NFT: Feelings if Knicks getting Hill, Evans in FA

I like George Hill, but he's getting older and has missed a lot of games over the past 3 years. I'd have to see that contract first.

32 and openly said he will have to choose joining a winning team or getting a huge deal. Which one is the Knicks? Massive pass. Massive. Enough adding guys over 30

"sounds pretty Knicks-ish"

they aren't getting a whole bunch in return...so IMO they need to start a youth movement building around Porzingis.

Any other approach is pure stupidity.

and a star to build around, has such limited options.

Thank you Phil Jackson. And Dolan, of course, but that's a given.

I hear they are trying out this guy, who knows how to play the triangle:

and what seems like a decent regime in Utah.

he will have plenty of suitors.
that combination makes the likelihood of him wanting to sign with the knicks, at zero.

He's a better playmaker than rose. He won't make you "win" too many games either. I'd prefer Sergio but while evans has been overrated because of his productive early years, I feel he's been pretty underrated and under appreciated as of late. He's ideally a 6th man.

But I think jerebko could be a fantastic cheap signing if Melo is traded. He's a Joe Ingles light. Zach Lowe called him " one of the best switch-bigs" in the league. He can play some 3 and 4. Plus rebounder, can hit 3s and not an awful play maker. Knows his role, plays to his strengths.

It would be the best thing for us. Use cap space to re-sign Ronnie Baker and perhaps Justin Holiday, otherwise just fill in with current draft picks + players/picks received in Melo and Lee trades.

....just less spectacular doing his thing. He gets to the rim quite effectively and lacks a reliable jumper. And he's highly injury prone.

However, he is a better rebounder and passer than Rose.

I don't how much the NBA CBA allows for incentive laden deals, but Evans is the perfect candidate for one.

and had 32mm to spend (via Rose's expiring plus half of Melo's deal assuming a trade for a lousy player like Rivers), I'd want to spend the 32mm as follows:

4 * 14mm on Jonathan Simmons

3 * 6mm on Mike Muscala (novel concept: get a guy whose best basketball is ahead of him, not behind him; Muscala is very athletic, skilled, very long and intelligent - I think he is ready flourish)

3 * 5mm on Justin Holiday

+7mm left over for other moves

Bigs: KP, WH, Muscala, KOQ, Noah
Wings: Simmons, Lee, Holiday, Rivers, Kooz
PG: Dennis Smith, Ron Baker

That may be a lottery team but that is okay. Its a team of guys in their 20s, many of them "honest day's work" guys who dig in defensively, play w a BBAll IQ that isn't < of their shoe size. Its also a very athletic team. Lastly, its a roster that starts to change the culture.

In comment 13478441 Pep22 said:

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and had 32mm to spend (via Rose's expiring plus half of Melo's deal assuming a trade for a lousy player like Rivers), I'd want to spend the 32mm as follows: 4 * 14mm on Jonathan Simmons 3 * 6mm on Mike Muscala (novel concept: get a guy whose best basketball is ahead of him, not behind him; Muscala is very athletic, skilled, very long and intelligent - I think he is ready flourish) 3 * 5mm on Justin Holiday +7mm left over for other moves Bigs: KP, WH, Muscala, KOQ, Noah Wings: Simmons, Lee, Holiday, Rivers, Kooz PG: Dennis Smith, Ron Baker That may be a lottery team but that is okay. Its a team of guys in their 20s, many of them "honest day's work" guys who dig in defensively, play w a BBAll IQ that isn't < of their shoe size. Its also a very athletic team. Lastly, its a roster that starts to change the culture.

Simmons-Ok, wouldn't be completely against it. Not small money, but he's young-ish

Muscala- Hell no. They have Willy, Noah, and KOQ. WTH do they need another big for?

Holiday- No, let him walk. He's the type of player you aim to get with a 2nd rounder on a minimum deal.

Locking up guys like Muscala and Holiday on non-1 year deals for small-but-not-minimum contracts is a fantastic way to replicate the Trail Blazers salary structure.

