Just trying to spark some opinions.
Assume Fullz, Ball, Fox, Jackson, Tatum are gone.
Monk - I don't think the NYK can afford to take him. Too one dimensional. He'll probably be a good bench scorer. Hindu Theory: Monte Ellis.
Ntilikina - does not look like a PG to me, but I do love his D and shooting stroke based on the clips. Also seems very intuitive in terms of understanding of the game. Great motor. Hindu Theory: Khris Middleton.
Isaac - I think he's a hair better than last years # 2 overall Brandon Ingram but similar. Hindu Theory: Scottie Pippen offensively and an above average (not transcendent)
defender.
Smith - Much discussion in the NYK thread about him. Is he Steve Francis (not a great compliment) or is he a young Derrick Rose? I really do not have a great feel for this player and I know others on this board do so I defer.
Sleepers for NYK Pick:
Donovan Mitchell. Hindu Theory: Avery Bradley.
OG Anunoby. Would be a trade down scenario i.e. # 8 for all of Portland's picks. Hindu Theory: Reminds me of Kahwi Leonard when he came in the league. If we can walk out of the draft with Portland's picks spent on Anunoby + TJ Leaf + Derrick White, that to me is better than getting Monk or Smith.
I kind of like the middleton come although middleton has a few inches on Frank. Middleton's also a 40% 3 point shooter, but I can see frank playing a similar role.
Those guys [Ball and Fultz] are good players. Very, very good. But I think Dennis Smith has Russell Westbrook-type athleticism and is that type of competitor. All he needs is time to learn the next level of basketball.
The Knicks are intrigued by the 6-foot-3, 195-pound guard, but also are concerned about his basketball IQ, defense, his fit in the triangle offense and an ACL tear suffered in high school. Knicks president Phil Jackson also issued an odd remark last month, saying the Knicks werent looking for players in the draft who can jump out of the gym and do a triple-double game.
Link - ( New Window )
I'm not going to pretend I've watched a ton of Franks games, but he does not remind of a more athletic Ginobili. His lack of athleticism is what is worrisome. He doesn't explode past anyway with his first step, isn't a dynamic finisher and his shot release appears to be slow. I know he's only 19 years old, but Manu is/ was incredibly athletic.
I think the Middleton comp is more accurate.
You would be happy with Collins at 8?
Collins defensive potential is much higher than KP's IMO. KP and Willy are both guys that appear to struggle MIGHTILY on switches. I'm not sure those are 2 guys you can keep together on the floor for long stretches.
I like Collins' offensive potential a lot more. Mainly due to shooting (Patton shot 50% from the FT line). Also a better shot blocker.
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A bit thin right now but a plus rebounder, could be a stretch 5 and has a tremendous understanding of verticality. He can also handle PnR switches, slides his feet really well. A Richaun Holmes type.
You would be happy with Collins at 8?
If Isaac and Smith are off the board potentially. Not sure it's a lock I take frank over Collins (although I probably lean towards frank as of now).
Isaac, not a bad idea either. Rebounder - let Porz roam free and shoot the 3s.
Agree about Monk. I think his height is overblown too. He plays taller than 6'3 and has a 6'6 wingspan. The celtics are starting 3 guys under 6'4 in the ECF.
To me it comes down to Monk or Smith. I would be very happy with either. If they trade down or reach for a Collins or Justin Jackson, I will need to buy a new television after the draft.
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with the helium! Get another asset and take the emerging 7 foot beast!
I like Collins' offensive potential a lot more. Mainly due to shooting (Patton shot 50% from the FT line). Also a better shot blocker.
I don't feel strongly either way but I think Patton has a shot to have range out to the 3 point line. 7 footer with 7'3 wingspan that can move like that? Wowzas. Still wish that 8 + 44 for 15, 20, 26 idea someone has was reality. I would do it in one second.
Isaac, not a bad idea either. Rebounder - let Porz roam free and shoot the 3s.
He's not a great ball handler or passer. He's unlikely to be a PG at the next level.
Well glad Phil has clarified his draft strategy to the whole entire world already. Guess that solves that!
Didn't everyone say Phil wouldn't give Noah 4 years? It's unlikely they take a big but until they make the pick it's totally possible they take one. They haven't even worked these guys out and now we know they won't?
Fultz (going #1 overall)
Ball/Jackson (Ball is likely ahead by a nose but that's biased by the Lakers picking)
Then
in some order Fox/Tatum/Isaac/DSJ/Monk (seems like currently the feeling is Fox would be the first one of that group off the board BUT many have tied Monk to the Sixers which obviously would mean Jackson would fall into this tier.
Then
Markkanen, Frenchy, Collins
Then there is a group of guys who could move up or down including
Patton, Mitchell (seems like he's closer to the above 3 than this group given his massive combine buzz), Anunby, Justin Jackson, Anigbogu
WH for Collins or anybody else is at best a lateral move.
WH for Collins or anybody else is at best a lateral move.
Not really. Collins is a more modern big. I love Willy but if Valuncianus gets exposed in the playoffs I fear for Willy who is skinnier and shorter. Need guys that can handle switches. KP can protect the rim but gets toasted when covering guards.
I think they could be huge players this offseason. They have a lot of peripheral assets that may not receive playing time.
