I saw this article in Bigblueview.
The Giants (IMHO) need to keep both a blocking TE and a Fullback in the 53 man roster. The Giants had Pascoe, Hedgecock or Hynoski when we were winning championships. Ellison without a Fullback is not enough. They need to re-introduce the "hammer" into the Giants offense.
Power football and the West Coast Offense are not mutually exclusive.
Your thoughts.
Giants Off-season - (
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1. OJB has inflated Eli's numbers for 3 years now. Makes his stats look like like he's playing better than he is. In reality Eli has been very mediocre for large stretches of his career.
2. He's 36 the odds are he will get worse not better AND become more injury prone because of age.
3. The WCO is designed to minimize the OL so blaming them totally for the offensive ineptitude is off base. I will buy the argument about Cruz, the TEs and Vereen's absence.
It's all about the QB and whether Eli can still play top level football is a VERY good question (which explains why they drafted a QB this year and didn't wait until next year)
and combined with Irving and some of last years picks,that Dallas d-line isn't looking half bad.They can probably ship Randy Gregory to Amsterdam if they want
Only the Eagles DL worries me.
Redskins also Chris Baker. Their DB's are also not good.
Dallas got Taco but he's not a threat so much rushing the passer. Lawrence is a good DE but he's just one. They lost McClain at DT. They also lost many DB's from last year and are thin at those spots.
Currently, their starters and depth is
CB 1 Anthony Brown (rookies and Leon McFadden as depth
CB 2 Nolan Carroll (Orlando Scandrick is nickel)
FS Byron Jones (5th round rookie behind him)
SS battle between Jeff Heath and Robert Blanton (exicte)
Man, just stop. Jake Ballard averaged 15.9 ypc in 2011. He was light-years better than Tye or Donnell (or even both put together). 38 catches for 604 yards and 4 TDs when he was, at best, the 4th option. And he may not have been Howard Cross 2.0, but he was a good blocker, which is something that neither Tye or Donnell are.
You don't look at the WRs as individuals. You look at them as a unit, and Nicks, Cruz (the 2011 version), and Manningham were much better than OBJ, Cruz (the 2016 version), and Shepard. They complemented each other very well and came up big when the money was on the line.
1. OJB has inflated Eli's numbers for 3 years now. Makes his stats look like like he's playing better than he is. In reality Eli has been very mediocre for large stretches of his career.
I'll bite. I'll throw out Rodgers and Brady, because with Peyton, they're greater than the rest.
Name other upper echelon QB's and tell me how they DON'T receive help. At least in one spot. The Falcons last year? Yeah Julio gets hobbled, but he has the best one two punch at RB, he has Sanu and Gabriel spreading out the defenses.
He had a fantastic OL. Now you're turn. (please tell me how great the Steelers offense is because Ben's so tough)
I think the biggest issues last year:
1. Lack of a receiving TE, seam-splitter, checkdown whatever you want to call it.
2. Lack of running game mainly because there was no affect on any play action plays.
Worst talent in NFL.....and OL forced quick decisions.....Eli took a step back due to one reliable option.
Shepard in 2nd year is now 4th best option vs 2nd......Big big difference
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and people need to get there head out of their asses and see clearly
1. OJB has inflated Eli's numbers for 3 years now. Makes his stats look like like he's playing better than he is. In reality Eli has been very mediocre for large stretches of his career.
I'll bite. I'll throw out Rodgers and Brady, because with Peyton, they're greater than the rest.
Name other upper echelon QB's and tell me how they DON'T receive help. At least in one spot. The Falcons last year? Yeah Julio gets hobbled, but he has the best one two punch at RB, he has Sanu and Gabriel spreading out the defenses.
He had a fantastic OL. Now you're turn. (please tell me how great the Steelers offense is because Ben's so tough)
How about what Eli has done for OBJ? Do you think he'd be happier catching passes from some lesser QB?
Adding Marshall to replace Cruz has to be another big upgrade at WR
Rb should be improved just by giving Perkins more snaps. A healthy Vereen has to help
Ol is a work in progress but weapons have been added.
