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PFF: Eli gets ball out much quicker since Mac's arrival

gidiefor : Mod : 5/17/2017 12:22 pm
Quote:
Pro Football Focus& #8207; @PFF

Eli Manning has gotten the ball out of his hand much quicker since the arrival of Ben McAdoo.


% of dropbacks with pass attempts in 2.5 seconds or less:

2012 - 2016 average 53.7%

2012 - 48%
2013 - 46.%
2014 - 57.4%
2015 - 61.2%
2016 - 63.9%


% of dropbacks with pass attempts in 2.5 seconds or less - ( New Window )
I'm sure his  
LawrenceTaylor56 : 5/17/2017 12:23 pm : link
trust in the O-Line also attributes to him getting rid of the ball quicker.
It's by design  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/17/2017 12:28 pm : link
This was something talked about in 2013 when Mac took over the offense.
Not very insightful. That is the purpose of the WC offense  
Ivan15 : 5/17/2017 12:30 pm : link
.
.  
arcarsenal : 5/17/2017 12:39 pm : link
Well, yeah... that's kind of what happens when you transition from an offense that utilizes more long-developing routes with 5 and 7 step drops to one that relies more on shorter passes.
.  
Go Terps : 5/17/2017 12:39 pm : link
This is part of the reason I question whether Webb (or Mahomes for that matter) made sense for this team when there were more refined (though admittedly less physically talented) passers in this draft.

I would think that in McAdoo's offense, where timing is so important, a premium should be put on footwork and quality throwing mechanics. Even with Eli we've seen things go to shit when his mechanics are off.
Gee, so since Gilbride's complex, multi-read offense  
SHO'NUFF : 5/17/2017 12:42 pm : link
to McAdoo's quick strike WC offense, Eli has been getting the ball out quicker? Next, you're gonna tell me the Earth is round.
no shit!! REALLY???  
Victor in CT : 5/17/2017 12:45 pm : link
stunning. A deep drop, look down field, multiple read offense took longer for plays to develop.

Compounded by self preservation with the shit OL
Eli gets the ball out much quicker ever since he had no OL  
Vanzetti : 5/17/2017 12:56 pm : link
I think it is a survival instinct.
Quite a revelation  
LCtheINTMachine : 5/17/2017 12:57 pm : link
That a high-percentage west coast offense causes the QB to get rid of the ball quicker. PFF must have studied loads of film to come up with that.
RE: It's by design  
est1986 : 5/17/2017 12:57 pm : link
In comment 13474045 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
This was something talked about in 2013 when Mac took over the offense.


Bullshit. Every QB wants to get rid of it quick to avoid the pass rush, Eli was maybe the least sacked QB in the NFL and that does not mean his OL kept him clean it means Eli threw a lot of balls away AND looked for quick reads because A. yes, its by design, every QB should get rid of it quickly in todays NFL and B. his OL is trash and has been trash for half a decade.
RE: .  
giants#1 : 5/17/2017 1:30 pm : link
In comment 13474058 Go Terps said:
Quote:
This is part of the reason I question whether Webb (or Mahomes for that matter) made sense for this team when there were more refined (though admittedly less physically talented) passers in this draft.

I would think that in McAdoo's offense, where timing is so important, a premium should be put on footwork and quality throwing mechanics. Even with Eli we've seen things go to shit when his mechanics are off.


The counter to that is that footwork and mechanics are some of the more coachable aspects of QB play. So maybe they felt it was a good time to get someone with (correctable) flaws at a relatively low cost and try to build him into a quality QB. It's not like we're desperate for a starter...
I'll bet  
Chuckstar : 5/17/2017 1:41 pm : link
his 40 time would be a lot quicker too if you put him in a lion's den.
RE: RE: .  
Klaatu : 5/17/2017 1:43 pm : link
In comment 13474114 giants#1 said:
Quote:
In comment 13474058 Go Terps said:


Quote:


This is part of the reason I question whether Webb (or Mahomes for that matter) made sense for this team when there were more refined (though admittedly less physically talented) passers in this draft.

