NFT: Cavaliers-Celtics Game 1

In the past ten seasons, there have been seven different champions and thirteen different franchises have appeared in the World Series.

In comparison, the past two NBA finals featured the same matchup between the Cavs and the Warriors. Before that, the Spurs and the Heat faced off in consecutive finals. The Heat played in four straight finals. The Lakers played in three straight finals before that. The last finals that didn't involve at least one of the Cavaliers, Spurs, Heat, or Lakers was the Bulls-Jazz final in 1998.

In comment 13475476 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

In the past ten seasons, there have been seven different champions and thirteen different franchises have appeared in the World Series. In comparison, the past two NBA finals featured the same matchup between the Cavs and the Warriors. Before that, the Spurs and the Heat faced off in consecutive finals. The Heat played in four straight finals. The Lakers played in three straight finals before that. The last finals that didn't involve at least one of the Cavaliers, Spurs, Heat, or Lakers was the Bulls-Jazz final in 1998.

You could condense that to be the last finals that did not involve Lebron, Kobe or Timmy.

Since 1980, there have only been three NBA finals that didn't include at least one of the Lakers, Celtics, Bulls, Heat, Spurs, and Cavaliers - 1995 (Rockets-Magic), 1994 (Rockets-Knicks), and 1990 (Pistons-Blazers). One of those six teams has played in 34 of the last 37 NBA finals.

It's absurd that DeAndre Jordan got 3 first team votes and that he made 3rd team over guys like Marc Gasol and KAT. I also disagree with IT over Wall but that's personal preference.

But beyond that, how on Earth does LeBron get a 2nd team vote and Kawhi a 3rd team vote?

Eventually, the full ballots will be released, but that seems completely indefensible.

I can even understand the lone Curry over Westbrook because I think Curry is the best guard in the League, but a 2nd team vote for LeBron? A 3rd for Kawhi? What is going on?!?!?

would've made more sense than DJ.

Should not be able to vote for anything, ever again.

Did you even notice what you did?

I asked for a Series. You came up with a game.

A singular game.

The best you can come up with is a game that Jordan won, in a Series he won and a Series he won MVP of?

I'm talking about the entire 2011 NBA Finals.


In comment 13475349 arcarsenal said:

Quote:

Jordan went 5-19 from the field and turned the ball over 5 times in the Finals clinching win against Seattle in 96.. but no one cared because they won. He had a game the following season in the ECF where he shot like 26% from the field. He did have off nights, it's just that time has largely erased them from most peoples memories.

In 1995 after 3 years off Jordan came back in mid March and played 17 regular season games. He had no preparation and work to play an NBA season. He trained for a professional baseball season.

And you want to compare this to the year LeBron had his long awaited free agency and formed the Big 3 and self declared he would win 7 titles?

Really? You think that is a fair representation of Michael Jordan as a player? Or peak Jordan?

There's a reason why I don't mention LeBrons performance in his first Finals other than as a star that he appeared in it. It's not a fair representation of his peak to consider for GOAT.

Considering the circumstances and context of what Jordan did in 1995, what he accomplished was pretty amazing and should be held to his credit and not his detriment.

But if you need a less than 100% Jordan to compare to LeBron then I think that answers the GOAT question.

In comment 13475333 santacruzom said:

Quote:

In comment 13474832 twostepgiants said: Quote: Yes it does. Greatness is determined when everything is on the line. The highest stakes 1- name a single bad Jordan playoff series? \ 1995 against Orlando - eliminated in semis. Man, can you imagine the shit hurled at LeBron if he lost in the semis at this point in his career? No mammal on earth can produce shit that large.

In comment 13475604 twostepgiants said:

Quote:

Did you even notice what you did? I asked for a Series. You came up with a game. A singular game. The best you can come up with is a game that Jordan won, in a Series he won and a Series he won MVP of? I'm talking about the entire 2011 NBA Finals. In comment 13475349 arcarsenal said: Quote: Jordan went 5-19 from the field and turned the ball over 5 times in the Finals clinching win against Seattle in 96.. but no one cared because they won. He had a game the following season in the ECF where he shot like 26% from the field. He did have off nights, it's just that time has largely erased them from most peoples memories.

Did you notice what you did?

You disregarded 6 years of work, 3 Championships, and 3 Finals MVP's to diminish an entire career based on one series.

And by the way, LeBron was not bad in every game of that Dallas series.

