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Our OL sucks, right? Well ...

Beezer : 5/19/2017 12:44 pm
... maybe not the best last year. I realize you can't necessarily draw lock-tight conclusions from these types of comparisons, but I wanted to put it all out in front of everyone. Could the organization be doing this JUST the right way? Being patient and adding pieces and some low-risk, high-reward possibilities?

Not sure what the best way to do this is, but here we go.

+++

2007 LT
Dave Diehl (27) 5th round (Giants) 160th pick
2011 LT
Will Beatty (26) 2nd round (Giants) 68th pick
2016 LT
Ereck Flowers (22) 1st round (Giants) 9th pick
2017 LT depth chart
Ereck Flowers (23) 1st round (Giants) 9th pick

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2007 LG
Rich Seubert (28) UDFA (Giants)
2011 LG
Dave Diehl (31) 5th round (Giants) 160th pick
2016 LG
Justin Pugh (25) 1st round (Giants) 19th pick
2017 LG depth chart
Justin Pugh (25) 1st round (Giants) 19th pick
Adam Gettis (27) 5th round (Redskins) 141st pick
Jessamen Dunker (22/23?) UDFA (Giants)

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2007 Center
Shaun O'Hara (30) UDFA (Browns)
2011 Center
David Baas (30) 2nd round (49ers) 33rd pick
2016 Center
Weston Richburg (25) 2nd round (Giants) 43rd pick
2017 Center depth chart
Weston Richburg (26) 2nd round (Giants) 43rd pick
Brett Jones (26) CFL Draft (Giants)

+++

2007 RG
Chris Snee (25) 2nd round (Giants) 34th pick
2011 RG
Chris Snee (29) 2nd round (Giants) 34th pick
2016 RG
John Jerry (30) 3rd round (Dolphins) 73rd pick
Bobby Hart (22) 7th round (Giants) 226th
2017 RG depth chart
John Jerry (31) 3rd round (Dolphins) 73rd pick

+++

2007 RT
Kareem McKenzie (28) 3rd round (Jets) 79th pick
2011 RT
Kareem McKenzie (32) 3rd round (Jets) 79th pick
2016 RT
Marshall Newhouse (27) 5th round (Packers) 169th pick
Adam Gettis (27) 5th round (Redskins) 141st pick
2017 RT depth chart
DJ Fluker (26) 1st round (Chargers) 11th pick
Bobby Hart (23) 7th round (Giants) 226th
Adam Bisnowaty (24) 6th round (Giants) 200th pick

+++

Looking at potentially starting three 1st-rounders (Flowers, Pugh, Fluker), a 2nd-rounder (Richburg) and either a not terrible vet (Jerry), which is likely, or one of a couple decent prospects (Hart or Bisnowaty).

Anybody else feelin' me here? LET'S GO!!!

I think there is upside to this OL  
SGMen : 5/19/2017 12:51 pm : link
The OL is fairly young. This is year #2 under Solari and year #3 in this offense for Flowers, Hart. I believe in OL continuity IF there is talent to build on. I'm not sold on Hart just yet but since he was so bad last year in pass protection I have to believe he improves. If not, well, we could be in trouble unless Fluker can start or Bisnotway totally surprises.

I think Reese does have a "plan" for the OL but there is no guarantee the plan works out, of course. The key this year after health is for Flowers to really step up; for Hart to be serviceable; and, if worthy, for maybe Fluker to outright beat out Jerry.

I had noted on another thread whether the Giants should consider moving Fluker to LG and Pugh back to RT? I mean, if we have OG talent why not move the one guy who can shore up RT to RT? Or is it that the Giants believe Pugh is a probowl caliber LG and can help Flowers? I don't know...but the move has me thinking.
You lost me at Well...  
nicky43 : 5/19/2017 1:03 pm : link
But seriously, if you are suggesting that they are sticking to some planned system to replenish the o-line then considering we've been stuck with a horrible o-line for 4 years straight I would have to say the system sucks!

If is is possible to create such a system it should be one that gives us at least an average to above average o-line year after year. Offense starts in the trenches.
Draft position  
GiantsRage2007 : 5/19/2017 1:06 pm : link
does not trump performance
I just can't understand signing Fluker to a 1-year deal.  
Ivan15 : 5/19/2017 1:09 pm : link
If he wins the RG spot, he benches Jerry. If he wins the RT spot he benches Hart, also setting Hart's development back or writing Hart's career off. If he plays well, then the Giants have to decide who to try to sign for next year among Pugh, Richburg and Fluker or Fluker may leave regardless. If Fluker doesn't play well, the Giants still have to decide whether to re-sign him or replace him, putting the o-line in the same questionable position as this year.

