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NFT: NYK prospects - Hindu Theory

Pep22 : 5/18/2017 8:07 am
Just trying to spark some opinions.

Assume Fullz, Ball, Fox, Jackson, Tatum are gone.

Monk - I don't think the NYK can afford to take him. Too one dimensional. He'll probably be a good bench scorer. Hindu Theory: Monte Ellis.

Ntilikina - does not look like a PG to me, but I do love his D and shooting stroke based on the clips. Also seems very intuitive in terms of understanding of the game. Great motor. Hindu Theory: Khris Middleton.

Isaac - I think he's a hair better than last years # 2 overall Brandon Ingram but similar. Hindu Theory: Scottie Pippen offensively and an above average (not transcendent)
defender.

Smith - Much discussion in the NYK thread about him. Is he Steve Francis (not a great compliment) or is he a young Derrick Rose? I really do not have a great feel for this player and I know others on this board do so I defer.

Sleepers for NYK Pick:

Donovan Mitchell. Hindu Theory: Avery Bradley.

OG Anunoby. Would be a trade down scenario i.e. # 8 for all of Portland's picks. Hindu Theory: Reminds me of Kahwi Leonard when he came in the league. If we can walk out of the draft with Portland's picks spent on Anunoby + TJ Leaf + Derrick White, that to me is better than getting Monk or Smith.



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Also  
DanMetroMan : 5/18/2017 11:57 am : link
in theory wouldn't a guy who is a poor man defender but sold out to block shots or grab rebounds get an artificial boost?
I think a lot of fans are too worried about fit  
Deej : 5/18/2017 11:59 am : link
who fits in what position. does player X fit perfectly with player y (eg KP and Willy).

I wouldnt worry about that stuff yet. Get talent in. Figure out what you want to do on O and D and see who works out. Give guys 4, 5 years to develop.

I dont see the great teams as having built by making sure that at all times, even during the build, every piece fit perfectly into every slot.

Get good, coachable players. Instill the right values. Experiment with lineups. Develop players.
Yup  
giantsfan44ab : 5/18/2017 12:02 pm : link
Go for talent, not positions. We didn't "need" a PF the year we drafted KP. Everyone thought (including me) we "needed" a PG (e.g. Mudiay).
,  
DanMetroMan : 5/18/2017 12:06 pm : link
One team that's interested in free agent point guard Jrue Holdiay? The Dallas Mavericks. League sources say members of the Mavericks organization view Holiday as a free agent target this summer. Holiday will likely command top dollar on the market and Dallas would probably have to clear some cap space to make Holiday a competitive offer. New Orleans would also like to retain Holiday and can offer him more money than any other team. Some in the Knicks organization are fans of the 26-year-old, though it's unclear just how strong that interest is from New York. The length and amount of Holiday's contract would likely take New York out of the running.

Ian Begley, ESPN Staff Writer
RE: Also  
Deej : 5/18/2017 12:06 pm : link
In comment 13475254 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
in theory wouldn't a guy who is a poor man defender but sold out to block shots or grab rebounds get an artificial boost?


Depending on the stat, sure.
44  
idiotsavant : 5/18/2017 12:23 pm : link
if there was a great power forward could Porz play small forward?.

For sure, NBA draft is much more about best player than the NFL draft.

That said, darn hard to predict who is best player at 8. Whose to say its not a center or a PF?
RE: 44  
giantsfan44ab : 5/18/2017 12:32 pm : link
In comment 13475288 idiotsavant said:
Quote:
if there was a great power forward could Porz play small forward?.

For sure, NBA draft is much more about best player than the NFL draft.

That said, darn hard to predict who is best player at 8. Whose to say its not a center or a PF?


No, KP struggles defending the perimeter. They would move KP to play more 5 if there was a 4 they wanted to take.
The  
DanMetroMan : 5/18/2017 12:41 pm : link
history of picks say late 40's to 60 is absolutely HORRID. I'm sure other teams are aware of this fact but I'd call around and see if anyone were willing to swap an earlier 2 for our 2 2's. Otherwise I'm all about the Eurostash or even the buying for futures and swapping the pick for another teams 2018 2nd rounder
ok, i will read up  
idiotsavant : 5/18/2017 12:41 pm : link
need to learn BBall stuff to converse with my son, a city kid.
what set up would allow a new big to rebound only on O  
idiotsavant : 5/18/2017 12:47 pm : link
and thus allow Porz to stay far out and shoot more 3s on O while (Porz) defending/being near the hoop only on D?

