Pro Football Focus& #8207; @PFF
Eli Manning has gotten the ball out of his hand much quicker since the arrival of Ben McAdoo. |
% of dropbacks with pass attempts in 2.5 seconds or less:
2012 - 2016 average 53.7%
2012 - 48%
2013 - 46.%
2014 - 57.4%
2015 - 61.2%
2016 - 63.9%
% of dropbacks with pass attempts in 2.5 seconds or less - (
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I would think that in McAdoo's offense, where timing is so important, a premium should be put on footwork and quality throwing mechanics. Even with Eli we've seen things go to shit when his mechanics are off.
Compounded by self preservation with the shit OL
Bullshit. Every QB wants to get rid of it quick to avoid the pass rush, Eli was maybe the least sacked QB in the NFL and that does not mean his OL kept him clean it means Eli threw a lot of balls away AND looked for quick reads because A. yes, its by design, every QB should get rid of it quickly in todays NFL and B. his OL is trash and has been trash for half a decade.
I would think that in McAdoo's offense, where timing is so important, a premium should be put on footwork and quality throwing mechanics. Even with Eli we've seen things go to shit when his mechanics are off.
The counter to that is that footwork and mechanics are some of the more coachable aspects of QB play. So maybe they felt it was a good time to get someone with (correctable) flaws at a relatively low cost and try to build him into a quality QB. It's not like we're desperate for a starter...
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This is part of the reason I question whether Webb (or Mahomes for that matter) made sense for this team when there were more refined (though admittedly less physically talented) passers in this draft.
I would think that in McAdoo's offense, where timing is so important, a premium should be put on footwork and quality throwing mechanics. Even with Eli we've seen things go to shit when his mechanics are off.
The counter to that is that footwork and mechanics are some of the more coachable aspects of QB play. So maybe they felt it was a good time to get someone with (correctable) flaws at a relatively low cost and try to build him into a quality QB. It's not like we're desperate for a starter...
Didn't McAdoo change Eli's footwork/mechanics when he took over as OC, or am I not remembering that correctly?
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This is part of the reason I question whether Webb (or Mahomes for that matter) made sense for this team when there were more refined (though admittedly less physically talented) passers in this draft.
I would think that in McAdoo's offense, where timing is so important, a premium should be put on footwork and quality throwing mechanics. Even with Eli we've seen things go to shit when his mechanics are off.
The counter to that is that footwork and mechanics are some of the more coachable aspects of QB play. So maybe they felt it was a good time to get someone with (correctable) flaws at a relatively low cost and try to build him into a quality QB. It's not like we're desperate for a starter...
Fair points, but I'm skeptical about how effective coaches can be to iron out bad mechanics at the professional level. I'm not saying it can't happen...off the top of my head Rodgers is a guy that comes to mind having entered the league with mechanical issues, but it's becoming clear that he's a generational talent.
We've seen lots of guys whose mechanical issues never improve in the NFL. In other posts I pointed to three guys whose throwing motions most resembled Webb's to my eye: Jay Cutler, Kerry Collins, and Michael Vick. Each of those three guys could throw the ball a mile, but none corrected their flaws in a combined 30+ seasons of football, and it could be reasonably argued that none of those three guys reached their enormous potential in part because of that.
I've also made the point that Webb has a reputation as a workaholic, a student of the game, and is a coach's son. So why is he so messy mechanically, and if it hasn't been fixed yet in about a billion reps that he's probably already taken, can it be fixed at all?
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This was something talked about in 2013 when Mac took over the offense.
Bullshit. Every QB wants to get rid of it quick to avoid the pass rush, Eli was maybe the least sacked QB in the NFL and that does not mean his OL kept him clean it means Eli threw a lot of balls away AND looked for quick reads because A. yes, its by design, every QB should get rid of it quickly in todays NFL and B. his OL is trash and has been trash for half a decade.
It's not bullshit... TTH is correct in that the system Eli's now in is based on a quick-rhythm passing game. This WAS talked about a lot when Coach Mac came on board. The state of the O-line really doesn't have much to do with it although it'd be silly to say that the troubles of the line had nothing to do with Eli getting rid of the ball faster. That said, when the line improves, I doubt the amount of time Eli holds the ball will increase much... if at all. That's simply not the system he is in anymore.
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In comment 13474058 Go Terps said:
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This is part of the reason I question whether Webb (or Mahomes for that matter) made sense for this team when there were more refined (though admittedly less physically talented) passers in this draft.
I would think that in McAdoo's offense, where timing is so important, a premium should be put on footwork and quality throwing mechanics. Even with Eli we've seen things go to shit when his mechanics are off.
The counter to that is that footwork and mechanics are some of the more coachable aspects of QB play. So maybe they felt it was a good time to get someone with (correctable) flaws at a relatively low cost and try to build him into a quality QB. It's not like we're desperate for a starter...
Didn't McAdoo change Eli's footwork/mechanics when he took over as OC, or am I not remembering that correctly?
