Good article, mainly about early QB picks
Is it a pipedream to let young QB's learn from sitting on the bench the way the NFL is run today.
Do they actually become a better QB by learning from sitting behind the starting QB?
OR is learning under
fire the only way in todays NFL because there is so little practice time?
Davis Webb will sit behind Eli for at least three years and hopefully Webb will be able to
spin a little magic when it is his time.
IMO Davis will sit his whole rookie year.
2018 [2nd half of season] if Giants are up 2 scores late in the game he may play.
2019 if Giants are up 2 scores or down 2 scores he may play. Best way to see if he's got it and to give him some playing time for if he takes over in 2020.
Still think Eli is the starter in 2020 and retires after that season.
Because we have a Eli, this is the best way for Davis Webb to learn; but I do think the article makes a good point about early round QB picks.
What is your take.
Eli gets a good [but short] mention in the article.
As for later round picks this was mentioned:
"There were also the unique cases of Tony Romo and Tom Brady, guys who were brought in to fill the back of the roster and wound up developing well enough to become quality starters once they took the field. (Incidentally, both permanently replaced Drew Bledsoe.)"
.
From DD's list.
Why You Can’t Let Young QBs Learn from the Bench - (
New Window )
I think lots of people think this is Nassib all over again. I'd argue it's not even close to that. We took Nassib when Eli was still in his prime, and the team was awful.
size: check
mobility: check
arm: check
work ethic: check
he literally has every attribute you want in a QB - and landed in a position to where he can take the time to work on his "weaknesses".
Eli did not play well last year. there is a reason the head coach / GM aggressively scouted QBs this year, were rumored to target mahomes, and snagged Webb in the 3rd.
a "wasted pick" would've been reaching for an OL just to appease BBI - when in reality they landed a cost controlled talented backup QB and signed undrafted OL with as much potential as the guys available at the time Webb was selected.
3rd down is a dice roll to begin with ... bisnowaty / wheeler / dunker aren't that far off from OL they could've selected instead of Webb ... no LB was making a day 1 impact and, while a deep CB draft, this team already has an elite trio.
I love this pick the more I read about him. He's basically a cutler/stafford arm talent with Eli's work ethic and plenty of time to learn behind a class act. this is a perfect situation for Webb, and mcadoo's system is tailored to his strengths. a lot of things are in place for this to work out. will it? who knows? theres also no guarantee with any QB in any round - I'm just glad they paid a 3rd round price instead of those ridiculous 1st round reaches. Webb could very well be the top QB out of this class, he just wasn't going to be a "quick fix" so he fell.
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/nfl-executive-says-cals-davis-webb-will-be-the-best-qb-in-2017-draft-class/
I disagree that he will play if the Giants go up or down by two scores. How many times were the Giants down by more than that at the end of games and Eli was still in there? I think we'll know if Webb can play during the preseason. Or probably more telling, if he can't play. Nassib couldn't move the team against second and third stringers. That said a lot.
if we see Webb before 2020, I will be shocked.
Agreed. If all stays the same with Eli as it has his entire career, I would much rather of had a CB in rd 3 or even best players available other than a QB. I'd love to be wrong about Webb, but if you are trying to make a run at it the next 2-3 years with Eli, then you obtain guys that can help you in those years IMO.
Apparently they had him rated as the second rounder and assumed they had no chance of him falling to them, that he would be gone before they picked in round 2, possibly even end of the first round. Based on that they spent their time with the prospects they expected as more likely to be available to them.
3 very good ones that play on the field at the same time for most of the game. If one guys gets the injury bug, then we're down to using guys like Wade and it becomes an issue. Two guys get hurt and your talking about a major weakness. Watching shotty CB play while Webb sits there not contributing anything for the next few years is where it can feel like you wasted a chance to round out the roster for a SB run. Not saying its a definite, but you can never have enough CB's the way offenses are designed now and how often guys get injured.
size: check
mobility: check
arm: check
work ethic: check
he literally has every attribute you want in a QB - and landed in a position to where he can take the time to work on his "weaknesses".
Eli did not play well last year. there is a reason the head coach / GM aggressively scouted QBs this year, were rumored to target mahomes, and snagged Webb in the 3rd.
a "wasted pick" would've been reaching for an OL just to appease BBI - when in reality they landed a cost controlled talented backup QB and signed undrafted OL with as much potential as the guys available at the time Webb was selected.