Crazy trade that I don't think is unfair for any team involved:
Bulls get: Saric, Okafor, Justin Anderson, Dunn and Philly's 2018 1st.
Wolves get: #3 overall this year, Stauskas and Covington
Sixers get: Lavine, Butler and RoLo
I think that's far and away better than anything Chicago's been offered for Butler recently.
Wolves can dump Lavine for good value and also avoid having to max both him and Wiggins. Can replace him and Dunn with say Josh Jackson, Markannen, Stauskas and Covington.
Sixers can sign Jrue Holiday to put next to Butler, Lavine, Simmons and Embiid. That would be a top 2 seed immediately IMO.
I really hope it's total BS. Like I said I'd be lying if I suggested JJ Redick was not a good player. He IS a good player and for a contending (or wannabe contending) franchise he would be a really solid addition (I'm sure Lebron would be licking his chops to add him to the Cavs for example). But if you look at the market and what the "New NBA $" is all about "solid" players now clear 60 million with ease. I mean some really "average" players received 60+ last year, guys like Mahinmi. It's also part of the reason I hope the Knicks shop Courtney Lee HARD. Courtney Lee is a very solid player on what has become a "team friendly" or "value" contract. 3 years 36? He's likely get close to double that (and an extra year) as a FA. I think a team like Utah which has 2 picks and has trouble luring FA's would be a great fit for Lee and the Knicks could pick up another 1.
WH for Collins or anybody else is at best a lateral move.
I would 100% trade Willy for that. I think he's going to be a backup and not sure you can play him next to KP.
They had a 48% chance of picking top 3.
I'd argue that the lottery overall turned out mildly disappointing for Philly. They missed out on #1 and #2, so they're not getting one of the two best regarded guard prospects; they may be stuck taking a wing without a jumper, which is a problem because of Simmons. They were a coin flip to get the Lakers pick and didnt (and if Magic trades for PG and another vet, the Lakers wont be bottom 3 bad again).
Lee is very solid and could net a late 1st, but let's be honest, he is very average starting for an NBA SG. He hits open 3s and plays good defense. He is an NBA 3 and D wing but probably the most basic version as far as those go.
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Still in disbelief Philly landed yet another top 3 pick, even if it was because of the Kings...
They had a 48% chance of picking top 3.
I'd argue that the lottery overall turned out mildly disappointing for Philly. They missed out on #1 and #2, so they're not getting one of the two best regarded guard prospects; they may be stuck taking a wing without a jumper, which is a problem because of Simmons. They were a coin flip to get the Lakers pick and didnt (and if Magic trades for PG and another vet, the Lakers wont be bottom 3 bad again).
Yeah thats true. I'd trade back if I were philly and grab a shooter like Monk or trade the pick entirely.
Lee is very solid and could net a late 1st, but let's be honest, he is very average starting for an NBA SG. He hits open 3s and plays good defense. He is an NBA 3 and D wing but probably the most basic version as far as those go.
He's extremely average. But I do think something like Lee for Diaw and #24 is a reasonable trade for both sides. Utah also has pick #30 and pick #42. Maybe Lee for Diaw, 30 and 42?
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during the "New NBA $" era (same time as Mahinimi) and got $12M a year on the open market.
Lee is very solid and could net a late 1st, but let's be honest, he is very average starting for an NBA SG. He hits open 3s and plays good defense. He is an NBA 3 and D wing but probably the most basic version as far as those go.
He's extremely average. But I do think something like Lee for Diaw and #24 is a reasonable trade for both sides. Utah also has pick #30 and pick #42. Maybe Lee for Diaw, 30 and 42?
How does Lee fit Utah? They have Hood, Johnson, Burks, and Exum before looking at retaining Hill and Hayward.
I've seen some pundits suggest he's going to get a monster offer. I'm very curious.
"Knicks president Phil Jackson also issued an odd remark last month, saying the Knicks werent looking for players in the draft who can jump out of the gym and do a triple-double game."
So is he targeting the unathletic guys who can't fill out a box score? Great! Here comes Travis Ware 2.0.
this would indicate yet another attempt at making the playoffs instead of a teardown/rebuild. I seem to recall reading that Reddick bought a place in Brooklyn last year. Given the Knicks are run by an idiot, this could have legs.
I think he's going to whoever offers him the most.
I know what the comps are for non-PGs at his height. I just think (1) he might be a PG/lead guard, and (2) he might just be better than the comps.
agree that he makes the most sense on a ready-to-contend team. But how many of those teams can pay him what he might be looking for?
Sadly there is a carrot that other teams can't offer. The Knicks ace in the hole... sign and trade would allow the Knicks to offer Redick more than any other team (outside of the Clippers). Thus we say bye to Melo and Hello Austin and JJ!
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doesn't seem to be a guy that would go to BKN or NYK unless he did not get any good offers elsewhere. Wouldn't even make sense for the Knicks with Lee here.
Sadly there is a carrot that other teams can't offer. The Knicks ace in the hole... sign and trade would allow the Knicks to offer Redick more than any other team (outside of the Clippers). Thus we say bye to Melo and Hello Austin and JJ!
If he trades Melo for Austin Rivers and the right to sign Redick for 5 years 100 million, he better be getting decade worth of future unprotected 1st round picks. Actually if he signs Redick to that deal he should be put in a looney bin immediately.