The better approach would have been to sign Fluker to an easily voidable 2-year deal, even if it meant giving a bigger bonus at the front end.
Ivan15  
Klaatu : 5/19/2017 1:17 pm : link
Maybe Fluker only wanted a one-year deal, to see if he could jump-start his career?
Fluker would have cost much more to a multi year deal  
George from PA : 5/19/2017 1:27 pm : link
......not liking 3 possible FA on starting OLmen....it is what it is...
RE: Ivan15  
SGMen : 5/19/2017 1:36 pm : link
In comment 13476471 Klaatu said:
Quote:
Maybe Fluker only wanted a one-year deal, to see if he could jump-start his career?
He clearly hasn't lived up to expectations, but Fluker has some physical talent so maybe Solari can rejuvinate his career? Not too positive about that but maybe...
RE: I just can't understand signing Fluker to a 1-year deal.  
Jay on the Island : 5/19/2017 1:45 pm : link
In comment 13476464 Ivan15 said:
Quote:
If he wins the RG spot, he benches Jerry. If he wins the RT spot he benches Hart, also setting Hart's development back or writing Hart's career off. If he plays well, then the Giants have to decide who to try to sign for next year among Pugh, Richburg and Fluker or Fluker may leave regardless. If Fluker doesn't play well, the Giants still have to decide whether to re-sign him or replace him, putting the o-line in the same questionable position as this year.

The better approach would have been to sign Fluker to an easily voidable 2-year deal, even if it meant giving a bigger bonus at the front end.

You didn't take into consideration that Fluker did not want to sign that kind of deal. He is hoping to play well for the Giants this year to build up his value to sign a big deal next year.
RE: RE: I just can't understand signing Fluker to a 1-year deal.  
SGMen : 5/19/2017 2:13 pm : link
In comment 13476498 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
In comment 13476464 Ivan15 said:


Quote:


If he wins the RG spot, he benches Jerry. If he wins the RT spot he benches Hart, also setting Hart's development back or writing Hart's career off. If he plays well, then the Giants have to decide who to try to sign for next year among Pugh, Richburg and Fluker or Fluker may leave regardless. If Fluker doesn't play well, the Giants still have to decide whether to re-sign him or replace him, putting the o-line in the same questionable position as this year.

The better approach would have been to sign Fluker to an easily voidable 2-year deal, even if it meant giving a bigger bonus at the front end.


You didn't take into consideration that Fluker did not want to sign that kind of deal. He is hoping to play well for the Giants this year to build up his value to sign a big deal next year.
My gut tells me he came here cause he knows this OL is not all that so he figures he has a good shot to win a starting job. Well, if he does play really well we benefit regardless of one year or two. We can't keep everyone and next year we have two contracts.
Remember that Hart is  
Beezer : 5/19/2017 2:16 pm : link
STILL very young.

My only suggestion here is that there's great potential, and the key guys are still young. This, we can hope, is a turn-the-corner season for the group up front.
RE: Remember that Hart is  
SGMen : 5/19/2017 2:31 pm : link
In comment 13476528 Beezer said:
Quote:
STILL very young.

My only suggestion here is that there's great potential, and the key guys are still young. This, we can hope, is a turn-the-corner season for the group up front.
Hart, Flowers, Fluker, Richburg, Wheeler, Bisnotway - all young with upside. Just how much upside remains to be seen.
And Pugh  
Beezer : 5/19/2017 2:46 pm : link
25 this season. Third year. Huge.
The 2011 OL is not something to be aspiring to, if that's part  
Devon : 5/19/2017 3:00 pm : link
of your point.
It won a Super Bowl ...  
Beezer : 5/19/2017 3:01 pm : link
... part of the big picture.

That even a sub-FANTASTIC line can get the job done, if other pieces are solid.
RE: And Pugh  
SGMen : 5/19/2017 3:06 pm : link
In comment 13476558 Beezer said:
Quote:
25 this season. Third year. Huge.
Pugh is 27 and in the final year of his 5 year rookie first round pick contract. If he has a probowl type year, he will likely command good money due to his versatility.

I am still thinking why not put Fluker at LG and move Petitgout back to RT? Make OT much better and hope Fluker and his big body can do good on the inside?
We're both wrong. He's 26.  
Beezer : 5/19/2017 3:10 pm : link

27 in August.
I forgot to change his age when I went to the 2017  
Beezer : 5/19/2017 3:10 pm : link
info.
RE: It won a Super Bowl ...  
Devon : 5/19/2017 3:12 pm : link
In comment 13476578 Beezer said:
Quote:
... part of the big picture.

