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The play action pass has always been Eli's bread & butter

Marty in Albany : 5/21/2017 8:16 am
I don't think the play action pass worked very well last year because Jennings was not a constant threat to break off a big gain and Perkins was not scaring anybody. Thus, the defense could take a little more time to cover before it had to react to a run and leave its pass coverage. By then Eli was in the passing mode and pass coverage could resume.

While some insist that the Giants' passing game supports the running game instead of the other way around, and that we have won the SB with the worst running game in the NFL, it seems to me that unless Perkins or some other RB becomes a legitimate threat as a runner, the play action pass will not be effective and the Giants' passing game will suffer.
Play action doesn't work when nobody  
Jimmy Googs : 5/21/2017 8:26 am : link
cares if you try and run the ball.
This also relates to OL play  
Mike in NY : 5/21/2017 8:37 am : link
Teams know they can get pressure on Eli with 3 and 4 man rushes and do not need to stack the box to prevent running lanes. If teams had to be selling out with 7 man boxes to stop our running game, that would leave single coverage on OBJ, Marshall, etc.
When was the last time  
redwhiteandbigblue : 5/21/2017 8:41 am : link
you saw Eli under center? McAdoo's offense is usually run with the shotgun. Tough to run a play action pass out of the shotgun.That may be a part of the reason Eli has been rumored to not be enamored with Mac's offensive scheme. You are correct that the play action was one if not his best tool but in this offensive scheme (plus lack of blocking) it is near impossible to execute.
RE: When was the last time  
kelsto811 : 5/21/2017 8:49 am : link
In comment 13477543 redwhiteandbigblue said:
Quote:
you saw Eli under center? McAdoo's offense is usually run with the shotgun. Tough to run a play action pass out of the shotgun.That may be a part of the reason Eli has been rumored to not be enamored with Mac's offensive scheme. You are correct that the play action was one if not his best tool but in this offensive scheme (plus lack of blocking) it is near impossible to execute.


This ^^
RE: When was the last time  
mfsd : 5/21/2017 9:07 am : link
In comment 13477543 redwhiteandbigblue said:
Quote:
you saw Eli under center? McAdoo's offense is usually run with the shotgun. Tough to run a play action pass out of the shotgun.That may be a part of the reason Eli has been rumored to not be enamored with Mac's offensive scheme. You are correct that the play action was one if not his best tool but in this offensive scheme (plus lack of blocking) it is near impossible to execute.


Disagree that the problem is being in shotgun...McAdoo runs most of his base running plays out of the shotgun, and we run play pass out of the formation as well. It can work from that formation, if we had the running game to force defenses to creep up just enough to give OBJ, Shepard, and now guys like Marshall and Engram an extra step on their defenders

I agree that the trouble is as mentioned above, defenses don't fear our running game, they're more focused on getting into position to disrupt the passing lanes for our short slants and outs
The effectiveness  
redwhiteandbigblue : 5/21/2017 9:23 am : link
in part of the play action if you watch closely is that the QB actually crouches low to the ground and hide the ball on his hip to hide it from the DB's for an instant thus freezing the DB's. How can you say running a shotgun does not effect running play action? The whole point of play action is to fool the DB's. If you are in the shotgun you either run a delay or you pass
Well I have nothing to support this but...  
kelsto811 : 5/21/2017 9:55 am : link
I honestly believe Eli is a better PA passer from under center where he can have his back to the line and step into the pocket to put a little more zip on it. Could be mental or maybe I'm just mental.
RE: RE: When was the last time  
HomerJones45 : 5/21/2017 10:31 am : link
In comment 13477550 mfsd said:
Quote:
In comment 13477543 redwhiteandbigblue said:


Quote:


you saw Eli under center? McAdoo's offense is usually run with the shotgun. Tough to run a play action pass out of the shotgun.That may be a part of the reason Eli has been rumored to not be enamored with Mac's offensive scheme. You are correct that the play action was one if not his best tool but in this offensive scheme (plus lack of blocking) it is near impossible to execute.



Disagree that the problem is being in shotgun...McAdoo runs most of his base running plays out of the shotgun, and we run play pass out of the formation as well. It can work from that formation, if we had the running game to force defenses to creep up just enough to give OBJ, Shepard, and now guys like Marshall and Engram an extra step on their defenders

I agree that the trouble is as mentioned above, defenses don't fear our running game, they're more focused on getting into position to disrupt the passing lanes for our short slants and outs
Yeah, you can but it is not what a shotgun offense is best suited to do for the simple reason that the qb is always facing the defense and so cannot hide the ball as well.

This is not a play action offense or even a particularly good running offense. The shotgun formation from its origin with Red Hickey in SF was not a good play action offense. GB was never a great team running the ball and how often does Rodgers play action?
RE: When was the last time  
River : 5/21/2017 10:38 am : link
In comment 13477543 redwhiteandbigblue said:
Quote:
you saw Eli under center? McAdoo's offense is usually run with the shotgun. Tough to run a play action pass out of the shotgun.That may be a part of the reason Eli has been rumored to not be enamored with Mac's offensive scheme. You are correct that the play action was one if not his best tool but in this offensive scheme (plus lack of blocking) it is near impossible to execute.

