shoot first with an iffy defensive motor is 100% a personality issue.
We get it, Jon. You love the high floor low-ceiling French guy. Smith was a shoot-first player on NC State out of necessity - who the hell else would you want taking the shots on that team? Terry Henderson? Napoleon DynamiteMaverick Rowan? Hell, like Tjarks said, NC State probably would have been better off if Smith actually HAD played as selfishly as you're accusing him of.
Seems like a strange point to attack me on.
I do like frank but that's irrelevant to my opinion of DSJ.
I've been burned enough times by score first PGs who only defend when they want to and are streaky shooters.
Hornacek has a positive rep for developing guards while in Phoenix. Smith (and this is secondary) has the kind of spark that can get the Knicks fans through what might be a rough season. Had NC State had a normal roster/coaching situation is pretty safe to suggest Smith at 8 would be a pipedream. This idea a "shoot first" PG can't be molded at 19 is absurd.
but... isn't Westbrook shoot first? Isn't Harden? Isn't Curry? The Knicks have had knucklehead shoot first PG's in Marbury the Vaseline eater, Steve Francis (was shot when he got here) and Mute quitting Derrick Rose post 20 injuries. A 19 year old kid can't be molded? Nearly EVERYONE agrees this is a potential all-star.
Frank isn't high ceiling low floor. I think he's the opposite. He's at worst a 3/D player who can chip in 5 assists per game. Tough to see him becoming more than that.
Not one instance of even a little lottery luck in over 30 years. Not. Once.
The NBA can eat a dick. I hate it. Love the knicks hate the league.
Did the league decide to play to win in a meaningless final game against the Sixers in the final game of the year? The Knicks can't even tank properly. Don't blame the league for that.
Right. Let's kill the Knicks for playing hard in a PRO NBA game. Killing the Knicks for playing hard in a game. That's where we are now? Is that it?
The mere fact we are even debating that garbage speaks to how awful the NBA truly is. The knicks did nothing wrong down the stretch. Nothing. They even "rested" players more often than not. You can't throw games. You just can't. Throwing a game literally destroys the product. It damages the credibility of the game. The Knicks lost a lot of games down the stretch. They win one or two and fans sit here and actually say the words "the knicks don't deserve a good lottery pick because they won a game in March"
you want to nitpick I think they should have given Ndour some burn a bit earlier. They kept talking him up, why not use the end of the season to see if he's worthy of a roster spot? He showed some flashes but so few games and literally when teams were "dead". Not a big deal, just wish they would have done that.
Frank isn't high ceiling low floor. I think he's the opposite. He's at worst a 3/D player who can chip in 5 assists per game. Tough to see him becoming more than that.
Smith unquestionably had the higher ceiling.
Greg said he was the "high floor low-ceiling French guy". You are in agreement.
I dont have an opinion of him but if he's really a low ceiling guy, Im a pass. Get lucky finding role players elsewhere. At 8 you have a shot at someone with a good ceiling. Fultz, Ball, Jackson, Tatum, Smith, Isaac, Fox = 7 guys I'd be happy with, and I could be talked into Monk as a Booker type. Shoot, even Markkanen with his fit problems is better than low ceiling.
RE: my daughter bought me an early Father's day present Â
limited edition blue suede Clyde Frazier Pumas. I had once told her that I wore Pumas when I played in school back in the day because of Clyde. She (a "sneakerhead" and pretty good PG) said they only made 73 of them.
'73 is of course the last year the Knicks WILL EVER WIN A F*ING CHAMPIONSHIP! I was 10 at the time... and it doesn't seem like just yesterday..
Dr D. I had the gold puma with black. Hated them
I switched to adidas low top superstars and light blue high top converse all stars
But I was always a huge Clyde fan
Given that Boston will be loaded at guard with fultz or Ball if they don't trade the pick. Do you think Boston would trade Avery Bradley to Knicks for Melo given that he will be due a big contract after next year. If they don't signs big name free agent, then they will have cap space for Melo with some throw ins. I still think they need a guy besides isiah to ISO at end of games. You can match up small ball with crowder and Melo interchangeable at 3/4 during stretches. Would you do that if you were Knicks and then trade courtney lee for a pick.