That even a sub-FANTASTIC line can get the job done, if other pieces are solid.


It wasn't sub-fantastic, it sucked. Worse, in many ways, than the OL was last year.

It just took a level of play from the QB that he wasn't unable to sustain long term and no longer likely has in him now for it not to derail the entire offense then the same way (or worse, because of the system difference).
RE: RE: And Pugh  
Beezer : 5/19/2017 3:16 pm : link
In comment 13476587 SGMen said:
Quote:
In comment 13476558 Beezer said:


Quote:


25 this season. Third year. Huge.

Pugh is 27 and in the final year of his 5 year rookie first round pick contract. If he has a probowl type year, he will likely command good money due to his versatility.

I am still thinking why not put Fluker at LG and move Petitgout back to RT? Make OT much better and hope Fluker and his big body can do good on the inside?


Geez. You think that harshly of Pugh? lol

Man, if the  
Pete in MD : 5/19/2017 3:25 pm : link
coaches can get Flowers and Fluker to maximize their physical gifts, this o-line will be nasty.
I think Ereck Flowers...  
M.S. : 5/19/2017 3:49 pm : link

...sucks.

And this offensive line ain't shit until they do something about him. Like right tackle or left bench.
RE: Man, if the  
SGMen : 5/19/2017 4:18 pm : link
In comment 13476620 Pete in MD said:
Quote:
coaches can get Flowers and Fluker to maximize their physical gifts, this o-line will be nasty.
You hope they work hard, get well coached up, and finally develop. That would be a big plus for this team.
Well if Fluker plays at a pro bowl level  
rasbutant : 5/19/2017 4:34 pm : link
and signs somewhere else you can always look forward to the comp pick to make you happy.
RE: I just can't understand signing Fluker to a 1-year deal.  
OC2.0 : 5/19/2017 5:49 pm : link
In comment 13476464 Ivan15 said:
Quote:
If he wins the RG spot, he benches Jerry. If he wins the RT spot he benches Hart, also setting Hart's development back or writing Hart's career off. If he plays well, then the Giants have to decide who to try to sign for next year among Pugh, Richburg and Fluker or Fluker may leave regardless. If Fluker doesn't play well, the Giants still have to decide whether to re-sign him or replace him, putting the o-line in the same questionable position as this year.

The better approach would have been to sign Fluker to an easily voidable 2-year deal, even if it meant giving a bigger bonus at the front end.


We're shooting for a long run this & hoping the guy can step in off the bat.
Sorry guys but if Fluker refused a 2-year deal, the Giants should have  
Ivan15 : 5/19/2017 5:57 pm : link
passed.

Nothing gained by having Fluker on a 1-year deal. No matter what happens, he will be gone in 2018 and the Giants will be trying to figure out who will start in 2018.
RE: Sorry guys but if Fluker refused a 2-year deal, the Giants should have  
SGMen : 5/19/2017 6:08 pm : link
In comment 13476757 Ivan15 said:
Quote:
passed.

Nothing gained by having Fluker on a 1-year deal. No matter what happens, he will be gone in 2018 and the Giants will be trying to figure out who will start in 2018.
Disagree. Veterans are signed to one year deals all the time. Fluker was one of the better options out there and he is young. He hasn't lived up to first round billing despite his physical presence. He came to a team that he thinks he can win a starting job on and he just might do that. If he has a very good year, the Giants will at least try to keep him next year and if not there will be other veterans or maybe a youngster from this year that can step up. The NFL changes so much from year to year.
Ereck Flowers  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 5/19/2017 6:27 pm : link
IMO Fluker is the key - other than health  
Reale01 : 5/19/2017 6:28 pm : link
Richburg and Pugh will be solid and possibly a good deal better than that.

Fluker was one of the best lineman the year he was drafted. He has size strength and talent to be a stud. It hasnt happened, but he wasnt bad either. May not happen, but there is a reason to be optimistic.

Flowers was not as bad as many say and at 23 he is more likely to get better than worse. Again size strength talent are there.

Very possible that we could have 4 plus o-lineman.

