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Did Giants have worst offseason in NFC East?

dk in TX : 5/18/2017 10:07 am
I saw this article in Bigblueview.

The Giants (IMHO) need to keep both a blocking TE and a Fullback in the 53 man roster. The Giants had Pascoe, Hedgecock or Hynoski when we were winning championships. Ellison without a Fullback is not enough. They need to re-introduce the "hammer" into the Giants offense.
Power football and the West Coast Offense are not mutually exclusive.

Your thoughts.
Giants Off-season - ( New Window )
According to Barnwell on espn  
The_Boss : 5/18/2017 10:09 am : link
They did. Because they did nothing of "significance" on the OL, he gave us a c minus
No  
jerrydo : 5/18/2017 10:12 am : link
No
When camp opens,  
CT Charlie : 5/18/2017 10:13 am : link
I'd pay to see Barnwell line up opposite Fluker.

...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 5/18/2017 10:14 am : link
My biggest worry is the short-term impact of losing our veteran defensive tackle inside. If Tomlinson or Bromley or Thomas can handle the position, we'll be OK on defense.

On offense, it's not the line. It's Manning. If he rebounds, we're good.
I like the off-season so far.  
Beezer : 5/18/2017 10:14 am : link
I think it's too soon to grade off-seasons when it's still ... the off-season.

I get some people's concern about the O-line. But I see it being addressed. Maybe not with all-pros of proven guys. But there have been moves made. There are some solid pieces. There's potential. And I believe however it shakes out, the O-line will be improved from last year.

C-minus, whatever. Maybe that's right, maybe it's not.

But if we have an A receiving corps, if our QB is a B, if our RBs are a B, and our defense is still an A? We might be pretty damn good, even with a C-minus O-line.

I just don't think we're finished yet.

My thoughts are its 2017 and Ben Mac's team  
Young Elijah : 5/18/2017 10:14 am : link
Living in the past is not going to help your perspective on this team. IMO we had the best/most impactful offseason simply by adding Marshall, let alone solidifying the TE spot
RE: ...  
GuzzaBlue : 5/18/2017 10:18 am : link
In comment 13475009 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
My biggest worry is the short-term impact of losing our veteran defensive tackle inside. If Tomlinson or Bromley or Thomas can handle the position, we'll be OK on defense.

On offense, it's not the line. It's Manning. If he rebounds, we're good.


Eric, I have a great feeling about Tomlinson. He's so strong and athletic. I think he could be a force on the interior. Hopefully his knees hold up.
One time Barnwell  
ajr2456 : 5/18/2017 10:18 am : link
tried to prove Eli wasn't a good QB with a metric that had Dilfer and Green in the top 10.

He blocked me when I pointed out those two were in the top 10 all time.
Um,  
robbieballs2003 : 5/18/2017 10:19 am : link
Did anybody see what happened to Dallas?
GuzzaBlue  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 5/18/2017 10:22 am : link
Me too... but he's still a rookie. It's hard for a rookie DT to make an immediate impact. It happens, but they usually take a year or two.
I'd say that Philly and Washington had very good offseasons.  
Klaatu : 5/18/2017 10:24 am : link
But then, they had a lot more room for improvement.

I still maintain that the Giants' offensive woes in 2016 were more a product of the ineptitude of their skill players and less a product of an inept offensive line or a declining Eli. In that regard, the Giants did an excellent job addressing that.
C- is such a low ball  
GuzzaBlue : 5/18/2017 10:24 am : link
grade. One of our biggest issues last year was taking coverage away from Beckham. They added Marshall and a receiving TE. They added depth and competition to the Oline. One of the best blocking TE's to help the Oline. Yes they lost out on Hankins (10M per year), but replaced him with a more cost controlled/cheaper player who IMO has more upside. Also, throw in Eli's possible successor. Considering how much they spent last year, I feel they did very well. Hopefully the Oline improves and Eli can get back on his game.

We might have  
crackerjack465 : 5/18/2017 10:25 am : link
but we didn't have a lot of cap and we were an already pretty well-rounded team. I think we basically kept the same defense, which was already young and had room to grow from within.

Offense we needed help at WR, TE, RB and OL. We signed the best WR we could afford, got the best blocking TE on the market and drafted an uber athlete that can play in line/in the slot.

RB we addressed in the draft and we believe that we will grow from within (Perkins). Blount would've been nice.

OL we didn't do much. But we couldn't. There wasn't much out there. Weak FA class and the weakest draft class in 10+ years. We have to hope that Flowers/Pugh/Richburg become dominant OL and Fluker/Jerry/Hart fill in on the right side.

I don't think there was much more we could've done. I thought we overall improved and we already had a lot of room to grow from within.
one thing about Tomlinson  
gidiefor : Mod : 5/18/2017 10:27 am : link
he's a lot brighter than the average bear -- he may have the ability to absorb a lot more about the scheme than the average defensive rookie because of it -- and there have been DTs that start in their rookie years and are successful -- imo he has the tools
Eric  
GuzzaBlue : 5/18/2017 10:28 am : link
Very true. It took Hankins a year or so.

He's in a great situation with all the talent around him on the line, he doesn't really have to shine right away. And he gets to learn from one of the best.
RE: ...  
Beer Man : 5/18/2017 10:28 am : link
In comment 13475009 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
My biggest worry is the short-term impact of losing our veteran defensive tackle inside. If Tomlinson or Bromley or Thomas can handle the position, we'll be OK on defense.

On offense, it's not the line. It's Manning. If he rebounds, we're good.
I disagree. Yes Eli has to do better. But the OL was the biggest weakness on this team last year, and because they couldn't obtain the piece they needed to make it better they are rolling the dice along the OL.
1. Will Flowers finally get it?
2. Can Fluker finally reach his potential, or is he a dud?
3. Will Weston rebound? Was he really hurt or did his performance drop off?
4. Will any of the late round or UDFAs pickups surprise us?
5. Can Pugh play 16 games?
6. Can Hart be a reliable starter or is he destine to be a career backup?
7. Will the team be stuck once again playing Mr. Milk Toast (John Jerry) at LG?

If Eli is to rebound he has to stay on his feet, and there are still a lot of questions regarding this OL
Beer Man  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 5/18/2017 10:33 am : link
OL play around the NFL is not good.

With each passing year, the play of the QB decides things more and more on offense.

I expected a huge year from Eli in 2016. He regressed a bit.

It's been his trademark... up one year, down the next. It sucks, but it is what it is.
RE: ...  
Klaatu : 5/18/2017 10:35 am : link
In comment 13475009 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
My biggest worry is the short-term impact of losing our veteran defensive tackle inside. If Tomlinson or Bromley or Thomas can handle the position, we'll be OK on defense.


Oh, puh-leeze. Hankins was a good player, but he was hardly a difference-maker, and he certainly wasn't irreplaceable.
RE: Beer Man  
Klaatu : 5/18/2017 10:39 am : link
In comment 13475071 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
OL play around the NFL is not good.

With each passing year, the play of the QB decides things more and more on offense.

I expected a huge year from Eli in 2016. He regressed a bit.

It's been his trademark... up one year, down the next. It sucks, but it is what it is.


The O-Line stunk, the running game was virtually non-existent, Cruz was cooked, the TEs blew, Shepard was underwhelming, and OBJ came up small when it was imperative that he come up big, but, yeah...it's all about Eli's regression.
No way  
mavric : 5/18/2017 10:40 am : link
If all the Giants did was sign Marshall it would be a "B" as it increased a huge new offensive weapon to compliment OBJ and free him up to do what he does best.