Big time pass for me.

I think signing him allows for a nice 3 man rotation as your primary BIGs (KP, WH, MM)

He's very athletic, long, can shoot. He's also smart.

If I were writing the checks, guys like Muscala and Holiday are how I spend my $$, reasonable/modest gambles on high work ethic, bright players who can shoot and defend.

It also allows for a a KOQ trade for let's say one of their three first rounders where I would target a Jae Crowder type guy in Semi Ojeleye.

structure isn't small deals, its massive deals < MAX i.e. Crabbe at 18.5mm per, Harkless at 9mm per, Leonard at 9mm, Aminu at 8mm, Turner at 16mm per...to go along w Lilliard's 24mm which is fine.

In comment 13478489 Pep22 said:

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structure isn't small deals, its massive deals < MAX i.e. Crabbe at 18.5mm per, Harkless at 9mm per, Leonard at 9mm, Aminu at 8mm, Turner at 16mm per...to go along w Lilliard's 24mm which is fine.

There aren't small deals on the Knicks roster either. Noah and Lee combine for $30M a year.

The small Trail Blazers deals aren't on useless players, either. Harkless and Aminu are solid role players, as is Davis.

The Knicks already have Thomas. I'm not interested in adding more bench players. I liked Muscala coming out of college, I just don't see what he truly brings to the table that willy, NOAH and KOQ don't already. Hes a worse rebounder than all 3 and defender than KOQ and Noah.

Plus KP should get a few minutes at the 5. So we now have a rotation of 5 different players that play the two big spots (excluding any small ball 4s)? Yeah, hard pass. It's going the opposite way of the rest of the NBA.

I'm fine with the big deal to Simmons, a guy who "could" be a piece. Other than that I'd want guys on 1-2 year deals. You can land Holiday's and Muscala's in the 2nd round or on cheap minimum deals.

I don't think we would land a max level FA in the next two years, but what if KP has a GF-esque jump and suddenly the Knicks look like a good team to go to? I'd rather leave cap space open long term than spend 33% of our cap space for our bench.

Pass.

He's got a great shot and a decent all around game. He'd be a big upgrade from Rose.

but I think its contingent on what you get via the draft. If its DSJ, then maybe he and Baker run the point and you spend your $$ on Simmons or to a lesser extent James Johnson.

as a role player, but i dont think id want the knicks to get him. I think he is going to get a descent contract (nothing too crazy) and i think he is a better fit on a good team. Im also worried that he wont look as good as he has when you are playing him starter minutes. Sometimes guys look a lot better only playing 15 minutes a game against backups. Since Parker went down Mills has not exactly been tearing it up. Im not saying he cant be an above avg starter, but im not sure i want to take the chance. Of course id rather take a shot on him at what he will get as opposed to signing Hill, thats for sure.

No more quick fixes and over priced mediocre FAs
Need to rebuild with youth

Told all of you they just want to be competitive, they have zero interest in rebuilding anything. Just stay the fuck away and let them self destruct, that is the only way to help this organization. You show up and you are part of the problem, it's that simple.

In comment 13478575 PaulN said:

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Told all of you they just want to be competitive, they have zero interest in rebuilding anything. Just stay the fuck away and let them self destruct, that is the only way to help this organization. You show up and you are part of the problem, it's that simple.

Phil just said last week:

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Hopefully we�ll maybe be a playoff team next year. It would be tough to consider us possible champions.�

That's him saying we're going to stink. You're basically not allowed to say "we wont make the playoffs". It's bad for the league to admit it.

I give the Knicks/Phil no benefit of the doubt, but I'd like to believe Phil isnt dumb enough to think that a 32 year old George Hill on an overpay is a move that fits with this organization's window.