I have been saying to no Melo ... BUT if somehow you all can get Josh Jackson ... then a Fultz trade for Jackson and Melo would be beneficial for both teams ...
been burned by aging moron shoot first PG's. Why is Smith automatically the next Steve Francis? Why isn't he Kemba Walker? Kyle Lowry? We can't let #Knickhistory cloud our judgement on current guys.
every time someone says the Knicks dont deserve to win Â
I want to remind these people that the LA Clippers have been winning recently. The golden state warriors were an after thought for 20 years. They step in shit with Curry and made a nice move getting Green...step in shit with Thompson and Durant...now they are the benchmark franchise.
The Cavs deserve to win year after year? What exactly did they do that was so indicative of forward thinking? Oh that's right, they TRADE AWAY WIGGINS for KEVIN LOVE.
Gimme a break. The Knicks aren't so far behind everyone in terms of scouting and I have news for everyone, most NBA owners are rich fat white guys that wouldn't piss on any of us if we were on fire. Remember that. Dolan is the same as the rest except he picked a fight with the big bad NYC media.
But I'd be fine either way. I think Isaac could play 3 in the NBA and, while Willy is a nice player, I wouldn't let him keep me from drafting a guy who will likely be a much better player.
Paul George at 10. Klay at 11. Myles Turner at 11. Booker at 13. Giannis and Kawhi ~15. Jokic and Draymond in the 2nd.
If you actually look at it there will usually be a franchise-level player that goes 8 or later more often than not. It's rarely the "consensus" players you think they are though.
Fultz, Ball, Tatum, Jackson, Fox, Isaac, DSJ. I'll be disappointed with anyone not in that 7 but I will root for whomever we take. Patton still intrigues me as a shocker but that's probably too high to roll the dice.
Paul George at 10. Klay at 11. Myles Turner at 11. Booker at 13. Giannis and Kawhi ~15. Jokic and Draymond in the 2nd.
If you actually look at it there will usually be a franchise-level player that goes 8 or later more often than not. It's rarely the "consensus" players you think they are though.
So in the last 5 or so years, you've named 8 players total that were taking 7 of later. Sorry, not convinced that we're getting a game changer at 8. The odds are just overwhelmingly against it.
to even talk about it but if we are talking about tanking Doncic looks like Phil's dream "head of the triangle". Guy has that Gretzky/Nash natural "sees more than anyone else on the court/ice/field" ability. He's not a PG and he's going to be picked apart because he's not a jump out of the gym type but damn he's impressive on video.
Fultz, Ball, Tatum, Jackson, Fox, Isaac, DSJ. I'll be disappointed with anyone not in that 7 but I will root for whomever we take. Patton still intrigues me as a shocker but that's probably too high to roll the dice.
I think there are more good players than that, but the only guys I would be disappointed by are Nkitilina and Justin Jackson. I trust the Knicks' European scouting, but I would have an extremely difficult time getting excited about Frank. I wouldn't even consider Justin Jackson (nor should the Knicks), but I saw his name as a consideration in several different articles last night by beat writers.
Fultz, Ball, Tatum, Jackson, Fox, Isaac, DSJ. I'll be disappointed with anyone not in that 7 but I will root for whomever we take. Patton still intrigues me as a shocker but that's probably too high to roll the dice.
I think there are more good players than that, but the only guys I would be disappointed by are Nkitilina and Justin Jackson. I trust the Knicks' European scouting, but I would have an extremely difficult time getting excited about Frank. I wouldn't even consider Justin Jackson (nor should the Knicks), but I saw his name as a consideration in several different articles last night by beat writers.