But they also added Ellison, one of (if not thee) top blocking TE's in the NFL, and Fluker (former first round and top 10 pick), etc., the offense has been improved.

Add in a solid draft with yet another offensive weapon in a freak speed receiving TE and the off season was a solid "A"
RE: Beer Man  
Beer Man : 5/18/2017 10:47 am : link
In comment 13475071 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
OL play around the NFL is not good.

With each passing year, the play of the QB decides things more and more on offense.

I expected a huge year from Eli in 2016. He regressed a bit.

It's been his trademark... up one year, down the next. It sucks, but it is what it is.
True, the mobile and athletic QBs can make their OL look better; and I believe that's why Mac was pushing to draft Mahones (spelling?). At the same time a good OL can make a QB. Do you think Zak Prescott would have done so well behind last year's Giants OL? In the Giants situation, Eli is not a mobile QB and is not going to extend plays or beat teams with his legs. So the OL has to be good enough to form/hold a pocket, and to open holes for a running game.
RE: ...  
Rover : 5/18/2017 10:48 am : link
In comment 13475009 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
My biggest worry is the short-term impact of losing our veteran defensive tackle inside. If Tomlinson or Bromley or Thomas can handle the position, we'll be OK on defense.

On offense, it's not the line. It's Manning. If he rebounds, we're good.

Eric, you really see the issue as Manning, not the line?

My take has been the line sucks, limiting the Giants playbook to 3 step drops, & thus making it very hard for any QB to succeed or fairly evaluate.
You  
Toth029 : 5/18/2017 10:53 am : link
Know, I expected BIG things from Hankins in 2016. We can talk about Eli should've played better or Flowers, whoever. What pains me is seeing a very talented guy like John Hankins paired up with, in my view anyways, the best interior DL right next to him and on the other end is JPP. Yet he could hardly muster any pass rush. They took him out eventually on 3rd downs because of it. I don't understand why he all of a sudden couldn't get anything going rushing the QB. Was he not playing the same position when he had 7 sacks? He did good in 2015 despite the numbers. And there he had freakin' Kuhn beside him.

His loss isn't going to be one I think will make a huge difference. As long as Snacks is there they will be fine. I was impressed with how well Robert Thomas looked in brief time. Bromley needs a good pre-season and camp. Tomlinson -- all he needs is to come in and plug the run. That's not a lot to ask and I think he can handle it.
all I know is  
djm : 5/18/2017 10:54 am : link
heading into the 2016 season we all agreed the Giants got better from the year before. And heading into 2017 we can all agree the Giants have once again gotten better from the year before. In the NFL, that's king. We have a window of opportunity. It's very difficult to build a team that improves from one year to the next to the next. On paper we most definitely have and that's not even factoring in how young this team is. Outside of Eli and DRC the team is in its prime or very young.

How exactly have the Skins gotten better? Or Dallas for that matter? I am not saying those teams won't be problems for us but they aren't better on paper. Not by a long shot.
Shane  
Mr. Nickels : 5/18/2017 10:54 am : link
Smith for Fullback
And yes  
Mr. Nickels : 5/18/2017 10:54 am : link
Giants had a pretty bad offseason..
Just getting Marshall should give them a B  
BillT : 5/18/2017 10:54 am : link
Along with Ellison. They resigned JPP also. That's an A in my book. The draft was at least a B as well.

How is that worse that the Cowboys who lost 6 starters and signed Nolan Carroll and Terrance Williams.
Rover  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 5/18/2017 10:55 am : link
I've seen Manning play with a shitty OL (2011)...dead last running the ball....both our tackles sucking in pass protection.

He was arguably the league MVP that year.

As Klaatu says above, we had lots of issues on offense (no TE or RB was huge too). Cruz was toast as he points out.

But this was the third year in the WCO system for Manning and I expected better. There were times he just played scared. Now many will say that is because he didn't trust the OL (and he probably didn't). But he's got to rise above that.
one  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 5/18/2017 10:56 am : link
of the biggest myths put out by pundits is that Manning needs a good running game to succeed.
As  
Toth029 : 5/18/2017 10:58 am : link
Far as Manning.

You factor in a terrible bookend OT's, Richburg who regressed, non-existence at TE (Tye is okay but that's about it), a #2 TE who is toast and probably going to be out of the league soon enough, and a slot guy who played well but the coach never used him any other way. It was a very simplified offense because of it. Eli did rush some throws and make a few careless balls but the offense was in a rut because they never had anything on the line (so rushing was also affected; i.e. Jennings too was not effective), at TE, or someone to truly take anything off Beckham or that dreaded Cover 2.
RE: RE: ...  
Beer Man : 5/18/2017 10:58 am : link
In comment 13475077 Klaatu said:
Quote:
In comment 13475009 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


My biggest worry is the short-term impact of losing our veteran defensive tackle inside. If Tomlinson or Bromley or Thomas can handle the position, we'll be OK on defense.



Oh, puh-leeze. Hankins was a good player, but he was hardly a difference-maker, and he certainly wasn't irreplaceable.
My issue with losing Hank, wasn't because of the talent we lost (as Eric mentioned he is replaceable), it was more that we had to spend a second round pick to stay even to where we were. Had they signed Hank, that second round pick could have been used to improve the team elsewhere (e.g., LB or OL).
and I am not even knocking Dallas  
djm : 5/18/2017 10:59 am : link
I think they are just taking the long game approach. Their secondary sucked last year so why throw good money, money they didn't even have, after bad. Romo is coming off the books soon and money will avail itself for Dallas to upgrade their garbage D. But then they have to worry about Prescott and even Zeke. Still, they have a good nucleus to build around. But they did not get better at all.

Philly improved. They actually have pro WRs now. But it still comes down to whether Wentz is the real deal. Winning 7 games with little to no pressure was nice. Go win more games in 2017 then I will start to believe in the legend of Carson Wentz.

Skins are ok but seem to have a ceiling and what are they doing at QB...who knows. Who knows if the incumbent QB is even the answer. They are treading water.

The most dangerous and well rounded team in the east is the Giants. Doesn't mean shit in May but any objective take would say that the team with the highest ceiling is NYG.

Eric said it was about Eli. If that's our biggest problem we will be fine. HE was ok last year with one weapon and an bad running game. Think about that for a second.
that's short sighted  
UConn4523 : 5/18/2017 11:01 am : link
signing Hank goes beyond 2017, presumably. And what's wrong with taking another DT high that can be cost controlled for 4 years?

The Giants have found a pretty reliable system when it comes to DT and its helping them free up cash to use on other positions. Compounding that is how effective snacks is that even putting a mediocre DT next to him should net success.
Eric, in 2011 Eli had an absolutely stellar trio of WRs to throw to.  
Klaatu : 5/18/2017 11:02 am : link
Not to mention a TE in Jake Ballard who, although not a burner by any means, was a big target with a knack for getting open and catching everything that was thrown his way.

Eli's supporting cast in 2016 couldn't hold a candle to the ones from 2011.
Eric, comparing last yea's offense and OL  
djm : 5/18/2017 11:03 am : link
to 2011 is laughable. Cmon. That team had 3 legit star WRs and a functioning group of TEs. Tough if older RBs and a game OL that knew when to kick things into a higher gear. That 2011 offense is criminally underrated. IT was ten times better that last year's unit.