I would think that in McAdoo's offense, where timing is so important, a premium should be put on footwork and quality throwing mechanics. Even with Eli we've seen things go to shit when his mechanics are off.



The counter to that is that footwork and mechanics are some of the more coachable aspects of QB play. So maybe they felt it was a good time to get someone with (correctable) flaws at a relatively low cost and try to build him into a quality QB. It's not like we're desperate for a starter...


Didn't McAdoo change Eli's footwork/mechanics when he took over as OC, or am I not remembering that correctly?
RE: RE: .  
Go Terps : 5/17/2017 1:48 pm : link
In comment 13474114 giants#1 said:
Quote:
In comment 13474058 Go Terps said:


Quote:


This is part of the reason I question whether Webb (or Mahomes for that matter) made sense for this team when there were more refined (though admittedly less physically talented) passers in this draft.

I would think that in McAdoo's offense, where timing is so important, a premium should be put on footwork and quality throwing mechanics. Even with Eli we've seen things go to shit when his mechanics are off.



The counter to that is that footwork and mechanics are some of the more coachable aspects of QB play. So maybe they felt it was a good time to get someone with (correctable) flaws at a relatively low cost and try to build him into a quality QB. It's not like we're desperate for a starter...


Fair points, but I'm skeptical about how effective coaches can be to iron out bad mechanics at the professional level. I'm not saying it can't happen...off the top of my head Rodgers is a guy that comes to mind having entered the league with mechanical issues, but it's becoming clear that he's a generational talent.

We've seen lots of guys whose mechanical issues never improve in the NFL. In other posts I pointed to three guys whose throwing motions most resembled Webb's to my eye: Jay Cutler, Kerry Collins, and Michael Vick. Each of those three guys could throw the ball a mile, but none corrected their flaws in a combined 30+ seasons of football, and it could be reasonably argued that none of those three guys reached their enormous potential in part because of that.

I've also made the point that Webb has a reputation as a workaholic, a student of the game, and is a coach's son. So why is he so messy mechanically, and if it hasn't been fixed yet in about a billion reps that he's probably already taken, can it be fixed at all?
News at 5:00  
Giant John : 5/17/2017 2:27 pm : link
!
RE: RE: It's by design  
T-Bone : 5/17/2017 2:32 pm : link
In comment 13474080 est1986 said:
Quote:
In comment 13474045 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


This was something talked about in 2013 when Mac took over the offense.



Bullshit. Every QB wants to get rid of it quick to avoid the pass rush, Eli was maybe the least sacked QB in the NFL and that does not mean his OL kept him clean it means Eli threw a lot of balls away AND looked for quick reads because A. yes, its by design, every QB should get rid of it quickly in todays NFL and B. his OL is trash and has been trash for half a decade.


It's not bullshit... TTH is correct in that the system Eli's now in is based on a quick-rhythm passing game. This WAS talked about a lot when Coach Mac came on board. The state of the O-line really doesn't have much to do with it although it'd be silly to say that the troubles of the line had nothing to do with Eli getting rid of the ball faster. That said, when the line improves, I doubt the amount of time Eli holds the ball will increase much... if at all. That's simply not the system he is in anymore.
RE: RE: RE: .  
T-Bone : 5/17/2017 2:34 pm : link
In comment 13474130 Klaatu said:
Quote:
In comment 13474114 giants#1 said:


Quote:


In comment 13474058 Go Terps said:


Quote:


This is part of the reason I question whether Webb (or Mahomes for that matter) made sense for this team when there were more refined (though admittedly less physically talented) passers in this draft.

I would think that in McAdoo's offense, where timing is so important, a premium should be put on footwork and quality throwing mechanics. Even with Eli we've seen things go to shit when his mechanics are off.



The counter to that is that footwork and mechanics are some of the more coachable aspects of QB play. So maybe they felt it was a good time to get someone with (correctable) flaws at a relatively low cost and try to build him into a quality QB. It's not like we're desperate for a starter...



Didn't McAdoo change Eli's footwork/mechanics when he took over as OC, or am I not remembering that correctly?