I can't imagine the Knicks would really take Justin Jackson at 8. If they really did that then they are destined to suck for a very long time. Even those who like him acknowledge his limited upside. Markkanen simply isn't a good fit, Monk (not a fan for us for reasons I've laid out previously). I guess I'd have to take Monk or Frenhy if "my 7" were off the board but I'd also likely look more closely at guys like Collins or Patton vs. those 2.
been burned by aging moron shoot first PG's. Why is Smith automatically the next Steve Francis? Why isn't he Kemba Walker? Kyle Lowry? We can't let #Knickhistory cloud our judgement on current guys.
Such an important point. Two guys with similar toolboxes are not the same player necessarily.
The team with the worst record has won the lottery Â
want to believe Justin Jackson is this years Trey Lyles. He's going to go far too high to "if they add a second pick" and he'd be a "throw the remote" at 8. A Phil Jackson special (which luckily he's yet to actually do despite the rumors every year).
Paul George at 10. Klay at 11. Myles Turner at 11. Booker at 13. Giannis and Kawhi ~15. Jokic and Draymond in the 2nd.
If you actually look at it there will usually be a franchise-level player that goes 8 or later more often than not. It's rarely the "consensus" players you think they are though.
So in the last 5 or so years, you've named 8 players total that were taking 7 of later. Sorry, not convinced that we're getting a game changer at 8. The odds are just overwhelmingly against it.
Well obviously the odds aren't in favor. Just saying it happens virtually every year. We don't get a break with the lottery balls but maybe we catch one with a sleeper?
You'll have the first and eighth picks in this year's draft, and probably two top five picks in next year's draft, plus Hernangomez still at center and whatever draft picks you'd get for Melo, Lee, O'Quinn, etc. I love KP, but that would be a dream scenario. We'd be contending for a decade.
line when it comes to DSJ his wingspan IS an issue in terms of defensive upside but defense absolutely can be coached up/improved. Effort and fundamentals can turn "any" superior athlete into at least an average defender. He's unlikely to be all-NBA first team defensively but these kids don't need to do a whole lot defensively in HS when they are freakazoid athletes and then he got tossed into a terrible situation. I've never met the kid, if he's a poor interview etc but linked below is Smith talking and comes off as a decent human being to me. Link - ( New Window )
come into the league with "a desire to play defense"? Anthony Davis?
This can't be a serious question. You're questioning the desire of literally every 18 year old of wanting to play defense?
I'm saying most 18 year olds have the flaw of lapsing or giving up on defense for stretches. Hell every top pick in this draft except maybe Jackson has that flaw. Fultz played jack shit for defense. Ball checked out often. Fox was better than those 2 but he wasn't keyed in 100% of the time on the defensive end either.
the odds are against getting a game changer at all Â
Most years, there are maybe one or two of those, and often there are better players taken after the top 5. Go back a few years and look at the top 5s:
2009 - #1 Griffin, #2 Thabeet, #3 Harden, #4 Evans, #5 Rubio. Curry, of course, was #7
2010 - #1 Wall, #2 Turner, #3 Favors, #4 Johnson, #5 Cousins. Monroe at 7, Hayward at 9, and George at 10 were all much better than 2-4.
2011 - #1 Irving, #2 Williams, #3 Kanter, #4 Thompson, #5 Valanciunas. Best players in the draft by a mile, outside of Kyrie, were Kemba at 9 and Kawhi at 15.
2012 - #1 Davis, #2 MK-G, #3 Beal, #4 Waiters, #5 Robinson. Lousy draft overall. Lillard at 6, Draymond in the second round.
2013 - #1 Bennett, #2 Oladipo, #3 Porter, #4 Zeller, #5 Len. Woof. Best players in that one were Giannis at 15 and Gobert at 26.
Is he a sure thing? Hell no, but to talk about red flags because he played lazy defense as a teenager is a bit much.
