Engram Starts Over Shepard. Ellison In Backfield

#8203;

?

I think it will be such that two out of Ellison, Engram, and Shepard will be on the field more than 90% of the time, but which two it is will fluctuate based on a variety of factors. Impossible to predict the percentage of snaps each will get right now, but all three will see the field plenty.

TE Ellison will likely be on the field quite a bit, not only to help with the run blocking on the edges BUT to help the OT's pass protect.

TE Engram will line up all over: inline TE, maybe backfield, Slot and wherever else the staff thinks he'll create mismatches.

But in general, yes, Engram will likely take some snaps from Sterling Shepard.

?

when Shepard was the only option other than Beckham...

and you want him to sit the bench? Really?

I will remind you that Shepard had a much better rookie year than Landon Collins did the year before. Think about that. And you think Shepard is the odd man out.

You have to love BBI sometimes.

Negates the mismatches he will constantly create at TE.
Will he line up in the slot from time to time? I'm sure.
But I seriously doubt he starts over Sheppard.
What's important about all of this is the different personnel packages we can roll out now.

.

I'm the slot engram at tight end or in the backfield. Motion him out wide. Makes the defense choose nickel or 3 lbs. if they come out in nickel you can run the ball. Good option to have

11 formation packages for the majority of the snaps last year and the percentage will likely decrease as the Giants will run more 12 formation packages using both Ellison (Y) and Engram (U) on the field with 2 wides and 1RB.

Sheppard will likely be the odd man out in 12 base formation as Marshall is the better run blocker of the two. Perhaps a reduction in snaps of 10-15% is probable for Shep as Mac changes the formation looks more frequently this year to be less predictable with the offense.

and move Engram to the outside.

and the will also spell each other. There won't be an "odd
man out" sitting on the bench.

In comment 13478043 UConn4523 said:

Quote:

and the will also spell each other. There won't be an "odd man out" sitting on the bench.

In a 12 base formation package there has to be an "odd man out" at WR and usually it's the teams slot receiver. OBJ and Marshall are the starting outside WRs and will play most of the snaps when the team is in 12 base formation.

Even Perkins will sit sometimes to allow Vereen and Gallman.

I can even see J. Adams in the mix at times.

Now, if you are saying that Shepard will play less snaps....I will agree with that assessment. but he will play closer to his average then zero snaps.

for another Free Safety...

but I'm not really understanding how more flexibility is a bad thing. If Shepard plays a little less to achieve that, so be it.

As it relates to the nominal designation of being a starter, Victor Cruz wasn't a "starter" in 2011 (he only started 7 of 16 games). That worked out just fine.

watched GB or McAdoo the last few years and then write long posts projecting how Ellison will be used, that is pretty much not likely to be the way he'll be used in Mac's offense?

That's a lot of words wasted.

Not that Shepard won't play a lot this year, he will, but I just feel like the giants most versatile and dangerous formation is the two TE set with one rb. Shepard will get his don't worry. Plus there will be injuries.

While not compromising the TE set. You can swap the rb out for Beckham you can even go empty backfield.

We finally have options.

respect your opinion...
in a few sentences [not wasted] how is Ellison and Engram going to be used for the most part, especially when they are both out there at the same time?

will mainly be a #2 TE inline to anchor running plays. Mac likes having versatility in TE's, so you'll see both him and Engram in the backfield at times ad FB/H-Back, and you'll see Ellison inline as a blocker, where Engram will be split out and in the slot sometimes.

It will take some snaps from Shepard, but there will also be a lot of sets with no Ellison and 3-4 WR's and/or Engram.

Based on the way Mac has used TE's and the way they are used in GB, it will be unlikely for Ellison to see 40% of the offensive snaps. That's not a knock, it is what gives the offense the ability to create the most mismatches.

thanks

I don't mean you'll see both him and Engram in the backfield at the same time - you'll see only one of them as a FB/H-Back either pre-snap or after a shift several times during a game, but both will be used in that role.

I've been bitten by The Kool-aid bug.

I think this is a superbowl team...and alst year I was a distinct minority when I said we were going to have a great defense.
Something special is happening and we're privileged to watch it.
The bug's injection was so strong that I think the very young Hart and Flowers rise to adequate and Fulkner plays to his form two years ago.
Now I'll take a deep breath, refuse an antidote and try to get about my day.

with Marshall replacing Cruz and Engram replacing Tye and Perkins as the lone running back. But we'll see more plays with Ellison replacing either Shepard or Engram - especially when we have a good lead in the 4th quarter.

Wish I had your faith in both Flowers and Hart.
But I do think the Giants go deep into the playoffs.
It would be so much easier if the whole OL stepped up a tad in both run blocking and giving Eli a little more time to throw for longer timed pass patterns. Flowers also protecting Eli's back better is key!