Correct. One thing I remember specifically is how his feet are set when hiking the ball. I believe he's being taught now to have his right foot slightly more forward then his left (or maybe it's vice versa?). I seem to remember Eli himself commenting on this.
RE: RE: RE: .  
T-Bone : 5/17/2017 2:41 pm : link
In comment 13474136 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 13474114 giants#1 said:


Quote:


In comment 13474058 Go Terps said:


Quote:


This is part of the reason I question whether Webb (or Mahomes for that matter) made sense for this team when there were more refined (though admittedly less physically talented) passers in this draft.

I would think that in McAdoo's offense, where timing is so important, a premium should be put on footwork and quality throwing mechanics. Even with Eli we've seen things go to shit when his mechanics are off.



The counter to that is that footwork and mechanics are some of the more coachable aspects of QB play. So maybe they felt it was a good time to get someone with (correctable) flaws at a relatively low cost and try to build him into a quality QB. It's not like we're desperate for a starter...



Fair points, but I'm skeptical about how effective coaches can be to iron out bad mechanics at the professional level. I'm not saying it can't happen...off the top of my head Rodgers is a guy that comes to mind having entered the league with mechanical issues, but it's becoming clear that he's a generational talent.

We've seen lots of guys whose mechanical issues never improve in the NFL. In other posts I pointed to three guys whose throwing motions most resembled Webb's to my eye: Jay Cutler, Kerry Collins, and Michael Vick. Each of those three guys could throw the ball a mile, but none corrected their flaws in a combined 30+ seasons of football, and it could be reasonably argued that none of those three guys reached their enormous potential in part because of that.

Those are three guys, though, that I don't think anyone would classify as 'students of the game'. Maybe Collins could fall under that but Collins also was extremely accurate when he threw the ball with proper technique. But none of the three guys you mention above would strike me as the kind of guys who will work as hard as Webb seems like he will to correct whatever flaws he has.

[quote]I've also made the point that Webb has a reputation as a workaholic, a student of the game, and is a coach's son. So why is he so messy mechanically, and if it hasn't been fixed yet in about a billion reps that he's probably already taken, can it be fixed at all?


I think the simple explanation would be because of the college offenses he's been a part of... not to mention, I wouldn't be surprised if he was in a similar 'Air Raid' system while in high school as well because a large majority of high schools are running those kind of systems as well. So he's never had to work on the kind of mechanics needed for success at the NFL level. Sure he's taken 'a billion reps' in his life... but how many have been in a system where the same kind of mechanics he needs to show now at the Pro level are the kind he worked on during his high school and college playing days?
Thanks, T-Bone.  
Klaatu : 5/17/2017 2:43 pm : link
.....
RE: Eli gets the ball out much quicker ever since he had no OL  
UConn4523 : 5/17/2017 2:51 pm : link
In comment 13474077 Vanzetti said:
Quote:
I think it is a survival instinct.


Plenty of bad OLines in the league and of course it has some effect, but we don't run the Gilbride offense anymore which is the main reason.

If the Giants had the Dallas OLine Eli would still be getting rid of the ball quickly.
T-Bone  
Go Terps : 5/17/2017 2:52 pm : link
I completely agree...the answer to your question is probably either zero or relatively very few. But are we going to start running an Air Raid system? And based on the video I've seen Webb's mechanics look poor in that system too.

why so much concern about Webb?  
UConn4523 : 5/17/2017 2:55 pm : link
he isn't playing this year and his other qualities (size and arm strength in particular) are the reason why we liked him.

Finding the perfect prospect doesn't exist in round 3, hell, it barely exists in round 1. If Webb takes to coaching and learning behind Eli, he has as good a shot as any to clean up his approach and mechanics.
RE: why so much concern about Webb?  
Go Terps : 5/17/2017 2:58 pm : link
In comment 13474211 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
he isn't playing this year and his other qualities (size and arm strength in particular) are the reason why we liked him.

Finding the perfect prospect doesn't exist in round 3, hell, it barely exists in round 1. If Webb takes to coaching and learning behind Eli, he has as good a shot as any to clean up his approach and mechanics.


Not a huge amount of concern here...just skepticism that he is a good fit and that his mechanics actually will get cleaned up.

