2004 NFL Draft - Do Over edition

Big Ben wouldn't have lasted 3 seasons in NYC...

Ben and keep the picks.

For all of Eli's faults, he's given us two absolutely thrilling Super Bowl championships. Wouldn't have traded those for anything.

And Rapistburger wouldn't have lasted well here, talent aside

.

his games played streak makes the difference. Ben has missed far too many games with injuries.

Ben and Rivers are objectively better players than Manning, but Ben's played for a better run team than the Giants that had to win one of their SBs in spite of him (and the team has been so good down there, the back-ups that have played when he's been out have been able to win at a solid-enough clip) and Rivers, before the bottom fell out out there, played on a couple better teams than anything the Giants built and then for comparable teams and couldn't break through for a title.

Maybe if the Giants' run overall had been different these past 13 years and the two title runs were less... improbable and more a product of actually being great, I'd choose a do over, but it wasn't and they weren't; it's a total butterfly effect situation and the chance for more consistency isn't worth the significant risk of losing two title runs that were better/more enjoyable than a fan could ever imagine.

Or trade back - keep in mind that this was before the rookie cap era. Keeping the picks, namely the 2005 first, may have meant passing on at least one of pierce, plax, or McKenzie.

with a consistent Top 5 defense every year. That's the only reason Ben has 2 rings. Rivers could've done the same in Pittsburgh.

Also, the NFC East was consistently a tough division, Teams 1-4, for nearly a decade. The AFC West and the AFC North were always a 2-team race, with at least 4 guaranteed division wins per year.

Rivers is tough to watch with that ephus pith he throws. I'm glad I didn't have to sit through 15 years of looking at that every Sunday. My shoulder hurts just thinking about it. I'm not trusting big Ben to beat Brady twice, he was awful in the first SB he won.

In comment 13477983 SHO'NUFF said:

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with a consistent Top 5 defense every year. That's the only reason Ben has 2 rings. Rivers could've done the same in Pittsburgh. Also, the NFC East was consistently a tough division, Teams 1-4, for nearly a decade. The AFC West and the AFC North were always a 2-team race, with at least 4 guaranteed division wins per year.

Another person who overrates the NFC East.

This isn't the mid 80's to early 90's.

Do you realize the Bengals have more playoff appearances than the Giants do in the Eli/Big Ben era (since 2004)? 7 to 6. The Ravens have also 7 in this era, and the Steelers have 9. Three SB wins and 4 SB appearances by the division as well as 4 lost conference championships. 8 conference championship appearances in the Eli/Ben era.

NFC East has 3 SB appearances, 2 wins, and 1 additional conference championship loss. 4 conference championship appearances. Even with Cleveland, I'd bet the W/L is probably better in the AFCN.

the AFC North, top to bottom, has been far better than the NFC East in this era.

I don't think Rapey Raperstein would've managed to drag as many unwilling women into bathrooms in a city like NY with this many bystanders.

I'm sticking with Eli.

3 franchise QB's and we end up with a 'can't miss' LT that ends up busting. That would be a sore talking point around here for a very long time.

In comment 13477910 Marty866b said:

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and keep those extra picks we gave up. Not complaining how it worked out as Ben is a sure fire Hall of Famer and Eli most likely one also. This is a tough call as Eli is so much better a person.

You sure Ben wouldn't have Kerry Collins' himself out of NY? Getting. Away w rape is a bit easier in Ga and in Pitt. No question about the talent. Yes he's a HOF player but so is Eli. I wanted Ben myself but I have a lot of questions about Ben and how he would. Have handled the NY spotlight

You trade down; take Big Ben; and stockpile a huge assortment of talent. You make a SB run in 2005 to 2008. LOL

we would all have been thrilled with 2 Super Bowls during the Coughlin/Eli era if being offered that in 2004. Also, despite losing the first round pick in 2005, that draft was an excellent haul.