I know what the comps are for non-PGs at his height. I just think (1) he might be a PG/lead guard, and (2) he might just be better than the comps.
I'm not particularly high on Monk but I think (and I'm clearly in the minority here) I'd take him over Frenchy. Ntilikina is 19 in December (young for sure) but Monk played this season at 18-19 for a major program and put up big numbers. I still have significant worries but we "know" he can really shoot and is an excellent athlete. I bet on athletes over "versatility".
Monk isnt my first choice. But if Frank N really is limited upside, Im a pass on him. And I want a guard if Tatum and Isaac are gone.
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doesn't seem to be a guy that would go to BKN or NYK unless he did not get any good offers elsewhere. Wouldn't even make sense for the Knicks with Lee here.
Sadly there is a carrot that other teams can't offer. The Knicks ace in the hole... sign and trade would allow the Knicks to offer Redick more than any other team (outside of the Clippers). Thus we say bye to Melo and Hello Austin and JJ!
didn't they change the rules on sign-and-trades? Aren't the years and raises you can offer the same as if you were signing the guy outright?
Monk isnt my first choice. But if Frank N really is limited upside, Im a pass on him. And I want a guard if Tatum and Isaac are gone.
I'd be a liar if I said I was some expert on Frenchy but even those who really like him (both on here and "experts") seem to suggest his upside is in fact limited due to his athleticism. I keep seeing versatility, defense, "can guard 3 positions", and potentially good from 3. But I don't think I've seen anyone really say he has "great" upside. I'd suggest the floor is pretty scary considering the ceiling isn't fantastic.
I'm not sure I understand the appeal of a "very young" player who didn't get tons of burn (not his fault or a knock) who likely isn't ready to step into a major role right away who doesn't have monster upside.
Don't give me KP either. He's 7'3, despise the concerns he wasn't "ready" he put up numbers in the #2 league in the world and the upside matched the risk.
I dont think that's too hard to do. Getting a great scorer is hard.
Position fit is becoming less of an issue in the NBA I think. Get 5 guys out there, and 4 better be able to shoot.
Im not all in on Monk, by any means. But he's the sort of swing for the fences pick I'd go for. His ceiling is to be an elite lead guard.
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In comment 13475078 giantsfan44ab said:
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doesn't seem to be a guy that would go to BKN or NYK unless he did not get any good offers elsewhere. Wouldn't even make sense for the Knicks with Lee here.
Sadly there is a carrot that other teams can't offer. The Knicks ace in the hole... sign and trade would allow the Knicks to offer Redick more than any other team (outside of the Clippers). Thus we say bye to Melo and Hello Austin and JJ!
didn't they change the rules on sign-and-trades? Aren't the years and raises you can offer the same as if you were signing the guy outright?
He can get 4 years with 4.5% raises via sign and trade. He's made clear he's looking for the most money (thus the connection to bad teams like us, Nets, Philly) so this idea he wouldn't come here seems to be incorrect. Obviously he likely prefers getting 4 years 80 with a good team, but he may not get that.
He seems like the kind of player who makes sense for a team like Minnesota. If you already have Towns and Wiggins, it makes more sense to pick a shooting and defense guy than if you're the Knicks.
" High-End Spending. In 2017-18, the Tax Apron the amount above the Tax Level that cannot be exceeded by any team that uses the Non-Taxpayer Mid- Level Exception or Bi-annual Exception or acquires a free agent in a sign-and- trade will be increased from $4M greater than the Tax Level to $6M greater than the Tax Level, and this $6M amount will increase or decrease annually beginning in 2018-19 at one-half the rate of the increase or decrease in the Salary Cap."
That's the exact opposite of the approach I would take in the draft. Maybe if your a contender picking at the end of the draft you try to target a "team guy" who will fit in nicely. But when your roster is bereft of talent, I'm swinging for the fences picking 8 at the best athlete/upside guy possible. Get Monk or Smith and I'm happy.
I wouldnt even remotely consider trading Willy and #8 for the #5 or #6 pick.
I think Willy is pretty underrated around here. He's way better than Marc Gasol was at the same point. His defense blows right now, but that is common for Euro bigs and for rookies. His BBIQ is fantastic.
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In comment 13475091 DanMetroMan said:
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In comment 13475078 giantsfan44ab said:
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doesn't seem to be a guy that would go to BKN or NYK unless he did not get any good offers elsewhere. Wouldn't even make sense for the Knicks with Lee here.
Sadly there is a carrot that other teams can't offer. The Knicks ace in the hole... sign and trade would allow the Knicks to offer Redick more than any other team (outside of the Clippers). Thus we say bye to Melo and Hello Austin and JJ!
didn't they change the rules on sign-and-trades? Aren't the years and raises you can offer the same as if you were signing the guy outright?
He can get 4 years with 4.5% raises via sign and trade. He's made clear he's looking for the most money (thus the connection to bad teams like us, Nets, Philly) so this idea he wouldn't come here seems to be incorrect. Obviously he likely prefers getting 4 years 80 with a good team, but he may not get that.
he can get 4 years with 4.5% raises from a team with cap space.