I'll be interested to see what, if anything, comes from two quarterbacks that were drafted after him: Dobbs and Kaaya. I thought each made more sense for this offense than Webb.
RE: RE: RE: .  
giants#1 : 5/17/2017 3:04 pm : link
In comment 13474136 Go Terps said:
Quote:

Fair points, but I'm skeptical about how effective coaches can be to iron out bad mechanics at the professional level. I'm not saying it can't happen...off the top of my head Rodgers is a guy that comes to mind having entered the league with mechanical issues, but it's becoming clear that he's a generational talent.

We've seen lots of guys whose mechanical issues never improve in the NFL. In other posts I pointed to three guys whose throwing motions most resembled Webb's to my eye: Jay Cutler, Kerry Collins, and Michael Vick. Each of those three guys could throw the ball a mile, but none corrected their flaws in a combined 30+ seasons of football, and it could be reasonably argued that none of those three guys reached their enormous potential in part because of that.

I've also made the point that Webb has a reputation as a workaholic, a student of the game, and is a coach's son. So why is he so messy mechanically, and if it hasn't been fixed yet in about a billion reps that he's probably already taken, can it be fixed at all?


Vick's biggest problems were: 1) the space between his ears and 2) injuries, partly due to his inability to protect himself (slide/get OOBs), which gets back to #1.

re: Webb's mechanics - the optimist in me would say that his mechanics were good enough for him to excel in the college offense he played, so there wasn't a need for his college coaches to use limited/valuable reps working on it.

That said, I do share some of the concerns about why some of his (seemingly) correctable flaws haven't been fixed if he's as hard working and intelligent as the scouting reports say. Particularly when it comes to his ability to read a D and find his 2nd/3rd options (was it Dave Te that mentioned this?).
RE: T-Bone  
T-Bone : 5/17/2017 3:24 pm : link
In comment 13474209 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I completely agree...the answer to your question is probably either zero or relatively very few. But are we going to start running an Air Raid system? And based on the video I've seen Webb's mechanics look poor in that system too.


No we aren't... but that doesn't mean that after a year or two of working to improve the mechanics in order to run the WCO that Webb will not reach his potential like those other three you mentioned. Unlike those three, he has time to sit back and correct his mechanics while Vick and Collins started very early in their careers and Cutler too for that matter. The beauty in all of this is the amount of time he's going to have to get prepared to become the starter (hopefully) down the road. At first I was a little iffy about this pick myself... but after everything that I've read (and to a lesser degree seen) about the guy screams that he will be successful because of the amount of work he's willing to put in to become the best he can possibly be. He seems to be a very driven young man and that's a pretty good place to start when looking for a successful QB.
RE: RE: why so much concern about Webb?  
T-Bone : 5/17/2017 3:29 pm : link
In comment 13474219 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 13474211 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


he isn't playing this year and his other qualities (size and arm strength in particular) are the reason why we liked him.

Finding the perfect prospect doesn't exist in round 3, hell, it barely exists in round 1. If Webb takes to coaching and learning behind Eli, he has as good a shot as any to clean up his approach and mechanics.



Not a huge amount of concern here...just skepticism that he is a good fit and that his mechanics actually will get cleaned up.

I'll be interested to see what, if anything, comes from two quarterbacks that were drafted after him: Dobbs and Kaaya. I thought each made more sense for this offense than Webb.


After everything I've said though Terps... I'm with you in that I was kind of expecting them to take a guy like Kayaa or Peterman because, from what I've read, all those guys needed was a bit of maturing physically and in time they should be pretty good QBs... but neither of them has the arm strenght, apparently, as Webb does and that might've been one of the deciding factors in them settling on him if he was available at the right spot (which he was in the third round... I remember reading recently that they thought about taking him in the 2nd but the Tomlinson's value was too great to pass up).
So Eli getting rid of it quickly is simply just part of the scheme??  
est1986 : 5/17/2017 3:31 pm : link
Ok, now what scheme doesnt want the QB to get rid of the ball quickly in todays NFL??
RE: So Eli getting rid of it quickly is simply just part of the scheme??  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/17/2017 3:34 pm : link
In comment 13474258 est1986 said:
Quote:
Ok, now what scheme doesnt want the QB to get rid of the ball quickly in todays NFL??


