Engram Starts Over Shepard. Ellison In Backfield

Wish I had your faith in both Flowers and Hart.
But I do think the Giants go deep into the playoffs.
It would be so much easier if the whole OL stepped up a tad in both run blocking and giving Eli a little more time to throw for longer timed pass patterns. Flowers also protecting Eli's back better is key!

OB-Flower-Pugh-Richburg—Fluk-Hart-Engram-Sheppard-Marshall

Manning----Ellison

However, the thought of having 2 FBs presnap and moving one to make a strong side formation is pretty interesting.

if your weakest links are your tackles, and if they are helped best by having someone in line on the outside shoulder, why field a formation with non of that?

More likely Falcons '13' formation which I believe has 3 inline TE/s and features zone runs, for obvious reasons, and play action. Which, quick hitting zone runs, especially outside zone runs, really make your O tackles jobs easier rather than harder, as compared to what they had to do last year with regards to Flowers and well balanced speed rushers.

Or, a '12' (two inline tight ends) with EE in the slot and Marshal same side ...to run lots of zone as well and also play action, another strong run centric set up that also offers one a huge pile of passes as change ups to choose from.

He was on the field for 95% of the offensive snaps last year, so that number has no place to go but down. His targets (105) might drop a bit too. But I don't expect his production to fall much at all. With other weapons spreading the coverage, he should have more room to operate, which ought to translate into a higher catch percentage and more YAC.

there are so many variations you could do to pass:









..........While the inside zone seeks to push a defense vertically, the outside zone seeks to move a defense laterally and pin them to the inside. To accomplish this, the linemen will use a blocking technique known as the "rip and run" to either pin defenders inside (rip) or, if they have not reached their defender by the third step, seek to run the defender to the sideline (run). At the snap, the telltale sign of an outside zone run is the kick step to the sideline the offensive line takes.

It's here where Gibbs makes perhaps his most important coaching points: by the running back's third step, he should be making his determination on where to cut up field based on where the offensive line is holding its blocks.

Gibbs notes that:






On the third step, the running back is either going downhill or taking the ball outside. The reason the decision is made on the third step is the timing of the blocks within the offensive line. On the third step, the offensive linemen make their push on the defenders. The push of the offensive line and the cut of the back must coincide. The back does not know where the cut will be until he gets his third step on the ground. He makes his decision on that step and commits to it. Whatever decision he makes, he lives with it. He does not dodge defenders or double cut with the ball. He takes what the picture says and gets the ball upfield and outside right away......................................yadayadayada''

same source

Before you waste time

for all the text below the image!

and the attribution got erased.

all the text is from 49erswebzone .com, which has a great piece on Shannys use of multiple tight ends to set up zone runs and therefor 2nd best in league long pass play actions last year.

perkins seems a bit like Devonta freeman who ran this to great effect last year as a falcon

this time, describing the play action boot from the Two TE set:

"OUTSIDE ZONE PLAY-ACTION BOOT

All play-action bootlegs are built around the same principals and are designed to achieve the same goals. Play-action bootleg plays utilize misdirection to confuse defenders, particularly the front seven. They look like running plays, slowing the pass rush and drawing the linebackers close to the line of scrimmage to open passing lanes. The run-action also slows the pass rush, and the movement of the quarterback forces defensive linemen to change their pass-rush angle. Finally, play-action bootlegs usually flood one side of the field with receivers while putting the quarterback in position to execute short, easy throws.

All successful play-action passes are built from running plays and Shanahan will use the outside zone to build his play-action passing game. Later against the Raiders, the Falcons come out in 12 personnel (one running back, two tight ends, 2 receivers) with the tight ends again in a wing alignment. The offensive line still technically blocks like they would on the zone run, being careful not to get too far ahead of the line of scrimmage for risk of drawing an illegal man downfield penalty."

My view was the Giants need to improve the run blocking and also protect Eli's back [Flowers]; along with giving Eli a tad more time to throw and allow longer pass patterns to develop.

All that is helped with Ellison as the HB.

