Cavs lead 30-19 after 1.
LeBron has 15/3/2/1 after the first quarter on 7-8 from the field.
The Celtics are putting a big on him and he's just toying with them, taking it to the hoop at will. Incredible to see that level of athleticism this late in his career.
I'm done getting involved in the GOAT conversations when it comes to the NBA, but Jordan being frail is something that's so preposterous it can only come from someone with a huge agenda/axe to grind.
Artest was/is an absolute tank. If he's impressed by how strong you are, you're strong.
Kawhi is a guy who stares LeBron in the eyes and doesn't blink. Jordan was every bit as strong and on another tier athletically from Kawhi, while having the same size hands.
Greatness is determined when everything is on the line. The highest stakes
1- name a single bad Jordan playoff series? Let alone the NBA Finals where he won all 6 Finals MVPs
2- this wasn't just any series. This was the NBA Finals that LeBron had set himself up for yeArs for. Free Agency, the Decision. Forming the mega team of the Big 3 at the Prime of his career under Riley's guidance. He rsised the stakes himself. Not 1. Not 2. Not 3. Not 4 etc promising 7 NBA titles with that group.
He formed the Big 3, left Cleveland creating a massive blowback and took his "talents" to Miami in order to win his first NBA title.
The stakes couldn't have been higher.
And he crumbled. Repeatedly. Game after game.
In comment 13474675 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Welp, that settles it...
LeBron had one poor series 6 years ago so we've got to just end this conversation right now! He'll never be worthy!
This is such a stupid post.
It completely ignores the 500 ridiculously clutch moments and trophies he has hoisted since.
Yes, Jordan actually did have some poor playoff performances believe it or not. He didn't drop 30 and shoot 50% from the field every single time he set foot on the court.
Whoever called Jordan "frail" really threw a stupid wrench in this discussion.. outrageous thing to say.
But the way people still bend over backwards to try and discredit LeBron is so utterly ridiculous at this point. You're holding something from 6 years ago against him despite the fact that he's been absolutely money and has won 3 chips since. Stop it. That's lowest common denominator fan shit. It's so ridiculous.
Tell that to the voters.
Melo is a surefire Hall of Famer.
Still a Hall of Famer though. T-Mac was definitely a better player at his best, but Melo's career totals will be significantly higher. Melo will go down as a less athletic/memorable 'Nique.
I learned the hard way what one historically transcendent player can really do on the court. When 20% of your on-court personnel is arguably the second best player ever and aiming to be considered as the best, that definitely tilts the court in your favor.
I don't know what you can do to achieve any semblance of parity in a sport where that sort of impact from transcendent talents is possible, and I'm fine with it because I think parity sucks.
I don't see how they beat the Warriors this year
Oh, I do... in my sleep, I do.
Greatness is determined when everything is on the line. The highest stakes
1- name a single bad Jordan playoff series?
1995 against Orlando - eliminated in semis.
Man, can you imagine the shit hurled at LeBron if he lost in the semis at this point in his career? No mammal on earth can produce shit that large.
Quote:
Yes it does.
Greatness is determined when everything is on the line. The highest stakes
1- name a single bad Jordan playoff series?
\
1995 against Orlando - eliminated in semis.
Man, can you imagine the shit hurled at LeBron if he lost in the semis at this point in his career? No mammal on earth can produce shit that large.
lol I mean he just came out of retirement that year
He had a game the following season in the ECF where he shot like 26% from the field.
He did have off nights, it's just that time has largely erased them from most peoples memories.
Quote:
In comment 13474832 twostepgiants said:
Quote:
Yes it does.
Greatness is determined when everything is on the line. The highest stakes
1- name a single bad Jordan playoff series?
\
1995 against Orlando - eliminated in semis.
Man, can you imagine the shit hurled at LeBron if he lost in the semis at this point in his career? No mammal on earth can produce shit that large.
lol I mean he just came out of retirement that year
How about the 90 conference finals? That doesn't count because...
But in the NBA is absolutely atrocious. 1 guy's impact is so large that when teamed up with another top 5/10 player or two it just becomes a joke. Durant going to a team with a top 3 player and two other top 15 players is a travesty.