Some put more emphasis on it than others. You only have to go back one offensive coordinator to notice a drastic difference. It's basically the polar opposite of the Gilbride's offense, which was long-developing downfield routes.
Scheme? Yeah I think its the scheme regarding  
Jimmy Googs : 5/17/2017 3:55 pm : link
not having any talent at either Tackle position since Mac arrived...
RE: RE: So Eli getting rid of it quickly is simply just part of the scheme??  
T-Bone : 5/17/2017 4:10 pm : link
In comment 13474262 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 13474258 est1986 said:


Quote:


Ok, now what scheme doesnt want the QB to get rid of the ball quickly in todays NFL??



Some put more emphasis on it than others. You only have to go back one offensive coordinator to notice a drastic difference. It's basically the polar opposite of the Gilbride's offense, which was long-developing downfield routes.


This.
Not much there  
OC2.0 : 5/17/2017 5:33 pm : link
Let me see... 7 step drops no longer the norm?
Rodgers gets its out fast too.  
River : 5/17/2017 5:45 pm : link
Its part of the scheme but also a mobile QB who can extend a play is also part of that system. We will not see the Mac system in its entirety until there is a Mobile Quarterback running it. The important thing is We can Win with it with Eli at the helm.
RE: Rodgers gets its out fast too.  
Devon : 5/17/2017 5:54 pm : link
In comment 13474375 River said:
Quote:
Its part of the scheme but also a mobile QB who can extend a play is also part of that system. We will not see the Mac system in its entirety until there is a Mobile Quarterback running it. The important thing is We can Win with it with Eli at the helm.


Rodgers held the ball longer than all but one of 40 qualifying QBs last season.
Getting the ball out quicker is part of the  
Beer Man : 5/17/2017 7:14 pm : link
Mac attack. But at times Eli has gotten it out quiker than he wanted because of the porous oline play
The key to this year's offense will be high completion percentage  
SGMen : 5/17/2017 7:30 pm : link
and lower turnovers.

I honestly see this offense being "highly effective" this year with Eli's BEST completion percentage season ever. Part of the reason will be design of the WC offense; part will be just seeing how New England has done it with hitting the open man quickly and moving the chains, keeping your defense fresh and giving the offense field position and eventual scores; and, I think the OL will improve just a big allowing for higher completions as well.

The way I see it, we have a Top 5 defense right now. Assuming health and getting healthy (FS D. Thompson could really bring this secondary together to league's best status), we have a DL that can stop the run & pressure the passer and a secondary that can cover and take the ball away. If the defense is fresh in fourth quarters, it will DOMINATE.

We also, on paper, seem to have "better than average" special teams so field position battles should come out in our favor most games.

If Eli were to have a "highly efficient" season by moving the chains and actually scoring in the redzone (B. Marshall, TE Engram, improving W. Tye) this team will be very hard to beat. Nothing is written in stone as one injury can change everything BUT on paper, right now, we have the pieces to be dangerous in pretty much every phase of the game.

The only question mark based on past performance is the OL. We have to hope that if Flowers only improves marginally, at least maybe RT Fluker or Bisnotaway upgrade RT (or Hart really steps up though I sort of question how much upside he really has??). Questions along the OL won't be answered until camp or maybe even after a few NFL games.

Efficient with low turnovers on offense; attacking defense that generates turnovers; and a special teams unit that is effective will get us the NFC East title. Just praying for health right now.
How is Will Tye  
Jimmy Googs : 5/17/2017 7:50 pm : link
improving?
RE: How is Will Tye  
SGMen : 5/17/2017 8:20 pm : link
In comment 13474474 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
improving?
TE W. Tye played well down the stretch and in playoffs, I thought. He may never be a great blocker nor may he ever be more than a 2nd or 3rd TE, but you can do worse. He is now in year #3 in the NFL, came out of football powerhouse Stony Brook, so if he plays like he did late last year all year than we have an improved player for sure.

