Cavs lead 30-19 after 1.
LeBron has 15/3/2/1 after the first quarter on 7-8 from the field.
The Celtics are putting a big on him and he's just toying with them, taking it to the hoop at will. Incredible to see that level of athleticism this late in his career.
Ive seen the entirety of Jordans career and Lebrons. Thousands of games. Ive made my judgement about whom I think is better out of the two. How much more is there to know about them?
Other than checking off the list of accomplishments box? I don't necessarily even see longevity as part of the equation for GOAT. Its the greatest, I think you can even be the GOAT even for a moment, theoretically. The greatest is the greatest. No one better, Kinda like how you could say win the long jump more times than anyone at the Olympics but one guy one time jumps further and you are the record holder, no one has ever jumped further.
That said, you are just as extremist as you criticize. Ive stated on this thread that I think James is the 2nd greatest player in NBA history, and you act like Ive issued some sort of blasphemy against him.
In comment 13475788 arcarsenal said:
People who think it's not close or that the idea is laughable (in either direction - this actually started because someone claimed LeBron was far superior to Jordan) are the ones who drive me insane.
LeBron is going to be back in the Finals this year with a chance to grab ring #4 at age 32 and he still has a good amount left in the tank judging by the way he's going right now.
When all is said and done, you bet your ass there's going to be a legitimate discussion about which guy was better.
LeBron could win 4 more Championships and people like twostepgiants will still say "yeah, but 2011 he had that one bad series!" That's the problem with these discussions. Some people have their heels dug so far in that they can't be reasonable.
I mean.. if you can't clearly see how ridiculous that is, we really have nothing more to discuss.
You actually didn't say LeBron was the 2nd greatest player of all time. You said he likely was - and you said there's a large gap between Jordan and LeBron. There is not.
What's funny is that you said this:
The GOAT isnt about stats. Its about the ability to be the best when everyone is at their best and all eyes and all attention are on that moment and that situation
Does Jordan fit that criteria? Yes. Guess who else does: LeBron James.
If you need a reminder, go ahead and re-watch last years Finals.
You've been pulling things out of your ass this entire conversation. Claiming that "Kyrie Irvin" was the one who hit every big 4th Q shot in the Finals last year.
In the 4th Q of Game 6 last year, LeBron scored 17 points. Kyrie? 1 point.
I have a professional background in sports and am not unqualified to make a talent evaluation. You know nothing about me.
I believe there is a large gap between Jordan and LeBron. You state definately that "there is not". In case you dont know, this opinion on the GOAT is subjective and not objective. There is not way to tell definitively. You seem to think there is. It is in the eye of the beholder. I have enough of a background to hold a qualified opinion.
I think LeBron is closer to Magic, Kareem, Bird and others but holds an edge on them. Im less certain about this. Im not sure why this is problematic.
yeah, LeBron had a great G6. A game that was basically a blow out the whole way, obviously in large part because of his play. Cave were up 20 in the 3rd. Double digits basically the whole 4Q. LeBron has often excelled in these type of situations. There is not much to be gained in terms of an evaluation from this type of scenario, in terms of evaluating between the 2nd greatest and greatest players of all time.
Where LeBron hasn't succeeded as much is the tight 4Q championship deciding round where his team is trailing by a bucket or tied or up maybe a bucket. This is where all the pressure is.
if you need with this example, think of the FG kicker. There is a monstrous difference between a FG down by 2 with 1 second left and a FG up or down 13 pts at any point in a game. Let alone a game deciding FG in a Super Bowl.
I already pointed out how LeBron missed all 3 opportunities that presented in G7, how he missed in the past NBA Finals.
In comment 13475820 arcarsenal said:
I mean.. if you can't clearly see how ridiculous that is, we really have nothing more to discuss.
You actually didn't say LeBron was the 2nd greatest player of all time. You said he likely was - and you said there's a large gap between Jordan and LeBron. There is not.
What's funny is that you said this:
The GOAT isnt about stats. Its about the ability to be the best when everyone is at their best and all eyes and all attention are on that moment and that situation
Does Jordan fit that criteria? Yes. Guess who else does: LeBron James.
If you need a reminder, go ahead and re-watch last years Finals.