Secondary depth is my biggest concern given the mismatches we had with Green Bay's wr's last year when DRC went down and our other corners were dinged. Adams play tailed off as the season went on
I disagree with JR's draft approach where he spent a second on a DT that will likely leave for more money when his contract is up as previous DTs have done. We could have drafted another fat guy to play a few plays against the run in a later round or just plugged in a UDFA DT and used a valuable second round choice on a quality OL, CB or S.
Also disagree with using a valuable third rounder on a gamble of a qb who won't see the field for years when multiple corners and safeties were available who could contribute this year.
This is a passing league now and the draft emphasis has to be improving our passing game offensively and defensively.
We addressed part of the above
On offense, it's not the line. It's Manning. If he rebounds, we're good.
I think Hankins can be replaced, but I am surprised to hear you say it's not the line, this was one of the worst lines in football last year. Eli will perform well if he has a running game and some time to throw.
And Eli moved around in the pocket better then, and now he has less interest in doing so.
And without question:
Nicks/Cruz/Mann/Ballard > OBJ/Cruz/Shepard/Tye
His specific issues with the offseason were
1- No OL upgrades
2- Signing JPP
3- Not signing Hankins
I think re: 1, it sucks that there were no big improvements for the OL, and it figures to be a weakness for the Giants again; but you also have to consider the options that were out there. Every, even somewhat notable OL, got a MASSIVE contract. Many of these deals were simply not good value but because of the OL issues around the league, people overpaid. The Giants were already pressed for space + need to resign Pugh and Richburg next year.
We've talked about this many times, but the OL prospects in the draft weren't great either and at 23, what options did the Giants really have? Plus, if you were to draft an OL early, TE would be an issue.
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RE: 2 I agree that JPP, given his health issues, is a risky guy to pay a top dollar deal. But, end of the day, he didn't get a top deal. Guys like Vernon, Wilkerson, Jones, JJ Watt, all got more money than JPP. So JPP has his issues, but he was priced accordingly.
Re: 3 It sucks that Hankins left, but devoting so many resources to the DL would be a mistake. Plus (Barnwell cited how Tomlinson isn't a pass rushing DT), you can always just substitute Tomlinson with Bromley or Thomas on passing downs if needed. If Harrison goes down, the Giants don't have a run stuffer on the roster.
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Dallas literally lost a third of their starters. Not sure how they don't have the lowest grade.
Then again, I stopped paying attention to Barnwell when he asserted that now ex-Bears GM Phil Emery was going to succeed because he actually took the time to tell folks in press conferences what his strategy was.
As for what ails the Giants' offense, why can't it be a little bit of everything? They were definitely short on quality personnel last year, there were times in which Eli was skittish, and even though McAdoo managed the games well, it's like he gave up trying to improve the offense as the season progressed.
eli had some struggles and threw some bad passes but during the playoff game manning looked really sharp,the OL however didnt open up holes to get any meaningful running game going and allowed far too much pressure on eli. worse when he did get the ball where it needed to be even beckham had bad drops
vereen was an important safety valve for eli and at the time probably the only one they could use to defeat the coverage the WR were getting,they had no deep threat WR, look to past years manningham,barden,dixon all had either size or speed defences HAD to account for that all sub 6 foot group lacked the size and speed to do that (except beckham obviously) none of that group i mentioned are superstars by any stretch but the kept the defence off balance in ways last years group couldnt
they added the fastest TE in the draft,most nfl ready by all accounts too,he isnt a true inline TE but the giants already believe they have that with adams and supplemented that with the blocking TE ellison. i have been advocating the addition of a move type TE ever since shockey left and im glad they finally got that it will add a big dimension to a very flat and predictable offence they had last year inside the redzone they now have 2 targets that can out muscle and get open quickly that is a game changer for a team with a very good defence to lean on
the OL is weakness league wide as the crazy prices even so so OL players are getting in free agency,the giants want to keep beckham and overpaying for an OL would probably mean they lack the cap space to re-sign him shortly,even then i think it takes a restructure or paycut to manning to keep beckham in big blue
i believe part of why they drafted webb they needed some leverage to get eli to take less. if this team wins the the big one, eli may even wish to retire that 3rd trophy would cement his HOF credentials and be the way to go out as peyton did on a high not the way simms did being cut bouncing around a few teams before realising he was past it and being forced into retirement that way
Competition on the Oline will be better with Fluker. Adding Bisnowaty in the draft and UDFAs in Wheeler and Dunker was also big IMO. They may not be capable of contributing a whole lot this year, but if they develop, they will make this Oline much, much better; and by the way, Wheeler and Dunker were both rated top 10 in the respective positions.