OB-Flower-Pugh-Richburg—Fluk-Hart-Engram-Sheppard-Marshall

Manning----Ellison

However, the thought of having 2 FBs presnap and moving one to make a strong side formation is pretty interesting.

if your weakest links are your tackles, and if they are helped best by having someone in line on the outside shoulder, why field a formation with non of that?

More likely Falcons '13' formation which I believe has 3 inline TE/s and features zone runs, for obvious reasons, and play action. Which, quick hitting zone runs, especially outside zone runs, really make your O tackles jobs easier rather than harder, as compared to what they had to do last year with regards to Flowers and well balanced speed rushers.

Or, a '12' (two inline tight ends) with EE in the slot and Marshal same side ...to run lots of zone as well and also play action, another strong run centric set up that also offers one a huge pile of passes as change ups to choose from.

He was on the field for 95% of the offensive snaps last year, so that number has no place to go but down. His targets (105) might drop a bit too. But I don't expect his production to fall much at all. With other weapons spreading the coverage, he should have more room to operate, which ought to translate into a higher catch percentage and more YAC.

there are so many variations you could do to pass:









..........While the inside zone seeks to push a defense vertically, the outside zone seeks to move a defense laterally and pin them to the inside. To accomplish this, the linemen will use a blocking technique known as the "rip and run" to either pin defenders inside (rip) or, if they have not reached their defender by the third step, seek to run the defender to the sideline (run). At the snap, the telltale sign of an outside zone run is the kick step to the sideline the offensive line takes.

It's here where Gibbs makes perhaps his most important coaching points: by the running back's third step, he should be making his determination on where to cut up field based on where the offensive line is holding its blocks.

Gibbs notes that:






On the third step, the running back is either going downhill or taking the ball outside. The reason the decision is made on the third step is the timing of the blocks within the offensive line. On the third step, the offensive linemen make their push on the defenders. The push of the offensive line and the cut of the back must coincide. The back does not know where the cut will be until he gets his third step on the ground. He makes his decision on that step and commits to it. Whatever decision he makes, he lives with it. He does not dodge defenders or double cut with the ball. He takes what the picture says and gets the ball upfield and outside right away......................................yadayadayada''

same source

Before you waste time

for all the text below the image!

and the attribution got erased.

all the text is from 49erswebzone .com, which has a great piece on Shannys use of multiple tight ends to set up zone runs and therefor 2nd best in league long pass play actions last year.

perkins seems a bit like Devonta freeman who ran this to great effect last year as a falcon

this time, describing the play action boot from the Two TE set:

"OUTSIDE ZONE PLAY-ACTION BOOT

All play-action bootlegs are built around the same principals and are designed to achieve the same goals. Play-action bootleg plays utilize misdirection to confuse defenders, particularly the front seven. They look like running plays, slowing the pass rush and drawing the linebackers close to the line of scrimmage to open passing lanes. The run-action also slows the pass rush, and the movement of the quarterback forces defensive linemen to change their pass-rush angle. Finally, play-action bootlegs usually flood one side of the field with receivers while putting the quarterback in position to execute short, easy throws.

All successful play-action passes are built from running plays and Shanahan will use the outside zone to build his play-action passing game. Later against the Raiders, the Falcons come out in 12 personnel (one running back, two tight ends, 2 receivers) with the tight ends again in a wing alignment. The offensive line still technically blocks like they would on the zone run, being careful not to get too far ahead of the line of scrimmage for risk of drawing an illegal man downfield penalty."

My view was the Giants need to improve the run blocking and also protect Eli's back [Flowers]; along with giving Eli a tad more time to throw and allow longer pass patterns to develop.

All that is helped with Ellison as the HB.

With Ellison in the backfield he at times can go in motion, but most times he is not.

a] In the backfield if pass protection breaks down from either side, Ellison steps up to save the day. As an inline blocker on a tackle's shoulder he can only assist on one side. IMO As long as the Giants have trouble from both sides of the line [tackles] Ellison is better used in the backfield where he can help both sides due to a tackle brain fart

b] He can lead block for Perkins.

c] Allows Perkins to release into pass patterns immediately or after a delay as another weapon for Eli to throw to because he [Ellison, bigger than Perkins] is protecting Eli if there is a need.

Besides averaging 4.1 yards per rush behind that OL, Perkins last year averaged 10.8 per reception beating Vereen's average of 8.5, so he is a weapon!!!
Perkins average also beat out the TEs, where Tye had a 8.2 average per.

but do prefer the Shannahan way as it really steals the initiative from the D:

Rather than asking Ellison to read which side the blitz is from, or which tackle got beat, rather than asking your RB to delay and scoot...you run your outside zone runs zip quick like, walk up, snap the ball.....boom, instant hand off:

This -steals the time- the D needs to read run/pass and takes the initiative and puts it squarely into the hands of our sides play caller.

Then, in addition, the best part- the 'misdirection effect' very quick to start run plays 'left zone', force the D to instantly run towards that side, and give the QB space and freedom to the other side on play actions.