On what planet is 24/9/5 on 56% from the field and 4/5 from behind the arc considered bad?

Or a triple double in Game 5. I guess that's bad, too.

LeBron had one truly awful game in that series and was below his general standard. It was his first year in Miami and pretty clearly an outlier.

Diminishing every single thing he's done since then is just sour grapes from someone who refuses to admit the incredible career he's had. Hang onto it if you'd like - I'll continue to enjoy watching the best player on planet earth right now continue to do what he does.

to try and argue Jordan vs. LeBron because the argument never goes anywhere. LeBron will never have the Finals record/MVP that Jordan had, and Jordan will never have the Giant-slayer accomplishment that LeBron had in defeating the all-time Warrior team last year. Jordan also never carried a roster to the Finals as bad as what LeBron did in 2007, and was never as shorthanded in a Finals yet still put up a monster performance like LeBron did in 2015*

Jordan never had the memorably bad postseason series or performances that LeBron occasionally had, and LeBron never has to deal with the notion that Jordan was 1-9 in playoff series without Pippen.

Jordan didn't have "The Decision" mis step and didn't have to leave the team who drafted him and team up with other stars to win a championship. Yet, LeBron wasn't gifted an incredible situation with incredible teammates throughout his career and arguably the greatest star coach in NBA history.

Jordan had to score and play in a much more violent and physical league who used the "Jordan rules" to beat up on him. LeBron had to play in an era with zone defense and a far more expansive and globalized pool of talent.

Jordan never got caught head-snapping or criticized for whining to the refs, while LeBron has to deal with the most media pressure (24/7 sports channels, social media, HD cameras in every cell phone) perhaps any athlete has ever faced.

Both players are two of the most dominant players in the history of the game. They played in different eras in different circumstances with completely different styles.

You take one, I'll take the other.


*his Toon Squad teammates notwithstanding

I'd say that post about covers it.

In comment 13475643 PaulBlakeTSU said:

Quote:

to try and argue Jordan vs. LeBron because the argument never goes anywhere. LeBron will never have the Finals record/MVP that Jordan had, and Jordan will never have the Giant-slayer accomplishment that LeBron had in defeating the all-time Warrior team last year. Jordan also never carried a roster to the Finals as bad as what LeBron did in 2007, and was never as shorthanded in a Finals yet still put up a monster performance like LeBron did in 2015* Jordan never had the memorably bad postseason series or performances that LeBron occasionally had, and LeBron never has to deal with the notion that Jordan was 1-9 in playoff series without Pippen. Jordan didn't have "The Decision" mis step and didn't have to leave the team who drafted him and team up with other stars to win a championship. Yet, LeBron wasn't gifted an incredible situation with incredible teammates throughout his career and arguably the greatest star coach in NBA history. Jordan had to score and play in a much more violent and physical league who used the "Jordan rules" to beat up on him. LeBron had to play in an era with zone defense and a far more expansive and globalized pool of talent. Jordan never got caught head-snapping or criticized for whining to the refs, while LeBron has to deal with the most media pressure (24/7 sports channels, social media, HD cameras in every cell phone) perhaps any athlete has ever faced. Both players are two of the most dominant players in the history of the game. They played in different eras in different circumstances with completely different styles. You take one, I'll take the other. *his Toon Squad teammates notwithstanding

Good post.

It wasnt just the 2011 NBA Finals

How about the 2014 NBA Finals? Yes, his stats were fine but come on. Anyone who watched knows the truth. The Heat lost all 4 games by about 20 pts or more each. Im sorry but the GOAT just doesnt have a team that is blown off the court and non-competing each and every game of the NBA Finals. Those games were all over by halftime.

I'd also add, that LeBron biggest knock is he just hasn't the big shot to win a title or had that big offensive outburst in the 4Q to win the title. He just hasnt. It was Ray Allen who hit the shot vs the Spurs. Last year, LeBron played great no doubt in all facets of the game. But lets be honest, Kyrie irvin hit all the clutch 4Q shots and the title winner.

This year, I check in on game 4 vs.toronto. The Raptors take a lead on a huge 3 and the place is going nuts with 5 mins left. Im like, lets see what LeBron does. Well, it was Kyrie Irvin who railed off 11 straight points. This goes unmentioned by the announcers. Then LeBron hits a 3 to put them up 13 and the announcers go nuts about his 'clutch" shot.

