way they operate, otherwise they will could be out of the NFL altogether in 2 years...

Good overall synopsis. Hart I'm not as sold on since his physical skill set isn't as large as Flowers. I do believe both have upside due to their youth. How can I not believe that? The coaches havent given up on Flowers but that may also be partly due to the lack of choices they have as LT's don't grow on trees.

Again, we don't need All-Pro's or even Pro-Bowl alternate OT's but "average" would be more than enough in this quick hit offense. Flowers can be solid for 10 plays then completely miss so consistency and technique are his issues. He has physical power to be a superb run blocker.

If Fluker is a RT upgrade and Flowers improves we will be more than fine.

There's a chance, given the schedule, that the 2017 Giants are better than 2016 but have a worse record. I'm hopeful they keep it conservative on offense like they did in 2016, and simply execute a little bit better with the new players they have acquired on offense. Opening it up on offense is a recipe IMO for problems with this offensive line.

The safe bet is that, compared to 2016, the offense will be better and the defense will be worse. The big thing is I wouldn't assume the health that we had in 2016. Does that add up to 11-5 again? If I had to bet one way or the other I'd probably bet on the under, but it's close.

I will say I hate the idea of targeting a year to make a "run". How about the franchise puts something sustainable together that can string together 10+ win seasons? We've seen teams (not just the Patriots) do it in this era.

In comment 13473292 Go Terps said:

Quote:

There's a chance, given the schedule, that the 2017 Giants are better than 2016 but have a worse record. I'm hopeful they keep it conservative on offense like they did in 2016, and simply execute a little bit better with the new players they have acquired on offense. Opening it up on offense is a recipe IMO for problems with this offensive line. The safe bet is that, compared to 2016, the offense will be better and the defense will be worse. The big thing is I wouldn't assume the health that we had in 2016. Does that add up to 11-5 again? If I had to bet one way or the other I'd probably bet on the under, but it's close. I will say I hate the idea of targeting a year to make a "run". How about the franchise puts something sustainable together that can string together 10+ win seasons? We've seen teams (not just the Patriots) do it in this era.

I target a SB run every year though I realize we don't have enough talent to really beat the top teams most years. However, I see a much better overall team this year - at least on paper.

Last year I over-estimated WR V. Cruz, TE Tye, LT Flowers and our offense by a very wide margin. My optimism stemmed from our prior year overall offensive success but we didn't build on it.

Health is as you noted the key. If we had a healthy JPP and DRC for the Green Bay game who is to say the game may not have turned out differently? Injuries happen to all teams it is just where they hit that counts.

We lose say LB Casillas we'll live. We lose DT Snacks and we struggle with run defense up the middle. It is when you get hit with multiiple injuries at the same position that you really get decimated. So lets hope McAdoo's "easier style" camp couple with the new training regiment once again prove to keep us healthy through camp so we come out guns blazing and maybe a 4-0 type start.

My big thing with this year's team is I see redzone talented players on this roster: Marshall, Engram and now maybe even Tye, Adams, Perkins. We move the ball but don't score enough TD's. That will change this year so long as we stay healthy and get some improved play from our OT's.