With Ellison in the backfield he at times can go in motion, but most times he is not.

a] In the backfield if pass protection breaks down from either side, Ellison steps up to save the day. As an inline blocker on a tackle's shoulder he can only assist on one side. IMO As long as the Giants have trouble from both sides of the line [tackles] Ellison is better used in the backfield where he can help both sides due to a tackle brain fart

b] He can lead block for Perkins.

c] Allows Perkins to release into pass patterns immediately or after a delay as another weapon for Eli to throw to because he [Ellison, bigger than Perkins] is protecting Eli if there is a need.

Besides averaging 4.1 yards per rush behind that OL, Perkins last year averaged 10.8 per reception beating Vereen's average of 8.5, so he is a weapon!!!
Perkins average also beat out the TEs, where Tye had a 8.2 average per.

but do prefer the Shannahan way as it really steals the initiative from the D:

Rather than asking Ellison to read which side the blitz is from, or which tackle got beat, rather than asking your RB to delay and scoot...you run your outside zone runs zip quick like, walk up, snap the ball.....boom, instant hand off:

This -steals the time- the D needs to read run/pass and takes the initiative and puts it squarely into the hands of our sides play caller.

Then, in addition, the best part- the 'misdirection effect' very quick to start run plays 'left zone', force the D to instantly run towards that side, and give the QB space and freedom to the other side on play actions.

Then, finally, Shanny had league leading numbers last year.

In comment 13478125 Big Blue Blogger said:

Quote:

He was on the field for 95% of the offensive snaps last year, so that number has no place to go but down. His targets (105) might drop a bit too. But I don't expect his production to fall much at all. With other weapons spreading the coverage, he should have more room to operate, which ought to translate into a higher catch percentage and more YAC.

My sentiment exactly. First, Sterling has a season and another off-season under his belt. He talked about little things like which hand he holds the ball in after a reception and such. He is working on improving his game. The more weapons you have on a field at the same time, the more you spread the ball around and create mis-matches.

I see the Giants using a lot of two TE sets this year with both Ellison & Engram on the field. That would translate to less 3 WR sets, of course, but that doesn't mean Sterling won't get his fair share of opportunities. It will depend upon matchups and such.

For example, a team's nickel corner may be out due to injury. You'd certainly want to attack there. Or a team's best nickel cover LB or nickel safety is out you'd attack with Engram more I'd think.

It is all about matchups and with our diverse weapons we should have more production. On paper, this is McAdoo's best offense and if we aren't top 10 this year in yards AND scoring it will only be because of injuries and/or our OL just still sucks beyond measure. I think our oL steps up. Injuries no one can truly predict.

may SEEM more complex to O linesmen, its really much more helpful to them, in that sense, much easier, in terms of setting them up for success. Because it gives them the initiative -

whereas, asking our OL to sit on heels and read/react (a nasty word in these parts) to onrushing defensive players, lead us into a fairly anemic O last year, or at least, a very fickle one.

came out in 11 personnel base formation 92% of the plays last year (I read this on another fan site recently). That's way to high and the offense became very predictable in 2016.

Obviously Mac will still use a heavy dose of 11 base personnel (1RB, 1TE and 3WR), but this team needs diversity in the way it attacks defenses, more 12 and 13 personnel base formations will go a long way to accomplishing that and Engram will be a key component to it.

So you think it would work for the Giants OL?
Make Flowers and Hart better?

also do for Jerry and Fluker?

show them a window to go through, how to go through it, and trust them.

in addition, you may find that we have roster players that suit the Shanny way better as tackles, allowing young Flowers and Hart to play guard, I really won't try to pretend to know the answer, but outside zone runs with a TE on each side may suit:

EE/Pugh/Flowers/Rich\Hart\Biz\EL

or some variation therefor (also makes your interior bigger) wheras your TE/OT quad may move more, less pulling guards, more OT in space stuff.

EE is on the move, either direction, Pugh has to run out and hit a LB, Flowers gets to Tee Off on a DE but from the side, from the left guard spot, Rich hits the DT on an angle, Hart hits the Nose or other DT from right guard, or helps Rich, and ELs hits the DE from that side.

I could have that wrong, but, the idea is that on some plays the TEs simply make the OT job easier, and on others you ask your OTs to move in space. This allows your guards and center to stay in the interior and hit people from the sides.