Eli wasn't carrying anything last year because there was nothing to carry. I keep saying it, but a lot of you folks were blinded by a fake story offense from 2014-2015. That offense had little to no staying power other than Beckham. It finally regressed last year and now we all want to put the blame on McAdoo or Eli. Blame the players. They weren't any good. 2016 was a building block year for the offense. IT wasn't fools gold like 2015.
RE: RE: RE: ...  
GuzzaBlue : 5/18/2017 11:03 am : link
In comment 13475135 Beer Man said:
Quote:
In comment 13475077 Klaatu said:


Quote:


In comment 13475009 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


My biggest worry is the short-term impact of losing our veteran defensive tackle inside. If Tomlinson or Bromley or Thomas can handle the position, we'll be OK on defense.



Oh, puh-leeze. Hankins was a good player, but he was hardly a difference-maker, and he certainly wasn't irreplaceable.

My issue with losing Hank, wasn't because of the talent we lost (as Eric mentioned he is replaceable), it was more that we had to spend a second round pick to stay even to where we were. Had they signed Hank, that second round pick could have been used to improve the team elsewhere (e.g., LB or OL).


That's the whole nature of the business though. You can't keep everyone. You have to choose where to let go if you don't think a guy is worth money and replace him with cost controlled players. What do you think the Pats do. You see them get rid of guys like Jamie Collins, their starting G in the middle of the season, vince Wilfork. They do the same thing with guys they know can be replaced in the draft for a cost controlled contract.
One  
Toth029 : 5/18/2017 11:03 am : link
Big difference between 2011 and that offense last year was #2 receiver. In 2011 you obviously had Nicks, but once Cruz broke out and Manningham flourished on the other end, the pass became great. Throw in Ballard who on his worst day is better than any TE they had last year. Even a broken Jacobs and Bradshaw were better than Jennings.

Does Eli need a run game to be effective? If you want to use PA it does matter. What upper echelon QB doesn't have help? Big Ben gets the best RB and one of the best WR's in the league but Eli's the who gets help from OBJ. That type of perception is why most pundits are goofs.
RE: And yes  
djm : 5/18/2017 11:05 am : link
In comment 13475122 Mr. Nickels said:
[quote] Giants had a pretty bad offseason.. [/quote

The off-season would have been a complete disaster if the Giants doled out 50 million for a garbage injured OT or the same for a solid guard. It would have been bad if they didn't sign Ellison as well.

You can't force the issue in FA. You take what is given and move on.
Totally, disagree with you Eric......  
Doomster : 5/18/2017 11:06 am : link
Eric from BBI : Admin : 10:14 am : link : reply
My biggest worry is the short-term impact of losing our veteran defensive tackle inside. If Tomlinson or Bromley or Thomas can handle the position, we'll be OK on defense.

On offense, it's not the line. It's Manning. If he rebounds, we're good.


It wasn't Eli.....it was his lack of options.....outside of OBj what did he have? Shepard played well, but he had huge drops....Cruz was a shell of what he was, while also playing out of position.....We lost Vereen early in the season....Jennings fell off a cliff....and while the OL wasn't stellar, it had it's moments.....the main problem, was the TE's and WR's in the running game.....our TE's whiffed on so many blocks, that the defense was in the backfield before the line could even get going....asking Cruz to block downfield was a joke....not having a blocking FB, was a head scratcher on the front office's part....as Klaatu has mentioned, maybe Smith is the answer....

On third down, with few options, Eli was not only predictable, but the defense just unloaded on him and did not give him the time.....

With a double TE set of Engram and Ellison, and third and short yardage, Eli's options will be off the chart....the defense will have to cover people this year.....the option to run OR pass, will be there....this offense will score, even with this line....

As for the DT position.....Hardly any team has 4 stellar defensive linemen.....we have 3.....Eric you could play and be adequate....instead, we have three guys who will beat you out of that job.....one of them will fill in more than adequately, for Hankins.....
RE: that's short sighted  
GuzzaBlue : 5/18/2017 11:06 am : link
In comment 13475144 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
signing Hank goes beyond 2017, presumably. And what's wrong with taking another DT high that can be cost controlled for 4 years?

The Giants have found a pretty reliable system when it comes to DT and its helping them free up cash to use on other positions. Compounding that is how effective snacks is that even putting a mediocre DT next to him should net success.


Exactly. Plus, when you get a guy like Tomlinson, tremendous upside, he could be better than Hank every was after one year on a much much cheaper price over 4 years. Hank was not a world-beater. Solid, but replaceable.
RE: one  
djm : 5/18/2017 11:07 am : link
In comment 13475130 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
of the biggest myths put out by pundits is that Manning needs a good running game to succeed.


Sort of. What isn't a myth is that Eli needs a good D to succeed. Give Eli a decent to good D and the Giants are competitive or better every single season.

A running game doesn't hurt. From 05-2010 the Giants had a good to great running game. How many of those teams won less than eight games? None. How many won more than eight? Four.
The rest of the division drafted to our weakness  
ghost718 : 5/18/2017 11:11 am : link
Jonathan Allen,Charlton,Derek Barnett.All defensive lineman.

and combined with Irving and some of last years picks,that Dallas d-line isn't looking half bad.They can probably ship Randy Gregory to Amsterdam if they want
One thing to defend Erics point  
GuzzaBlue : 5/18/2017 11:14 am : link
Eli is on the back nine. It's not crazy to assume his physical tools are diminishing. He's never missed a game (knock on wood), that's how many throws? Consider that with a crap OL that gave up QB rushes on every play, he was rushing throws when he had time. And at times he missed guys with time to throw. The timing with the WR's wasn't all there either. Probably mostly due to the OL, but not crazy to assume Eli's arm isn't what it used to be.

5 years ago, he had one of the best deep balls in the game. I just didn't see that last year when he did throw deep. Just as the OL, he needs to step it up a bit as well.
it's easy to put it all on the OL  
djm : 5/18/2017 11:16 am : link
but Marshall Newhouse, everyone's favorite whipping boy and supposed weak link alone the OL, is penciled in as the starter for a great Oakland OL. If Richburg and Pugh left they'd get big money and start elsewhere. Flowers is the wild card but he's entering his 3rd year.

If the 2014 and 2015 offenses didn't fool any of us and instead scored 300 pts each year we would all be saying the 2016 offense took nice baby steps towards consistency. Add in the players added this off-season and we'd be giddy. Instead I see a lot of people blaming McAdoo and Eli for last year's struggling offense. The same McAdoo that turned the Giants offense around in 2014-15 and the same QB many here have as a HOF lock.

Newhouse is starting in Oakland. Where's Victor Cruz? Where is Jennings? Where is Donnell? Where will Tye be in three months?

The TEs, WRs and RBs last year were as bad a collection of NYG players we have ever seen since the mid 90s, save for BEckham. That's a fact. Look it up if you don't believe me. They still won 11 games and scored points when they had to. Now they have added THREE legit talents to replace the dead weight. And that's not even counting on maturation from Shepard, Flowers and better health from Pugh and Richburg.

The offense is dramatically improved. It needed to be.
Outside of acquiring a veteran LT,  
George from PA : 5/18/2017 11:16 am : link
The Giants exceeded my expectations.

Brandon Marshall availability and acquiring at reasonable $$$$....had me at hello!