Eli has been rumored to not be enamored with Mac's offensive scheme. Since When???
Eli has nothing but compliments for this offense and has said so many times. It is very QB friendly.
Fans don't like Mac's Offense but loved it the year before when it was running on all cylinders. The play-action pass doesn't work when you can not run at will.
Play action does not work well  
redwhiteandbigblue : 5/21/2017 10:41 am : link
when you snap the ball out of a shotgun formation. Pure and simple.
Conclusion: If we can't run the ball better this year, we will  
Marty in Albany : 5/21/2017 11:03 am : link
continue to rely on the shotgun for most plays. That will hurt our passing game because the play action pass does not work from the shotgun formation.

BTW, the shotgun also hurts our running game. Although former Cowboys QB, Tony Romo, was a master at faking the pass and running the draw, Eli and the Giants were uniformly awful at running a draw play.
play action always works best on 1st down  
gtt350 : 5/21/2017 11:06 am : link
we always ran for no gain on 1st down
I think it is a misnomer to suggest that PA  
Section331 : 5/21/2017 11:51 am : link
is Eli's bread and butter. Over the course of his career, his PA stats have been worse than straight drop back. And that includes seasons in which he had good run support.
This just isn't true.  
Devon : 5/21/2017 11:57 am : link
I've posted the numbers before and don't feel like digging them back up again, but Eli's had some of his best seasons where they've either simply barely featured PA and/or were terrible at it when they did -- and that applies to under Gilbride too.

It might be a useful tool in the arsenal, but there's not much basis for claiming more than that.
.  
arcarsenal : 5/21/2017 12:02 pm : link
Fake news.
Eli's success with playaction  
Natek212 : 5/21/2017 5:46 pm : link
Has always depended on how good our running game is. When we had Tiki, Jacobs, and Bradshaw running, that was his bread and butter. Now, our running game doesn't scare the defense enough for PA to be effective.

Also, playaction IMO is less effective out of shotgun, for reasons referenced above such as not being able to hide the ball.
Uhhh  
Joey in VA : 5/21/2017 7:02 pm : link
Hang on a second, you can absolutely run play action out of the shotgun if you use the stretch. Peyton Manning lived off the play action stretch fake with Faulk and James in Indy, it's a very real thing to run play action out of the shotgun. To say it's not is ignoring a lot of football that proves otherwise.
Depending on down and distance  
B in ALB : 5/21/2017 7:13 pm : link
something like 2nd and 3 or 4, I think running PA out of the shotgun is more effective than running it under center in a set package. It allows you to exploit the middle of the field if the mike bites as he should in that situation.
For fuck's sake, stop drawing conclusions about Mac's offense  
David B. : 5/21/2017 9:23 pm : link
based on last year's offense. It was totally hamstrung by the OL, lack of FB, and TERRIBLE, PLAY-KILLING TEs. That kept them in 11 personnel, and shotgun WAY too much. And "the ball came out quicker" - because it HAD too -- the OL couldn't protect and most pass plays were 3 step drop plays.

It doesn't mean that's what McAdoo's gonna run this year if he has better personnel. If he has a TE who can block, a FB on the roster, and if the OL makes ANY progress, he will be able to do a LOT more. And if they can run effectively, the Play Action will return, and be even more effective because the weapons are better.

RE: Play action does not work well  
Tuckrule : 5/21/2017 10:30 pm : link
In comment 13477609 redwhiteandbigblue said:
Quote:
when you snap the ball out of a shotgun formation. Pure and simple.


I agree with this. Doing it from under center is in fact a longer play action. Doing it from shotgun makes it a very quick 1 step fake from under center you can run stretch pa which is a good 5 step fake.
Eli has no confidence to do play-action from under center  
Jimmy Googs : 5/22/2017 7:40 am : link
because he has to turn his back towards one of his shitty Tackles for too long.

He's worried that he'll be planted in the ground before he can scan 1 second downfield.

And he's right...
let's face it  
YAJ2112 : 5/22/2017 9:55 am : link
Eli misses Toomer. OBJ is great and all but Amani was the greatest play action WR of all time.
let this thread never be lost  
YAJ2112 : 5/22/2017 10:01 am : link
from the archives
Link - ( New Window )
this is the beauty of Kid Shanahans  
idiotsavant : 5/22/2017 10:22 am : link
two and three tight end sets, outside zone runs, that set up roll out play action.

Someone above mentioned 'Eli scared of back side':

1. Outside zone runs that start really quickly, this negates any time the D has to read run/pass
2. Additional help for both tackles with 2 TE inline or 'wing'
3. Even on pass plays, its using the more effective / easier to have an effect, run blocking.
4. Uses a 'misdirection' of sorts, with the roll out the opposite way as the 'run'
5. possibly suits perkins well, as opposed to former RB crew

see cut and paste on schematic themed thread below for details
PAP  
LG in NYC : 5/22/2017 11:53 am : link
overall the biggest issue with this is our lack of a credible running game, but even so.. Eli is terrible at faking the PAP.
As far as I recall he always has been. He gives up way to quickly on it and never really "sells" it.
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