That's the exact opposite of the approach I would take in the draft. Maybe if your a contender picking at the end of the draft you try to target a "team guy" who will fit in nicely. But when your roster is bereft of talent, I'm swinging for the fences picking 8 at the best athlete/upside guy possible. Get Monk or Smith and I'm happy.
I dont have a problem with what Phil said. He's saying that an important part of scouting is finding guys who are coachable and willing to mold their game to what the team is trying to accomplish (Monk just showed he would BTW).
I dont understand how people can filet Melo as a ball stopper who refused Phil's and MDA's offenses, and then roast Phil for pointing out that there is more to the game than just being the best individual talent.
yet he traded for Derrick Rose.
Willy is an ascending big on a VERY cheap deal so he has a lot of value. Only thing that would hold down his value going forward is that there seems to be a surplus of decent bigs in the league these days.
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But I think we are going to get there and I think we keep insisting upon the type of players we want, it is going to be there. But behind the scenes, and the group that we have, my teammate work with Steve Mills, Jamie Matthews, Christian and the people in our scouting, I think we know what we want and we are interested in developing that and turning away from just say this guy can jump out of the gym, this guy can do a triple-double game or dunk the ball. That is not what we are interested in. We are interested in skill players that know how to play together in team form.
yet he traded for Derrick Rose.
To be fair, Rose cant jump out of the gym, run up a triple double, or dunk.
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But I think we are going to get there and I think we keep insisting upon the type of players we want, it is going to be there. But behind the scenes, and the group that we have, my teammate work with Steve Mills, Jamie Matthews, Christian and the people in our scouting, I think we know what we want and we are interested in developing that and turning away from just say this guy can jump out of the gym, this guy can do a triple-double game or dunk the ball. That is not what we are interested in. We are interested in skill players that know how to play together in team form.
That's the exact opposite of the approach I would take in the draft. Maybe if your a contender picking at the end of the draft you try to target a "team guy" who will fit in nicely. But when your roster is bereft of talent, I'm swinging for the fences picking 8 at the best athlete/upside guy possible. Get Monk or Smith and I'm happy.
I dont have a problem with what Phil said. He's saying that an important part of scouting is finding guys who are coachable and willing to mold their game to what the team is trying to accomplish (Monk just showed he would BTW).
I dont understand how people can filet Melo as a ball stopper who refused Phil's and MDA's offenses, and then roast Phil for pointing out that there is more to the game than just being the best individual talent.
His quote makes it sound like he wouldn't want a Westbrook. Melo isn't a good example. Who are these "triple double" guys that aren't "winning" players? It's a false narrative/dumb quote. Guys who "triple double" are all great players. Bad players can luck into a triple double, guys who consistently do that (or similar) are all guys we should want.
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There was a lot of talk at one point that Phil was enamored with Josh Jackson. If the draft were to play out where Fultz, Ball, Monk, and Tatum were to go top 4 in some order, I wonder if Willy would be enough of an incentive for a team like Sacramento or Orlando to move down to 8 at that point.
I wouldnt even remotely consider trading Willy and #8 for the #5 or #6 pick.
I think Willy is pretty underrated around here. He's way better than Marc Gasol was at the same point. His defense blows right now, but that is common for Euro bigs and for rookies. His BBIQ is fantastic.
If we are using the WS/48 metric to compare willy to Gasol, I think it would be fair to say Gasol is the exception and not the rule.
Using the WS/48 metric, Willy is worse than both JV and and Amir Johnson at the same age. Both guys that could not be relied on in the playoffs. JV averaged 22 mpg and amir johnson is averaging 10 minutes per game (logged 5 last night against Cleveland). Amir Johnson a solid defender and a .15 WS/48 player.
And yes, you can project Willy to become a better defender based on age/being a rookie. But let's be realistic. The dude hardly gets off the ground. He gets absolutely blitzed on switches. I think he's a solid post defender but I don't think he will be able to anchor a top notch defense. I think hes more of a 22 mpg player come playoff time.
Johnson was a 4th year pro in his age 22 season. He's a different player than Willy. Willy is a better rebounder and much better scorer. Johnson is a low volume, shoot it from 3 feet and in scorer. I dont totally love the advanced metrics for guys like that -- I feel like the advanced metrics still dont take volume into account well.
In hindsight, are any of those guys players that would prevent you from taking another center? It's hard to even project Willy being a better defender than some of those guys (Zeller particularly).
I think Gasol's D was overrated. I recall reading a persuasive analysis that the key to defense in the modern NBA is elite guard D stopping penetration before it starts. And Memphis with Allen and Conley was superb at that. Gasol and ZBo had much easier jobs than other bigs.
Not saying Gasol wasnt good on D. But he wasnt Deandre or Tyson.
In hindsight, are any of those guys players that would prevent you from taking another center? It's hard to even project Willy being a better defender than some of those guys (Zeller particularly).
Im signed up to see what Willy becomes. With his IQ I think he's worth betting on. Already a fantastic rebounder and crafty as hell down low.
Johnson was a 4th year pro in his age 22 season. He's a different player than Willy. Willy is a better rebounder and much better scorer. Johnson is a low volume, shoot it from 3 feet and in scorer. I dont totally love the advanced metrics for guys like that -- I feel like the advanced metrics still dont take volume into account well.
Yes, but also worse defensively.