You've been pulling things out of your ass this entire conversation. Claiming that "Kyrie Irvin" was the one who hit every big 4th Q shot in the Finals last year.
In the 4th Q of Game 6 last year, LeBron scored 17 points. Kyrie? 1 point.
Yeah, you conveniently worded it so that you left out the 3 pointer he hit right before that when CLE was trailing 87-86 with under 5 minutes to play.
You are making everything about scoring. You keep saying LeBron doesn't handle pressure well but there are countless instances of this being untrue.
You've narrowed your criteria to the point where basically anything short of hitting a game winning shot at the buzzer in a Game 7 of the NBA finals isn't clutch. His block on Igoudala was a game-changing play. CLE most likely loses that game (and the series) if he doesn't make that play.
You can impact a basketball game in ways besides scoring - I'm surprised a professional talent evaluator such as yourself is struggling so much with that concept.
The majority of your evidence also seems to be anecdotal. You point out instances where LeBron has missed shots in situations you consider clutch, but leave out ones he's made. You've also provided no context at all.
If you can show me actual evidence (beyond simply cherry picking) that LeBron routinely has struggled more than other great NBA players in clutch situations - I'd certainly be interested in seeing it.
Because this is what I've found - and it doesn't seem to jive with what you're claiming.
In the playoffs LeBron has now taken 10 potential go-ahead shots in the final five seconds of the fourth quarter or overtime. He's connected on six of them, according to ESPN's Brian Windhorst. Jordan was 5-of-11 in such situations during his career.
The above is from 2015 - LeBron has since come up big in more moments where the spotlight shined brightest and took home another Finals MVP.
You keep harping on the block. It was a great play. No doubt. It's obviously the greatest moment of his career. But your intensity about it only proves my point more. The clutchness of his defensive play matters, right?
You say they would have lost without it? Why? Clev would be down 2 with about 140 left and the ball. That's a loss? News to me. Down 2 with 140 in ball is a loss? Really?
Because what you are saying is the moment and the context really matter.
At that point of the game. In that situation. In that moment of the game and series with those stakes, James makes that play and it do effects his opppndnts that his team will win.
You are proving my criteria.
Tell the 2 pts down with 140 to go is a loss to Jordan because he was down 3 with 40 secs in G6 vs Utah. He subsequently drove the ball down court in secs to get a layup quickly so he could get a 2-for-1 to ensure getting the bell back. Then he steals the ball from Karl Malone on the Jazz possession with 17 to go and then comes down and hits the shot on Russell to win the title. Down 3 with 40 to go. That's how he won his 6th NBA title. 3 plays in 40 secs.
But it's interesting that you see it as a Cavs loss if the Warriors took the lead with 140 or so to go.
The 2014 Finals was a disgrace. Losing by the largest margin in the history of the league. Blown out 4 times. Games over by halftime? Come on man.
This never would have happened to a Jordan led team. He wouldn't allow it. He punched teammates in practice for going too easy.
You've said that LeBron makes his teammates better, well what the heck happened there? And how doesn't it fall on his shoulders?
Game 5, 2016 vs GSW, facing elimination, LeBron posted 41/16/7/3
Game 6, 2012 vs BOS, facing elimination, LeBron posted 45/15/5
Game 5, 2007 vs DET, LeBron scored 29 of the Cavs final 30 points in a game where he went 48/9/7 in a win and took a pitiful Cavs team to the Finals
Game 6, 2013, facing elimination in the Finals vs SA, Ray Allen's shot doesn't matter if LeBron doesn't post 32/11/10 and come up big with the season on the line.
Game 1, 2013 ECF vs IND, LeBron posts 30/10/10 to go along with the game winner at the buzzer
Game 2, 2009 ECF vs. ORL, hits a contested fadeaway 3 at the buzzer from the top of the arc to win the game on a night where he posted 35/5/4
But yeah.. no big moments. Can't come through in the clutch.
I guess when you're a Jordan dickrider, you'll simply ignore anything that doesn't fit your narrative though.
His Game 6 performance in Boston in the '12 ECF was freaking epic. There was a lot of chatter leading up to that game re. him & man did he deliver.
He had a bad series 6 years ago? Okay.