Your right in that I don't believe it was a "wasted pick", but I think they could have added quality depth at positions that could benefit them in the next 3 years. There were some solid DB names that could have been had and made contributions this year and beyond. I didn't hate the pick and I'm on the this kids bandwagon because I trust the FO saw something and believe he can be the guy after Eli.
Does he have the talent; we will all know in a couple of years.
Was going to post something similar (if I understand you correctly). I think any QB who is honest will tell you they don't want to spend their time on the bench watching. They want to be in there getting real-time reps. And today's NFL is more QB-friendly than it ever has been. Rookie QB's come into the league all the time now and have early success.
This year seemed like it was a good time to start the process. I don't know anything about Webb but Eli is at the tail end of his career and 2-3 years is all we will probably get. If he doesn't show he has it this season we can always look at next season and get one from what I have heard should be a strong crop. If Eli goes down this year especially early there is a good chance we would be in line for a top 10 pick. But when Eli is done we need to have a guy in place. Teams without QBs are perennially in the bottom of the league. I dont want to go back to the Dave Brown era.
By all accounts he has everything you want in a player except experience playing against top flight opponents in an NFL-style offense. All the tools and talents are there. He just needs to develop in an NFL system for a while to learn to play the NFL game.
Behind Eli, he will get the chance to learn. Personally, I like the pick a lot. I'm hardly an expert, but I like it.
Would I have done it? Nope. I would have drafted a DB. But I'm not getting paid to make those calls.
The 3rd round is about right. 1st or 2nd round should mean you expect the QB to start soon. 4th through 7th round is a shot in the dark with no expectation of a starter.
As others have stated, a 3rd rounder whose biggest knock is he needs more time to develop his drop back / pocket skills and has most/all the other skills is a fair "gamble" IMHO.
And if the Giants happen to make a deep playoff run this year (as we're all hoping) its doubtful any of these QBs will be there when they pick next year.
And if the Giants happen to make a deep playoff run this year (as we're all hoping) its doubtful any of these QBs will be there when they pick next year.
Who's going to replace one of them now if, God forbid, something happens to them? A UDFA or a journeyman on his 4th team in 5 years. So, yeah, I would have preferred to have someone with a little more upside in the pipeline. And that's just CBs. Personally, I would have drafted another Safety (like John Johnson).
Oh wait..... skip that line of thought.
We don't know how many years Eli has left. He could decide to retire, he could quickly decline, he could suffer a catastrophic injury (knock on wood). Any good team needs to have a backup plan, especially at QB. Look around the league - most successful teams are perpetually developing a QB even if they have a veteran franchise QB in place.
As to the idea that next year's class is much better, that's irrelevant (or more to the point, it's exactly why the Giants shouldn't have waited). Those potential franchise QBs next year will likely all be gone before the Giants pick in the first round, unless the Giants wind up finishing much worse than we expect (in which case, it's likely that one of the negative Eli scenarios mentioned above may have occurred).
If this year taught us anything, it's that it is nearly impossible to deflate the value of QBs in the draft; simply having a deep and talented class of QBs does not ensure that one will fall to a pick late in the first round. And even then, would you rather use a first round pick on a player that did slide for whatever reason (again, if the Giants are picking in the bottom third of the draft, the only way that a franchise QB prospect is falling to them is if that guy has some sort of red flag attached to him), or have a physically talented QB in the pipeline already with one year under his belt AND have a first round pick to utilize on the BPA?
Instead, the Giants decided that the better option would be to use a 3rd rounder this year on a guy who they obviously felt had the physical skills but required some additional development. A year of NFL coaching (compared to a year of college coaching for next year's draftees) gives Webb a relative advantage in that area, and he becomes a known quantity that much sooner (it's worth always remembering that even next year's supposedly elite QB class comes with no guarantees). If Webb is slow/unable to develop as the team hopes, the Giants will (hopefully) be able to identify that relatively quickly and can continue to evaluate alternatives in future years. They are, after all, going to have to unearth a successor to Eli at some point.
If Webb becomes a very good starting NFL QB and ultimately succeeds Eli (or becomes trade bait down the line), it will have proven to be an excellent pick. If he ends up merely being an adequate NFL backup for his rookie contract, it will still be an acceptable use of the pick (because it will represent an efficient allocation of cap resources and roster construction). If he ends up being a failure, it will have been a wasted pick, but players at any position in any round can end up being a failure and thus a wasted pick. There is nothing inherently wasteful about selecting a QB prospect in the middle of the draft relative to any other position.