Marshall is a much better target, right now, then VC. Not only is he much bigger, blocks better, but he's an outside receiver. He'll contribute greatly as a large target for Eli.
Ellison was a great pick up as a blocking TE and should, not only help the Oline out, but the running game.
Engram adds a dimension at TE that will make the defense nervous.
Tomlinson is just as capable as Hankins and in fact might prove to be more valuable, but he is a rookie. I'm sure they'll rotate Bromley and Thomas into the lineup more this year, until DT shows he can handle it all.
Skipping Webb
Gallman played in the SEC and was very successful for a National Champion. Good player who should contribute from the get go.
Moss is raw and played in a lower level of competition, but has the athleticism for the position. This is the guy that I'm hoping Reese hit gold with. We desperately need that 3rd pass rusher.
Bisnowaty already addressed
Forgot to add the other UDFAs picked up, like Jadar Johnson, who also played in the SEC and should provide nice competition for the secondary.
And so I'm not sure how this team gets a C- for that off-season? Oline is the only position not fully addressed, but you can say money and quality just wasn't there to address it this off-season. This is the one position where we have to HOPE all goes better this year.
Eli does have to play better and he knows it too. I think with the addition of the players this off-season that his play will improve and the offense as a whole with him. More points should be scored per game and we'll need it more-so this year against some pretty stiff competition.
And now lastly, I was listening to WYSP (Philly Radio) on my way to work today only to hear delusional Philly fans think that the Blount signing will make them playoff contenders, Division Champs and end up with a record of 11-5 or 12-4. This time of year every team is considered contenders by their respective fan base and should. This is the time for dreaming. These grades IMO are worthless and only give the media something else to write about when there is nothing. Let's see how all these off-season additions play next year before making grades on who had the better off-season. There's so many variables (chemistry, scheme, injuries, etc) that can change that.
So, the Giants didn't lose any significant players other than Hankins (who I expect to be very capably replaced by Dalvin Tomlinson) and added some crucial talent on the offense.
Meanwhile, Dallas lost an absolute shitload of talent, particularly on their D -- including most of their starting defensive line and backfield. They also lost Leary at OG, who was a huge part of their O-line dominance.
Hard to imagine how anyone could say that Dallas didn't have the worst offseason in the division.
Competition on the Oline will be better with Fluker. Adding Bisnowaty in the draft and UDFAs in Wheeler and Dunker was also big IMO. They may not be capable of contributing a whole lot this year, but if they develop, they will make this Oline much, much better; and by the way, Wheeler and Dunker were both rated top 10 in the respective positions.
Marshall is a much better target, right now, then VC. Not only is he much bigger, blocks better, but he's an outside receiver. He'll contribute greatly as a large target for Eli.
Ellison was a great pick up as a blocking TE and should, not only help the Oline out, but the running game.
Engram adds a dimension at TE that will make the defense nervous.
Tomlinson is just as capable as Hankins and in fact might prove to be more valuable, but he is a rookie. I'm sure they'll rotate Bromley and Thomas into the lineup more this year, until DT shows he can handle it all.
Skipping Webb
Gallman played in the SEC and was very successful for a National Champion. Good player who should contribute from the get go.
Moss is raw and played in a lower level of competition, but has the athleticism for the position. This is the guy that I'm hoping Reese hit gold with. We desperately need that 3rd pass rusher.