70% of the probable top 10 selections played lazy defense. I think Smith is getting the opposite of "East coast bias". Because people watch so many ACC games, he's getting killed for stuff while other guys are getting passes for the same things (especially Fultz).
I don't even want to talk about Smith because I don't want to be disappointed when the Knicks bypass him.
I get it that Fultz is a better draft prospect, but I don't think there's a huge gap between them. And what gap does exist is due to Fultz being a bit bigger and a better shooter. Smith can improve his shooting. Neither one made their team a winner, and neither one played much defense. Hell, defense is practically illegal in the Pac 12.
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shoot first with an iffy defensive motor is 100% a personality issue.
We get it, Jon. You love the high floor low-ceiling French guy. Smith was a shoot-first player on NC State out of necessity - who the hell else would you want taking the shots on that team? Terry Henderson? Napoleon DynamiteMaverick Rowan? Hell, like Tjarks said, NC State probably would have been better off if Smith actually HAD played as selfishly as you're accusing him of.
Seems like a strange point to attack me on.
I do like frank but that's irrelevant to my opinion of DSJ.
I've been burned enough times by score first PGs who only defend when they want to and are streaky shooters.
"Smith is a nightmare in the open court, changing gears powerfully and being absolutely fearless slashing right to the front of the rim, where he can finish emphatically above the rim, or acrobatically off the glass. He has an excellent first step from a stand-still as well, getting low to the ground, and will often split ball-screens impressively, with a tight handle, excellent footwork, and the ability to take contact at the rim. Smith wasn't especially efficient from the field (50% 2P%), but made up for that at the college level with his ability to get to the free throw line at a strong clip, a product of his aggressiveness with the ball, and willingness to drive into the teeth of the defense to draw fouls. In the half-court, Smith shows promise with his first step, array of fancy ball-handling maneuvers, and an innate ability to operate at different speeds. He wasn't in an ideal situation at N.C. State, being surrounded by three non-shooters almost at all times, in traditional two-big men lineups that clogged the paint and made his team easy to game-plan against. Nevertheless, he posted a solid 6.8 assists per-40 pace adjusted, the fourth best rate in our Top-100, as he is capable of creating space, surveying the floor and passing the ball with either hand out of pick and roll situations, sometimes in very impressive fashion. - Source: http://www.draftexpress.com/article/dennis-smith-nba-draft-scouting-report-and-video-analysis-5836/ ©DraftExpress"
DSJ + KP + Willy... do it up.
Smith unquestionably had the higher ceiling.
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Not one instance of even a little lottery luck in over 30 years. Not. Once.
The NBA can eat a dick. I hate it. Love the knicks hate the league.
Did the league decide to play to win in a meaningless final game against the Sixers in the final game of the year? The Knicks can't even tank properly. Don't blame the league for that.
Right. Let's kill the Knicks for playing hard in a PRO NBA game. Killing the Knicks for playing hard in a game. That's where we are now? Is that it?
The mere fact we are even debating that garbage speaks to how awful the NBA truly is. The knicks did nothing wrong down the stretch. Nothing. They even "rested" players more often than not. You can't throw games. You just can't. Throwing a game literally destroys the product. It damages the credibility of the game. The Knicks lost a lot of games down the stretch. They win one or two and fans sit here and actually say the words "the knicks don't deserve a good lottery pick because they won a game in March"
think that through for a second.
Fuck the NBA. It's a garbage league.
Sorry. But that's the truth friends.
Another stupid comment. Yes. The most loyal fans in America deserve to suck because of a flawed lottery system. Yes!
Frenchy would be a nice pick if they already had another elite player to go with Porzingis. They don't, and Frank isn't that guy.
I want the guy who is going to stick in the league and be a valuable contributor for many years. You aren't getting a franchise savior at no. 8.
trade lee or koq to get back in first get justin jackson unc...
dwayne bacon in the 2nd, euro stash with the late 2nd...
smith or frank, bacon, jackson kp willy, fun young team to root for
How many other instances can you name?