He has been in 7 NBA Finals. Its not like he hasnt had ample opportunity to offensively takeover a pivotal game in one of these series in the 4Q or hit the big shot to win it.

James actually missed the 3 Pter in game 6 vs. Spurs down 3 that Bosh got the rebound from for the famous Ray Allen shot.

Last year in G7, With the game ties at 89-89 with 4 mins to go, LeBron missed 3 seperate shots to put his team up. That's why Irvin's 3 with 50 secs left was so big. James was 0-3 on potential game winners.

There is no flu game here. There is no 6 3pter barrage game here. There is no Byron Russell shot Equivalent shot here. There is no buzzer beater to win in game 1 of Finals equivalent here either. Instead we have the 2011 and 2014 NBA Finals.

Holy crap, you have to be kidding me.

Also - it's Kyrie Irving. Not Irvin.

Anyway, you just chose to completely gloss over countless memorable playoff performances - including a couple from just last year where he led the Cavs back from a 3-1 series deficit to win the title.

He wasn't the Finals MVP three times by accident.

The way you're attempting to completely diminish the career of one of the greatest players in NBA history makes it impossible to even have this conversation in a reasonable manner.

In all but 1 game

You have zero credibility. I'm sorry. You do.

I dont care about stats. Stats are and are often misleading, he was a complete non factor in those games when they were decided. He was committing fouls, turnovers, looking like he wanted no part of any big shot down the stretch in games 3-6. James scored 9'of the first 14 Miami points and still finished with just 21 in the G6 elimination game . It was terrible. he scored just 17 pts in G5, a 2-2 Series, in a game he tweeted out was "the biggest of his career". He shot just 36% in Games 3-6. Seriously. Just stop with the it was one bad game.

The GOAT isnt about stats. Its about the ability to be the best when everyone is at their best and all eyes and all attention are on that moment and that situation. Everyone playing at their peak, and you still cant be stopped. That's Jordan. Not James.

The 2011 NBA Finals are the lowest moment of James career and its not because of 1 game in that Series.

Let's see..

Game 5, 2016 vs GSW, facing elimination, LeBron posted 41/16/7/3
Game 6, 2012 vs BOS, facing elimination, LeBron posted 45/15/5
Game 5, 2007 vs DET, LeBron scored 29 of the Cavs final 30 points in a game where he went 48/9/7 in a win and took a pitiful Cavs team to the Finals
Game 6, 2013, facing elimination in the Finals vs SA, Ray Allen's shot doesn't matter if LeBron doesn't post 32/11/10 and come up big with the season on the line.
Game 1, 2013 ECF vs IND, LeBron posts 30/10/10 to go along with the game winner at the buzzer
Game 2, 2009 ECF vs. ORL, hits a contested fadeaway 3 at the buzzer from the top of the arc to win the game on a night where he posted 35/5/4

But yeah.. no big moments. Can't come through in the clutch.

I guess when you're a Jordan dickrider, you'll simply ignore anything that doesn't fit your narrative though.

Also, you're not very good with reading comprehension.

I said he had one truly awful game in that series and that the series was below his standard as a whole.

I simply pointed out that he wasn't bad in every single game. He wasn't. Facts are facts.

But if you want to continue to harp on a series from 6 years ago and ignore what he's done recently, go on ahead. I'm not changing your mind.

that eats up dumb narratives attached to sports. Lebron had an awful 2011 Finals, is that a depiction of his entire body of work, or would you just prefer to act as if there was no NBA at all after 2011?

They all have countless great and memorable performances.

Jordan, LeBron and magic andBird and Kareem and Kobe, etc.

They all have countless incredible and magnificent playoff moments and games and series.

By definition to discuss the Goat, you have to leave out some and slice the apple really thin to a few key points and moments.

There is a reason that Michael Jordan was announced at his HOF induction in front of his peers as "by acclimation the greatest basketball of all time". Even they acknowledge that he is the greatest.

Ask yourself deep down, Game 7 of the NBA Finals. You are trailing by 1 point with 3 seconds left and you have the ball. So no time for someone else to grab rebounds or tip ins or get another shot. Its just one shot. Deep down, do you really think LeBron James is hitting that shot?

I, deep down, know and believe that Michael Jordan will hit that shot. That's why he is the GOAT.

Quote:

Ask yourself deep down, Game 7 of the NBA Finals. You are trailing by 1 point with 3 seconds left and you have the ball. So no time for someone else to grab rebounds or tip ins or get another shot. Its just one shot. Deep down, do you really think LeBron James is hitting that shot?