Bisnowaty already addressed
Forgot to add the other UDFAs picked up, like Jadar Johnson, who also played in the SEC and should provide nice competition for the secondary.
And so I'm not sure how this team gets a C- for that off-season? Oline is the only position not fully addressed, but you can say money and quality just wasn't there to address it this off-season. This is the one position where we have to HOPE all goes better this year.
Eli does have to play better and he knows it too. I think with the addition of the players this off-season that his play will improve and the offense as a whole with him. More points should be scored per game and we'll need it more-so this year against some pretty stiff competition.
And now lastly, I was listening to WYSP (Philly Radio) on my way to work today only to hear delusional Philly fans think that the Blount signing will make them playoff contenders, Division Champs and end up with a record of 11-5 or 12-4. This time of year every team is considered contenders by their respective fan base and should. This is the time for dreaming. These grades IMO are worthless and only give the media something else to write about when there is nothing. Let's see how all these off-season additions play next year before making grades on who had the better off-season. There's so many variables (chemistry, scheme, injuries, etc) that can change that.
Or I could just have said "This."
Just goes to show how much needs to be done across the board on offense. We had Eli in good form vs a MASH-unit Packer D that surrendered 75 points in its other two playoff games, and we put up a whopping 13 against them.
This on the heels of another Randy Gregory suspension, Jaylon Smith still up in the air and the very real possibility Dak takes a step back with defensive coordinators having a dossier on him. They can start by studying what the Giants did.
Nearly the Cowboys' entire secondary left in free agency and have been replaced by rookies. How the Giants could've had a worse offseason than that, IDK.
That could be because the salary cap effectively limits compensation for linemen; it could be due to limited practice time and very limited full-contact practices; or it could be that defenders and defenses have improved and offenses haven't caught up.
Whatever it is, the assumption seems to be that the Giants are simply failing to solve their line problems. I've been pretty harsh about their front office, noting that they've tried and failed, which is worse than not trying. But maybe the problem is bigger -- maybe the Giants' line problems are simply reflecting a larger decline in O-line play. Maybe the solution the pundits are demanding doesn't exist anymore.
The game evolves. Maybe it's going to take a radical change in offensive schemes and line techniques to adjust to this evolution. I have no idea what that would be.
That could be because the salary cap effectively limits compensation for linemen; it could be due to limited practice time and very limited full-contact practices; or it could be that defenders and defenses have improved and offenses haven't caught up.
Whatever it is, the assumption seems to be that the Giants are simply failing to solve their line problems. I've been pretty harsh about their front office, noting that they've tried and failed, which is worse than not trying. But maybe the problem is bigger -- maybe the Giants' line problems are simply reflecting a larger decline in O-line play. Maybe the solution the pundits are demanding doesn't exist anymore.
The game evolves. Maybe it's going to take a radical change in offensive schemes and line techniques to adjust to this evolution. I have no idea what that would be.
Great post. Like most things its a combination of multiple reasons which is why I never understood that posts lambasting 1 particular entity (Reese, Solari, McAdoo, etc). They all need to dig a bit deeper for a solution, one that simply isn't obvious or easy to do.
But this past draft tells me the Giants are thinking the league is changing a bit. Their OL pieces probably aren't that far behind that of a top 15 unit and they aren't going to blow major assets if the talent gap is minimal. I also think with Marshall/Engram we are going to see a completely different offense than we saw in 2016.
Its fun to be a Giants fan right now, so much can happen in 2017 and its easily the most pumped i've been for football to start in years.
As if, the Giants and Cowboys could both go into a draft and a UFA class which everyone said was very poor in OL quality and yet somehow snatch an All Pro can't miss LT and G. It's kind of unfair to say JR should have addressed OL without saying exactly how that was going to happen.
Thought his take on the defense was interesting. Disagree about JPP being overpaid, think he's a big part of our defense and do not think this was the time to let him walk. JPP gets just as much anywhere else, maybe more, so it's a market thing and you can't blame JR for that. He sort pooh-poos Snacks and DT as "just" two down players with similar skills. Sign me up for Davlin Thomlinson turning out to be another Snacks type player.