I am not a BBal guy but isn't Porz deadly from the 3?

The Knicks seem allergic to rebounding on O.

Maybe that's 'not the modern game' or something.

That all might be worth the 8th pick - if there is a dominant rebounder for the O side who can kick it out mostly as opposed to the lower value 2 pt layups?
The Ringer Lottery Recap  
TyreeHelmet : 5/18/2017 12:50 pm : link
I'm a big critic of Phil but "Made it rain" for Courtney Lee? He got a very fair contract.

Loser: Phil Jackson and the Knicks

“I think that we’re good at what we do,” Phil Jackson told the media after the Knicks landed the eighth pick. Are they really? They probably aren’t good at what they do — at least Jackson hasn’t been in his three years as team president since signing a five-year, $60 million contract in March 2014.
Jackson doesn’t have much to show for his tenure other than Kristaps Porzingis. He flipped Tim Hardaway Jr., who will get paid this summer, for Jerian Grant, a dud now coming off the Bulls bench. He signed Robin Lopez to a large contract in 2015, then flipped him one year later for Derrick Rose. It seemed like a smart cap-clearing move, but then he signed Joakim Noah to an albatross contract, and made it rain for a journeyman in Courtney Lee. They’ve had four head coaches in that time; none have been able to install the triangle offense to Jackson’s liking.
Jackson’s moves have been bizarre, to say the least — both in the front office and on social media. Willy Hernangómez has exceeded expectations for a second-rounder and undrafted free agent Ron Baker has a chance to stick around on a roster, but in Jackson’s three years at the helm, there’s only one player on the Knicks roster who is conceivably part of a potential championship core: Porzingis.
The Knicks could’ve used some lottery luck to shake off their dysfunction. They didn’t get it. They still need to figure out the Carmelo Anthony fiasco. If progress isn’t felt this offseason, for the franchise to truly move forward, Knicks owner James Dolan will need to wash his hands of Phil Jackson.
RE: what set up would allow a new big to rebound only on O  
Deej : 5/18/2017 12:55 pm : link
In comment 13475332 idiotsavant said:
Quote:

The Knicks seem allergic to rebounding on O.



The Knicks were 3rd in the NBA in offensive rebounds per 100 possessions, and 5th in ORB%. Of players who played 1000 minutes or more, Noah led the NBA in ORB%. Willy was 8th, KOQ 9th. KP was 87. Of guys 6'10 or taller, KP's ORB% was 64th of 76. So it is a weakness for KP. Though its notable that the bottom of the list is populated by the guys who were shooting 3s. Marc Gasol, Gallo, and Dirk are 3 of the bottom 4. And KP is a lot closer to middle of the road than he is to the bottom.

Man, Gasol was pathetic this year offensive rebounding.
That Ringer analysis is terrible  
Deej : 5/18/2017 12:56 pm : link
and Im no Phil fan.
basically a big who has only two functions  
idiotsavant : 5/18/2017 12:59 pm : link
1. To rebound would be his only function on O

Then mainly serving the ball back out from the paint to the 3pt arc as an upside down pt guard ala the triangle? (just a guess at how the triangle can work)

2. To defend the top of the arc as a zone defender would be his only function on the D end of the court.

This would allow Porz to shoot many more 3s on O and block more shots on D.

It also would reduce by 1/3rd (or whatever it is) running distance by your forward and your 'x' and reduce fatigue and wear and tear.
wow, deej  
idiotsavant : 5/18/2017 1:02 pm : link
its like a whole new game since I last watched. (early 1990s)

I went to one game in 2015, it was like nobody rebounds on O anymore, to think the Knicks were that high relative to the NBA average, wow, just wow, high time for a renewal of rebounding on O and a half court game!
RE: basically a big who has only two functions  
Deej : 5/18/2017 1:02 pm : link
In comment 13475350 idiotsavant said:
Quote:
1. To rebound would be his only function on O

Then mainly serving the ball back out from the paint to the 3pt arc as an upside down pt guard ala the triangle? (just a guess at how the triangle can work)

2. To defend the top of the arc as a zone defender would be his only function on the D end of the court.

This would allow Porz to shoot many more 3s on O and block more shots on D.