With the amount that the Giants pay Eli, they have to be careful with the way they allocate their cap resources to the remainder of the QB position group. That means they can either take washed-up journeymen (Johnson) or reclamation projects (Smith), or they can try to develop their own (Webb). And with Eli nearing the end of his career (most likely, anyway), it makes sense to at least give themselves the opportunity to pursue the third option, as it is the most likely of the the three to provide a successor if/when necessary.
I guess the fuss is the way our defense fell apart when DRC was hurt in the Green Bay game.
I'm all about work ethic and Webb has it in spades so I really do like this kid allot. I just think this team is not in a position to waste a pick on a worthless QB when we have much more important positions to fill.
1) CB depth is a concern, but we have great quality at the top
2) Webb was a good pick
I'm all about work ethic and Webb has it in spades so I really do like this kid allot. I just think this team is not in a position to waste a pick on a worthless QB when we have much more important positions to fill.
Your logic is circular. You hate the pick because you've deemed it wasteful; it's only wasteful for the reasons why you've decided to hate it. There's no guarantee that Eli starts for at least three more years. He could choose to walk away due to preference, injury or ineffectiveness at any point during that time.
And it's odd to say you like the kid a lot, but also call him worthless. As for "more important positions to fill," pretty much every 3rd round pick is likely to be developmental to some degree. Which do you think offers the greatest potential payoff?
It's not binary; Webb can potentially offer value even though he will not be an immediate starter. He may never become the successor to Eli and could still provide value. He could be an affordable and talented backup QB for the Giants, which allows them to balance their cap load for that position group, which will let them potentially add or retain another player in future years. He could flash talent in spot duty, preseason or an injury fill-in (just because Eli has never missed a game doesn't mean he will never miss a game going forward) and become trade bait. He could offer a fresh perspective in QB meetings that may help advance the offense in general (might be a stretch, but at least in my job, some of the best suggestions come from new hires). He could provide a talented scout team QB to keep the defense as prepared as possible.
It's not as simple as just preferring a DB or [insert position here]; that's not the optimal way to assemble a roster. I agree that the Giants need to address their secondary depth and IMO, they will. And they'll do it in the way that makes the most sense for a contender with an aging QB - with a veteran. Meanwhile, they'll also have the luxury of doing something else a contender with an aging QB should do: plan for the future.
Quote:
Jerry blamed this pick on MacAdoo saying Mac really wanted him but I think it's a mistake to waste a decent pick on QB no matter how good considering Eli should start for at least 3 more years.
I'm all about work ethic and Webb has it in spades so I really do like this kid allot. I just think this team is not in a position to waste a pick on a worthless QB when we have much more important positions to fill.
Your logic is circular. You hate the pick because you've deemed it wasteful; it's only wasteful for the reasons why you've decided to hate it. There's no guarantee that Eli starts for at least three more years. He could choose to walk away due to preference, injury or ineffectiveness at any point during that time.
And it's odd to say you like the kid a lot, but also call him worthless. As for "more important positions to fill," pretty much every 3rd round pick is likely to be developmental to some degree. Which do you think offers the greatest potential payoff?
It's not binary; Webb can potentially offer value even though he will not be an immediate starter. He may never become the successor to Eli and could still provide value. He could be an affordable and talented backup QB for the Giants, which allows them to balance their cap load for that position group, which will let them potentially add or retain another player in future years. He could flash talent in spot duty, preseason or an injury fill-in (just because Eli has never missed a game doesn't mean he will never miss a game going forward) and become trade bait. He could offer a fresh perspective in QB meetings that may help advance the offense in general (might be a stretch, but at least in my job, some of the best suggestions come from new hires). He could provide a talented scout team QB to keep the defense as prepared as possible.
It's not as simple as just preferring a DB or [insert position here]; that's not the optimal way to assemble a roster. I agree that the Giants need to address their secondary depth and IMO, they will. And they'll do it in the way that makes the most sense for a contender with an aging QB - with a veteran. Meanwhile, they'll also have the luxury of doing something else a contender with an aging QB should do: plan for the future.
Just a few issues:
1. I don't think it's realistic to think Eli will walk away in the near future unless of a serious injury and in that case....
2. Do you seriously think they will use Webb as the number
2 backup this year?
3. I don't mean to say that Web is worthless but certainly I think wasting a third rounder on a QB when you don't need one is worthless.