You are collapsing the entire thing down into "who has a better chance of hitting a game winning shot?"

There is so much more to being great than how many game winning shots you can hit.

Of course it's Michael. He was a better shooter than LeBron. He was a better pure scorer. That was the strongest aspect of his game. That's not LeBron's game. He's not a sharpshooter.

LeBron impacts the game differently than Michael. If all you can do is reduce LeBron to "he's not good at hitting game winning shots," then there's really no discussion to be had here because there is so much more to the game than that.

Did you not read what I posted about the 2014 NBA Finals? Or last years finals in G7?

I dont watch any of the sports show or even read any of these sites. I simply watch the games.

Ive watched the entirety of Jordans career and James career. I believe that James is likely the 2nd greatest player of all time. But there is a large distance between him and Jordan. I think James is closer to magic and Kareem and its pretty close to where they rank.

In comment 13475702 David in LA said:

Quote:

that eats up dumb narratives attached to sports. Lebron had an awful 2011 Finals, is that a depiction of his entire body of work, or would you just prefer to act as if there was no NBA at all after 2011?

I asked whether you thought James would hit it

Clearly by your answer you don't believe he would.

Your excuses revolve around him not being a sharpshooter. Or whatever.

The guy is a career 27 ppg scorer and I cant ask whether or not he can deliver a game winning shot?

Somehow Im supposed to be impressed by his ability to drop 41 in game 3 of a second series he is up 2-0 against the raptors or some other overmatched team but just forget about him missing say 3 consecutive shots to take the lead in G7 of th Finals of a tie game?

I guess driving to the hoop or dunking is not a possibility? There are a lot of ways to score besides "sharpshooting", which BTW was a knock on Jordan that he wasn't very good at it until the second half of his career.

Again, Michael was a better pure scorer than LeBron. That's obvious to anyone who has watched the two play. LeBron is a better facilitator - he's better at getting his teammates involved. But that doesn't mean he can't or hasn't taken over games.

My point is that to hit a game winning shot, the odds are going to be heavily favored towards a guy who is a better pure shooter. Michael was a better shooter than LeBron which you seem to think means he better overall by this huge margin.

I've seen LeBron win games at the buzzer. I've seen him come up huge in elimination games. I've seen him carry bad teams. He can pretty clearly do it.

And no, you don't have to be impressed by him dropping 41 points in a game against Toronto, but if you're not impressed by the athleticism displayed on a game changing defensive play against Igoudala (a play Michael probably doesn't make), in a game 7 where he also happened to drop yet another triple double, I don't know what to tell you.

In comment 13475702 David in LA said:

Quote:

Lebron had an awful 2011 Finals, is that a depiction of his entire body of work, or would you just prefer to act as if there was no NBA at all after 2011?

Or before 2011, for that matter.

2011 is definitely his outlier.

In comment 13475690 twostepgiants said:

Quote:

I'd also add, that LeBron biggest knock is he just hasn't the big shot to win a title or had that big offensive outburst in the 4Q to win the title. He just hasnt. It was Ray Allen who hit the shot vs the Spurs. Last year, LeBron played great no doubt in all facets of the game. But lets be honest, Kyrie irvin hit all the clutch 4Q shots and the title winner.

Oh man, you missed a phenomenal, potentially game-saving block by LeBron in the final minutes of game 6 last year. Or is it just that you have no memory of that block? If that's the case, I envy you.

In comment 13475734 santacruzom said:

Quote:

In comment 13475690 twostepgiants said: Quote: I'd also add, that LeBron biggest knock is he just hasn't the big shot to win a title or had that big offensive outburst in the 4Q to win the title. He just hasnt. It was Ray Allen who hit the shot vs the Spurs. Last year, LeBron played great no doubt in all facets of the game. But lets be honest, Kyrie irvin hit all the clutch 4Q shots and the title winner. Oh man, you missed a phenomenal, potentially game-saving block by LeBron in the final minutes of game 6 last year. Or is it just that you have no memory of that block? If that's the case, I envy you.

The block in game 5 and 6 were both of the soul crushing variety.

Again?

Jordan has had some of the greatest blocks Ive ever seen and is a defensive player of the year and 9 time all first team defense. He was legit the best defensive player in the league or close for awhile.