Smith unquestionably had the higher ceiling.
Greg said he was the "high floor low-ceiling French guy". You are in agreement.
I dont have an opinion of him but if he's really a low ceiling guy, Im a pass. Get lucky finding role players elsewhere. At 8 you have a shot at someone with a good ceiling. Fultz, Ball, Jackson, Tatum, Smith, Isaac, Fox = 7 guys I'd be happy with, and I could be talked into Monk as a Booker type. Shoot, even Markkanen with his fit problems is better than low ceiling.
'73 is of course the last year the Knicks WILL EVER WIN A F*ING CHAMPIONSHIP! I was 10 at the time... and it doesn't seem like just yesterday..
Dr D. I had the gold puma with black. Hated them
I switched to adidas low top superstars and light blue high top converse all stars
But I was always a huge Clyde fan
I have been saying to no Melo ... BUT if somehow you all can get Josh Jackson ... then a Fultz trade for Jackson and Melo would be beneficial for both teams ...
The Cavs deserve to win year after year? What exactly did they do that was so indicative of forward thinking? Oh that's right, they TRADE AWAY WIGGINS for KEVIN LOVE.
Gimme a break. The Knicks aren't so far behind everyone in terms of scouting and I have news for everyone, most NBA owners are rich fat white guys that wouldn't piss on any of us if we were on fire. Remember that. Dolan is the same as the rest except he picked a fight with the big bad NYC media.
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.
How many other instances can you name?
Paul George at 10. Klay at 11. Myles Turner at 11. Booker at 13. Giannis and Kawhi ~15. Jokic and Draymond in the 2nd.
If you actually look at it there will usually be a franchise-level player that goes 8 or later more often than not. It's rarely the "consensus" players you think they are though.
Fultz, Ball, Tatum, Jackson, Fox, Isaac, DSJ. I'll be disappointed with anyone not in that 7 but I will root for whomever we take. Patton still intrigues me as a shocker but that's probably too high to roll the dice.
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In comment 13473849 Greg from LI said:
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.
How many other instances can you name?
Paul George at 10. Klay at 11. Myles Turner at 11. Booker at 13. Giannis and Kawhi ~15. Jokic and Draymond in the 2nd.
If you actually look at it there will usually be a franchise-level player that goes 8 or later more often than not. It's rarely the "consensus" players you think they are though.
So in the last 5 or so years, you've named 8 players total that were taking 7 of later. Sorry, not convinced that we're getting a game changer at 8. The odds are just overwhelmingly against it.
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In comment 13473776 Vin R said:
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(sarcasm off)
I feel bad for the DC franchise. Who you rooting for these days Vin? Golden State? Cleveland?
New York Giants & Yankees
Weren't you a Pistons fan like the other year?
Would you trade Porzingis to Boston for the Nets picks this year AND next year?
I wouldn't do it for just this year's pick, but I might do it for both.
Forgive the hypothetical amidst legitimate conversation...
Fultz, Ball, Tatum, Jackson, Fox, Isaac, DSJ. I'll be disappointed with anyone not in that 7 but I will root for whomever we take. Patton still intrigues me as a shocker but that's probably too high to roll the dice.
I think there are more good players than that, but the only guys I would be disappointed by are Nkitilina and Justin Jackson. I trust the Knicks' European scouting, but I would have an extremely difficult time getting excited about Frank. I wouldn't even consider Justin Jackson (nor should the Knicks), but I saw his name as a consideration in several different articles last night by beat writers.
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be happy with one of
Fultz, Ball, Tatum, Jackson, Fox, Isaac, DSJ. I'll be disappointed with anyone not in that 7 but I will root for whomever we take. Patton still intrigues me as a shocker but that's probably too high to roll the dice.