4. I've seen plenty of starters from round 3 over the years.
5. Look at what a waste the Nassib pick was. Same thing here because....
6. I seriously doubt Webb is Eli's replacement.
7. What happens in the next two years if a better QB than Webb falls to us in the draft? Reece won't be able to resist going for him.
8. I'll repeat - the need for other more critical needs than a QB.
And for the record you can like the player and not like the pick. I love OBJ but hated that pick at the time. Sometimes they work out and sometimes they don't. We all have our opinions and because that is all they are, they can neither be right or wrong.
Oh wait..... skip that line of thought.
Wouldn't the Cowboys have a different take on their QB situation since Romo was hurt every year and never won in the playoffs compared to Manning never missing a game.
In comment 13474165 nicky43 said:
1. I don't think it's realistic to think Eli will walk away in the near future unless of a serious injury and in that case....
Eli is 36 and has three years left on his contract. Depending on your definition of "near future," he's more likely than not to walk away at the end of his contract (and perhaps sooner if circumstances intervene). Regardless, the Giants don't have the luxury of approaching it like a fan; they have to be prepared with a succession plan.
2. Do you seriously think they will use Webb as the number 2 backup this year?
I think Webb signed a four-year contract. Unless they were to acquire a franchise QB prospect on the level that Eli was coming out of college, they would carry three QBs in the rookie year of any QB prospect. It would take an incredibly bad season for the Giants to acquire that level of prospect, or a wasted season after Eli's departure. It's a cost of doing business as part of a succession plan. The alternative is the Dave Brown/Kent Graham era. After his rookie season, I absolutely expect Webb to be the sole backup (and wouldn't necessarily rule it out for this season, although I agree it's highly unlikely).
3. I don't mean to say that Web is worthless but certainly I think wasting a third rounder on a QB when you don't need one is worthless.
You DID say he was worthless. And you have decided that they don't need one. They clearly feel otherwise. With all due respect, I'll trust their judgment over yours.
4. I've seen plenty of starters from round 3 over the years.
Go ahead and rattle off the recent third round picks that the Giants have made that became starters. Tuck and Manningham. That's the whole list in this millennium.
5. Look at what a waste the Nassib pick was. Same thing here because....
First of all, the Nassib pick was made when Eli was only 32 - still very much in the prime of his career. Nassib was never even considered to be a successor; he was simply a safety net. And I'd argue that Nassib wasn't a waste at all - he filled exactly the role they had set out for him. Yes, he wound up seemingly regressing, but that's not an indictment of taking a QB; that's a knock on Nassib himself as a player. And you can't judge the pick in retrospect because of the fact that he never wound up needing to play - do you have any idea how statistically unlikely Eli's consecutive game streak is?
Where many knock the Nassib pick (rightfully so, perhaps) is that the Giants traded up to get him. But the pick of a QB in general was justifiable even then, other than the trade up. Again, Eli gets paid a ton of money. The only way to build a solid roster in spite of that is to go cheap on the rest of the QB group. Draft picks are cheaper than free agents (typically), and can often have greater developmental upside. Not every pick will hit, but that doesn't diminish the validity of the pick itself.
6. I seriously doubt Webb is Eli's replacement.
Clearly. You've made that fairly obvious with your use of "blamed," "waste," and "worthless." Regardless, teams need to have a succession plan, especially at QB, and it's not wise for them to simply expect that they'll just draft the successor once the incumbent is done.
7. What happens in the next two years if a better QB than Webb falls to us in the draft? Reece won't be able to resist going for him.
First, Reese. Second, "better," by definition, is a relative term. If Webb is progressing on or ahead of schedule, it would be unlikely that a "better" QB prospect falls to the Giants without some red flag of his own attached to him. Unless, of course, the Giants have an unexpectedly bad season, which might be due to an Eli injury or ineffectiveness - as long as you're playing the hypothetical fiction game, I can too.
8. I'll repeat - the need for other more critical needs than a QB.
Definitely, repeat.
And for the record you can like the player and not like the pick. I love OBJ but hated that pick at the time. Sometimes they work out and sometimes they don't. We all have our opinions and because that is all they are, they can neither be right or wrong.
Look, I get it. I thought the Petitgout pick was poor value at the time, even though he wound up being a solid player. But what you're arguing isn't necessarily a matter simply of opinion; you seem to be fundamentally opposed to a succession plan for a 36 year old QB with three years left on his contract. I think it's reckless to let the situation sit. Maybe one more year, tops. But why would next year be any different in terms of utilizing a draft pick on a QB that could be used on a different position?