Look at this block of Patrick Ewing (and its not the more famous revenge block of Ewing) , one of the 50 greatest players of all time and a 7 footer and tell me that Jordan cant make a block of Andre Iguoala?

Jordan had the second highest vertical jump in NBA history at 46 inches. Why cant he make this block?

Jordan blocks Ewing - ( New Window )

In comment 13475643 PaulBlakeTSU said:

Quote:

to try and argue Jordan vs. LeBron because the argument never goes anywhere. LeBron will never have the Finals record/MVP that Jordan had, and Jordan will never have the Giant-slayer accomplishment that LeBron had in defeating the all-time Warrior team last year. Jordan also never carried a roster to the Finals as bad as what LeBron did in 2007, and was never as shorthanded in a Finals yet still put up a monster performance like LeBron did in 2015* Jordan never had the memorably bad postseason series or performances that LeBron occasionally had, and LeBron never has to deal with the notion that Jordan was 1-9 in playoff series without Pippen. Jordan didn't have "The Decision" mis step and didn't have to leave the team who drafted him and team up with other stars to win a championship. Yet, LeBron wasn't gifted an incredible situation with incredible teammates throughout his career and arguably the greatest star coach in NBA history. Jordan had to score and play in a much more violent and physical league who used the "Jordan rules" to beat up on him. LeBron had to play in an era with zone defense and a far more expansive and globalized pool of talent. Jordan never got caught head-snapping or criticized for whining to the refs, while LeBron has to deal with the most media pressure (24/7 sports channels, social media, HD cameras in every cell phone) perhaps any athlete has ever faced. Both players are two of the most dominant players in the history of the game. They played in different eras in different circumstances with completely different styles. You take one, I'll take the other. *his Toon Squad teammates notwithstanding

This is an excellent post

What's funny is that my first comment on this topic actually said that I'm not ready to declare LeBron better than Michael at this point in time.

People who think it's not close or that the idea is laughable (in either direction - this actually started because someone claimed LeBron was far superior to Jordan) are the ones who drive me insane.

LeBron is going to be back in the Finals this year with a chance to grab ring #4 at age 32 and he still has a good amount left in the tank judging by the way he's going right now.

When all is said and done, you bet your ass there's going to be a legitimate discussion about which guy was better.

LeBron could win 4 more Championships and people like twostepgiants will still say "yeah, but 2011 he had that one bad series!" That's the problem with these discussions. Some people have their heels dug so far in that they can't be reasonable.

rooting hard for Cleveland.

In comment 13475752 twostepgiants said:

Quote:

Again? Jordan has had some of the greatest blocks Ive ever seen and is a defensive player of the year and 9 time all first team defense. He was legit the best defensive player in the league or close for awhile. Look at this block of Patrick Ewing (and its not the more famous revenge block of Ewing) , one of the 50 greatest players of all time and a 7 footer and tell me that Jordan cant make a block of Andre Iguoala? Jordan had the second highest vertical jump in NBA history at 46 inches. Why cant he make this block? Jordan blocks Ewing - ( New Window )

Athletically, I'm sure he was. Lots of current players are. But to recognize what was going to happen and time it so perfectly like that isn't to be taken for granted. And applying your logic of "if he could have, he would have" would have to mean that we should assume Jordan couldn't execute a coast to coast block of that caliber, since he has no examples proving otherwise.

yes, ive seen enough. I don't believe I need to see more of LeBron to think he is the Greatest of All Time. I dont believe being the greatest is about measurable of these things. Even if someone topped Jordan at 7 titles, I dont think that necessarily does it. Russell has more, I dont consider him better.

Ive seen the entirety of Jordans career and Lebrons. Thousands of games. Ive made my judgement about whom I think is better out of the two. How much more is there to know about them?

Other than checking off the list of accomplishments box? I don't necessarily even see longevity as part of the equation for GOAT. Its the greatest, I think you can even be the GOAT even for a moment, theoretically. The greatest is the greatest. No one better, Kinda like how you could say win the long jump more times than anyone at the Olympics but one guy one time jumps further and you are the record holder, no one has ever jumped further.

That said, you are just as extremist as you criticize. Ive stated on this thread that I think James is the 2nd greatest player in NBA history, and you act like Ive issued some sort of blasphemy against him.