He missed a few shots in the 4th quarter of a Finals game? Okay - so has every other great player in the history of the league if they were fortunate enough to even be in that position.
Show me something that actually backs up what you're claiming besides your own biased, anecdotal evidence.
So far, all you've continued to do is conveniently shift criteria and focus so that it fits your narrative and eliminate/ignore everything that doesn't jive with it.
It's still a team sport. What did Jordan ever accomplish before he had Pippen aside from getting road blocked by the Pistons? Why didn't he just punch his teammates in the face and make them play better?
Look, you obviously don't like LeBron James the person. You made that evident from the very beginning here with the swipes at the decisions, the "not 1, not 2..." stuff, etc. that have nothing to do with his actual playing resume. You're obviously biased.
We're not going to get anywhere here. Waste of time.
Enjoy your weekend.
Quote:
Let's see..
Game 5, 2016 vs GSW, facing elimination, LeBron posted 41/16/7/3
Game 6, 2012 vs BOS, facing elimination, LeBron posted 45/15/5
Game 5, 2007 vs DET, LeBron scored 29 of the Cavs final 30 points in a game where he went 48/9/7 in a win and took a pitiful Cavs team to the Finals
Game 6, 2013, facing elimination in the Finals vs SA, Ray Allen's shot doesn't matter if LeBron doesn't post 32/11/10 and come up big with the season on the line.
Game 1, 2013 ECF vs IND, LeBron posts 30/10/10 to go along with the game winner at the buzzer
Game 2, 2009 ECF vs. ORL, hits a contested fadeaway 3 at the buzzer from the top of the arc to win the game on a night where he posted 35/5/4
But yeah.. no big moments. Can't come through in the clutch.
I guess when you're a Jordan dickrider, you'll simply ignore anything that doesn't fit your narrative though.
His Game 6 performance in Boston in the '12 ECF was freaking epic. There was a lot of chatter leading up to that game re. him & man did he deliver.
Yup. Legendary performance. Apparently it's no flu game, though...
How about the 2014 NBA Finals?
I'd also add, that LeBron biggest knock is he just hasn't the big shot to win a title or had that big offensive outburst in the 4Q to win the title. He just hasnt. It was Ray Allen who hit the shot vs the Spurs. Last year, LeBron played great no doubt in all facets of the game. But lets be honest, Kyrie irvin hit all the clutch 4Q shots and the title winner.
He has been in 7 NBA Finals. Its not like he hasnt had ample opportunity to offensively takeover a pivotal game in one of these series in the 4Q or hit the big shot to win it.
James actually missed the 3 Pter in game 6 vs. Spurs down 3 that Bosh got the rebound from for the famous Ray Allen shot.
But the part I bolded is an absolute joke. LeBron NEVER took over in the 4th? It was only because of Ray Allen that they won that game?
Let me remind you of what happened in the "Ray Allen Game".
- SPURS up 75-68 at the start of 4th quarter
- LeBron scores 16 pts
- LeBron scores or assists on EVERY Field Goal in that quarter before Allen's shot
- LeBron hits the eventual GW-shot in OT
Heat Win... and then LeBron drops a monster 37/12/4 in Game 7 to win the title.
2011 is a black mark against LeBron. No debate. But the people who say Ray Allen saved LeBron's ass are foolish at best.
I've used James own words, I haven't said anything personal about him. He set the standard for which he was to be judged. And he went out and had that Finals.
You guys are also picking and choosing. James had a much hyped ECF vs Celtics because of the previous playoff failures. The 2009 and 2010 losses to the Magic and Celtics came as 1 seeds.
That 10 series vs Celts is very similar to the 14 Finals vs Spurs. 4 double digit losses before James left for free agency.
Yeah James had some big games. Or "monster games" as you say. They all do. Jordan averaged 41 ppg in the Finals. That's 6 monster games.
What did Jordan accomplish before Pippen? I doubt Scottie Pippen would even claim that Jordan won because of Pippen.
For one , Jordan won an NCAA title by hitting a game winner with 17 secs left. Sound familiar?
LeBron is a monster. Only needed 33 mins tonight to drop 30 points, dish 7 assists, grab 4 boards, block 3 shots, and grab 4 steals.
LeBron...my God. He is on a freaking mission.