If anything, with each successive year that passes as we approach the end of Eli's current contract, the urgency increases and the likelihood of an even higher draft pick being used in the search for Eli's potential successor increases along with it. What would you be saying in a year if the Giants used their second round pick on a QB instead of a different position? Or if, as they enter Eli's final season, they use their first rounder on a QB instead of a much-needed reinforcement elsewhere on the roster for what could be Eli's last run?
Quote:
They have Romo and yet drafted Dak in the 3rd round. Why? Romo is the starter and will be there for YEARS to come. Prescott is just going to ride the pine for a long time.
Oh wait..... skip that line of thought.
Wouldn't the Cowboys have a different take on their QB situation since Romo was hurt every year and never won in the playoffs compared to Manning never missing a game.
What about the Patriots using a 2nd and a 3rd on Garropolo and Brissett? Brady's perfectly fine. It's irresponsible to just ignore the QB position altogether.
If Eli feels like playing for 5 more years nobody in the front office is going to stop him. Loyal to a fault.
Here is what I would do...
1. Any game where it is garbage time, you let him in the game. Even if you know you are just going to hand the ball off.
2. If (God forbid) we are mathematically eliminated from the playoffs, then Webb becomes the starter IMO. Why not?
3. If at the end of the season we have our playoff position solidified with no advantage to winning the last game or two, then let Webb play then too.
If Eli feels like playing for 5 more years nobody in the front office is going to stop him. Loyal to a fault.
I don't know how you could think this with a straight face when a) we're not that far from watching Tom Coughlin of all people get pushed out the door, and B) a first-year head coach does not ever have a problem with pointing out Eli's mistakes.
Your theory's fiction.
Whether Webb is the guy or not remains to be seen ... But this "Eli can play forever" narrative is ridiculous. He's fading, it happens.
There's a reason Reese/Mcadoo looked into QBs this year so diligently ... not to mention the public criticism.
But yeah, lets keep pretending Eli is gonna play into his 40s - and play well
The arm and legs of Eli were not the same last season. Not too detriment of the team but clearly lesser than before...
Now, no way Webb is this year's #2 QB over Geno Smith. Just no way given his college play and raw skills. But he has "potential" including what looks to be a mature mindset and leadership skills. Only time will tell, but 2017 will be about watching & learning.
Now, no way Webb is this year's #2 QB over Geno Smith. Just no way given his college play and raw skills. But he has "potential" including what looks to be a mature mindset and leadership skills. Only time will tell, but 2017 will be about watching & learning.
Ah, David Webb. Someday, he may share the backfield with Wayne Gellman or Orleans Dwarka. That backfield definitely has "potential."
JohnB : 5/17/2017 1:10 pm : link : reply
They have Romo and yet drafted Dak in the 3rd round. Why? Romo is the starter and will be there for YEARS to come. Prescott is just going to ride the pine for a long time.
Oh wait..... skip that line of thought.
Nah, the Cowboys didn't need a qb.....Romo wasn't one hit away from retirement....Seriously? They absolutely needed a qb.....they needed a rookie to start, with their CAP problems....and with an OL that resembled the great wall of China, a rookie qb, with a good running game, was the answer....
AS for the Giants? I think it was a mistake......this team is in, win now mode.....a DB/S should have been drafted.....Yes we have 3 good corners, but no depth if one goes down(all three missed playing time last season), and outside of Collins, we have nothing at either S position.... Webb will cost this team a roster spot if the Giants have to carry 3 qb's.....
I think Eli has a much better year this year if the offense stays healthy BUT I also am not so sure he has more than 2 years left in him of acceptable play. I'm just not sure....
Andre Brown was our leading rusher in both attempts and yards with a whopping 3.5 YPC due to the David Wilson injury
Myers and Pascoe stunk (neither was able to help take coverage off Cruz/Nicks)
Eli sacked 39 times (most of his career by a huge margin)
28th in total offense
If Eli has another down year in 2017 I think we can start talking about his final years here, but I'll need to see that happen first. Until then Webb is in a really nice position to learn for a couple of years with zero pressure and clean up a lot of what made him a 3rd round pick.
Webb was a 1st/2nd round grade who we got in the late 3rd. He is just as good a prospect as the higher taken players, and we didn't mortgage the future to get him.
Lets see how he does, but I don't think its a stretch to say he could the #2 QB on the Giants by midseason. I don't know when Geno became any good, he couldn't make the backup to the Jets.