My overall point is that good offensive centers post great WS/48 metrics yet can't find floor time when it matters. I don't think Willy is a 40 mpg come playoff time. I think he's a sub 30 minute player when teams go small in the post-season.
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have no idea what Willy would become but my issue with this consistent Marc Gasol comp is 1. The guy was a tubbo that got into significantly better shape, Willy likely gets stronger but the physical change from Gasol was unusual 2. Gasol became one of the best defensive players in the NBA for a stretch. The odds are beyond long that Willy does that.
I think Gasol's D was overrated. I recall reading a persuasive analysis that the key to defense in the modern NBA is elite guard D stopping penetration before it starts. And Memphis with Allen and Conley was superb at that. Gasol and ZBo had much easier jobs than other bigs.
Not saying Gasol wasnt good on D. But he wasnt Deandre or Tyson.
So lets call Gasol's defense in his prime "above average". I can't see Willy getting there.
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using that WH is worse than Amir Johnson, Cody Zeller, JV, Spencer Hawes, Al Jefferson, Enes Kanter and Big Baby Davis at similar ages.
In hindsight, are any of those guys players that would prevent you from taking another center? It's hard to even project Willy being a better defender than some of those guys (Zeller particularly).
Im signed up to see what Willy becomes. With his IQ I think he's worth betting on. Already a fantastic rebounder and crafty as hell down low.
I am too. But Im not holding him to the regard of KP just yet. Willy isn't forcing me to take need over talent.
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In comment 13475203 giantsfan44ab said:
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using that WH is worse than Amir Johnson, Cody Zeller, JV, Spencer Hawes, Al Jefferson, Enes Kanter and Big Baby Davis at similar ages.
In hindsight, are any of those guys players that would prevent you from taking another center? It's hard to even project Willy being a better defender than some of those guys (Zeller particularly).
Im signed up to see what Willy becomes. With his IQ I think he's worth betting on. Already a fantastic rebounder and crafty as hell down low.
I am too. But Im not holding him to the regard of KP just yet. Willy isn't forcing me to take need over talent.
No one said Willy is in KP's class.
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In comment 13475194 DanMetroMan said:
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have no idea what Willy would become but my issue with this consistent Marc Gasol comp is 1. The guy was a tubbo that got into significantly better shape, Willy likely gets stronger but the physical change from Gasol was unusual 2. Gasol became one of the best defensive players in the NBA for a stretch. The odds are beyond long that Willy does that.
I think Gasol's D was overrated. I recall reading a persuasive analysis that the key to defense in the modern NBA is elite guard D stopping penetration before it starts. And Memphis with Allen and Conley was superb at that. Gasol and ZBo had much easier jobs than other bigs.
Not saying Gasol wasnt good on D. But he wasnt Deandre or Tyson.
So lets call Gasol's defense in his prime "above average". I can't see Willy getting there.
I wouldnt write it off. But all he has to be is below average on D to be a very good starting center. Basically, get him out of the "easily exploitable" category of guys like Kanter, and Willy is a really valuable starting piece.
The one that does it for me is Jabari Parker and Middleton. Metrics suggest Parker is a better player than Middleton yet Milwaukee couldn't get out of the .500 range with Parker and had like the 3rd best record in the NBA since Middleton came back. There's still really no way to incorporate defense properly into player evaluation metrics.
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realized how much the metrics love Valanciunas. Makes me have less confidence in them actually projecting "success" when it matters. I mean he's clearly a good player but it doesn't seem to take into account how his flaws impact him in certain matchups.
The one that does it for me is Jabari Parker and Middleton. Metrics suggest Parker is a better player than Middleton yet Milwaukee couldn't get out of the .500 range with Parker and had like the 3rd best record in the NBA since Middleton came back. There's still really no way to incorporate defense properly into player evaluation metrics.
Yeah I mean Valanciunas is obviously good. I don't want to make it sound like I believe he sucks but last 3 seasons WS/48 of .193, Towns .178, Anthony Davis .180. Is there a single team in the NBA that would take him over those two even for one season?
The advanced metrics are also bad at gauging the value of certain extremes. Guys who are so bad defensively that you cant play them dont get dinged hard enough. Guys who are super limited but good at what they can do are often way overvalued (e.g. guys who shoot 60% because they have no attempts from any distance).
I wouldnt worry about that stuff yet. Get talent in. Figure out what you want to do on O and D and see who works out. Give guys 4, 5 years to develop.
I dont see the great teams as having built by making sure that at all times, even during the build, every piece fit perfectly into every slot.
Get good, coachable players. Instill the right values. Experiment with lineups. Develop players.
Ian Begley, ESPN Staff Writer
Depending on the stat, sure.
For sure, NBA draft is much more about best player than the NFL draft.
That said, darn hard to predict who is best player at 8. Whose to say its not a center or a PF?
For sure, NBA draft is much more about best player than the NFL draft.
That said, darn hard to predict who is best player at 8. Whose to say its not a center or a PF?
No, KP struggles defending the perimeter. They would move KP to play more 5 if there was a 4 they wanted to take.
I am not a BBal guy but isn't Porz deadly from the 3?
The Knicks seem allergic to rebounding on O.
Maybe that's 'not the modern game' or something.
That all might be worth the 8th pick - if there is a dominant rebounder for the O side who can kick it out mostly as opposed to the lower value 2 pt layups?