Correct. One thing I remember specifically is how his feet are set when hiking the ball. I believe he's being taught now to have his right foot slightly more forward then his left (or maybe it's vice versa?). I seem to remember Eli himself commenting on this.
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In comment 13474058 Go Terps said:
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This is part of the reason I question whether Webb (or Mahomes for that matter) made sense for this team when there were more refined (though admittedly less physically talented) passers in this draft.
I would think that in McAdoo's offense, where timing is so important, a premium should be put on footwork and quality throwing mechanics. Even with Eli we've seen things go to shit when his mechanics are off.
The counter to that is that footwork and mechanics are some of the more coachable aspects of QB play. So maybe they felt it was a good time to get someone with (correctable) flaws at a relatively low cost and try to build him into a quality QB. It's not like we're desperate for a starter...
Fair points, but I'm skeptical about how effective coaches can be to iron out bad mechanics at the professional level. I'm not saying it can't happen...off the top of my head Rodgers is a guy that comes to mind having entered the league with mechanical issues, but it's becoming clear that he's a generational talent.
We've seen lots of guys whose mechanical issues never improve in the NFL. In other posts I pointed to three guys whose throwing motions most resembled Webb's to my eye: Jay Cutler, Kerry Collins, and Michael Vick. Each of those three guys could throw the ball a mile, but none corrected their flaws in a combined 30+ seasons of football, and it could be reasonably argued that none of those three guys reached their enormous potential in part because of that.
Those are three guys, though, that I don't think anyone would classify as 'students of the game'. Maybe Collins could fall under that but Collins also was extremely accurate when he threw the ball with proper technique. But none of the three guys you mention above would strike me as the kind of guys who will work as hard as Webb seems like he will to correct whatever flaws he has.
[quote]I've also made the point that Webb has a reputation as a workaholic, a student of the game, and is a coach's son. So why is he so messy mechanically, and if it hasn't been fixed yet in about a billion reps that he's probably already taken, can it be fixed at all?
I think the simple explanation would be because of the college offenses he's been a part of... not to mention, I wouldn't be surprised if he was in a similar 'Air Raid' system while in high school as well because a large majority of high schools are running those kind of systems as well. So he's never had to work on the kind of mechanics needed for success at the NFL level. Sure he's taken 'a billion reps' in his life... but how many have been in a system where the same kind of mechanics he needs to show now at the Pro level are the kind he worked on during his high school and college playing days?
Plenty of bad OLines in the league and of course it has some effect, but we don't run the Gilbride offense anymore which is the main reason.
If the Giants had the Dallas OLine Eli would still be getting rid of the ball quickly.
Finding the perfect prospect doesn't exist in round 3, hell, it barely exists in round 1. If Webb takes to coaching and learning behind Eli, he has as good a shot as any to clean up his approach and mechanics.
Finding the perfect prospect doesn't exist in round 3, hell, it barely exists in round 1. If Webb takes to coaching and learning behind Eli, he has as good a shot as any to clean up his approach and mechanics.
Not a huge amount of concern here...just skepticism that he is a good fit and that his mechanics actually will get cleaned up.
I'll be interested to see what, if anything, comes from two quarterbacks that were drafted after him: Dobbs and Kaaya. I thought each made more sense for this offense than Webb.
Fair points, but I'm skeptical about how effective coaches can be to iron out bad mechanics at the professional level. I'm not saying it can't happen...off the top of my head Rodgers is a guy that comes to mind having entered the league with mechanical issues, but it's becoming clear that he's a generational talent.
We've seen lots of guys whose mechanical issues never improve in the NFL. In other posts I pointed to three guys whose throwing motions most resembled Webb's to my eye: Jay Cutler, Kerry Collins, and Michael Vick. Each of those three guys could throw the ball a mile, but none corrected their flaws in a combined 30+ seasons of football, and it could be reasonably argued that none of those three guys reached their enormous potential in part because of that.
I've also made the point that Webb has a reputation as a workaholic, a student of the game, and is a coach's son. So why is he so messy mechanically, and if it hasn't been fixed yet in about a billion reps that he's probably already taken, can it be fixed at all?
Vick's biggest problems were: 1) the space between his ears and 2) injuries, partly due to his inability to protect himself (slide/get OOBs), which gets back to #1.
re: Webb's mechanics - the optimist in me would say that his mechanics were good enough for him to excel in the college offense he played, so there wasn't a need for his college coaches to use limited/valuable reps working on it.
That said, I do share some of the concerns about why some of his (seemingly) correctable flaws haven't been fixed if he's as hard working and intelligent as the scouting reports say. Particularly when it comes to his ability to read a D and find his 2nd/3rd options (was it Dave Te that mentioned this?).
No we aren't... but that doesn't mean that after a year or two of working to improve the mechanics in order to run the WCO that Webb will not reach his potential like those other three you mentioned. Unlike those three, he has time to sit back and correct his mechanics while Vick and Collins started very early in their careers and Cutler too for that matter. The beauty in all of this is the amount of time he's going to have to get prepared to become the starter (hopefully) down the road. At first I was a little iffy about this pick myself... but after everything that I've read (and to a lesser degree seen) about the guy screams that he will be successful because of the amount of work he's willing to put in to become the best he can possibly be. He seems to be a very driven young man and that's a pretty good place to start when looking for a successful QB.