And still draft Rivers and trade for Eli. Especially knowing that Ben is a decent option

But Eli is still my 1st choice

has to factor in life outside of football and I'm guessing Bens career arc in NY is perceived and handled a lot differently than in Pittsburgh.

I do the exact same draft.

just like you can't assume Eli wins in Pittsburgh. The QB selected leads to a whole domino of moves which aren't contemplated in this question.

Ben and Rivers would have never lasted in NY under the severe scrutiny of the media capital of the world. Imho

But NY choose wisely. Ben is a great QB...but a horrid human being. Disliked in the town and locker room.

He would have imploded in NY.

In comment 13477948 djm said:

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In comment 13477923 Klaatu said: Quote: Just going for the Looney Tunes joke, not realizing how it would look considering Taylor's untimely demise. I apologize for that. You should apologize for costing the giants two super titles.

Damn you!

You've revealed my devilishly clever plan to go back in time and rob the Giants of their two most recent Super Bowl titles!

Oh well...back to the Criminal Mastermind drawing board.

I wanted us to trade back a couple of picks with Cleveland and pick Ben then.

I'd do it again. Keep the picks we gave away and get another decent pick from Cleveland.

Third round pick for Drew Brees.

Ben had success early bc he was drafted to a team with an elite defense.

The only years I'd feel good with Ben on the Giants are probably 08 and 10. Maybe 11 and 16.

Then you have to factor games missed due to injuries -- all of those seasons go down the shitter considering the backup QBs the Giants have had over the same stretch.

If we're re-doing 04 and 05, Vince Wilfork and Aaron Rodgers would be more interesting than Ben.

The Steelers defense coming with him? I'll take Eli. Maturity is just one thing about a successful QB. Ben wouldn't have lasted in NY this whole time.

with Eli. Why would I do anything differently?

Have been in many situations without Ben. They had have trouble beating the Ravens without him but they have a 8-2 record against non-Raven teams without Ben. They did lose two in 2016, but look at it: one game was vs. New England, and the other was a finale vs CLE and PIT had nothing to play for. Jones had three TD's.

They have a fantastic team built there, and while he's a good QB, let's not forget the record without him.

and somewhat disappointed. How could you even think twice not to pick Eli with 2 SB's he brought home and consecutive games streak.

I could just end my argument there, but also Eli's commitment to the community around here and the example he sets for the kids/fans. Eli fits the mold of the Giants FO to a T. He doesn't have off the field issues either.

The consecutive games is also underrated here. Ben is oft injured and Steelers have had to resort to mediocre talent at QB at times when they had teams that could made a run at the SB. We've been able to carry an extra player all those years as well with only 2 QB's on the roster.

knowing that we won 2 with Eli, and how he's been a great, high character guy his entire career. Can't be sure we'd have won with Ben, though it seems possible/likely - and it's tempting to think we could have had high level QB play (as good or arguably better than Eli, at least regular season) AND the picks we gave up, though no guarantee of what we would turn those in to. Though we did very well in 2004/2005 (Eli/Snee/G Wilson '04, Webster/Tuck/Jacobs from just a few picks in '05), and those drafts plus '07 really set up our SB teams.

The '04 QB class is among the best all time - very few years do you have 3 Franchise, Pro Bowl level QBs come out, and all 3 have put up high level of play for years (only Rivers failed to have postseason success, which is likely at least partly due to the Chargers & their ownership, proving Eli right for avoiding SD...).

Especially early on, there is little change Ben would have handled the big apple media. He had issues in Pittsburgh, thankfully he got through them.

Plus many people forget how the Steelers have several # 01 and top 5 defenses around him.

Eli has had what, three top ten defenses in his career?
Big difference IMHO.

We have seen many a player wilt with the NYC media, in other sports too, Randy Johnson with the Yankees to name one.

Look at it this way, if Eli was on the Steelers with those defenses he might have four or five rings by now. Not to forget Seattle was hosed in that SB, and an underdog Arizona did the best they could to lose that SB, and they did. Ben's moment to shine in a SB of worth was against the Packers and he failed.