In comment 13475788 arcarsenal said:

Quote:

What's funny is that my first comment on this topic actually said that I'm not ready to declare LeBron better than Michael at this point in time. People who think it's not close or that the idea is laughable (in either direction - this actually started because someone claimed LeBron was far superior to Jordan) are the ones who drive me insane. LeBron is going to be back in the Finals this year with a chance to grab ring #4 at age 32 and he still has a good amount left in the tank judging by the way he's going right now. When all is said and done, you bet your ass there's going to be a legitimate discussion about which guy was better. LeBron could win 4 more Championships and people like twostepgiants will still say "yeah, but 2011 he had that one bad series!" That's the problem with these discussions. Some people have their heels dug so far in that they can't be reasonable.

So, you ARE willing to consider a singular 6 year-old series a major red "X" on LeBron's career - but nothing he accomplishes from here on out matters because you've already seen enough.

I mean.. if you can't clearly see how ridiculous that is, we really have nothing more to discuss.

You actually didn't say LeBron was the 2nd greatest player of all time. You said he likely was - and you said there's a large gap between Jordan and LeBron. There is not.

What's funny is that you said this:

The GOAT isnt about stats. Its about the ability to be the best when everyone is at their best and all eyes and all attention are on that moment and that situation

Does Jordan fit that criteria? Yes. Guess who else does: LeBron James.

If you need a reminder, go ahead and re-watch last years Finals.

You've been pulling things out of your ass this entire conversation. Claiming that "Kyrie Irvin" was the one who hit every big 4th Q shot in the Finals last year.

In the 4th Q of Game 6 last year, LeBron scored 17 points. Kyrie? 1 point.

Yes, its called an opinion. I have my own. it seems to seriously bother you that people hold a different opinion then you do.

I have a professional background in sports and am not unqualified to make a talent evaluation. You know nothing about me.

I believe there is a large gap between Jordan and LeBron. You state definately that "there is not". In case you dont know, this opinion on the GOAT is subjective and not objective. There is not way to tell definitively. You seem to think there is. It is in the eye of the beholder. I have enough of a background to hold a qualified opinion.

I think LeBron is closer to Magic, Kareem, Bird and others but holds an edge on them. Im less certain about this. Im not sure why this is problematic.

yeah, LeBron had a great G6. A game that was basically a blow out the whole way, obviously in large part because of his play. Cave were up 20 in the 3rd. Double digits basically the whole 4Q. LeBron has often excelled in these type of situations. There is not much to be gained in terms of an evaluation from this type of scenario, in terms of evaluating between the 2nd greatest and greatest players of all time.

Where LeBron hasn't succeeded as much is the tight 4Q championship deciding round where his team is trailing by a bucket or tied or up maybe a bucket. This is where all the pressure is.

if you need with this example, think of the FG kicker. There is a monstrous difference between a FG down by 2 with 1 second left and a FG up or down 13 pts at any point in a game. Let alone a game deciding FG in a Super Bowl.

I already pointed out how LeBron missed all 3 opportunities that presented in G7, how he missed in the past NBA Finals.

In comment 13475820 arcarsenal said:

Quote:

So, you ARE willing to consider a singular 6 year-old series a major red "X" on LeBron's career - but nothing he accomplishes from here on out matters because you've already seen enough. I mean.. if you can't clearly see how ridiculous that is, we really have nothing more to discuss. You actually didn't say LeBron was the 2nd greatest player of all time. You said he likely was - and you said there's a large gap between Jordan and LeBron. There is not. What's funny is that you said this: The GOAT isnt about stats. Its about the ability to be the best when everyone is at their best and all eyes and all attention are on that moment and that situation Does Jordan fit that criteria? Yes. Guess who else does: LeBron James. If you need a reminder, go ahead and re-watch last years Finals. You've been pulling things out of your ass this entire conversation. Claiming that "Kyrie Irvin" was the one who hit every big 4th Q shot in the Finals last year. In the 4th Q of Game 6 last year, LeBron scored 17 points. Kyrie? 1 point.

Quote:

I already pointed out how LeBron missed all 3 opportunities that presented in G7, how he missed in the past NBA Finals.

Yeah, you conveniently worded it so that you left out the 3 pointer he hit right before that when CLE was trailing 87-86 with under 5 minutes to play.

You are making everything about scoring. You keep saying LeBron doesn't handle pressure well but there are countless instances of this being untrue.

You've narrowed your criteria to the point where basically anything short of hitting a game winning shot at the buzzer in a Game 7 of the NBA finals isn't clutch. His block on Igoudala was a game-changing play. CLE most likely loses that game (and the series) if he doesn't make that play.