Losing Hankins was only options vs paying 10million per year....which he is not worth it. DT can be an upgrade for all we know....Hankins missed how many games?
The Giants didn't miss a beat.

Washington lost some serious WR talent....had a great draft.
Improve more......debatable

Eagles....improved more.....i would agree....as didn't lose much and general had good additions. I would think Wentz 2nd year will tell us more about their future the anything else.

Dallas lost their entire backfield???? No way did they get better.....at least not this year depending on so many rookies.

Giants is team to beat imho.
The skill players in 2011 were better, BUT  
Keith : 5/18/2017 11:16 am : link
OBJ is better than Nicks. Shepard is better than Manningham. Ballard? Cmon now. Cruz in his prime was a weapon and we didn't have that last year, but OBJ and Shepard are a really good start.
that's no to say  
djm : 5/18/2017 11:18 am : link
that I expect the O to score 470 pts in 2017. I don't. But I think it will be much more consistent. This team will go as far as the defense goes and Eli goes in January, if we can make it there.
Eric is right  
Dave on the UWS : 5/18/2017 11:19 am : link
and people need to get there head out of their asses and see clearly
1. OJB has inflated Eli's numbers for 3 years now. Makes his stats look like like he's playing better than he is. In reality Eli has been very mediocre for large stretches of his career.
2. He's 36 the odds are he will get worse not better AND become more injury prone because of age.
3. The WCO is designed to minimize the OL so blaming them totally for the offensive ineptitude is off base. I will buy the argument about Cruz, the TEs and Vereen's absence.

It's all about the QB and whether Eli can still play top level football is a VERY good question (which explains why they drafted a QB this year and didn't wait until next year)
RE: The rest of the division drafted to our weakness  
Toth029 : 5/18/2017 11:26 am : link
In comment 13475174 ghost718 said:
Quote:
Jonathan Allen,Charlton,Derek Barnett.All defensive lineman.

and combined with Irving and some of last years picks,that Dallas d-line isn't looking half bad.They can probably ship Randy Gregory to Amsterdam if they want

Only the Eagles DL worries me.

Redskins also Chris Baker. Their DB's are also not good.

Dallas got Taco but he's not a threat so much rushing the passer. Lawrence is a good DE but he's just one. They lost McClain at DT. They also lost many DB's from last year and are thin at those spots.

Currently, their starters and depth is

CB 1 Anthony Brown (rookies and Leon McFadden as depth
CB 2 Nolan Carroll (Orlando Scandrick is nickel)
FS Byron Jones (5th round rookie behind him)
SS battle between Jeff Heath and Robert Blanton (exicte)
RE: The skill players in 2011 were better, BUT  
Klaatu : 5/18/2017 11:27 am : link
In comment 13475191 Keith said:
Quote:
OBJ is better than Nicks. Shepard is better than Manningham. Ballard? Cmon now. Cruz in his prime was a weapon and we didn't have that last year, but OBJ and Shepard are a really good start.


Man, just stop. Jake Ballard averaged 15.9 ypc in 2011. He was light-years better than Tye or Donnell (or even both put together). 38 catches for 604 yards and 4 TDs when he was, at best, the 4th option. And he may not have been Howard Cross 2.0, but he was a good blocker, which is something that neither Tye or Donnell are.

You don't look at the WRs as individuals. You look at them as a unit, and Nicks, Cruz (the 2011 version), and Manningham were much better than OBJ, Cruz (the 2016 version), and Shepard. They complemented each other very well and came up big when the money was on the line.
RE: Eric is right  
Toth029 : 5/18/2017 11:32 am : link
In comment 13475198 Dave on the UWS said:
Quote:
and people need to get there head out of their asses and see clearly
1. OJB has inflated Eli's numbers for 3 years now. Makes his stats look like like he's playing better than he is. In reality Eli has been very mediocre for large stretches of his career.

I'll bite. I'll throw out Rodgers and Brady, because with Peyton, they're greater than the rest.

Name other upper echelon QB's and tell me how they DON'T receive help. At least in one spot. The Falcons last year? Yeah Julio gets hobbled, but he has the best one two punch at RB, he has Sanu and Gabriel spreading out the defenses.

He had a fantastic OL. Now you're turn. (please tell me how great the Steelers offense is because Ben's so tough)
Dave on the UWS nailed it  
GuzzaBlue : 5/18/2017 11:34 am : link
Brady doesn't have a much better OL. Not trying to compare the two QB's, but you can be successful with a mediocre OL especially in a WC offense designed for quick throws.

I think the biggest issues last year:
1. Lack of a receiving TE, seam-splitter, checkdown whatever you want to call it.
2. Lack of running game mainly because there was no affect on any play action plays.

We had ONE skill player(OBJ) and 2 rookies (Shep & Perkin)  
George from PA : 5/18/2017 11:36 am : link
Cruz was a shadow of himself....and TE was
Worst talent in NFL.....and OL forced quick decisions.....Eli took a step back due to one reliable option.

Shepard in 2nd year is now 4th best option vs 2nd......Big big difference
RE: RE: Eric is right  
Klaatu : 5/18/2017 11:37 am : link
In comment 13475219 Toth029 said:
Quote:
In comment 13475198 Dave on the UWS said:


Quote:


and people need to get there head out of their asses and see clearly
1. OJB has inflated Eli's numbers for 3 years now. Makes his stats look like like he's playing better than he is. In reality Eli has been very mediocre for large stretches of his career.


I'll bite. I'll throw out Rodgers and Brady, because with Peyton, they're greater than the rest.

Name other upper echelon QB's and tell me how they DON'T receive help. At least in one spot. The Falcons last year? Yeah Julio gets hobbled, but he has the best one two punch at RB, he has Sanu and Gabriel spreading out the defenses.

He had a fantastic OL. Now you're turn. (please tell me how great the Steelers offense is because Ben's so tough)


How about what Eli has done for OBJ? Do you think he'd be happier catching passes from some lesser QB?
the better comparison is to 2013  
UConn4523 : 5/18/2017 11:43 am : link
.
Jints improved  
ChicagoMarty : 5/18/2017 11:44 am : link
their weakest position from last year TE.

Adding Marshall to replace Cruz has to be another big upgrade at WR

Rb should be improved just by giving Perkins more snaps. A healthy Vereen has to help

Ol is a work in progress but weapons have been added.

Secondary depth is my biggest concern given the mismatches we had with Green Bay's wr's last year when DRC went down and our other corners were dinged. Adams play tailed off as the season went on

I disagree with JR's draft approach where he spent a second on a DT that will likely leave for more money when his contract is up as previous DTs have done. We could have drafted another fat guy to play a few plays against the run in a later round or just plugged in a UDFA DT and used a valuable second round choice on a quality OL, CB or S.

Also disagree with using a valuable third rounder on a gamble of a qb who won't see the field for years when multiple corners and safeties were available who could contribute this year.

This is a passing league now and the draft emphasis has to be improving our passing game offensively and defensively.