It also would reduce by 1/3rd (or whatever it is) running distance by your forward and your 'x' and reduce fatigue and wear and tear.


Ok, I was soft peddling, so let me be clearer. The Knicks are a very strong offensive rebounding team. Your posts make no sense.
RE: wow, deej  
Deej : 5/18/2017 1:03 pm : link
In comment 13475356 idiotsavant said:
Quote:
its like a whole new game since I last watched. (early 1990s)

I went to one game in 2015, it was like nobody rebounds on O anymore, to think the Knicks were that high relative to the NBA average, wow, just wow, high time for a renewal of rebounding on O and a half court game!


Oh, you hadnt seen my post. Sorry for being snotty.
12:59  
idiotsavant : 5/18/2017 1:05 pm : link
a draftee, not maybe at 8 though, or maybe, I know very little to nothing about basketball
Its cool deej  
idiotsavant : 5/18/2017 1:09 pm : link
I wondered after that game if its a league trend or just the Knicks. I don't know crap about basketball.

Or maybe it was just that one game.

But it seems like (as opposed to 1980s ball) everyone is in such a damn rush to run back on D that (for that one game) they could not be bothered to rebound on O in particular.

It would seem that gaining a rebound on O in particular would be of great importance, in the triangle.

Thinking of dennis rodman.
Here, I found a piece with Zach Lowe  
idiotsavant : 5/18/2017 1:16 pm : link
talking about the trend to devalue offensive rebounds in an effort to stop fast breaks instead, and offering that it might be time to reverse the trend:

https://gravityandlevity.wordpress.com/2016/01/05/the-value-of-improved-offensive-rebounding/
Rebounding has gotten a lot harder  
Deej : 5/18/2017 1:16 pm : link
the further out you shoot from, the more random the rebound location will be. And the further from the basket the rebound will go. See linked article.

People ignore this when they bemoan the lack of boxing out. There are tradeoffs to boxing out. Boxing out made more sense when the whole league was trying to take shots from close in -- because rebounds were predictable and likely to land in just a few spots. Now that they scatter because of all the long range shooting, it's less valuable to box out (and guys also arent physically built to do that inside work much anymore, as they condition themselves to be lean for shooting and perimeter defending).
Link - ( New Window )
Knicks  
DanMetroMan : 5/18/2017 1:17 pm : link
will not participate in LV. Berman claims Phil hates it there.
RE: Its cool deej  
TyreeHelmet : 5/18/2017 1:17 pm : link
In comment 13475368 idiotsavant said:
Quote:
I wondered after that game if its a league trend or just the Knicks. I don't know crap about basketball.

Or maybe it was just that one game.

But it seems like (as opposed to 1980s ball) everyone is in such a damn rush to run back on D that (for that one game) they could not be bothered to rebound on O in particular.

It would seem that gaining a rebound on O in particular would be of great importance, in the triangle.

Thinking of dennis rodman.


Honestly I'm not following what your suggesting but many NBA teams have only 1 guy crash the boards and have everyone else get back to prevent fast breaks.

With that said- watch the Cavs play. Thompson kills the offensive glass and providing extra possessions to a team- especially Lebron who seemingly creates a good shot every possession, is very valuable.
or, more accrurately, two writers  
idiotsavant : 5/18/2017 1:19 pm : link
have in depth discourse about the trend and should it be reversed or not
not suggesting with finality, just to open the subject  
idiotsavant : 5/18/2017 1:24 pm : link
from the same link (gravity at wordspress)

''

Looking at the league-average level, the takeaway is this: an NBA team generally improves on offense by about 0.62 points per 100 possessions for each percentage point increase in its offensive rebound rate. This means that if NBA teams were to improve their offensive rebounding from 23% (where it is now) to 30% (where it was a few years ago), they would generally score about 4.3 points more per 100 possessions.