Ouch in this case.

SGMen.
Shepard, Vereen, JAdams and Gallman have to be in the mix significantly enough to NOT have a 90% same 11 lineup like last year.
Stay ahead of opponents just like BB does. Our East opponents added DE to get to Eli and our pass potential; the above 4 could make enough variations on a theme that Eli can more easily audible into that by mid 2nd qtr, DCs will be just guessing the and hoping for the best.

In comment 13478030 TyFromQueens said:

Quote:

Negates the mismatches he will constantly create at TE. Will he line up in the slot from time to time? I'm sure. But I seriously doubt he starts over Sheppard. What's important about all of this is the different personnel packages we can roll out now.

it negates nothing. engram is a mismatch where ever/whenever he lines up. pushing 240 pounds with more speed than AJ Green, who's matching up with that?

to this thread isn't a big deal. People also forget you have different personnel packages so you can have it where both are on the field at the same time, or one or the other. That's why you have personnel packages. You mix and match depends on what that personnel package is trying to accomplish.

making the team either. He would give them a pure FB, which was needed at times last year and was sorely missed in the run game. I'm not so sure Ellison could provide what Smith can. It would be nice to have a pure FB that can blast a hole in the defense, especially the way this Oline blocked for the running game last year. Pre-season will be very important in determining just who will get that role.

40 time: Engram
3 cone: Engram
20 yard shuttle: Engram
broad jump: Engram

that ... plus 6'3 235 or 5'10 195? the potential for 2 TE looks that can motion into a 3WR formation vs lining up 3WR like 99% of last year.

as soon as engram adapts to the NFL, there is very little reason to play Shepard outside of 4WR / breathers for Odell/Marshall scenarios.

this is a lovely problem to have. maybe engram lines up outside to keep Marshall fresh, with Shepard in the slot ... but I expect his snaps to nosedive this year.

who starts. They will all play a lot depending on team and formations.

I'm sure Smith can run block, but what is the word on his pass blocking?

plenty of empty backfield sets ... something like

Marshall Shepard Ellison-[OL] Engram Beckham ... Eli in shotgun

Ellison gives Eli time to find Shepard underneath if somehow Marshall/Odell/Engram are all covered - an unlikely scenario

Would be nice.

Not 11 personel 95% of the time

We might have the chance at being unpredictable now.

Yay!

out of the WR thing.

He might split wide now and then, but he is a TE, he isn't going to replace Shepard in the slot.

Once you bastards get something into your heads you run it into the ground.

In comment 13478032 robbieballs2003 said:

Quote:

.

This.....

don't understand that just because Engram starts in a practice in May, it is in no way at all an indication as to what the coaches are thinking regarding the starting lineup in September.

These practices are to see what people can do... period. If Webb was in there, would the thread be about how Eli lost his starting job?

True
but the thread title meant Shepard's amount of plays would be reduced way way down.

Engram is a better version of Shepard.

Engram can do everything Shep can do; he is taller, stronger, and if that wasn't enough ...........f a s t e r

Not a knock on Shepard, just a fact.

In comment 13478323 JimNY56 said:

Quote:

I'm sure Smith can run block, but what is the word on his pass blocking?

Primary reason for the FB in this offense is to run block. If he can't do it, then they need to find someone that can. I'm not sold on an HB, but maybe Ellison could change my mind?! Keep in mind also that Mac made a comment about not knowing what an HB is and so I would think, reading between the lines, that he also is not sold on that idea.

In comment 13478342 JimNY56 said:

Quote:

True but the thread title meant Shepard's amount of plays would be reduced way way down. Engram is a better version of Shepard. Engram can do everything Shep can do; he is taller, stronger, and if that wasn't enough ...........f a s t e r Not a knock on Shepard, just a fact.

Saying Engram is better than Shepard at this point is silly. We would like to believe he is going to be...but at this point that is purely a hope.

You are going to see guys come in and out in different packages. Depth is a good thing and will keep opposing defenses on edge.