You can impact a basketball game in ways besides scoring - I'm surprised a professional talent evaluator such as yourself is struggling so much with that concept.

The majority of your evidence also seems to be anecdotal. You point out instances where LeBron has missed shots in situations you consider clutch, but leave out ones he's made. You've also provided no context at all.

If you can show me actual evidence (beyond simply cherry picking) that LeBron routinely has struggled more than other great NBA players in clutch situations - I'd certainly be interested in seeing it.

Because this is what I've found - and it doesn't seem to jive with what you're claiming.

Quote:

This was the third time in his career that James hit a game-winning shot at the buzzer during a postseason game, according to ESPN Stats & Info. That's the same number that Michael Jordan hit in his career. LeBron has also now made four go-ahead shots in the "final seconds" of playoffs games, per ESPN Stats & Info. Over the past 15 years no one has hit more. In the playoffs LeBron has now taken 10 potential go-ahead shots in the final five seconds of the fourth quarter or overtime. He's connected on six of them, according to ESPN's Brian Windhorst. Jordan was 5-of-11 in such situations during his career.

The above is from 2015 - LeBron has since come up big in more moments where the spotlight shined brightest and took home another Finals MVP.

That's what makes it an opinion

You keep harping on the block. It was a great play. No doubt. It's obviously the greatest moment of his career. But your intensity about it only proves my point more. The clutchness of his defensive play matters, right?

You say they would have lost without it? Why? Clev would be down 2 with about 140 left and the ball. That's a loss? News to me. Down 2 with 140 in ball is a loss? Really?

Because what you are saying is the moment and the context really matter.

At that point of the game. In that situation. In that moment of the game and series with those stakes, James makes that play and it do effects his opppndnts that his team will win.

You are proving my criteria.

Tell the 2 pts down with 140 to go is a loss to Jordan because he was down 3 with 40 secs in G6 vs Utah. He subsequently drove the ball down court in secs to get a layup quickly so he could get a 2-for-1 to ensure getting the bell back. Then he steals the ball from Karl Malone on the Jazz possession with 17 to go and then comes down and hits the shot on Russell to win the title. Down 3 with 40 to go. That's how he won his 6th NBA title. 3 plays in 40 secs.

But it's interesting that you see it as a Cavs loss if the Warriors took the lead with 140 or so to go.

I hold James accountable for his teams performance in the 2011 and 2014 NBA Finals.

The 2014 Finals was a disgrace. Losing by the largest margin in the history of the league. Blown out 4 times. Games over by halftime? Come on man.

This never would have happened to a Jordan led team. He wouldn't allow it. He punched teammates in practice for going too easy.

You've said that LeBron makes his teammates better, well what the heck happened there? And how doesn't it fall on his shoulders?

In comment 13475697 arcarsenal said:

Quote:

Let's see.. Game 5, 2016 vs GSW, facing elimination, LeBron posted 41/16/7/3 Game 6, 2012 vs BOS, facing elimination, LeBron posted 45/15/5 Game 5, 2007 vs DET, LeBron scored 29 of the Cavs final 30 points in a game where he went 48/9/7 in a win and took a pitiful Cavs team to the Finals Game 6, 2013, facing elimination in the Finals vs SA, Ray Allen's shot doesn't matter if LeBron doesn't post 32/11/10 and come up big with the season on the line. Game 1, 2013 ECF vs IND, LeBron posts 30/10/10 to go along with the game winner at the buzzer Game 2, 2009 ECF vs. ORL, hits a contested fadeaway 3 at the buzzer from the top of the arc to win the game on a night where he posted 35/5/4 But yeah.. no big moments. Can't come through in the clutch. I guess when you're a Jordan dickrider, you'll simply ignore anything that doesn't fit your narrative though.

His Game 6 performance in Boston in the '12 ECF was freaking epic. There was a lot of chatter leading up to that game re. him & man did he deliver.

You've still failed to provide actual context to show that LeBron James is any worse than other greats in the league in crunch time.

He had a bad series 6 years ago? Okay.

He missed a few shots in the 4th quarter of a Finals game? Okay - so has every other great player in the history of the league if they were fortunate enough to even be in that position.

Show me something that actually backs up what you're claiming besides your own biased, anecdotal evidence.

So far, all you've continued to do is conveniently shift criteria and focus so that it fits your narrative and eliminate/ignore everything that doesn't jive with it.