Tyreke, I have barely seen play since Sacramento. After that 20-5-5 rookie season, he really looked like a future star.

winning championships or making the playoffs or achieving any competitive goal is on PJs agenda. I think he and Dolan are playing a game of chicken with the winner getting $12mm a year.

typical knicks move to me..

to pin something like this on one player, but I'll forever remain convinced that the Pelicans would have beat the Warriors in game 3 of their 2015 playoff series if it weren't for Tyreke Evans.

I remember it this way: Ryan Anderson was absolutely on fire, they were holding onto a lead of around 15, and Evans decides to try to go coast to coast after a missed shot against maybe the entire Warriors team gathered in the paint, with Ryan Anderson standing open on the perimeter.

In comment 13478589 Pep22 said:

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winning championships or making the playoffs or achieving any competitive goal is on PJs agenda. I think he and Dolan are playing a game of chicken with the winner getting $12mm a year.

If you're suggesting that Phil is waiting to get fired and Dolan waiting for him to quit, I think you're dead wrong. I think Dolan is incredibly happy that people are taking a shit on someone other than him for the Knicks. That is easily worth $12 million of mostly O.P.M. for Dolan.

This reminds me of the Rangers. Dolan brought in Glen Sather in 2000. Sather had put together the juggernaut Oilers team that won 5 Stanley Cups. His early time in NY was a disaster, as Sather just spent and spent and spent. Dolan didnt give a shit. Dolan was just so happy to have a legendary old hand around to steer the ship and take the crap. Rightfully, no one criticized Dolan for a decade of losing or middling hockey.

Dolan has got that now with Phil. It's Phil's show and everyone knows it. More importantly, everyone believes it. Dolan is off the hook. For that, Dolan would probably give Phil a raise.

In comment 13478695 Deej said:

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In comment 13478589 Pep22 said: Quote: winning championships or making the playoffs or achieving any competitive goal is on PJs agenda. I think he and Dolan are playing a game of chicken with the winner getting $12mm a year. If you're suggesting that Phil is waiting to get fired and Dolan waiting for him to quit, I think you're dead wrong. I think Dolan is incredibly happy that people are taking a shit on someone other than him for the Knicks. That is easily worth $12 million of mostly O.P.M. for Dolan. This reminds me of the Rangers. Dolan brought in Glen Sather in 2000. Sather had put together the juggernaut Oilers team that won 5 Stanley Cups. His early time in NY was a disaster, as Sather just spent and spent and spent. Dolan didnt give a shit. Dolan was just so happy to have a legendary old hand around to steer the ship and take the crap. Rightfully, no one criticized Dolan for a decade of losing or middling hockey. Dolan has got that now with Phil. It's Phil's show and everyone knows it. More importantly, everyone believes it. Dolan is off the hook. For that, Dolan would probably give Phil a raise.

Between this and the fact that the Knicks could win 30 games a year and still fill the building 80% at their ridiculous prices, I think this is the closest thing to accurate you can get.

EZ Draft by Rotoden‏ @RotodenDraft
Top 5 prospect Josh Jackson will attend anger management classes according to @jessenewell. This will also help with alcohol & drug habits

In comment 13478809 Anakim said:

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EZ Draft by Rotoden‏ @RotodenDraft Top 5 prospect Josh Jackson will attend anger management classes according to @jessenewell. This will also help with alcohol & drug habits

Oy.

Ian Begley‏
@IanBegley

Ian Begley Retweeted ESPN New York
NYK's looking for more 2-way players like C. Lee in free-agency. Have shown preliminary interest in PJ Tucker, Dante Cunningham, per sources

tough player. Tucker too.

Semi Ojeleye projects as a player of this type too: wing defender with a lot of versatility and physical/rugged style (think Jae Crowder).

like showing interest in two role players on the wrong side of 30.

is to change the culture

regardless of age, its always wise to bring in high IQ, high character players...something the NYK haven't exactly had an excess of in recent years (decades)

Cunningham would be very cheap

In comment 13479256 Pep22 said:

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is to change the culture regardless of age, its always wise to bring in high IQ, high character players...something the NYK haven't exactly had an excess of in recent years (decades) Cunningham would be very cheap

given the realities of the rising salary cap, predicting who and who isn't going to be cheap is next to impossible. As for culture, that doesn't change until the best players on the team buy into a team concept....and the clowns running things either get fired or get their respective acts together. PJ Brown isn't changing a damn thing on his own.