Loser: Phil Jackson and the Knicks
I think that were good at what we do, Phil Jackson told the media after the Knicks landed the eighth pick. Are they really? They probably arent good at what they do at least Jackson hasnt been in his three years as team president since signing a five-year, $60 million contract in March 2014.
Jackson doesnt have much to show for his tenure other than Kristaps Porzingis. He flipped Tim Hardaway Jr., who will get paid this summer, for Jerian Grant, a dud now coming off the Bulls bench. He signed Robin Lopez to a large contract in 2015, then flipped him one year later for Derrick Rose. It seemed like a smart cap-clearing move, but then he signed Joakim Noah to an albatross contract, and made it rain for a journeyman in Courtney Lee. Theyve had four head coaches in that time; none have been able to install the triangle offense to Jacksons liking.
Jacksons moves have been bizarre, to say the least both in the front office and on social media. Willy Hernangmez has exceeded expectations for a second-rounder and undrafted free agent Ron Baker has a chance to stick around on a roster, but in Jacksons three years at the helm, theres only one player on the Knicks roster who is conceivably part of a potential championship core: Porzingis.
The Knicks couldve used some lottery luck to shake off their dysfunction. They didnt get it. They still need to figure out the Carmelo Anthony fiasco. If progress isnt felt this offseason, for the franchise to truly move forward, Knicks owner James Dolan will need to wash his hands of Phil Jackson.
The Knicks seem allergic to rebounding on O.
The Knicks were 3rd in the NBA in offensive rebounds per 100 possessions, and 5th in ORB%. Of players who played 1000 minutes or more, Noah led the NBA in ORB%. Willy was 8th, KOQ 9th. KP was 87. Of guys 6'10 or taller, KP's ORB% was 64th of 76. So it is a weakness for KP. Though its notable that the bottom of the list is populated by the guys who were shooting 3s. Marc Gasol, Gallo, and Dirk are 3 of the bottom 4. And KP is a lot closer to middle of the road than he is to the bottom.
Man, Gasol was pathetic this year offensive rebounding.
Then mainly serving the ball back out from the paint to the 3pt arc as an upside down pt guard ala the triangle? (just a guess at how the triangle can work)
2. To defend the top of the arc as a zone defender would be his only function on the D end of the court.
This would allow Porz to shoot many more 3s on O and block more shots on D.
It also would reduce by 1/3rd (or whatever it is) running distance by your forward and your 'x' and reduce fatigue and wear and tear.
I went to one game in 2015, it was like nobody rebounds on O anymore, to think the Knicks were that high relative to the NBA average, wow, just wow, high time for a renewal of rebounding on O and a half court game!
Then mainly serving the ball back out from the paint to the 3pt arc as an upside down pt guard ala the triangle? (just a guess at how the triangle can work)
2. To defend the top of the arc as a zone defender would be his only function on the D end of the court.
This would allow Porz to shoot many more 3s on O and block more shots on D.
It also would reduce by 1/3rd (or whatever it is) running distance by your forward and your 'x' and reduce fatigue and wear and tear.
Ok, I was soft peddling, so let me be clearer. The Knicks are a very strong offensive rebounding team. Your posts make no sense.
I went to one game in 2015, it was like nobody rebounds on O anymore, to think the Knicks were that high relative to the NBA average, wow, just wow, high time for a renewal of rebounding on O and a half court game!
Oh, you hadnt seen my post. Sorry for being snotty.
Or maybe it was just that one game.
But it seems like (as opposed to 1980s ball) everyone is in such a damn rush to run back on D that (for that one game) they could not be bothered to rebound on O in particular.
It would seem that gaining a rebound on O in particular would be of great importance, in the triangle.
Thinking of dennis rodman.
https://gravityandlevity.wordpress.com/2016/01/05/the-value-of-improved-offensive-rebounding/
People ignore this when they bemoan the lack of boxing out. There are tradeoffs to boxing out. Boxing out made more sense when the whole league was trying to take shots from close in -- because rebounds were predictable and likely to land in just a few spots. Now that they scatter because of all the long range shooting, it's less valuable to box out (and guys also arent physically built to do that inside work much anymore, as they condition themselves to be lean for shooting and perimeter defending).
Link - ( New Window )
Or maybe it was just that one game.
But it seems like (as opposed to 1980s ball) everyone is in such a damn rush to run back on D that (for that one game) they could not be bothered to rebound on O in particular.
It would seem that gaining a rebound on O in particular would be of great importance, in the triangle.
Thinking of dennis rodman.
Honestly I'm not following what your suggesting but many NBA teams have only 1 guy crash the boards and have everyone else get back to prevent fast breaks.
With that said- watch the Cavs play. Thompson kills the offensive glass and providing extra possessions to a team- especially Lebron who seemingly creates a good shot every possession, is very valuable.
''
Looking at the league-average level, the takeaway is this: an NBA team generally improves on offense by about 0.62 points per 100 possessions for each percentage point increase in its offensive rebound rate. This means that if NBA teams were to improve their offensive rebounding from 23% (where it is now) to 30% (where it was a few years ago), they would generally score about 4.3 points more per 100 possessions.
So now the remaining question is this: are teams saving more than 4.3 points per 100 possessions by virtue of their improved transition defense?