We addressed part of the above
DT....the Giants know what they are doing  
GiantJake : 5/18/2017 11:52 am : link
Teams can't pay a premium for all four defensive linemen. Everyone was pissed when Barry Cofield left. What the hell are the Giants thinking? Then Linval Joseph comes in and becomes a good player and nobody cares about Cofield anymore. Then Linval Joseph leaves and Reese is an idiot again...until Hankins takes over and it's not a big deal anymore. Now it's Tomlinson's turn. Tomlinson comes into the league as a more accomplished player than Cofield, Joseph or Hankins were. He is pretty damn close to being plug and play as a part of the DL rotation. Will there be growing pains? Probably. Jay Bromley is going into his 3rd year and the position next to Snacks is his to lose right now. This is his shot. I know that I am in the minority, but my bet is that Bromley comes to camp super motivated and starts the season as the starter next to Snacks.
RE: ...  
gmenatlarge : 5/18/2017 12:05 pm : link
In comment 13475009 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
My biggest worry is the short-term impact of losing our veteran defensive tackle inside. If Tomlinson or Bromley or Thomas can handle the position, we'll be OK on defense.

On offense, it's not the line. It's Manning. If he rebounds, we're good.

I think Hankins can be replaced, but I am surprised to hear you say it's not the line, this was one of the worst lines in football last year. Eli will perform well if he has a running game and some time to throw.
2011 offensive line/TEs were better than 2016 group  
Jimmy Googs : 5/18/2017 12:22 pm : link
Terrible run blockers in both years, but at least the 2011 gang could hold up in pass blocking. Diehl had his flaws but at least him and McKenzie could actually allow Eli to get off a 3rd/long pass.

And Eli moved around in the pocket better then, and now he has less interest in doing so.

And without question:
Nicks/Cruz/Mann/Ballard > OBJ/Cruz/Shepard/Tye
I like Barnwell  
kash94 : 5/18/2017 12:23 pm : link
for the most part but disagreed a lot with the article.

His specific issues with the offseason were
1- No OL upgrades
2- Signing JPP
3- Not signing Hankins

I think re: 1, it sucks that there were no big improvements for the OL, and it figures to be a weakness for the Giants again; but you also have to consider the options that were out there. Every, even somewhat notable OL, got a MASSIVE contract. Many of these deals were simply not good value but because of the OL issues around the league, people overpaid. The Giants were already pressed for space + need to resign Pugh and Richburg next year.

We've talked about this many times, but the OL prospects in the draft weren't great either and at 23, what options did the Giants really have? Plus, if you were to draft an OL early, TE would be an issue.

--

RE: 2 I agree that JPP, given his health issues, is a risky guy to pay a top dollar deal. But, end of the day, he didn't get a top deal. Guys like Vernon, Wilkerson, Jones, JJ Watt, all got more money than JPP. So JPP has his issues, but he was priced accordingly.

Re: 3 It sucks that Hankins left, but devoting so many resources to the DL would be a mistake. Plus (Barnwell cited how Tomlinson isn't a pass rushing DT), you can always just substitute Tomlinson with Bromley or Thomas on passing downs if needed. If Harrison goes down, the Giants don't have a run stuffer on the roster.

--

Dallas literally lost a third of their starters. Not sure how they don't have the lowest grade.

with a touch of creativity on offense in fact  
gtt350 : 5/18/2017 12:34 pm : link
any creativity we will be a very dangerous team
Barnwell also said last year  
DieHard : 5/18/2017 12:52 pm : link
That you can't throw a bunch of $ at defensive players and expect things to get better.

Then again, I stopped paying attention to Barnwell when he asserted that now ex-Bears GM Phil Emery was going to succeed because he actually took the time to tell folks in press conferences what his strategy was.

As for what ails the Giants' offense, why can't it be a little bit of everything? They were definitely short on quality personnel last year, there were times in which Eli was skittish, and even though McAdoo managed the games well, it's like he gave up trying to improve the offense as the season progressed.
The funny thing about Barnwell is...  
Bramton1 : 5/18/2017 12:56 pm : link
...he's a Giants fan. I feel like he tries to prove he's a objective journalist by being especially harse toward them.
those grades are junk  
msh : 5/18/2017 1:00 pm : link
i wanted hankins back but not at 10m per he just wasnt that good,as has been stated had he been a consistant inside rusher he MAY have been worth a bigger contract but he wasnt thats top level wages for a mid level player ill be interested to see how he plays in indy,i expect a big slide back without harrison beside him as the jets DL did when snacks left there to come here

eli had some struggles and threw some bad passes but during the playoff game manning looked really sharp,the OL however didnt open up holes to get any meaningful running game going and allowed far too much pressure on eli. worse when he did get the ball where it needed to be even beckham had bad drops

vereen was an important safety valve for eli and at the time probably the only one they could use to defeat the coverage the WR were getting,they had no deep threat WR, look to past years manningham,barden,dixon all had either size or speed defences HAD to account for that all sub 6 foot group lacked the size and speed to do that (except beckham obviously) none of that group i mentioned are superstars by any stretch but the kept the defence off balance in ways last years group couldnt

they added the fastest TE in the draft,most nfl ready by all accounts too,he isnt a true inline TE but the giants already believe they have that with adams and supplemented that with the blocking TE ellison. i have been advocating the addition of a move type TE ever since shockey left and im glad they finally got that it will add a big dimension to a very flat and predictable offence they had last year inside the redzone they now have 2 targets that can out muscle and get open quickly that is a game changer for a team with a very good defence to lean on

the OL is weakness league wide as the crazy prices even so so OL players are getting in free agency,the giants want to keep beckham and overpaying for an OL would probably mean they lack the cap space to re-sign him shortly,even then i think it takes a restructure or paycut to manning to keep beckham in big blue

i believe part of why they drafted webb they needed some leverage to get eli to take less. if this team wins the the big one, eli may even wish to retire that 3rd trophy would cement his HOF credentials and be the way to go out as peyton did on a high not the way simms did being cut bouncing around a few teams before realising he was past it and being forced into retirement that way



you don't get the Lombardi Trophy for "winning the offseason"  
Victor in CT : 5/18/2017 1:01 pm : link
ask Andy Reid and the 2011 Eagles. WTF cares.
The additions of Fluker,  
Simms11 : 5/18/2017 1:04 pm : link
Marshall, Ellison and the draft class, minus Webb, of course, makes this team so much better in a number of ways.

Competition on the Oline will be better with Fluker. Adding Bisnowaty in the draft and UDFAs in Wheeler and Dunker was also big IMO. They may not be capable of contributing a whole lot this year, but if they develop, they will make this Oline much, much better; and by the way, Wheeler and Dunker were both rated top 10 in the respective positions.

Marshall is a much better target, right now, then VC. Not only is he much bigger, blocks better, but he's an outside receiver. He'll contribute greatly as a large target for Eli.

Ellison was a great pick up as a blocking TE and should, not only help the Oline out, but the running game.

Engram adds a dimension at TE that will make the defense nervous.

Tomlinson is just as capable as Hankins and in fact might prove to be more valuable, but he is a rookie. I'm sure they'll rotate Bromley and Thomas into the lineup more this year, until DT shows he can handle it all.

Skipping Webb

Gallman played in the SEC and was very successful for a National Champion. Good player who should contribute from the get go.

Moss is raw and played in a lower level of competition, but has the athleticism for the position. This is the guy that I'm hoping Reese hit gold with. We desperately need that 3rd pass rusher.

Bisnowaty already addressed

Forgot to add the other UDFAs picked up, like Jadar Johnson, who also played in the SEC and should provide nice competition for the secondary.

And so I'm not sure how this team gets a C- for that off-season? Oline is the only position not fully addressed, but you can say money and quality just wasn't there to address it this off-season. This is the one position where we have to HOPE all goes better this year.

Eli does have to play better and he knows it too. I think with the addition of the players this off-season that his play will improve and the offense as a whole with him. More points should be scored per game and we'll need it more-so this year against some pretty stiff competition.