So now the remaining question is this: are teams saving more than 4.3 points per 100 possessions by virtue of their improved transition defense?
''
if Porz is a deadly 3 pt shooter  
idiotsavant : 5/18/2017 1:27 pm : link
than the advantage of having a great offensive rebounder is multiplied twice:

first referencing the linked article, 3 pt shooting teams benefit more from O rebounds for obvious reasons

second, Porz would be relieved of any and all need to be under the basket on O, improving his # of attempts at 3.
But as Deej mentioned  
giantsfan44ab : 5/18/2017 1:32 pm : link
The Knicks are already one of the top offensive rebounding teams with noah, Willy and O'Quinn so how much further can they really get? It's diminishing returns at that point. You'd really need topflight rebounding guards (Westbrook, Bradley, harden, etc.) to get any better in that regard.
I have no idea clearly  
idiotsavant : 5/18/2017 1:44 pm : link
however, the article is a good one, loaded with stats and math, and also says that

'good rebounding benefit more from the increase'.

maybe back up to 30% 'as a few years ago' or higher (the 1980s?)

it might enable the knicks to use some of its existing pieces more effectively.

keep in mind, in the heyday of the triangle, rebounding was apparently much higher than it is now in the league.

as someone mentioned, stretching out some of the players post shot gives at least some of them a chance to get back quickly.

I think the idea is to combine the new emphasis on 3 pt shooting with the additional chances by having a great dedicated specialist O rebounder that kicks it back out as opposed to put back.
typo  
idiotsavant : 5/18/2017 1:45 pm : link
'good rebounding -teams- benefit from increase in rebounding more than poor ones do'
RE: Knicks  
Anakim : 5/18/2017 1:47 pm : link
In comment 13475378 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
will not participate in LV. Berman claims Phil hates it there.


Off to Orlando!
RE: Knicks  
Deej : 5/18/2017 1:48 pm : link
In comment 13475378 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
will not participate in LV. Berman claims Phil hates it there.


He should retire. We're not going to LV because he cant travel.
We were in Orlando last year, too.  
bceagle05 : 5/18/2017 1:52 pm : link
I remember watching those games on MSG - it was like a middle school gymnasium. Crispino and Clyde were calling the game from the MSG studio. The team sucked too - Ronnie Baker was the big name. This year's should be more compelling.
RE: Knicks  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 5/18/2017 1:53 pm : link
In comment 13475378 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
will not participate in LV. Berman claims Phil hates it there.


I think I hate this more than the Noah signing.
RE: We were in Orlando last year, too.  
Anakim : 5/18/2017 1:54 pm : link
In comment 13475429 bceagle05 said:
Quote:
I remember watching those games on MSG - it was like a middle school gymnasium. Crispino and Clyde were calling the game from the MSG studio. The team sucked too - Ronnie Baker was the big name. This year's should be more compelling.


Chasson Randle too. Last year's team was awful. Hopefully it'll be more fun to watch this year given that we have three draft picks.
RE: I'd be pretty  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 5/18/2017 1:55 pm : link
In comment 13475201 Jon in NYC said:
Quote:
stunned if Willy is moved. He is a building block with pretty unreal per/48 numbers.


Based on Phil's comments after the lottery, he sees Willy as a building block and isn't really considering a 4 or 5 in the draft.
RE: RE: Knicks  
Enzo : 5/18/2017 1:56 pm : link
In comment 13475421 Deej said:
Quote:
In comment 13475378 DanMetroMan said:


Quote:


will not participate in LV. Berman claims Phil hates it there.



He should retire. We're not going to LV because he cant travel.

$12 million a year for this. For that money, you could have your pick of nearly any front office guy in the league...I don't care how bad the owner is.
so, guessing, in the 1980s it was about 33% league wide  
idiotsavant : 5/18/2017 2:00 pm : link
and now about %25 or %26.

which may be why the triangle doesn't work now. So, we may be higher than the league, but that's probably because Phil wants to go even higher.

but it can cycle back just like running in football, especially as you don't want to waste a porzingas by asking him to live and die by his own rebounds, near the basket, when that's not his thing and he has other stregths
I  
DanMetroMan : 5/18/2017 2:00 pm : link
wonder if they bother with Labeyrie again?
RE: I  
Anakim : 5/18/2017 2:02 pm : link
In comment 13475445 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
wonder if they bother with Labeyrie again?