''
first referencing the linked article, 3 pt shooting teams benefit more from O rebounds for obvious reasons
second, Porz would be relieved of any and all need to be under the basket on O, improving his # of attempts at 3.
'good rebounding benefit more from the increase'.
maybe back up to 30% 'as a few years ago' or higher (the 1980s?)
it might enable the knicks to use some of its existing pieces more effectively.
keep in mind, in the heyday of the triangle, rebounding was apparently much higher than it is now in the league.
as someone mentioned, stretching out some of the players post shot gives at least some of them a chance to get back quickly.
I think the idea is to combine the new emphasis on 3 pt shooting with the additional chances by having a great dedicated specialist O rebounder that kicks it back out as opposed to put back.
Off to Orlando!
He should retire. We're not going to LV because he cant travel.
I think I hate this more than the Noah signing.
Chasson Randle too. Last year's team was awful. Hopefully it'll be more fun to watch this year given that we have three draft picks.
Based on Phil's comments after the lottery, he sees Willy as a building block and isn't really considering a 4 or 5 in the draft.
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will not participate in LV. Berman claims Phil hates it there.
He should retire. We're not going to LV because he cant travel.
$12 million a year for this. For that money, you could have your pick of nearly any front office guy in the league...I don't care how bad the owner is.
which may be why the triangle doesn't work now. So, we may be higher than the league, but that's probably because Phil wants to go even higher.
but it can cycle back just like running in football, especially as you don't want to waste a porzingas by asking him to live and die by his own rebounds, near the basket, when that's not his thing and he has other stregths
Loose labia? Why the fuck not? Let him play in Orlando. Couldn't hurt.
And geez, Early, Thanasis and Labeyrie. Yikes. Could've had Jokic or Clarkson over Early.
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will not participate in LV. Berman claims Phil hates it there.
I think I hate this more than the Noah signing.
I don't think this is a big deal in the scheme of things, but all this stuff adds up. Woj and others always talk about how a part of being a successful GM is building relationships. Summer league in Vegas is an opportunity for that and Phil clearly has no interest in it.
I don't think this is a big deal in the scheme of things, but all this stuff adds up. Woj and others always talk about how a part of being a successful GM is building relationships. Summer league in Vegas is an opportunity for that and Phil clearly has no interest in it.
It literally does not mean anything at all, but it's something fans (myself included) really look forward to. I'm not sure how participating in it is a negative.
I wait if I'm the Lakers. I'd only consider a deal that takes off salary from the books. Maybe Clarkson and a late 1st for PG? Pacers don't really have leverage. PG will cost less than Cousins did I'd imagine.
Will the Pacers accept Russell and a pick for him?
it cant just be george, they need to add 1 more maybe 2
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George is now a lock to LAL. Do they wait or make a deal for him?
Will the Pacers accept Russell and a pick for him?
In a heartbeat I would think. Not a high pick though, would have to be heavily protected. Indiana holds no cards here.
Isnt it likely that if LA doesnt get him now that IND trades him as a rental to a contender? Isnt there a good chance he ends up happy on that contender and resigns? What if he gets traded to LAC in a 3 way where Blake or Deandre get assets to IND somehow? Or Boston with it's amazing depth?
I dont know about lock. I think LA should put an offer out for him now if they badly want him.
And Cavs. That's the lost part of the "Melo has no value" brigade's argument. The real issue is that the teams he wants to go to have no assets to trade. If LA had a #10 pick and an expiring to match Melo, they'd trade for him in a heartbeat.
Isnt it likely that if LA doesnt get him now that IND trades him as a rental to a contender? Isnt there a good chance he ends up happy on that contender and resigns? What if he gets traded to LAC in a 3 way where Blake or Deandre get assets to IND somehow? Or Boston with it's amazing depth?
I dont know about lock. I think LA should put an offer out for him now if they badly want him.
Sure looks like a lock to me. Working out with Kobe and Randle. Woj reports he already through backchannels has told the Lakers not to bother giving up assets for him because hes such a lock.
Begley seems to (unlike Isola and Berman) have someone in the FO that gives him info. Happy to hear this.
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because he missed the all NBA team and cant be super maxed?
Isnt it likely that if LA doesnt get him now that IND trades him as a rental to a contender? Isnt there a good chance he ends up happy on that contender and resigns? What if he gets traded to LAC in a 3 way where Blake or Deandre get assets to IND somehow? Or Boston with it's amazing depth?
I dont know about lock. I think LA should put an offer out for him now if they badly want him.
Sure looks like a lock to me. Working out with Kobe and Randle. Woj reports he already through backchannels has told the Lakers not to bother giving up assets for him because hes such a lock.
If he's saying that, so be it. I find that somewhat dubious. And I still think he could change his mind if he goes to a contender. Lets say he goes to Boston this summer. LA is a shit show of Ball family nonsense, lack of development, Russell and Ball being weirdos etc. Boston wins 55-62 games and takes the Cavs to 6 or 7 games. PG is just going to bail on that for less money in LA? Maybe that's his intention now, but lets see about later.
Or Miami gets its mitts on him, and Reilly does whatever it is to charm the shit out of him. Meanwhile, the Buss family devolves into litigation, Magic disappears for days at a time to run his other businesses, and Lavar Ball sets up his own youtube show to yell about the Lakers after being banned from Staples Center for life. Maybe PG revisits.