But in the NBA is absolutely atrocious. 1 guy's impact is so large that when teamed up with another top 5/10 player or two it just becomes a joke. Durant going to a team with a top 3 player and two other top 15 players is a travesty.
It's just the inherent nature of the sport. Baseball isn't really as much as a team game as much as it is the individual sum of the parts of a roster. In basketball, 4 quarters does not equal a dollar. Football has too many moving parts for any one player (outside maybe the QB) to have a significant impact. Plus so much in football depends on scheme and playcalling. So the Eagles acquiring all those pro bowlers during the Dream Team year was much ado about nothing.
In comparison, the past two NBA finals featured the same matchup between the Cavs and the Warriors. Before that, the Spurs and the Heat faced off in consecutive finals. The Heat played in four straight finals. The Lakers played in three straight finals before that. The last finals that didn't involve at least one of the Cavaliers, Spurs, Heat, or Lakers was the Bulls-Jazz final in 1998.
In comparison, the past two NBA finals featured the same matchup between the Cavs and the Warriors. Before that, the Spurs and the Heat faced off in consecutive finals. The Heat played in four straight finals. The Lakers played in three straight finals before that. The last finals that didn't involve at least one of the Cavaliers, Spurs, Heat, or Lakers was the Bulls-Jazz final in 1998.
You could condense that to be the last finals that did not involve Lebron, Kobe or Timmy.
It's absurd that DeAndre Jordan got 3 first team votes and that he made 3rd team over guys like Marc Gasol and KAT. I also disagree with IT over Wall but that's personal preference.
But beyond that, how on Earth does LeBron get a 2nd team vote and Kawhi a 3rd team vote?
Eventually, the full ballots will be released, but that seems completely indefensible.
I can even understand the lone Curry over Westbrook because I think Curry is the best guard in the League, but a 2nd team vote for LeBron? A 3rd for Kawhi? What is going on?!?!?
I asked for a Series. You came up with a game.
A singular game.
The best you can come up with is a game that Jordan won, in a Series he won and a Series he won MVP of?
I'm talking about the entire 2011 NBA Finals.
In comment 13475349 arcarsenal said:
He had a game the following season in the ECF where he shot like 26% from the field.
He did have off nights, it's just that time has largely erased them from most peoples memories.
And you want to compare this to the year LeBron had his long awaited free agency and formed the Big 3 and self declared he would win 7 titles?
Really? You think that is a fair representation of Michael Jordan as a player? Or peak Jordan?
There's a reason why I don't mention LeBrons performance in his first Finals other than as a star that he appeared in it. It's not a fair representation of his peak to consider for GOAT.
Considering the circumstances and context of what Jordan did in 1995, what he accomplished was pretty amazing and should be held to his credit and not his detriment.
But if you need a less than 100% Jordan to compare to LeBron then I think that answers the GOAT question.
In comment 13475333 santacruzom said:
Quote:
Yes it does.
Greatness is determined when everything is on the line. The highest stakes
1- name a single bad Jordan playoff series?
\
1995 against Orlando - eliminated in semis.
Man, can you imagine the shit hurled at LeBron if he lost in the semis at this point in his career? No mammal on earth can produce shit that large.
I asked for a Series. You came up with a game.
A singular game.
The best you can come up with is a game that Jordan won, in a Series he won and a Series he won MVP of?
I'm talking about the entire 2011 NBA Finals.
In comment 13475349 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Jordan went 5-19 from the field and turned the ball over 5 times in the Finals clinching win against Seattle in 96.. but no one cared because they won.
He had a game the following season in the ECF where he shot like 26% from the field.
He did have off nights, it's just that time has largely erased them from most peoples memories.
Did you notice what you did?
You disregarded 6 years of work, 3 Championships, and 3 Finals MVP's to diminish an entire career based on one series.
And by the way, LeBron was not bad in every game of that Dallas series.
On what planet is 24/9/5 on 56% from the field and 4/5 from behind the arc considered bad?
Or a triple double in Game 5. I guess that's bad, too.
LeBron had one truly awful game in that series and was below his general standard. It was his first year in Miami and pretty clearly an outlier.
Diminishing every single thing he's done since then is just sour grapes from someone who refuses to admit the incredible career he's had. Hang onto it if you'd like - I'll continue to enjoy watching the best player on planet earth right now continue to do what he does.