Loose labia? Why the fuck not? Let him play in Orlando. Couldn't hurt.



And geez, Early, Thanasis and Labeyrie. Yikes. Could've had Jokic or Clarkson over Early.
RE: RE: Knicks  
TyreeHelmet : 5/18/2017 2:04 pm : link
In comment 13475431 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
Quote:
In comment 13475378 DanMetroMan said:


Quote:


will not participate in LV. Berman claims Phil hates it there.



I think I hate this more than the Noah signing.


I don't think this is a big deal in the scheme of things, but all this stuff adds up. Woj and others always talk about how a part of being a successful GM is building relationships. Summer league in Vegas is an opportunity for that and Phil clearly has no interest in it.
It's  
DanMetroMan : 5/18/2017 2:04 pm : link
unbelievable the return rate on the 30-40 range of the draft vs. the 45-60 range. You would think it's closer than it is.
RE: RE: RE: Knicks  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 5/18/2017 2:15 pm : link
In comment 13475453 TyreeHelmet said:
Quote:


I don't think this is a big deal in the scheme of things, but all this stuff adds up. Woj and others always talk about how a part of being a successful GM is building relationships. Summer league in Vegas is an opportunity for that and Phil clearly has no interest in it.


It literally does not mean anything at all, but it's something fans (myself included) really look forward to. I'm not sure how participating in it is a negative.
Paul  
DanMetroMan : 5/18/2017 2:18 pm : link
George is now a lock to LAL. Do they wait or make a deal for him?
RE: Paul  
giantsfan44ab : 5/18/2017 2:22 pm : link
In comment 13475471 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
George is now a lock to LAL. Do they wait or make a deal for him?


I wait if I'm the Lakers. I'd only consider a deal that takes off salary from the books. Maybe Clarkson and a late 1st for PG? Pacers don't really have leverage. PG will cost less than Cousins did I'd imagine.
RE: Paul  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 5/18/2017 2:22 pm : link
In comment 13475471 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
George is now a lock to LAL. Do they wait or make a deal for him?


Will the Pacers accept Russell and a pick for him?
i wait..  
nygiants16 : 5/18/2017 2:23 pm : link
i bet they dangle russell though to try and add another superstar and unload deng or mozgov...

it cant just be george, they need to add 1 more maybe 2
RE: RE: Paul  
giantsfan44ab : 5/18/2017 2:24 pm : link
In comment 13475477 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
Quote:
In comment 13475471 DanMetroMan said:


Quote:


George is now a lock to LAL. Do they wait or make a deal for him?



Will the Pacers accept Russell and a pick for him?


In a heartbeat I would think. Not a high pick though, would have to be heavily protected. Indiana holds no cards here.
.  
DanMetroMan : 5/18/2017 2:36 pm : link
Unbelievable how poor the Clippers tradable assets are. Only gave up 1 first in the now ancient Chris Paul deal #Knicks
Why is he a lock to LA  
Deej : 5/18/2017 3:22 pm : link
because he missed the all NBA team and cant be super maxed?

Isnt it likely that if LA doesnt get him now that IND trades him as a rental to a contender? Isnt there a good chance he ends up happy on that contender and resigns? What if he gets traded to LAC in a 3 way where Blake or Deandre get assets to IND somehow? Or Boston with it's amazing depth?

I dont know about lock. I think LA should put an offer out for him now if they badly want him.
RE: .  
Deej : 5/18/2017 3:23 pm : link
In comment 13475488 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
Unbelievable how poor the Clippers tradable assets are. Only gave up 1 first in the now ancient Chris Paul deal #Knicks


And Cavs. That's the lost part of the "Melo has no value" brigade's argument. The real issue is that the teams he wants to go to have no assets to trade. If LA had a #10 pick and an expiring to match Melo, they'd trade for him in a heartbeat.
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