Roethlisberger would be in a cell on Riker's Island right now if the Giants had drafted him.

Two SBs and a class act.

I really did like Sean Taylor and think he would have had a HOF or near HOf career. I thought he was that good and his potential was very high.

I also think if I am the Chargers, I would have kept Brees, and drafted Larry F. Then you would have had Brees, Fitz, Tomlinson, and Gates! 4 HOFers on that offense. As a football fan, that would have been fun to see!

with no trade ... just like I said on that day in 2004

In comment 13477989 pjcas18 said:

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In comment 13477983 SHO'NUFF said: Quote: with a consistent Top 5 defense every year. That's the only reason Ben has 2 rings. Rivers could've done the same in Pittsburgh. Also, the NFC East was consistently a tough division, Teams 1-4, for nearly a decade. The AFC West and the AFC North were always a 2-team race, with at least 4 guaranteed division wins per year. Another person who overrates the NFC East. This isn't the mid 80's to early 90's. Do you realize the Bengals have more playoff appearances than the Giants do in the Eli/Big Ben era (since 2004)? 7 to 6. The Ravens have also 7 in this era, and the Steelers have 9. Three SB wins and 4 SB appearances by the division as well as 4 lost conference championships. 8 conference championship appearances in the Eli/Ben era. NFC East has 3 SB appearances, 2 wins, and 1 additional conference championship loss. 4 conference championship appearances. Even with Cleveland, I'd bet the W/L is probably better in the AFCN. the AFC North, top to bottom, has been far better than the NFC East in this era.

The Steelers feasted off the likes of Cincinnati and Cleveland during their SB runs up until 2010. During that as span, the Bengals had 2 playoffs appearances sandwiched between a couple of 4-win seasons.

Yes, the Bengals have been a perennial playoff team since 2010 and we have been complete shit since our last SB. It's no wonder they surpassed us.

Without even considering the possibility that Roethlisberger is a rapist, consider that Eli has started 16 more games than Roethlisberger has despite Roethlisberger starting 6 more games as a rookie.

I think people put too much value into individual picks. Even if we had traded our 2006, 2007, & 2008 three first rounders along with what we gave up for Eli, those three picks turned into Kiwanuka, Ross, and Phillips. It's not like any of those three guys were cornerstone players. Looking back I would have traded those three guys too in order to have Eli over Roethlisberger.

Since 2004 the Steelers have been generally better run...they've been better coached and have drafted better than the Giants have. I think Eli has had less to work with.

Rivers, and could have traded him for Eli.

Either Rivers or Eli probably would have excelled with the Steelers.

Defense since 2004:

2004 1st in points, 1st in yards
2005 3rd in points, 4th in yards
2006 11th in points, 9th in yards
2007 2nd in points, 1st in yards
2008 1st in points, 1st in yards
2009 12th in points, 5th in yards
2010 1st in points, 2nd in yards
2011 1st in points, 1st in yards
2012 6th in points, 1st in yards
2013 14th in points, 13th in yards
2014 18th in points, 18th in yards
2015 11th in points, 21st in yards
2016 10th in points, 12 in yards

On top of having Bell and Brown which coincides with the offense becoming a more consist, high performer. Before those guys it was mediocre, highest points per game was 9th. The team was always carried by its defense. Funnily enough, it's all we hear about Eli and it can't be any more inaccurate.

Giants defense since 2005 (Eli's real starting year)

2005 14th in points, 24th in yards
2006 24th in points, 25th in yards
2007 17th in points, 7th in yards
2008 5th in points, 5th in yards
2009 30th in points, 13th in yards
2010 17th in points, 7th in yards
2011 25th in points, 27th in yards
2012 12th in points, 31st in yards
2013 18th in points, 8th in yards
2014 22nd in points, 29th in yards
2015 30th in points, 32nd in yards
2016 2nd in points, 10th in yards

set the Raiders back a decade

for a young QB. Top defense, run-run-short pass offense, low/mid-level division schedule. Rivers had a stacked team, a simple one-read check down offense and easy division schedule.