Jordan never had the memorably bad postseason series or performances that LeBron occasionally had, and LeBron never has to deal with the notion that Jordan was 1-9 in playoff series without Pippen.
Jordan didn't have "The Decision" mis step and didn't have to leave the team who drafted him and team up with other stars to win a championship. Yet, LeBron wasn't gifted an incredible situation with incredible teammates throughout his career and arguably the greatest star coach in NBA history.
Jordan had to score and play in a much more violent and physical league who used the "Jordan rules" to beat up on him. LeBron had to play in an era with zone defense and a far more expansive and globalized pool of talent.
Jordan never got caught head-snapping or criticized for whining to the refs, while LeBron has to deal with the most media pressure (24/7 sports channels, social media, HD cameras in every cell phone) perhaps any athlete has ever faced.
Both players are two of the most dominant players in the history of the game. They played in different eras in different circumstances with completely different styles.
You take one, I'll take the other.
*his Toon Squad teammates notwithstanding
Jordan never had the memorably bad postseason series or performances that LeBron occasionally had, and LeBron never has to deal with the notion that Jordan was 1-9 in playoff series without Pippen.
Jordan didn't have "The Decision" mis step and didn't have to leave the team who drafted him and team up with other stars to win a championship. Yet, LeBron wasn't gifted an incredible situation with incredible teammates throughout his career and arguably the greatest star coach in NBA history.
Jordan had to score and play in a much more violent and physical league who used the "Jordan rules" to beat up on him. LeBron had to play in an era with zone defense and a far more expansive and globalized pool of talent.
Jordan never got caught head-snapping or criticized for whining to the refs, while LeBron has to deal with the most media pressure (24/7 sports channels, social media, HD cameras in every cell phone) perhaps any athlete has ever faced.
Both players are two of the most dominant players in the history of the game. They played in different eras in different circumstances with completely different styles.
You take one, I'll take the other.
*his Toon Squad teammates notwithstanding
Good post.
How about the 2014 NBA Finals? Yes, his stats were fine but come on. Anyone who watched knows the truth. The Heat lost all 4 games by about 20 pts or more each. Im sorry but the GOAT just doesnt have a team that is blown off the court and non-competing each and every game of the NBA Finals. Those games were all over by halftime.
I'd also add, that LeBron biggest knock is he just hasn't the big shot to win a title or had that big offensive outburst in the 4Q to win the title. He just hasnt. It was Ray Allen who hit the shot vs the Spurs. Last year, LeBron played great no doubt in all facets of the game. But lets be honest, Kyrie irvin hit all the clutch 4Q shots and the title winner.
This year, I check in on game 4 vs.toronto. The Raptors take a lead on a huge 3 and the place is going nuts with 5 mins left. Im like, lets see what LeBron does. Well, it was Kyrie Irvin who railed off 11 straight points. This goes unmentioned by the announcers. Then LeBron hits a 3 to put them up 13 and the announcers go nuts about his 'clutch" shot.
He has been in 7 NBA Finals. Its not like he hasnt had ample opportunity to offensively takeover a pivotal game in one of these series in the 4Q or hit the big shot to win it.
James actually missed the 3 Pter in game 6 vs. Spurs down 3 that Bosh got the rebound from for the famous Ray Allen shot.
Last year in G7, With the game ties at 89-89 with 4 mins to go, LeBron missed 3 seperate shots to put his team up. That's why Irvin's 3 with 50 secs left was so big. James was 0-3 on potential game winners.
There is no flu game here. There is no 6 3pter barrage game here. There is no Byron Russell shot Equivalent shot here. There is no buzzer beater to win in game 1 of Finals equivalent here either. Instead we have the 2011 and 2014 NBA Finals.
Also - it's Kyrie Irving. Not Irvin.
Anyway, you just chose to completely gloss over countless memorable playoff performances - including a couple from just last year where he led the Cavs back from a 3-1 series deficit to win the title.
He wasn't the Finals MVP three times by accident.
The way you're attempting to completely diminish the career of one of the greatest players in NBA history makes it impossible to even have this conversation in a reasonable manner.
You have zero credibility. I'm sorry. You do.