That leaves Jerry you know what you have and Hart who again should improve but does not have upside of Fluker. The new lineman are wild cards.
I expect the line to surprise  
Jay on the Island : 5/19/2017 6:44 pm : link
and play reasonably well. I hope that the Giants sign Richburg to an extension before training camp because I think he is going to break out this season. Signing him now would save the Giants several million. I think that Flowers will play at least league average LT which would be a big upgrade. Pugh will play well as long as he is healthy. Ideally Fluker will win the RG spot and play well and Bisnowaty or Wheeler will surprise and win the RT job.
This is REALLY encouraging.  
Beezer : 5/19/2017 7:44 pm : link
.
BBI thread about Flowers' work ethic this off-season - ( New Window )
Draft status is irrelevant...  
Torrag : 5/19/2017 10:41 pm : link
...find us a 5 man unit that can perform consistently well in all phases. It's been too long since our front office provided us and more importantly Eli with that key component to success.
RE: Draft status is irrelevant...  
SGMen : 5/19/2017 11:29 pm : link
In comment 13476991 Torrag said:
Quote:
...find us a 5 man unit that can perform consistently well in all phases. It's been too long since our front office provided us and more importantly Eli with that key component to success.
True, quality of play matters a heck of a lot more than draft position. On average, most of the league's best LT's are taken in round 1 and we took Flowers because we felt he had "upside" - remember, Flowers was noted as being a RAW talent when he came out. We knew he needed work and the idea is he'd learn behind Beatty or maybe even push RT as a rookie but Beatty's injury pre-camp forced Flowers to mature faster than he was likely ready.

But Flowers held his own, imperfect, but he held his own. It is the fact that he didn't get any better year #2 that I think has most questioning him and you can't blame fans. But at age 23, year #2 with Solari, a strong off-season working out & learning, I think Flowers blossoms into the guy we thought he'd be when we took him.
Tough read.  
TMS : 5/20/2017 2:27 pm : link
What is the point ? You think our OL does not suck and we will be fine. Hope you are right because if ELI goes down we go with him.
I don't THINK the O line will be fine.  
Beezer : 5/20/2017 6:12 pm : link
I think it will be better than most here believe it will, and I think there's potential for it to be very good.
RE: I don't THINK the O line will be fine.  
SGMen : 5/20/2017 7:23 pm : link
In comment 13477231 Beezer said:
Quote:
I think it will be better than most here believe it will, and I think there's potential for it to be very good.
I'm in your camp with respect to the OL being better this year than most think. Continuity is one reason. Development is the other reason (Flowers, Hart). TE blocking with Ellison, Adams is the final reason. I think Adams can learn a lot from Ellison as can Engram & Tye. Players feed off of each other.

I'm praying Pugh, Richburg play near a probowl level giving us a strong inside OL. We just need Flowers and Hart to get to average status and Eli will take care of the rest.
I am not feeling it with this group  
Jimmy Googs : 5/20/2017 8:01 pm : link
they really played poorly last year, as individuals and as a group.

Weak, weak area that is holding the team back...
RE: I am not feeling it with this group  
SGMen : 5/20/2017 9:22 pm : link
In comment 13477283 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
they really played poorly last year, as individuals and as a group.

Weak, weak area that is holding the team back...
Yes, no denying that and I have the bit of truth in the back of my mind as well. But I also tell myself that we lost our FB; our TE's NEVER developed as blockers; both Hart & Flowers were only 22 and had a new OL coach; and, well, we lacked skill position players to maybe mask the deficiencies, particularly RB Jennings who sucked and when Vereen was lost.

I do believe Pugh & Richburg can be "top quarter" in the league at their respective positions. Flowers and Hart have nowhere to go but up given then horrible overall play last year. I am hoping Fluker surprises in camp and maybe wins a starting position outright.

But mostly I love TE Ellison and developing Adams to help with blocking; Perkins to improve the run game; Engram to keep safeties back, etc.

Lastly, I believe in continuity & development.
You need to move to Missouri  
Jimmy Googs : 5/20/2017 9:41 pm : link
and learn their motto...
Umm yeah that offensive line  
The Tempest : 5/21/2017 10:49 am : link
It still is not a very good line but I have reason to be hopeful that it will be better this year even if we might only see one change to the lineup as I expect John Jerry not to be starting. It took only one change on the offensive line that started in 2006 and the one that started in 2007.
RE: Umm yeah that offensive line  
SGMen : 5/21/2017 10:53 am : link
In comment 13477616 The Tempest said:
Quote:
It still is not a very good line but I have reason to be hopeful that it will be better this year even if we might only see one change to the lineup as I expect John Jerry not to be starting. It took only one change on the offensive line that started in 2006 and the one that started in 2007.
I think Fluker has a real shot to beat out Jerry. It is a question of how much Fluker adds to the run blocking game while not giving away much in pass protection. Jerry can pass protect fairly well he just cant run block.
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