Then, finally, Shanny had league leading numbers last year.

In comment 13478125 Big Blue Blogger said:

Quote:

He was on the field for 95% of the offensive snaps last year, so that number has no place to go but down. His targets (105) might drop a bit too. But I don't expect his production to fall much at all. With other weapons spreading the coverage, he should have more room to operate, which ought to translate into a higher catch percentage and more YAC.

My sentiment exactly. First, Sterling has a season and another off-season under his belt. He talked about little things like which hand he holds the ball in after a reception and such. He is working on improving his game. The more weapons you have on a field at the same time, the more you spread the ball around and create mis-matches.

I see the Giants using a lot of two TE sets this year with both Ellison & Engram on the field. That would translate to less 3 WR sets, of course, but that doesn't mean Sterling won't get his fair share of opportunities. It will depend upon matchups and such.

For example, a team's nickel corner may be out due to injury. You'd certainly want to attack there. Or a team's best nickel cover LB or nickel safety is out you'd attack with Engram more I'd think.

It is all about matchups and with our diverse weapons we should have more production. On paper, this is McAdoo's best offense and if we aren't top 10 this year in yards AND scoring it will only be because of injuries and/or our OL just still sucks beyond measure. I think our oL steps up. Injuries no one can truly predict.

may SEEM more complex to O linesmen, its really much more helpful to them, in that sense, much easier, in terms of setting them up for success. Because it gives them the initiative -

whereas, asking our OL to sit on heels and read/react (a nasty word in these parts) to onrushing defensive players, lead us into a fairly anemic O last year, or at least, a very fickle one.

came out in 11 personnel base formation 92% of the plays last year (I read this on another fan site recently). That's way to high and the offense became very predictable in 2016.

Obviously Mac will still use a heavy dose of 11 base personnel (1RB, 1TE and 3WR), but this team needs diversity in the way it attacks defenses, more 12 and 13 personnel base formations will go a long way to accomplishing that and Engram will be a key component to it.

So you think it would work for the Giants OL?
Make Flowers and Hart better?

also do for Jerry and Fluker?

show them a window to go through, how to go through it, and trust them.

in addition, you may find that we have roster players that suit the Shanny way better as tackles, allowing young Flowers and Hart to play guard, I really won't try to pretend to know the answer, but outside zone runs with a TE on each side may suit:

EE/Pugh/Flowers/Rich\Hart\Biz\EL

or some variation therefor (also makes your interior bigger) wheras your TE/OT quad may move more, less pulling guards, more OT in space stuff.

EE is on the move, either direction, Pugh has to run out and hit a LB, Flowers gets to Tee Off on a DE but from the side, from the left guard spot, Rich hits the DT on an angle, Hart hits the Nose or other DT from right guard, or helps Rich, and ELs hits the DE from that side.

I could have that wrong, but, the idea is that on some plays the TEs simply make the OT job easier, and on others you ask your OTs to move in space. This allows your guards and center to stay in the interior and hit people from the sides.

Ouch in this case.

SGMen.
Shepard, Vereen, JAdams and Gallman have to be in the mix significantly enough to NOT have a 90% same 11 lineup like last year.
Stay ahead of opponents just like BB does. Our East opponents added DE to get to Eli and our pass potential; the above 4 could make enough variations on a theme that Eli can more easily audible into that by mid 2nd qtr, DCs will be just guessing the and hoping for the best.

In comment 13478030 TyFromQueens said:

Quote:

Negates the mismatches he will constantly create at TE. Will he line up in the slot from time to time? I'm sure. But I seriously doubt he starts over Sheppard. What's important about all of this is the different personnel packages we can roll out now.

it negates nothing. engram is a mismatch where ever/whenever he lines up. pushing 240 pounds with more speed than AJ Green, who's matching up with that?

to this thread isn't a big deal. People also forget you have different personnel packages so you can have it where both are on the field at the same time, or one or the other. That's why you have personnel packages. You mix and match depends on what that personnel package is trying to accomplish.

making the team either. He would give them a pure FB, which was needed at times last year and was sorely missed in the run game. I'm not so sure Ellison could provide what Smith can. It would be nice to have a pure FB that can blast a hole in the defense, especially the way this Oline blocked for the running game last year. Pre-season will be very important in determining just who will get that role.

40 time: Engram
3 cone: Engram
20 yard shuttle: Engram
broad jump: Engram

that ... plus 6'3 235 or 5'10 195? the potential for 2 TE looks that can motion into a 3WR formation vs lining up 3WR like 99% of last year.

as soon as engram adapts to the NFL, there is very little reason to play Shepard outside of 4WR / breathers for Odell/Marshall scenarios.

this is a lovely problem to have. maybe engram lines up outside to keep Marshall fresh, with Shepard in the slot ... but I expect his snaps to nosedive this year.