Good read, thanks to OP for posting. As always, in Reese we trust...
On offense, it's not the line. It's Manning. If he rebounds, we're good.
I mentioned this last season but it did not get much attention. To me, this is not about Eli regressing or anything like that. I think defenses have figured out that they can force Eli to check out of his original play easily by showing him a defense pre-snap that he is not comfortable with. Yes, the O-line bears part of that responsibility because he is checking out of the play because it looks like a jailbreak is coming and he needs to protect himself.
Regardless, to me it looked like too often he was changing the play at the line. Way too often and it is as if we were not running the play that we wanted to for the most part.
In summary, the defenses were forcing Eli to check to plays they would rather we run.
His loss isn't going to be one I think will make a huge difference. As long as Snacks is there they will be fine. I was impressed with how well Robert Thomas looked in brief time. Bromley needs a good pre-season and camp. Tomlinson -- all he needs is to come in and plug the run. That's not a lot to ask and I think he can handle it.
Maybe Kuhn skating with one blocker on each arm helped him out?
But in 2011, our defense was atrocious until the playoff run. Eli kept us alive until then with 7 or 8 4th quarter comebacks. I think our defense was ranked 30th or 31st that season.
He was arguably the league MVP that year.
As Klaatu says above, we had lots of issues on offense (no TE or RB was huge too). Cruz was toast as he points out.
But this was the third year in the WCO system for Manning and I expected better. There were times he just played scared. Now many will say that is because he didn't trust the OL (and he probably didn't). But he's got to rise above that.
Agreed about him playing scared. In fact the game he played against the Vikings was the worst case of nerves that I've ever seen from a Giant QB & I have memories of the Bears beating the shit out of YA in '63.
As for his need for a solid running game, that was accurate when he was in the vertical. He threw a beautiful deep post off a play fake. In this finesse offense, the dink pass takes the place of the running game. Play fakes mean shit in the Gun. He can't do the 2-man read .
You do realize the same guys built two championship teams, right? Very strange the lengths you go to credit everyone else but Reese for the success. Your insinuation that he was a Rooney Rule hire is more than telling.
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of the biggest myths put out by pundits is that Manning needs a good running game to succeed.
Sort of. What isn't a myth is that Eli needs a good D to succeed. Give Eli a decent to good D and the Giants are competitive or better every single season.
A running game doesn't hurt. From 05-2010 the Giants had a good to great running game. How many of those teams won less than eight games? None. How many won more than eight? Four.
Eli does not need a good D to be successfull just look at 2011. Eli needs time to throw the ball and let routes develop. the offense needs to include more deep shots the play calling was riddling with short yardage passing plays
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In comment 13475130 Eric from BBI said:
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of the biggest myths put out by pundits is that Manning needs a good running game to succeed.
Sort of. What isn't a myth is that Eli needs a good D to succeed. Give Eli a decent to good D and the Giants are competitive or better every single season.
A running game doesn't hurt. From 05-2010 the Giants had a good to great running game. How many of those teams won less than eight games? None. How many won more than eight? Four.
Eli does not need a good D to be successfull just look at 2011. Eli needs time to throw the ball and let routes develop. the offense needs to include more deep shots the play calling was riddling with short yardage passing plays
If I'm the Giants, I do much like New England: hit the open, easy throw. Someone is open every play and it seems like Brady has radar for that guy and goes there 95% of the time. Eli can be pretty good in that regard too with his 2.5 second release style.
I also think we'll be going deep at times during games, when coverages call for it AND when teams pinch up to stop the run or short pass game. I still love Brandon Marshall against #2 corners - 1 on 1. I also think Engram will be running some routes that maximize his skill set down the middle and he'll feast with OBJ taking coverages.
We had a great off-season IF the following happens:
1. Brandon Marshall has that one very good season left in him, that 80-1050-8 TD type season where he simply beats his #2 cover corner man consistently giving Eli a reliable, viable target.