I think there are more good players than that, but the only guys I would be disappointed by are Nkitilina and Justin Jackson. I trust the Knicks' European scouting, but I would have an extremely difficult time getting excited about Frank. I wouldn't even consider Justin Jackson (nor should the Knicks), but I saw his name as a consideration in several different articles last night by beat writers.
I can't imagine the Knicks would really take Justin Jackson at 8. If they really did that then they are destined to suck for a very long time. Even those who like him acknowledge his limited upside. Markkanen simply isn't a good fit, Monk (not a fan for us for reasons I've laid out previously). I guess I'd have to take Monk or Frenhy if "my 7" were off the board but I'd also likely look more closely at guys like Collins or Patton vs. those 2.
Such an important point. Two guys with similar toolboxes are not the same player necessarily.
But when there are doubts about his motor and desire to play defense before he even steps on an NBA floor, that's a major red flag.
Would you trade Porzingis to Boston for the Nets picks this year AND next year?
I wouldn't do it for just this year's pick, but I might do it for both.
Forgive the hypothetical amidst legitimate conversation...
Almost certainly.
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In comment 13473853 Jon in NYC said:
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In comment 13473849 Greg from LI said:
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.
How many other instances can you name?
Paul George at 10. Klay at 11. Myles Turner at 11. Booker at 13. Giannis and Kawhi ~15. Jokic and Draymond in the 2nd.
If you actually look at it there will usually be a franchise-level player that goes 8 or later more often than not. It's rarely the "consensus" players you think they are though.
So in the last 5 or so years, you've named 8 players total that were taking 7 of later. Sorry, not convinced that we're getting a game changer at 8. The odds are just overwhelmingly against it.
Well obviously the odds aren't in favor. Just saying it happens virtually every year. We don't get a break with the lottery balls but maybe we catch one with a sleeper?
Would you trade Porzingis to Boston for the Nets picks this year AND next year?
I wouldn't do it for just this year's pick, but I might do it for both.
Forgive the hypothetical amidst legitimate conversation...
One of my friends asked me this last night, I would. Even this year's pick + brown would be in consideration, would rather have both picks though.
This can't be a serious question. You're questioning the desire of literally every 18 year old of wanting to play defense?
Link - ( New Window )
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come into the league with "a desire to play defense"? Anthony Davis?
This can't be a serious question. You're questioning the desire of literally every 18 year old of wanting to play defense?
I'm saying most 18 year olds have the flaw of lapsing or giving up on defense for stretches. Hell every top pick in this draft except maybe Jackson has that flaw. Fultz played jack shit for defense. Ball checked out often. Fox was better than those 2 but he wasn't keyed in 100% of the time on the defensive end either.
2009 - #1 Griffin, #2 Thabeet, #3 Harden, #4 Evans, #5 Rubio. Curry, of course, was #7
2010 - #1 Wall, #2 Turner, #3 Favors, #4 Johnson, #5 Cousins. Monroe at 7, Hayward at 9, and George at 10 were all much better than 2-4.
2011 - #1 Irving, #2 Williams, #3 Kanter, #4 Thompson, #5 Valanciunas. Best players in the draft by a mile, outside of Kyrie, were Kemba at 9 and Kawhi at 15.
2012 - #1 Davis, #2 MK-G, #3 Beal, #4 Waiters, #5 Robinson. Lousy draft overall. Lillard at 6, Draymond in the second round.
2013 - #1 Bennett, #2 Oladipo, #3 Porter, #4 Zeller, #5 Len. Woof. Best players in that one were Giannis at 15 and Gobert at 26.
lakers: ball
sixers: jackson
suns : tatum
kings: fox
magic: isaac
twolves: markannen
knicks: smith or frenchy
70% of the probable top 10 selections played lazy defense. I think Smith is getting the opposite of "East coast bias". Because people watch so many ACC games, he's getting killed for stuff while other guys are getting passes for the same things (especially Fultz).
I don't even want to talk about Smith because I don't want to be disappointed when the Knicks bypass him.