In comment 13479204 Anakim said:

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Ian Begley‏ @IanBegley Ian Begley Retweeted ESPN New York NYK's looking for more 2-way players like C. Lee in free-agency. Have shown preliminary interest in PJ Tucker, Dante Cunningham, per sources

Would much rather go after an up and coming guy like Ian Clark. Only 26 years old, comes from a winning team, can shoot really well. Even if they signed him as Lee's replacement and traded Lee. I'd take 2 high 2nds for Lee.

In comment 13479291 Enzo said:

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In comment 13479256 Pep22 said: Quote: is to change the culture regardless of age, its always wise to bring in high IQ, high character players...something the NYK haven't exactly had an excess of in recent years (decades) Cunningham would be very cheap given the realities of the rising salary cap, predicting who and who isn't going to be cheap is next to impossible. As for culture, that doesn't change until the best players on the team buy into a team concept....and the clowns running things either get fired or get their respective acts together. PJ Brown isn't changing a damn thing on his own.

It's funny to me that we have to announce an interest in people who can play at both ends of the floor. As if it's a new era. No more "can only play at one end" guys for us. Except Noah, who we own.

I tend to agree with Pep. This doesnt need to be an either/or. KP is a willing player. Surround him with good defenders and the culture will be one of defense. If we're going to suck for a few seasons (and that's what I want), do it while laying down a culture of team defense, and putting KP and any other top young talent we get in a position to have to score the hard buckets. They'll fail a bunch but learn. How much can you learn on a team of no-defense, one-on-one offensive talents?

In comment 13479312 TyreeHelmet said:

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In comment 13479204 Anakim said: Quote: Ian Begley‏ @IanBegley Ian Begley Retweeted ESPN New York NYK's looking for more 2-way players like C. Lee in free-agency. Have shown preliminary interest in PJ Tucker, Dante Cunningham, per sources Would much rather go after an up and coming guy like Ian Clark. Only 26 years old, comes from a winning team, can shoot really well. Even if they signed him as Lee's replacement and traded Lee. I'd take 2 high 2nds for Lee.

Yup. Take shots at guys that may be able to contribute 3-4 years down the line. Guys like Clark and Simmons. Hell I don't think James young is an NBA player but I'd much rather take a chance on a 22 year old than vets that'll be out of the league when KP signs his next deal.

Ben mclemore isn't a useful NBA player. If he wasn't restricted I would've loved to give him a Derrick williams one-off deal. I'm sure SAC isn't willing to match ANY offer with Hield in the fold but being a RFA it be easy for them to match a 1 year deal.

In comment 13479322 giantsfan44ab said:

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In comment 13479312 TyreeHelmet said: Quote: In comment 13479204 Anakim said: Quote: Ian Begley‏ @IanBegley Ian Begley Retweeted ESPN New York NYK's looking for more 2-way players like C. Lee in free-agency. Have shown preliminary interest in PJ Tucker, Dante Cunningham, per sources Would much rather go after an up and coming guy like Ian Clark. Only 26 years old, comes from a winning team, can shoot really well. Even if they signed him as Lee's replacement and traded Lee. I'd take 2 high 2nds for Lee. Yup. Take shots at guys that may be able to contribute 3-4 years down the line. Guys like Clark and Simmons. Hell I don't think James young is an NBA player but I'd much rather take a chance on a 22 year old than vets that'll be out of the league when KP signs his next deal.

Totally agree. I really don't see any need to sign PJ Tucker to this current Knicks team. This signals to me that they are doing the classic Knicks of trying to build while making the playoffs. Do a true rebuild- put young players around KP, take your lumps next year, and get another top pick.