And now lastly, I was listening to WYSP (Philly Radio) on my way to work today only to hear delusional Philly fans think that the Blount signing will make them playoff contenders, Division Champs and end up with a record of 11-5 or 12-4. This time of year every team is considered contenders by their respective fan base and should. This is the time for dreaming. These grades IMO are worthless and only give the media something else to write about when there is nothing. Let's see how all these off-season additions play next year before making grades on who had the better off-season. There's so many variables (chemistry, scheme, injuries, etc) that can change that.
By adding Fluker, Ellison, Marshall and Engram  
Don in DC : 5/18/2017 1:05 pm : link
the Giants substantially beefed up the quality of Eli's weapons as well as his protection. If Flowers and Hart progress at all from last year, this offense will be much improved.

So, the Giants didn't lose any significant players other than Hankins (who I expect to be very capably replaced by Dalvin Tomlinson) and added some crucial talent on the offense.

Meanwhile, Dallas lost an absolute shitload of talent, particularly on their D -- including most of their starting defensive line and backfield. They also lost Leary at OG, who was a huge part of their O-line dominance.

Hard to imagine how anyone could say that Dallas didn't have the worst offseason in the division.
RE: The additions of Fluker,  
Don in DC : 5/18/2017 1:08 pm : link
In comment 13475360 Simms11 said:
Quote:
Marshall, Ellison and the draft class, minus Webb, of course, makes this team so much better in a number of ways.

Competition on the Oline will be better with Fluker. Adding Bisnowaty in the draft and UDFAs in Wheeler and Dunker was also big IMO. They may not be capable of contributing a whole lot this year, but if they develop, they will make this Oline much, much better; and by the way, Wheeler and Dunker were both rated top 10 in the respective positions.

Marshall is a much better target, right now, then VC. Not only is he much bigger, blocks better, but he's an outside receiver. He'll contribute greatly as a large target for Eli.

Ellison was a great pick up as a blocking TE and should, not only help the Oline out, but the running game.

Engram adds a dimension at TE that will make the defense nervous.

Tomlinson is just as capable as Hankins and in fact might prove to be more valuable, but he is a rookie. I'm sure they'll rotate Bromley and Thomas into the lineup more this year, until DT shows he can handle it all.

Skipping Webb

Gallman played in the SEC and was very successful for a National Champion. Good player who should contribute from the get go.

Moss is raw and played in a lower level of competition, but has the athleticism for the position. This is the guy that I'm hoping Reese hit gold with. We desperately need that 3rd pass rusher.

Bisnowaty already addressed

Forgot to add the other UDFAs picked up, like Jadar Johnson, who also played in the SEC and should provide nice competition for the secondary.

And so I'm not sure how this team gets a C- for that off-season? Oline is the only position not fully addressed, but you can say money and quality just wasn't there to address it this off-season. This is the one position where we have to HOPE all goes better this year.

Eli does have to play better and he knows it too. I think with the addition of the players this off-season that his play will improve and the offense as a whole with him. More points should be scored per game and we'll need it more-so this year against some pretty stiff competition.

And now lastly, I was listening to WYSP (Philly Radio) on my way to work today only to hear delusional Philly fans think that the Blount signing will make them playoff contenders, Division Champs and end up with a record of 11-5 or 12-4. This time of year every team is considered contenders by their respective fan base and should. This is the time for dreaming. These grades IMO are worthless and only give the media something else to write about when there is nothing. Let's see how all these off-season additions play next year before making grades on who had the better off-season. There's so many variables (chemistry, scheme, injuries, etc) that can change that.


Or I could just have said "This."
RE: those grades are junk  
DieHard : 5/18/2017 1:28 pm : link
In comment 13475352 msh said:
Quote:
eli had some struggles and threw some bad passes but during the playoff game manning looked really sharp,the OL however didnt open up holes to get any meaningful running game going and allowed far too much pressure on eli. worse when he did get the ball where it needed to be even beckham had bad drops


Just goes to show how much needs to be done across the board on offense. We had Eli in good form vs a MASH-unit Packer D that surrendered 75 points in its other two playoff games, and we put up a whopping 13 against them.
This mainstream media narrative  
Dnew15 : 5/18/2017 1:39 pm : link
of the Giants not doing enough to improve their offensive line is a damned if you do/damned if you don't situation. If the Giants went out and overspent for mediocre or aging tackle talent (ie. Okung, Reiff, etc.) then the narrative becomes the Giants made a mistake and overspent for guys that aren't good or are too old. If the Giants drafted one of the round one tackles (Bolles, Robinson, Ramczyk, etc.) then the narrative becomes the Giants reached and took an offensive lineman too early. Screw them - I hate these click bait kinds of articles - but damn it I can't stop reading them...I'm like a bug to one of those zappers!
The Cowboys easily had the worst  
area junc : 5/18/2017 2:09 pm : link
offseason in the NFC East. Romo's gone (their security blanket in case Dak isn't as good as he looked). Witten looked like Father Time was tapping him on the shoulder last year. 2/5's of their OLine walked out the door in free agency, as did both their starting S's, starting CB and their best DT McClain.

This on the heels of another Randy Gregory suspension, Jaylon Smith still up in the air and the very real possibility Dak takes a step back with defensive coordinators having a dossier on him. They can start by studying what the Giants did.
Wasn't Rhett Ellison the primary lead blocker on a team  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 5/18/2017 2:13 pm : link
whose RB rushed for almost 1500 yards 2 years ago?


Nearly the Cowboys' entire secondary left in free agency and have been replaced by rookies. How the Giants could've had a worse offseason than that, IDK.
I think Eric nailed it:  
81_Great_Dane : 5/18/2017 2:16 pm : link
O-line play is declining league-wide. You'd think that the market would self-correct, and that with a scarcity of good offensive linemen, their value would increase and supply would grow. But that doesn't seem to be happening.

That could be because the salary cap effectively limits compensation for linemen; it could be due to limited practice time and very limited full-contact practices; or it could be that defenders and defenses have improved and offenses haven't caught up.

Whatever it is, the assumption seems to be that the Giants are simply failing to solve their line problems. I've been pretty harsh about their front office, noting that they've tried and failed, which is worse than not trying. But maybe the problem is bigger -- maybe the Giants' line problems are simply reflecting a larger decline in O-line play. Maybe the solution the pundits are demanding doesn't exist anymore.

The game evolves. Maybe it's going to take a radical change in offensive schemes and line techniques to adjust to this evolution. I have no idea what that would be.

RE: I think Eric nailed it:  
UConn4523 : 5/18/2017 2:21 pm : link
In comment 13475468 81_Great_Dane said:
Quote:
O-line play is declining league-wide. You'd think that the market would self-correct, and that with a scarcity of good offensive linemen, their value would increase and supply would grow. But that doesn't seem to be happening.

That could be because the salary cap effectively limits compensation for linemen; it could be due to limited practice time and very limited full-contact practices; or it could be that defenders and defenses have improved and offenses haven't caught up.

Whatever it is, the assumption seems to be that the Giants are simply failing to solve their line problems. I've been pretty harsh about their front office, noting that they've tried and failed, which is worse than not trying. But maybe the problem is bigger -- maybe the Giants' line problems are simply reflecting a larger decline in O-line play. Maybe the solution the pundits are demanding doesn't exist anymore.