Given each guy's temperament, combined with the NY media and Gilbride's offense (not Hufnagle's)...I would bet money on at least one, if not both, flaming out in Eli's situation.

I wheel and deal and see if I can move up one spot to take Fitz and pry Drew Brees from San Diego for a 2nd.

Brees to Fitz for 10+ years

Completely realistic :)

In comment 13478365 spike said:

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set the Raiders back a decade

That pick was terrible, but I think the Russell pick was much worse and was more of the reason they were set back for 10 years. I believe that was before the rookie wage cap scale and Russell got paid big bucks to stink. They couldn't give up on him with so much invested.

In comment 13478067 Klaatu said:

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In comment 13477948 djm said: Quote: In comment 13477923 Klaatu said: Quote: Just going for the Looney Tunes joke, not realizing how it would look considering Taylor's untimely demise. I apologize for that. You should apologize for costing the giants two super titles. Damn you! You've revealed my devilishly clever plan to go back in time and rob the Giants of their two most recent Super Bowl titles! Oh well...back to the Criminal Mastermind drawing board.

haha I get the point here with the thread and I like I said I love big ben's game and I do think he'd flourish anywhere but I just think your nuts to toss back two super bowl titles. I could see the Giants winning more games with Ben but failing to win even one super bowl. You just don't know. Giants could have gone 14-2 in 2007 with Ben and lose at home to Dallas or GB. Who the heck knows.

I didn't say Ben. I said Sean Taylor and Matt Schaub, but that's only because I misread the OP...I didn't see the "knowing what you know now" part, so I just said whom I wanted the Giants to draft in 2004.

With that in mind, now, I'd have to pick Ben instead of Eli. Yeah, we may not win any Super Bowls, but just think about Ben and Shockey out on the town in NYC. They'd own Page Six.

-- Sean Taylor.

I was head over heals for Eli in 04. I didn't even have to watch him play or see his abilities. Once I saw the rumors that Eli wanted to play for nyg and didn't want to go to San Diego I was in love. I would have been disappointed with any other player.

I think Ben's the better QB - but I'm not certain Ben can win Super Bowls in the same manner Eli did. I suspect the team has more regular season success with Ben, but it's all about the rings.

Can one be so sure Ben would have more regular season success since the wins aren't super staggering despite playing with multiple HOF'ers on the offense and a top tier defense for a decade?

In comment 13479079 Toth029 said:

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Can one be so sure Ben would have more regular season success since the wins aren't super staggering despite playing with multiple HOF'ers on the offense and a top tier defense for a decade?

Plus Ben misses games where as Eli doesn't. You're right, we can't be sure. PLus we don't watch Ben every week. HE has his flaws too.

In comment 13477910 Marty866b said:

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and keep those extra picks we gave up. Not complaining how it worked out as Ben is a sure fire Hall of Famer and Eli most likely one also. This is a tough call as Eli is so much better a person.

How in the world is Ben a sure fire HOFer and Eli is only a "most likely"?

All Time Total Yards
Eli - 8th (should finish the year 6th)
Ben - 10th (IF he avoids injury could finish the year 8th)
Rivers - 12th (should finish the year 10th)

All Time Completions
Eli - 7th (should finish the year 6th)
Ben - 11th (IF he avoids injury could finish the year 8th)
Rivers - 10th (Should finish the year 7th)

All Time TDs
Eli - 7th (Should finish the year 6th)
Ben - 9th (should still be 9th even if healthy)
Rivers - 8th (Should finish the year 7th)

Super Bowl wins and MVPs
Eli - 2 SBs and 2 SB MVPs
Ben - 2 SBs and 0 SB MVPs
Rivers - 0 SBs and 0 SB MVPs

Eli is literally better in every category, but you think Ben is a sure fire HOFer while Eli is not?