Look at the teams that will be competing for the top pick next year.

Brooklyn- no incentive to tank
Philly- should be much improved and probably not looking to tank.
Lakers- no reason to tank. Philly owns their pick.
Minny- Will be much improved and probably much better under Thibs year 2.
Phoenix- young team that will still probably be at the bottom of the league.
Kings- same as Phoenix
Orlando- You would hope to see some improvement but who knows.

Point is you won't have a large number of teams tanking for a top pick. If the Knicks play it smart, they could easily be in the running for a top 3 pick in a loaded 2018 draft.

I wouldn't mind going after. As always with the caveat of the right price:

-J. Simmons:Earned himself a big deal from the playoffs alone. Spurs could likely lose him, they have a lot of moving parts this offseason and could be going for CP3 or Hill. Wouldn't mind overpaying because he looks like a legit plus NBA starter.

-Ian Clark: combo guard, could be a nice 6th man

-James young: no defense but could create his own shot. Potential Nick young type.

-Willie reed: good rebounding/defensive/hustle big for Miami

-Jeff withey: decent rim protector

-Mclemore: thought he had all star potential coming out of Kansas. Off the charts athleticism and legit 3 point shooter. Baffling.

-Jerebko: good 3 and D wing/big. Would rush at the minimum.

-Snell: price matters, but looks like an NBA 3 and D wing

-Rodriguez: stopgap PG option

-Evans: backup stopgap PG option

-Rondo: not a fan of his attitude nowadays, but is useful when he tries

-Montajunos: butchered his name, very injury prone but a 1 year deal couldn't hurt

-Sullinger: had an NBA role before injuries. Could be another cheap 1 year option

-Bullock: longshot 3 and D player

-Larry sanders: haven't heard much from him after he signed in Cleveland but he looked like a legit top 10 center before he left the NBA.

close enough to competing to throw money at any of those guys. Nor should any of them want to come here.

Dump Melo, draft well, bring back the young scrappy core, compete with guys that want to win and will play in the system.

The more I like OG for our pick. I think he might have the best physical profile of anyone in this draft- his combination of strength, explosiveness (can get up off one and two feet), and lateral quickness. He's a man-child. He can guard 4 positions (potentially 5 as a small ball center). Potential as a playmaker. If he was a 35-37% 3 point shooter before getting hurt I don't think there would be much doubt that he'd be in the "top 7" discussion. Think he has a higher ceiling than frank.

Of your list, Clark and Simmons are most attractive.

Another attractive option would be to trade KOQ for a late # 1 i.e. Portland and draft Semi Ojeleye then sign Ekpe Udoh, who has been playing in Europe and has improved markedly in the last couple of years.

a big fan of OG. I'll get killed for this, but he has a similar profile as Kawhi.

defensive wings who are highly athletic often provide value on defense (of course) but often improve their offense quite a bit too. Obviously Leonard and Butler are the poster children for this, but a Jae Crowder type would be nice as well.

On another note, I wonder why Stanley Johnson hasn't found success yet.

In comment 13479369 Jon in NYC said:

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a big fan of OG. I'll get killed for this, but he has a similar profile as Kawhi.

His freshman year at Indiana everyone would throw around Kawhi's name. It'd be unfair to expect any prospect to experience the development that Kawhi has, but from a raw explosiveness and size standpoint I think OG surpasses almost all 6'7-ish players in the NBA.

His jumpshot and handle are the two things that are probably holding scouts from labeling him with "star" potential, but he's looked capable at times as a spot up shooter.

I think Draymond would be a fairer comparison. Certainly less skilled/polished but a much, much better athlete.

correct?

means he can't work out too much for teams

In comment 13479394 Pep22 said:

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correct? means he can't work out too much for teams

Yup. Of course he's going to slip to Milwaukee's pick somehow and cause a global freakout.

wondering why the draft sites view Josh Jackson in higher regard than OG.