The game evolves. Maybe it's going to take a radical change in offensive schemes and line techniques to adjust to this evolution. I have no idea what that would be.


Great post. Like most things its a combination of multiple reasons which is why I never understood that posts lambasting 1 particular entity (Reese, Solari, McAdoo, etc). They all need to dig a bit deeper for a solution, one that simply isn't obvious or easy to do.

But this past draft tells me the Giants are thinking the league is changing a bit. Their OL pieces probably aren't that far behind that of a top 15 unit and they aren't going to blow major assets if the talent gap is minimal. I also think with Marshall/Engram we are going to see a completely different offense than we saw in 2016.

Its fun to be a Giants fan right now, so much can happen in 2017 and its easily the most pumped i've been for football to start in years.
Again with the offensive line!  
trueblueinpw : 5/18/2017 2:39 pm : link
Barnwell must be like a god to many here at BBI that want to keel haul Reese & company for "failing" to address the offensive line. In the linked article Barnwell also knocks the Pokes for their failure to address the fact that they lost two starters on the greatest offensive line ever assembled before God Almighty.

As if, the Giants and Cowboys could both go into a draft and a UFA class which everyone said was very poor in OL quality and yet somehow snatch an All Pro can't miss LT and G. It's kind of unfair to say JR should have addressed OL without saying exactly how that was going to happen.

Thought his take on the defense was interesting. Disagree about JPP being overpaid, think he's a big part of our defense and do not think this was the time to let him walk. JPP gets just as much anywhere else, maybe more, so it's a market thing and you can't blame JR for that. He sort pooh-poos Snacks and DT as "just" two down players with similar skills. Sign me up for Davlin Thomlinson turning out to be another Snacks type player.

Good read, thanks to OP for posting. As always, in Reese we trust...
RE: ...  
EricJ : 5/18/2017 2:44 pm : link
In comment 13475009 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:

On offense, it's not the line. It's Manning. If he rebounds, we're good.


I mentioned this last season but it did not get much attention. To me, this is not about Eli regressing or anything like that. I think defenses have figured out that they can force Eli to check out of his original play easily by showing him a defense pre-snap that he is not comfortable with. Yes, the O-line bears part of that responsibility because he is checking out of the play because it looks like a jailbreak is coming and he needs to protect himself.

Regardless, to me it looked like too often he was changing the play at the line. Way too often and it is as if we were not running the play that we wanted to for the most part.

In summary, the defenses were forcing Eli to check to plays they would rather we run.
RE: You  
BronxBob : 5/18/2017 3:34 pm : link
In comment 13475116 Toth029 said:
Quote:
Know, I expected BIG things from Hankins in 2016. We can talk about Eli should've played better or Flowers, whoever. What pains me is seeing a very talented guy like John Hankins paired up with, in my view anyways, the best interior DL right next to him and on the other end is JPP. Yet he could hardly muster any pass rush. They took him out eventually on 3rd downs because of it. I don't understand why he all of a sudden couldn't get anything going rushing the QB. Was he not playing the same position when he had 7 sacks? He did good in 2015 despite the numbers. And there he had freakin' Kuhn beside him.

His loss isn't going to be one I think will make a huge difference. As long as Snacks is there they will be fine. I was impressed with how well Robert Thomas looked in brief time. Bromley needs a good pre-season and camp. Tomlinson -- all he needs is to come in and plug the run. That's not a lot to ask and I think he can handle it.



Maybe Kuhn skating with one blocker on each arm helped him out?
Don in DC......  
Simms11 : 5/18/2017 3:39 pm : link
Too funny!
djm  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 5/18/2017 3:41 pm : link
Defense still wins. So every quarterback looks "better" with a great defense. (Fans are more forgiving - a little - if they have a win on Sunday rather than a loss).

But in 2011, our defense was atrocious until the playoff run. Eli kept us alive until then with 7 or 8 4th quarter comebacks. I think our defense was ranked 30th or 31st that season.
RE: Rover  
RetroJint : 5/18/2017 3:44 pm : link
In comment 13475126 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I've seen Manning play with a shitty OL (2011)...dead last running the ball....both our tackles sucking in pass protection.

He was arguably the league MVP that year.

As Klaatu says above, we had lots of issues on offense (no TE or RB was huge too). Cruz was toast as he points out.

But this was the third year in the WCO system for Manning and I expected better. There were times he just played scared. Now many will say that is because he didn't trust the OL (and he probably didn't). But he's got to rise above that.


Agreed about him playing scared. In fact the game he played against the Vikings was the worst case of nerves that I've ever seen from a Giant QB & I have memories of the Bears beating the shit out of YA in '63.
As for his need for a solid running game, that was accurate when he was in the vertical. He threw a beautiful deep post off a play fake. In this finesse offense, the dink pass takes the place of the running game. Play fakes mean shit in the Gun. He can't do the 2-man read .
We will see. This front office spent a fortune last year  
TMS : 5/18/2017 3:47 pm : link
to save their jobs, from another shit year, and it worked. Now we are back to reality. The same guys who ran a championship team into the ground with their player acquisitions in the draft, and FA are still here, without, all the money to spend.
RetroJint  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 5/18/2017 3:59 pm : link
Dave Brown was toast at the end of his career too. His nerves were shot. He would stop looking down field and look at the rush.
RE: We will see. This front office spent a fortune last year  
David in LA : 5/18/2017 4:02 pm : link
In comment 13475547 TMS said:
Quote:
to save their jobs, from another shit year, and it worked. Now we are back to reality. The same guys who ran a championship team into the ground with their player acquisitions in the draft, and FA are still here, without, all the money to spend.


You do realize the same guys built two championship teams, right? Very strange the lengths you go to credit everyone else but Reese for the success. Your insinuation that he was a Rooney Rule hire is more than telling.
Its inconclusive  
Peppers : 5/18/2017 4:18 pm : link
How can we say one way or the other right now? Its far too early.

RE: RE: one  
BlackburnBalledOut : 5/18/2017 6:28 pm : link
In comment 13475163 djm said:
Quote:
In comment 13475130 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


of the biggest myths put out by pundits is that Manning needs a good running game to succeed.



Sort of. What isn't a myth is that Eli needs a good D to succeed. Give Eli a decent to good D and the Giants are competitive or better every single season.

A running game doesn't hurt. From 05-2010 the Giants had a good to great running game. How many of those teams won less than eight games? None. How many won more than eight? Four.


Eli does not need a good D to be successfull just look at 2011. Eli needs time to throw the ball and let routes develop. the offense needs to include more deep shots the play calling was riddling with short yardage passing plays
RE: RE: RE: one  
SGMen : 5/18/2017 10:39 pm : link
In comment 13475672 BlackburnBalledOut said:
Quote:
In comment 13475163 djm said:


Quote:


In comment 13475130 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


of the biggest myths put out by pundits is that Manning needs a good running game to succeed.



Sort of. What isn't a myth is that Eli needs a good D to succeed. Give Eli a decent to good D and the Giants are competitive or better every single season.

A running game doesn't hurt. From 05-2010 the Giants had a good to great running game. How many of those teams won less than eight games? None. How many won more than eight? Four.



Eli does not need a good D to be successfull just look at 2011. Eli needs time to throw the ball and let routes develop. the offense needs to include more deep shots the play calling was riddling with short yardage passing plays
I disagree. The Giants defense "got hot" late 2011 and played well in the playoffs. Eli made plays with his side-stepping, getting away from pass rush or just throwing well in the face of the rush - fearless. I am not so sure he can do that much anymore.