I dont care about stats. Stats are and are often misleading, he was a complete non factor in those games when they were decided. He was committing fouls, turnovers, looking like he wanted no part of any big shot down the stretch in games 3-6. James scored 9'of the first 14 Miami points and still finished with just 21 in the G6 elimination game . It was terrible. he scored just 17 pts in G5, a 2-2 Series, in a game he tweeted out was "the biggest of his career". He shot just 36% in Games 3-6. Seriously. Just stop with the it was one bad game.
The GOAT isnt about stats. Its about the ability to be the best when everyone is at their best and all eyes and all attention are on that moment and that situation. Everyone playing at their peak, and you still cant be stopped. That's Jordan. Not James.
The 2011 NBA Finals are the lowest moment of James career and its not because of 1 game in that Series.
Game 5, 2016 vs GSW, facing elimination, LeBron posted 41/16/7/3
Game 6, 2012 vs BOS, facing elimination, LeBron posted 45/15/5
Game 5, 2007 vs DET, LeBron scored 29 of the Cavs final 30 points in a game where he went 48/9/7 in a win and took a pitiful Cavs team to the Finals
Game 6, 2013, facing elimination in the Finals vs SA, Ray Allen's shot doesn't matter if LeBron doesn't post 32/11/10 and come up big with the season on the line.
Game 1, 2013 ECF vs IND, LeBron posts 30/10/10 to go along with the game winner at the buzzer
Game 2, 2009 ECF vs. ORL, hits a contested fadeaway 3 at the buzzer from the top of the arc to win the game on a night where he posted 35/5/4
But yeah.. no big moments. Can't come through in the clutch.
I guess when you're a Jordan dickrider, you'll simply ignore anything that doesn't fit your narrative though.
I said he had one truly awful game in that series and that the series was below his standard as a whole.
I simply pointed out that he wasn't bad in every single game. He wasn't. Facts are facts.
But if you want to continue to harp on a series from 6 years ago and ignore what he's done recently, go on ahead. I'm not changing your mind.
Jordan, LeBron and magic andBird and Kareem and Kobe, etc.
They all have countless incredible and magnificent playoff moments and games and series.
By definition to discuss the Goat, you have to leave out some and slice the apple really thin to a few key points and moments.
There is a reason that Michael Jordan was announced at his HOF induction in front of his peers as "by acclimation the greatest basketball of all time". Even they acknowledge that he is the greatest.
Ask yourself deep down, Game 7 of the NBA Finals. You are trailing by 1 point with 3 seconds left and you have the ball. So no time for someone else to grab rebounds or tip ins or get another shot. Its just one shot. Deep down, do you really think LeBron James is hitting that shot?
I, deep down, know and believe that Michael Jordan will hit that shot. That's why he is the GOAT.
You are collapsing the entire thing down into "who has a better chance of hitting a game winning shot?"
There is so much more to being great than how many game winning shots you can hit.
Of course it's Michael. He was a better shooter than LeBron. He was a better pure scorer. That was the strongest aspect of his game. That's not LeBron's game. He's not a sharpshooter.
LeBron impacts the game differently than Michael. If all you can do is reduce LeBron to "he's not good at hitting game winning shots," then there's really no discussion to be had here because there is so much more to the game than that.
I dont watch any of the sports show or even read any of these sites. I simply watch the games.
Ive watched the entirety of Jordans career and James career. I believe that James is likely the 2nd greatest player of all time. But there is a large distance between him and Jordan. I think James is closer to magic and Kareem and its pretty close to where they rank.
In comment 13475702 David in LA said:
Clearly by your answer you don't believe he would.
Your excuses revolve around him not being a sharpshooter. Or whatever.
The guy is a career 27 ppg scorer and I cant ask whether or not he can deliver a game winning shot?
Somehow Im supposed to be impressed by his ability to drop 41 in game 3 of a second series he is up 2-0 against the raptors or some other overmatched team but just forget about him missing say 3 consecutive shots to take the lead in G7 of th Finals of a tie game?
I guess driving to the hoop or dunking is not a possibility? There are a lot of ways to score besides "sharpshooting", which BTW was a knock on Jordan that he wasn't very good at it until the second half of his career.
My point is that to hit a game winning shot, the odds are going to be heavily favored towards a guy who is a better pure shooter. Michael was a better shooter than LeBron which you seem to think means he better overall by this huge margin.