It's still a team sport. What did Jordan ever accomplish before he had Pippen aside from getting road blocked by the Pistons? Why didn't he just punch his teammates in the face and make them play better?

Look, you obviously don't like LeBron James the person. You made that evident from the very beginning here with the swipes at the decisions, the "not 1, not 2..." stuff, etc. that have nothing to do with his actual playing resume. You're obviously biased.

We're not going to get anywhere here. Waste of time.

Enjoy your weekend.

In comment 13476013 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

Quote:

In comment 13475697 arcarsenal said: Quote: Let's see.. Game 5, 2016 vs GSW, facing elimination, LeBron posted 41/16/7/3 Game 6, 2012 vs BOS, facing elimination, LeBron posted 45/15/5 Game 5, 2007 vs DET, LeBron scored 29 of the Cavs final 30 points in a game where he went 48/9/7 in a win and took a pitiful Cavs team to the Finals Game 6, 2013, facing elimination in the Finals vs SA, Ray Allen's shot doesn't matter if LeBron doesn't post 32/11/10 and come up big with the season on the line. Game 1, 2013 ECF vs IND, LeBron posts 30/10/10 to go along with the game winner at the buzzer Game 2, 2009 ECF vs. ORL, hits a contested fadeaway 3 at the buzzer from the top of the arc to win the game on a night where he posted 35/5/4 But yeah.. no big moments. Can't come through in the clutch. I guess when you're a Jordan dickrider, you'll simply ignore anything that doesn't fit your narrative though. His Game 6 performance in Boston in the '12 ECF was freaking epic. There was a lot of chatter leading up to that game re. him & man did he deliver.

Yup. Legendary performance. Apparently it's no flu game, though...

In comment 13475690 twostepgiants said:

Quote:

It wasnt just the 2011 NBA Finals How about the 2014 NBA Finals? I'd also add, that LeBron biggest knock is he just hasn't the big shot to win a title or had that big offensive outburst in the 4Q to win the title. He just hasnt. It was Ray Allen who hit the shot vs the Spurs. Last year, LeBron played great no doubt in all facets of the game. But lets be honest, Kyrie irvin hit all the clutch 4Q shots and the title winner. He has been in 7 NBA Finals. Its not like he hasnt had ample opportunity to offensively takeover a pivotal game in one of these series in the 4Q or hit the big shot to win it. James actually missed the 3 Pter in game 6 vs. Spurs down 3 that Bosh got the rebound from for the famous Ray Allen shot.

But the part I bolded is an absolute joke. LeBron NEVER took over in the 4th? It was only because of Ray Allen that they won that game?


Let me remind you of what happened in the "Ray Allen Game".

- SPURS up 75-68 at the start of 4th quarter
- LeBron scores 16 pts
- LeBron scores or assists on EVERY Field Goal in that quarter before Allen's shot
- LeBron hits the eventual GW-shot in OT

Heat Win... and then LeBron drops a monster 37/12/4 in Game 7 to win the title.


2011 is a black mark against LeBron. No debate. But the people who say Ray Allen saved LeBron's ass are foolish at best.

Calling someone the 2nd best player of all time is personal hatred now?

I've used James own words, I haven't said anything personal about him. He set the standard for which he was to be judged. And he went out and had that Finals.

You guys are also picking and choosing. James had a much hyped ECF vs Celtics because of the previous playoff failures. The 2009 and 2010 losses to the Magic and Celtics came as 1 seeds.

That 10 series vs Celts is very similar to the 14 Finals vs Spurs. 4 double digit losses before James left for free agency.

Yeah James had some big games. Or "monster games" as you say. They all do. Jordan averaged 41 ppg in the Finals. That's 6 monster games.

What did Jordan accomplish before Pippen? I doubt Scottie Pippen would even claim that Jordan won because of Pippen.

For one , Jordan won an NCAA title by hitting a game winner with 17 secs left. Sound familiar?

Pour it on, boys.

LOL

Maybe the Cavs will give Golden State a tough time.

to topple GS ?

Can't hit buzzer beater game winners when you simply annihilate the other team like the Cavs have been doing to the C's.

LeBron is a monster. Only needed 33 mins tonight to drop 30 points, dish 7 assists, grab 4 boards, block 3 shots, and grab 4 steals.

I thought it was the booze @ first before I took a second look.

LeBron...my God. He is on a freaking mission.

Absolutely something worthy of the 2nd greatest player of all time