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he isn't playing this year and his other qualities (size and arm strength in particular) are the reason why we liked him.
Finding the perfect prospect doesn't exist in round 3, hell, it barely exists in round 1. If Webb takes to coaching and learning behind Eli, he has as good a shot as any to clean up his approach and mechanics.
Not a huge amount of concern here...just skepticism that he is a good fit and that his mechanics actually will get cleaned up.
I'll be interested to see what, if anything, comes from two quarterbacks that were drafted after him: Dobbs and Kaaya. I thought each made more sense for this offense than Webb.
After everything I've said though Terps... I'm with you in that I was kind of expecting them to take a guy like Kayaa or Peterman because, from what I've read, all those guys needed was a bit of maturing physically and in time they should be pretty good QBs... but neither of them has the arm strenght, apparently, as Webb does and that might've been one of the deciding factors in them settling on him if he was available at the right spot (which he was in the third round... I remember reading recently that they thought about taking him in the 2nd but the Tomlinson's value was too great to pass up).
Some put more emphasis on it than others. You only have to go back one offensive coordinator to notice a drastic difference. It's basically the polar opposite of the Gilbride's offense, which was long-developing downfield routes.
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Ok, now what scheme doesnt want the QB to get rid of the ball quickly in todays NFL??
Some put more emphasis on it than others. You only have to go back one offensive coordinator to notice a drastic difference. It's basically the polar opposite of the Gilbride's offense, which was long-developing downfield routes.
This.
Rodgers held the ball longer than all but one of 40 qualifying QBs last season.
I honestly see this offense being "highly effective" this year with Eli's BEST completion percentage season ever. Part of the reason will be design of the WC offense; part will be just seeing how New England has done it with hitting the open man quickly and moving the chains, keeping your defense fresh and giving the offense field position and eventual scores; and, I think the OL will improve just a big allowing for higher completions as well.
The way I see it, we have a Top 5 defense right now. Assuming health and getting healthy (FS D. Thompson could really bring this secondary together to league's best status), we have a DL that can stop the run & pressure the passer and a secondary that can cover and take the ball away. If the defense is fresh in fourth quarters, it will DOMINATE.
We also, on paper, seem to have "better than average" special teams so field position battles should come out in our favor most games.
If Eli were to have a "highly efficient" season by moving the chains and actually scoring in the redzone (B. Marshall, TE Engram, improving W. Tye) this team will be very hard to beat. Nothing is written in stone as one injury can change everything BUT on paper, right now, we have the pieces to be dangerous in pretty much every phase of the game.
The only question mark based on past performance is the OL. We have to hope that if Flowers only improves marginally, at least maybe RT Fluker or Bisnotaway upgrade RT (or Hart really steps up though I sort of question how much upside he really has??). Questions along the OL won't be answered until camp or maybe even after a few NFL games.
Efficient with low turnovers on offense; attacking defense that generates turnovers; and a special teams unit that is effective will get us the NFC East title. Just praying for health right now.
But it is Marshall & Engram that give me the most hope because of their skillsets as big guys for the redzone. I don't want us driving 50 yards, field goal range, and bogging down. Or diving 40 yards to the edge of FG range and bogging down cause we don't have that big body guy who will go up and get that 5 yard pass for a first down. Or the fade for a TD.
Engram will get the most snaps at TE, overall, this year since he'll line up in many places to create mismatches.
Adams is a big body guy who showed enough at the end of last year to make me believe he can easily backup Ellison as a blocker / short yardage receiver type.
W. Tye sticks cause he has ability and we'll keep four TE's and likely no FB. We may have a FB on the PS though. Injuries happen in the NFL....so ya never know, but I like our overall TE talent, with Engram having the potential to SCARE defenses with his speed and versatility.
that lack of creativity also kills the run ga,e because the safeties dont have to play over the top so the LB creep down and so do the safeties.
yea the OL has been bad but their offense is so predictable. this just made me mad, i hate mcadoos offense. hopefully the new playmakers make it a little less predictable and take more shots. they need to throw the ball deep, even if its out of bounds on purpose. you have to show the defense you can and will go deep or else the box gets crowded and the rushing attack suffers regardless of who is blocking.
Citation needed.
Shhhh....be careful with comments like that, you'll trigger the jammie wearers.
The offensive line was not good in 2011, 2012, and 2013. It was worse in 2012 and 2013 than it is now.
This really isn't that deep a thing to get into. Not sure why some insist on projecting a narrative onto it.
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He gets skittish sometimes, and he's throwing the ball away or going to a check-down option. Sometimes even when he can afford to hold the ball a second longer and hit a WR.
Shhhh....be careful with comments like that, you'll trigger the jammie wearers.
I'm an Eli "jammie wearer" so what?