I just dont buy guarantees.
Begley seems to (unlike Isola and Berman) have someone in the FO that gives him info. Happy to hear this.
guess i should start watching some isaac videos then
Gee....why is that? haha
If I'm the Pacers, I hold onto him and hope he makes an all NBA team next year. He's then still eligible for the super max. I'm making him turn down extra 70 mill to go the Lakers.
Conversely I'm not waiting for him if I'm the Lakers because of that. They also don't have pick next year so there's no incentive to be bad again. I'm hoping somehow this situation helps the knicks get something for Melo.
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expected to make a "huge" run at Hayward.
Gee....why is that? haha
Well I want to say whiteness, but I think he played for their coach in college.
what the lakers have going for them is no matter what they do nobody rips them, when magic was hired all we heard was it was a great move, phil was hired who evwryone said the lakers should hire but as soon as he signed with knicks evwrybody ripped. the move...
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as they were forever before. The unsettled nature of the power structure, the fact that Magic Johnson has no more experience running a franchise than Phil Jackson did (and an embarrassing coaching stint too), the fact that their supposed young talent has largely been disappointing....I could definitely see Deej's scenario playing out.
what the lakers have going for them is no matter what they do nobody rips them, when magic was hired all we heard was it was a great move, phil was hired who evwryone said the lakers should hire but as soon as he signed with knicks evwrybody ripped. the move...
To be fair most people applauded the hiring of Phil at first. Myself included. Phil and the Knicks get ripped because they have been awful for his 3 years and Phil's done a bad job.
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as they were forever before. The unsettled nature of the power structure, the fact that Magic Johnson has no more experience running a franchise than Phil Jackson did (and an embarrassing coaching stint too), the fact that their supposed young talent has largely been disappointing....I could definitely see Deej's scenario playing out.
what the lakers have going for them is no matter what they do nobody rips them, when magic was hired all we heard was it was a great move, phil was hired who evwryone said the lakers should hire but as soon as he signed with knicks evwrybody ripped. the move...
Yeah all due respect (and I find your optimism far less annoying than most homers). The VAST majority were loving the Phil hire (media included). Fans were excited. That positivity has eroded. Trust me, Magic would face the same if 3 seasons in the Lakers are in the Knicks situation.
I'm all in on the Ian Clark signing as well. He's looked really good in limited action. Smart player than can shoot. Sign him and flip Lee for a pick this year or next. I really hope they do a true rebuild.
I'm all in on the Ian Clark signing as well. He's looked really good in limited action. Smart player than can shoot. Sign him and flip Lee for a pick this year or next. I really hope they do a true rebuild.
i have defended phil a lot but if he does not go full rebuild i am joining the dark side..
no more. quick fixes, if they suck next year and are young then so be it
Add talent, young and hungry talent. THjr and Grant are legit NBA players, Baker looks solid, KP a stud, Willy could be very good. The scouts seem pretty good. Let them do their thing.
Begley seems to (unlike Isola and Berman) have someone in the FO that gives him info. Happy to hear this.
I would LOVE to draft Isaac, but I think 1 of the 7 teams in front of us will be smart enough to grab him. I'm not going to get my hopes up.
Super Cheap FAs that do as well:
1 Langston Galloway is welcome back as far as I'm concerned
2 James Johnson - actually, he won't be that cheap
3 I always thought Omri Casspi would be a good bench player
4 KJ McDaniels
5 Christian Wood - huge upside just waiting for the right situation/coach to become an impact player
I know its a long way off but I hope they plan for this. Imagine having a young nucleous of KP/ Willy plus 3/4 young building blocks and being able to supplement that with a couple max guys? One can dream....
deaaron fox says he likes the kings, supposedly really good friends with wcs and wants to go to kings
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In comment 13475543 Greg from LI said:
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as they were forever before. The unsettled nature of the power structure, the fact that Magic Johnson has no more experience running a franchise than Phil Jackson did (and an embarrassing coaching stint too), the fact that their supposed young talent has largely been disappointing....I could definitely see Deej's scenario playing out.
what the lakers have going for them is no matter what they do nobody rips them, when magic was hired all we heard was it was a great move, phil was hired who evwryone said the lakers should hire but as soon as he signed with knicks evwrybody ripped. the move...
To be fair most people applauded the hiring of Phil at first. Myself included. Phil and the Knicks get ripped because they have been awful for his 3 years and Phil's done a bad job.
I thought it was a good move too. The only bad thing you could have said about it at the time was that he had no experience as a team president, but that has never really mattered in the NBA.
Sometimes moves that aren't necessarily wrong still don't work out.
Like, this hasn't been bad because Phil doesn't want to do work, or he's out in LA just collecting a check.
He might simply not have the temperament or the patience in his old age to do this job. Part of what makes a competent GM is being adaptable and having an eye on the future. It's spotting trends in how the game is played, and how it might be played in 3-5 years, it's learning how to work with player and agent personalities. For as free-spirited and apparently high minded as Phil Jackson is thought to be, he's been a total curmudgeon about the idea of modern basketball.
Report: Hawks offered Pacers 4 first round picks for Paul George at the trade deadline