Not 100% sure of this but...
the guy who was signed last year to help the ran game by being in the backfield blocking [think he was a free agent who was released by the Steelers] was a TE/HB but was hurt in the preseason and was on the IR all year. Giants I think released him a couple months ago. Giants/McAdoo was going to use him as a HB and TE.

you might be right but I feel as the season progresses Engram will get more and more playing time at the expense of Shep.

In comment 13478261 old man said:

Quote:

SGMen. Shepard, Vereen, JAdams and Gallman have to be in the mix significantly enough to NOT have a 90% same 11 lineup like last year. Stay ahead of opponents just like BB does. Our East opponents added DE to get to Eli and our pass potential; the above 4 could make enough variations on a theme that Eli can more easily audible into that by mid 2nd qtr, DCs will be just guessing the and hoping for the best.

Yes, varying personnel lineups is the key to our success this year and beyond. TE Ellison was a huge pickup for blocking. TE Adams should be improved. TE Engram should be a weapon of merit as the season progresses. Our TE sets this year will really carry us lots.

In comment 13478028 JohnB said:

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and you want him to sit the bench? Really? I will remind you that Shepard had a much better rookie year than Landon Collins did the year before. Think about that. And you think Shepard is the odd man out. You have to love BBI sometimes.

Eh, it's not that far-fetched. Engram really might be a much better TE than Shepard is a WR.

In comment 13478447 santacruzom said:

Quote:

In comment 13478028 JohnB said: Quote: and you want him to sit the bench? Really? I will remind you that Shepard had a much better rookie year than Landon Collins did the year before. Think about that. And you think Shepard is the odd man out. You have to love BBI sometimes. Eh, it's not that far-fetched. Engram really might be a much better TE than Shepard is a WR.

Engram has a skill set we don't have on this team: the ability to go down the deep middle seem and make a big play. The safety must be careful and that helps OBJ too. Marshall too. I mean, the more speed and weapons you have the easier it is to make plays, move the ball and just score.

what if the kid from San Jose State pans out at FB?

Ellison will likely get a lot of those snaps.

He will also be used in two TE formations. I think Giants will also use him as a blocker on passing downs and then slip him out into the flat. I expect him to have about 30 receptions next year.

However, Shepherd is most definitely not sitting to give Ellison snaps.

In comment 13478327 LakeGeorgeGiant said:

Quote:

out of the WR thing. He might split wide now and then, but he is a TE, he isn't going to replace Shepard in the slot. Once you bastards get something into your heads you run it into the ground.

us bastards also know simple math, which suggests if the giants run more 2 TE looks, its likely going to mean less 3WR sets.

the 2 TE look, with 1 of them having Engram's skillset, also allows for a much more versatile passing attack.

there is no way, following Marshall's signing and Engram's selection, that Shepard will see the field as much.

[I like Shepard]

if Flowers does not improve, you can expect to see Ellison lined up next to him fairly often

I do not think they paid Ellison to sit. He can cover up a lot of the OL deficiencies.

The Challenge is all in the hands of the coaches---how do you get all of your weapons on the field? Who gives a crap about STARTING??????...it's a meaningless designation that will be tied to what they are trying to accomplish at the START of a game---and that will probably be changeable.

BB manages to get all of his good players into the game plan, and it doesn't seem to matter what their positions are---that's great coaching...let's hope that MAC is capable of that.

I'd guess between 70-95% of snaps

This whole who is the odd man out debate makes no sense.

I'm not big on fullbacks, or TEs lining up in the backfield. I would rather have an offensive line that can block than rely on a FB to create holes. Dallas doesnt use a FB do they? I see Ellison lining up as a traditional TE with Engram split out or in the slot, basically a 3rd WR, and yes, either Marshall or Shepard will be on the sideline when they do this. Other times, Engram will line up as in line TE, with Ellison on the sideline, and he will either stay in line, or more likely, go in motion and line up as a 4th WR. These are the two formations I hope to see most often this season.

but I feel like people are really overthinking it.

This isn't the first time the Giants have had lots of offensive options. It's worked before. There will be enough plays for everyone to get involved.

with a vastly improved offense, there should be a lot more offensive plays then last year. We had tons of three & outs last year which is why our defense was on the field so much.

However, the thought of having 2 FBs presnap and moving one to make a strong side formation is pretty interesting.