2. TE Ellison - if he can open up our run game and help our OT's pass protect, he was well worth the money we paid him.
3. TE Engram, DT Tomlinson, RB Gellman, OL Bisnotaway - will the core of our draft class provide solid production in 2017, even if late? I've always believed that when a draft class begins paying dividends during a season, even if in the final 5 or so games, it changes the LOOK & FEEL of a team for the better.
4. K - have we improved with a strong leg? Hard to say?
5. UDFA's - how many stick cause they deserve to?
6. Health of FS D. Thompson & M. Thompson. We can use their talent and speed back there. Mykkele flashed but can he stay healthy? Same with Behre?
[quote] Defense still wins. So every quarterback looks "better" with a great defense. (Fans are more forgiving - a little - if they have a win on Sunday rather than a loss).
But in 2011, our defense was atrocious until the playoff run. Eli kept us alive until then with 7 or 8 4th quarter comebacks. I think our defense was ranked 30th or 31st that season. [/quote
Absolutely. Eli was brilliant in 2011. He had a great trio of WRs and functional if not good TEs. The D had a pass rush but didn't really click until December.
I just think some people are glossing over how short on talent last year's offense truly was. Eli and McAdoo looked fine in 2014 and 2015 which sort of fooled us all into thinking that offense was on the way up. Ot obviously wasn't and placing most of the blame on Eli and McAdoo to me just seems crazy. And many here are doing just that. More than likely the struggles were due to defenses figuring out Beckham and Eli a bit more, lack of offensive talent to compensate for that and I also feel that we played to the scoreboard more than in 2014-15. Granted that's a stretch but I have a hard time thinking the Giants offense doesn't get a little crazier in 2016 if the D is terrible.
It's a compliment to Eli. Not meant to be a shot.
Once the D kicked things into high gear in 2011 the Giants went from a one trick pony team to a champion. Eli saved that season early and late. The D took it to another level. Ask Dan Marino how his career would look if he had a decent D.
Ill keep saying it. Where are all the starting skill players from last year's offense save for Beckham? They are all out of football or about to be out of football or lucky to have a backup role somewhere. For all this talk of our terribly neglected OL, the worst NYG starter last year, NEwhouse, is starting for Oakland.
Give the guy a defense like last year and the Giants win 10 games in their sleep despite legions of fans saying Eli struggled. They still win 10.
I think Dallas losing Doug Free and Ron Leary is going to hurt. Their secondary is made over with Awuzie, Lewis, and Woods all coming via the draft. Awuzie looks like he may be a solid player but all the tape on lewis tells me he will be a bust. regarless a young secondary + some mediocre vets leaves them vulnerable. idk if we can say they really had a successfull offseason
The Redskins lost jackson and garcon. They added Pryor, but no one else, so they took a step back there in my eyes. They added Allen and Anderson to the D via the draft who should both make immediate impacts on their D. They lost their GM and still havent replaced him.
I think Dallas losing Doug Free and Ron Leary is going to hurt. Their secondary is made over with Awuzie, Lewis, and Woods all coming via the draft. Awuzie looks like he may be a solid player but all the tape on lewis tells me he will be a bust. regarless a young secondary + some mediocre vets leaves them vulnerable. idk if we can say they really had a successfull offseason
The Redskins lost jackson and garcon. They added Pryor, but no one else, so they took a step back there in my eyes. They added Allen and Anderson to the D via the draft who should both make immediate impacts on their D. They lost their GM and still havent replaced him.
The Redskins receiving corps took a hit. The Eagles should be better if Wentz improves by a wide margin and I think he will.
I'm hope we start 4-0 again the NFC, 2-0 in the NFC East, and establish ourselves since this team should be strong right out of the gates. We have a TOUGH schedule and we can't afford to have any early close losses.
We have question marks but not nearly as many as our division rivals. The Eagles scare me a bit cause they should be improved BUT I'm not sure by how much just yet.
dallas might have the biggest worry with their pass coverage losing almost all their secondary to free agency. also, their OL took two hits with only one ready replacement.