If I'm the Giants, I do much like New England: hit the open, easy throw. Someone is open every play and it seems like Brady has radar for that guy and goes there 95% of the time. Eli can be pretty good in that regard too with his 2.5 second release style.

I also think we'll be going deep at times during games, when coverages call for it AND when teams pinch up to stop the run or short pass game. I still love Brandon Marshall against #2 corners - 1 on 1. I also think Engram will be running some routes that maximize his skill set down the middle and he'll feast with OBJ taking coverages.

We had a great off-season IF the following happens:

1. Brandon Marshall has that one very good season left in him, that 80-1050-8 TD type season where he simply beats his #2 cover corner man consistently giving Eli a reliable, viable target.

2. TE Ellison - if he can open up our run game and help our OT's pass protect, he was well worth the money we paid him.

3. TE Engram, DT Tomlinson, RB Gellman, OL Bisnotaway - will the core of our draft class provide solid production in 2017, even if late? I've always believed that when a draft class begins paying dividends during a season, even if in the final 5 or so games, it changes the LOOK & FEEL of a team for the better.

4. K - have we improved with a strong leg? Hard to say?

5. UDFA's - how many stick cause they deserve to?

6. Health of FS D. Thompson & M. Thompson. We can use their talent and speed back there. Mykkele flashed but can he stay healthy? Same with Behre?
RE: djm  
djm : 5/19/2017 10:23 am : link
In comment 13475540 Eric from BBI said:
[quote] Defense still wins. So every quarterback looks "better" with a great defense. (Fans are more forgiving - a little - if they have a win on Sunday rather than a loss).

But in 2011, our defense was atrocious until the playoff run. Eli kept us alive until then with 7 or 8 4th quarter comebacks. I think our defense was ranked 30th or 31st that season. [/quote

Absolutely. Eli was brilliant in 2011. He had a great trio of WRs and functional if not good TEs. The D had a pass rush but didn't really click until December.

I just think some people are glossing over how short on talent last year's offense truly was. Eli and McAdoo looked fine in 2014 and 2015 which sort of fooled us all into thinking that offense was on the way up. Ot obviously wasn't and placing most of the blame on Eli and McAdoo to me just seems crazy. And many here are doing just that. More than likely the struggles were due to defenses figuring out Beckham and Eli a bit more, lack of offensive talent to compensate for that and I also feel that we played to the scoreboard more than in 2014-15. Granted that's a stretch but I have a hard time thinking the Giants offense doesn't get a little crazier in 2016 if the D is terrible.
oh god here we go  
djm : 5/19/2017 10:28 am : link
I didn't necessarily say Eli "NEEDS" a defense to be successful. I said every time he has a good D his teams win at least 8 games or more.

It's a compliment to Eli. Not meant to be a shot.

Once the D kicked things into high gear in 2011 the Giants went from a one trick pony team to a champion. Eli saved that season early and late. The D took it to another level. Ask Dan Marino how his career would look if he had a decent D.

Ill keep saying it. Where are all the starting skill players from last year's offense save for Beckham? They are all out of football or about to be out of football or lucky to have a backup role somewhere. For all this talk of our terribly neglected OL, the worst NYG starter last year, NEwhouse, is starting for Oakland.

and for all this talk of 2011  
djm : 5/19/2017 10:45 am : link
that team was 7-7 and finished 9-7 despite a heroic effort from Eli. Why? Because the D and running game didn't play very well. 2011 is just more proof that Eli does need a good D to be successful, unless you consider 9 wins as something special.

Give the guy a defense like last year and the Giants win 10 games in their sleep despite legions of fans saying Eli struggled. They still win 10.
i do not think so  
BlackburnBalledOut : 5/19/2017 3:17 pm : link
they did the bare minimum to help the OL but they added serious weapons with Marshall and Engram. They replaced Hankins very quickly. They added a blocking tight end to help the line and they added some quality depth in the draft in Gallman (RB) and Bisnowaty(OL). and they may have found the successor to Eli in Davis Webb.

I think Dallas losing Doug Free and Ron Leary is going to hurt. Their secondary is made over with Awuzie, Lewis, and Woods all coming via the draft. Awuzie looks like he may be a solid player but all the tape on lewis tells me he will be a bust. regarless a young secondary + some mediocre vets leaves them vulnerable. idk if we can say they really had a successfull offseason

The Redskins lost jackson and garcon. They added Pryor, but no one else, so they took a step back there in my eyes. They added Allen and Anderson to the D via the draft who should both make immediate impacts on their D. They lost their GM and still havent replaced him.

RE: i do not think so  
SGMen : 5/19/2017 4:32 pm : link
In comment 13476607 BlackburnBalledOut said:
Quote:
they did the bare minimum to help the OL but they added serious weapons with Marshall and Engram. They replaced Hankins very quickly. They added a blocking tight end to help the line and they added some quality depth in the draft in Gallman (RB) and Bisnowaty(OL). and they may have found the successor to Eli in Davis Webb.

I think Dallas losing Doug Free and Ron Leary is going to hurt. Their secondary is made over with Awuzie, Lewis, and Woods all coming via the draft. Awuzie looks like he may be a solid player but all the tape on lewis tells me he will be a bust. regarless a young secondary + some mediocre vets leaves them vulnerable. idk if we can say they really had a successfull offseason

The Redskins lost jackson and garcon. They added Pryor, but no one else, so they took a step back there in my eyes. They added Allen and Anderson to the D via the draft who should both make immediate impacts on their D. They lost their GM and still havent replaced him.
I think we feast on the Dallas DB's opening day. The Dallas defense played over its head last year. The way I see it, Dallas lost two OL's; most DB's; and TE Witten is a year older. I'm not saying Dallas won't have a winning record, but they won't be as good as last year. I just don't see it on "paper" and such.

The Redskins receiving corps took a hit. The Eagles should be better if Wentz improves by a wide margin and I think he will.

I'm hope we start 4-0 again the NFC, 2-0 in the NFC East, and establish ourselves since this team should be strong right out of the gates. We have a TOUGH schedule and we can't afford to have any early close losses.

I think my Thread  
River : 5/19/2017 4:42 pm : link
speaks volumes on this. Giants are stacked to win it all.
RE: I think my Thread  
SGMen : 5/19/2017 4:54 pm : link
In comment 13476690 River said:
Quote:
speaks volumes on this. Giants are stacked to win it all.
Barring injuries, we are fairly stacked. Sure, we could use a #3 WR that was capable of moving up to #2 WR if an injury hit. Sure, we could use a viable, proven fourth CB should an injury hit any of the big 3. Sure, our OT's aren't proven but their is upside hope - at least right now before camp starts.

We have question marks but not nearly as many as our division rivals. The Eagles scare me a bit cause they should be improved BUT I'm not sure by how much just yet.
don't see a big difference  
xtian : 5/19/2017 5:42 pm : link
all the teams did fairly well. i don't see any standing out.

dallas might have the biggest worry with their pass coverage losing almost all their secondary to free agency. also, their OL took two hits with only one ready replacement.
Giants run blocking will be much improved  
xtian : 5/19/2017 5:43 pm : link
the giants blocking got much better at TE, WR [people seem to include WR, but they turn runs into big gains] and wherever fluker plays. all the other guys besides jerry and pugh will most likely improve as well due to just getting more experience since they are so young.
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