I've seen LeBron win games at the buzzer. I've seen him come up huge in elimination games. I've seen him carry bad teams. He can pretty clearly do it.
Or before 2011, for that matter.
2011 is definitely his outlier.
I'd also add, that LeBron biggest knock is he just hasn't the big shot to win a title or had that big offensive outburst in the 4Q to win the title. He just hasnt. It was Ray Allen who hit the shot vs the Spurs. Last year, LeBron played great no doubt in all facets of the game. But lets be honest, Kyrie irvin hit all the clutch 4Q shots and the title winner.
Oh man, you missed a phenomenal, potentially game-saving block by LeBron in the final minutes of game 6 last year. Or is it just that you have no memory of that block? If that's the case, I envy you.
Quote:
I'd also add, that LeBron biggest knock is he just hasn't the big shot to win a title or had that big offensive outburst in the 4Q to win the title. He just hasnt. It was Ray Allen who hit the shot vs the Spurs. Last year, LeBron played great no doubt in all facets of the game. But lets be honest, Kyrie irvin hit all the clutch 4Q shots and the title winner.
Oh man, you missed a phenomenal, potentially game-saving block by LeBron in the final minutes of game 6 last year. Or is it just that you have no memory of that block? If that's the case, I envy you.
The block in game 5 and 6 were both of the soul crushing variety.
Jordan has had some of the greatest blocks Ive ever seen and is a defensive player of the year and 9 time all first team defense. He was legit the best defensive player in the league or close for awhile.
Look at this block of Patrick Ewing (and its not the more famous revenge block of Ewing) , one of the 50 greatest players of all time and a 7 footer and tell me that Jordan cant make a block of Andre Iguoala?
Jordan had the second highest vertical jump in NBA history at 46 inches. Why cant he make this block?
Jordan blocks Ewing - ( New Window )
Jordan never had the memorably bad postseason series or performances that LeBron occasionally had, and LeBron never has to deal with the notion that Jordan was 1-9 in playoff series without Pippen.
Jordan didn't have "The Decision" mis step and didn't have to leave the team who drafted him and team up with other stars to win a championship. Yet, LeBron wasn't gifted an incredible situation with incredible teammates throughout his career and arguably the greatest star coach in NBA history.
Jordan had to score and play in a much more violent and physical league who used the "Jordan rules" to beat up on him. LeBron had to play in an era with zone defense and a far more expansive and globalized pool of talent.
Jordan never got caught head-snapping or criticized for whining to the refs, while LeBron has to deal with the most media pressure (24/7 sports channels, social media, HD cameras in every cell phone) perhaps any athlete has ever faced.
Both players are two of the most dominant players in the history of the game. They played in different eras in different circumstances with completely different styles.
You take one, I'll take the other.
*his Toon Squad teammates notwithstanding
This is an excellent post
People who think it's not close or that the idea is laughable (in either direction - this actually started because someone claimed LeBron was far superior to Jordan) are the ones who drive me insane.
LeBron is going to be back in the Finals this year with a chance to grab ring #4 at age 32 and he still has a good amount left in the tank judging by the way he's going right now.
When all is said and done, you bet your ass there's going to be a legitimate discussion about which guy was better.
LeBron could win 4 more Championships and people like twostepgiants will still say "yeah, but 2011 he had that one bad series!" That's the problem with these discussions. Some people have their heels dug so far in that they can't be reasonable.
Jordan has had some of the greatest blocks Ive ever seen and is a defensive player of the year and 9 time all first team defense. He was legit the best defensive player in the league or close for awhile.
Look at this block of Patrick Ewing (and its not the more famous revenge block of Ewing) , one of the 50 greatest players of all time and a 7 footer and tell me that Jordan cant make a block of Andre Iguoala?
Jordan had the second highest vertical jump in NBA history at 46 inches. Why cant he make this block? Jordan blocks Ewing - ( New Window )
Athletically, I'm sure he was. Lots of current players are. But to recognize what was going to happen and time it so perfectly like that isn't to be taken for granted. And applying your logic of "if he could have, he would have" would have to mean that we should assume Jordan couldn't execute a coast to coast block of that caliber, since he has no examples proving otherwise.