But it is Marshall & Engram that give me the most hope because of their skillsets as big guys for the redzone. I don't want us driving 50 yards, field goal range, and bogging down. Or diving 40 yards to the edge of FG range and bogging down cause we don't have that big body guy who will go up and get that 5 yard pass for a first down. Or the fade for a TD.
Ok, I totally agree he is a 2nd or 3rd TE  
Jimmy Googs : 5/17/2017 8:25 pm : link
but he is not a red zone threat in the least. Which is what I thought I read in your post.

if will Tye is on the roster it's either as a 4th TE or  
Victor in CT : 5/18/2017 8:47 am : link
they have given up on Adams.
RE: if will Tye is on the roster it's either as a 4th TE or  
SGMen : 5/18/2017 8:54 am : link
In comment 13474857 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
they have given up on Adams.
I disagree. I think Ellison ends up our "1st down / Run Down" inline blocking TE who can catch an occassional ball.

Engram will get the most snaps at TE, overall, this year since he'll line up in many places to create mismatches.

Adams is a big body guy who showed enough at the end of last year to make me believe he can easily backup Ellison as a blocker / short yardage receiver type.

W. Tye sticks cause he has ability and we'll keep four TE's and likely no FB. We may have a FB on the PS though. Injuries happen in the NFL....so ya never know, but I like our overall TE talent, with Engram having the potential to SCARE defenses with his speed and versatility.
thats what happens  
BlackburnBalledOut : 5/18/2017 10:22 am : link
when the route tree is only designed for 4 yards routes. McAdoos offense is a dink and dunk short passing game. he takes virtually no shots down the field. of course he gets the ball out quicker, the routes develop so quickly. we see a slant, bench, or short hook or some combo of the three on almost every play.

that lack of creativity also kills the run ga,e because the safeties dont have to play over the top so the LB creep down and so do the safeties.

yea the OL has been bad but their offense is so predictable. this just made me mad, i hate mcadoos offense. hopefully the new playmakers make it a little less predictable and take more shots. they need to throw the ball deep, even if its out of bounds on purpose. you have to show the defense you can and will go deep or else the box gets crowded and the rushing attack suffers regardless of who is blocking.
you hate mcadoo's offense  
UConn4523 : 5/18/2017 10:28 am : link
or just mcadoo's offense in 2016? Huge difference and they shouldn't be compared as equals.
I feel like part of that is Eli's lack of faith in his line  
Bramton1 : 5/18/2017 1:06 pm : link
He gets skittish sometimes, and he's throwing the ball away or going to a check-down option. Sometimes even when he can afford to hold the ball a second longer and hit a WR.
RE: thats what happens  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/18/2017 8:07 pm : link
In comment 13475035 BlackburnBalledOut said:
Quote:
when the route tree is only designed for 4 yards routes.


Citation needed.
RE: I feel like part of that is Eli's lack of faith in his line  
David in LA : 5/18/2017 8:55 pm : link
In comment 13475366 Bramton1 said:
Quote:
He gets skittish sometimes, and he's throwing the ball away or going to a check-down option. Sometimes even when he can afford to hold the ball a second longer and hit a WR.


Shhhh....be careful with comments like that, you'll trigger the jammie wearers.
If you believe it's because he got jumpy  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/18/2017 9:01 pm : link
then why did the huge percentage increases on quick throws begin precisely on pace with the year McAdoo took over the offense?

The offensive line was not good in 2011, 2012, and 2013. It was worse in 2012 and 2013 than it is now.


This really isn't that deep a thing to get into. Not sure why some insist on projecting a narrative onto it.
RE: RE: I feel like part of that is Eli's lack of faith in his line  
crick n NC : 5/18/2017 9:52 pm : link
In comment 13475754 David in LA said:
Quote:
In comment 13475366 Bramton1 said:


Quote:


He gets skittish sometimes, and he's throwing the ball away or going to a check-down option. Sometimes even when he can afford to hold the ball a second longer and hit a WR.



Shhhh....be careful with comments like that, you'll trigger the jammie wearers.


I'm an Eli "jammie wearer" so what?
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