OG advantages: significantly stronger and longer, at least as athletic
JJ advantages: perhaps a better motor
In common: both a work in progress in terms of handle, passing and shooting

I wonder the same about Ntilikia and Donovan Mitchell.

DM advantages: significantly stronger and more athletic
JJ advantages: taller but only slightly longer, some believe he has PG potential whereas DM is probably an Avery Bradley type
In common: both can shoot it well and have extraordinary defensive potential

OG has the ACL and JJ has some character concerns

But I would LOVE to see the Knicks find a way to pick up another first round pick and snag him.

I think his handle is FAR more advanced than OG's. He's also a more versatile shooter. OG is a spot up shooter who doesn't really have a mid range game as of yet. Jackson shot quite well on pull ups and step backs. OG is simply a spot up shooter so far.

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Ian Begley‏ @IanBegley 1m1 minute ago Ex-Knick Lou Amundson will play as a reserve for the Tri-State team in the Big 3 League - a 3-on-3 league for ex pros created by Ice Cube.

two years ago this guy started a bunch of games for us - now he's backing up 40-year-olds in some bs legends league. Hysterical.

In comment 13479347 TyreeHelmet said:

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Totally agree. I really don't see any need to sign PJ Tucker to this current Knicks team. This signals to me that they are doing the classic Knicks of trying to build while making the playoffs. Do a true rebuild- put young players around KP, take your lumps next year, and get another top pick. Look at the teams that will be competing for the top pick next year. Brooklyn- no incentive to tank Philly- should be much improved and probably not looking to tank. Lakers- no reason to tank. Philly owns their pick. Minny- Will be much improved and probably much better under Thibs year 2. Phoenix- young team that will still probably be at the bottom of the league. Kings- same as Phoenix Orlando- You would hope to see some improvement but who knows. Point is you won't have a large number of teams tanking for a top pick. If the Knicks play it smart, they could easily be in the running for a top 3 pick in a loaded 2018 draft.

Well I'd encourage a tank but I understand that few teams will really do it.

I disagree that bringing in 30 year old hard worker defense types is classic Knicks. Classic Knicks is chasing the huge names. The former uber talents with injury problems or who never played defense. Francis, Marbury, Stat, McDyess etc. -- that is classic Knicks.

The Knicks have cap money to spend; it doesnt carry over. Assume a full tank job is off the table, so they wont be taking bad contract for futures as a core building device. Assume further that the top tier max FAs (Hayward aint coming here). What do you do with the UFA money? Eat it? Sign someone else's enigma to a big contract? I would say that getting guys who play right and hard is a worthwhile use of $$ as a development tool. Get all the lollygaggers off the team and replace them with hard nose guys and it will rub off on the impressionable young talents. The Knicks need to be harder to play against.

is if you're shopping for veteran role player types, the Knicks aren't getting any of them with competitive offers - they'd have to outbid other teams by enough to make it worthwhile for these guys to choose us over a winning team. And that's how you end up with with bad contracts/negative assets..and then 2-3 years down the line our next moron GM is offering up a draft pick to shed the salary. I agree that any hopes of them attracting names at the top of the market or of them finally getting smart enough to rent out the cap space are slim to none....but it's hard to trust that they'd be prudent in terms of years and dollars when offering deals to these guys.

It's a fair concern. You just have to have limits. Dont overbid. Sign guys to deescalating contracts rather than ones that get more expensive over time.

That's a good start to the offseason...

more problems but with the Knicks/Phil, thats all that exists.

The problem is whether RR can be effective in the (friggin) triangle. He is a high usage guy that excels at having the ball "on a string", probing...looking for passing angles. Sort of a homeless man's Chris Paul style wise. That type of player never existed with the championship Bulls or Lakers that Jackson coached nor the shitty Knicks that Phil has presided over.

Phil was obviously interested in Rubio before. I don't even think phil is still super intent on running the triangle exclusively, he just knows he'd look like a fool if he said that publicly.