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NFT: So my daughter has ADHD..

GMAN4LIFE : 5/23/2017 11:33 am
sucks that it was deleted as there was alot of info on there.

Anyway to reinstate it to get the info back.
even Eric commented in it. all the convos fucking left  
GMAN4LIFE : 5/23/2017 11:36 am : link
god damn it
Why was that  
SimpleMan : 5/23/2017 11:38 am : link
deleted?
Wasn't on the other thread so no clue if this was posted  
BlueHurricane : 5/23/2017 11:39 am : link
Worth a read. Too many medications in this country.
Psychology Today - ( New Window )
NFT label probably  
GMAN4LIFE : 5/23/2017 11:39 am : link
fucking sucked
hey mods, anyway to get that info back in here....  
GMAN4LIFE : 5/23/2017 11:45 am : link
some of that info was great and could help me
.  
Danny Kanell : 5/23/2017 11:46 am : link
There was a lot of good info on that thread. If it was deleted because of NFT, someone needs their head examined.
lets try this...will likely look like crap...  
Bold Ruler : Mod : 5/23/2017 11:48 am : link
I'm on the verge of doing the same thing as you for my son
antdog24 : 9:43 am : link : Delete
so I will be following this thread very closely. I think you are doing the right thing, follow the doctors recommendations and avoid meds as long as you can.

I was ADHD as a kid, they wanted to medicate me but my parents wouldn't let them. This was in the mid 80's and there wasn't as many options back then. I learned to control it but I still have issues with concentration to this day. I hope everything works out for your little girl.
Another thing the last doctor thought was possibly using
GMAN4LIFE : 9:47 am : link : Delete
Adderall or Redaline(sp).

I could have sworn those were the drugs i hear on the commercials for lawyers.
Whats the Age?
adevin25 : 9:51 am : link : Delete
I have an 8 year old Boy who has ADHD, My ex-wife and i have done everything in our power to keep the idea of drugs off the table. I would push harder then a 504 plan an ask the school about an IEP. Depending on the state this should fall under OHI (Other Health Impared)

Yes hyperactivity and ADHD can be a problem but an IEP Provides more guidance and extra help if needed? Are there any other issues besides ADHD? Visual / spacial issues? Social Issues? Or does your child just have a lot of "Energy"

Also have you considered a naturalist? You should be able to google a naturalist. We found a correlations between certain foods and the levels of up and down, high energy to low energy. It can be a struggle. Something that work for us was going Lactose free. There are some great alternatives like Almond Milk that are great replacements.

I will say this having gone thru this the past 4 years with Early Intervention in the state of NY and now in the district get involved. Talk to the school / your childs teacher.

Also know there are a lot of resources to help you. Talk to the Special Needs Administrator in your district to get an idea of what resources there are and what else can be done.

It sounds like everything you are doing is correct.
RE: Whats the Age?
GMAN4LIFE : 9:57 am : link : Delete
In comment 13479246 adevin25 said:
Quote:
I have an 8 year old Boy who has ADHD, My ex-wife and i have done everything in our power to keep the idea of drugs off the table. I would push harder then a 504 plan an ask the school about an IEP. Depending on the state this should fall under OHI (Other Health Impared)

Yes hyperactivity and ADHD can be a problem but an IEP Provides more guidance and extra help if needed? Are there any other issues besides ADHD? Visual / spacial issues? Social Issues? Or does your child just have a lot of "Energy"

Also have you considered a naturalist? You should be able to google a naturalist. We found a correlations between certain foods and the levels of up and down, high energy to low energy. It can be a struggle. Something that work for us was going Lactose free. There are some great alternatives like Almond Milk that are great replacements.

I will say this having gone thru this the past 4 years with Early Intervention in the state of NY and now in the district get involved. Talk to the school / your childs teacher.

Also know there are a lot of resources to help you. Talk to the Special Needs Administrator in your district to get an idea of what resources there are and what else can be done.

It sounds like everything you are doing is correct.


she doesn't have social issues or anything else. Its just hyperactivity and fidgety.

My wife is a school Adminstrator and wants her off of IEP as that will classify her as something or other. Sorry but didnt understand her reasoning but its to the effect of it wont help her academically and hold her back. She should be in gifted and talented classes but this could hold her back.

We are working already with the school counselor and teacher to give her what she needs to do better. We are also working on methods at home to help her focus more(reward methods for behavior)
The meds help my son tremendously
Rocky369 : 10:01 am : link : Delete
there's a marked difference when he's not on his medication. He does not like taking it, whether it's swallowing a pill or some side effect he hasn't voiced to us, but does not regularly complain. At age 9 he is growing in his responsibility to take his meds when prompted in the mornings, and sometimes even on his own as part of his morning routine. We do not make him take it on the weekends or school breaks, outside of events he might be attending. I'm on board with the reluctance to medication, and especially after the recent thread about phsycial/mental long term side effects. But for now, it has been a workable solution.
Adderall and Ritalin
pjcas18 : 10:08 am : link : Delete
are essentially stimulants. the risk is not IMO with being "medicated" it's a very small risk of a heart issue.

I think people look for boogeymen and the fact America has a tendency to medicate seems like a good choice for many people.

however, the fact that there are treatments available for so many ailments that previously went undetected or at least unsuccessfully treated is really a good thing.

in my experience, follow your pediatrician's advice, and if they feel medication would help, then do it, in the smallest effective dose possible.

And regularly check to see if it's still necessary, since many children grow out of this.

You and your wife know your daughter better than anyone else, even their pediatrician, if her behavior, focus, performance, etc. is suffering due to this affliction then you do what you can to treat it IMO.

my point is sometimes people stress avoiding medicating and that opinion usually does not come from any basis in fact, it's almost like the anti-vaccine movements to me.
I have ADHD
AnishPatel : 10:08 am : link : Delete
so if you have any specific questions let me know. You can email me if you want to as well.
...
Eric from BBI : Admin : 10:09 am : link : Delete
The medical profession and schools have gotten lazy. As have some parents. When my son was in 4th grade, his teacher said he had ADHD. We had him tested and while he showed some signs, they said he was on the low end of whatever scale they use.

We met with the principal, teacher, teacher's assistant, and counselor - all were pushing meds. At this point, I got angry and said, "In what way are you people qualified to prescribe medication for my son?"

Their later arguments included such things as:

(1) He's doing fine in school now, but he may not be able to get in advanced placement courses in later grades. (So what was my response? You want him to take drugs so he can get better grades?!)

(2) He seems to only enjoy reading about subjects that he is interested in. (So do I. Does that make me ADHD?)

Fast forward to today. We never put him on meds. He's a solid A/B student, well-adjusted, and doing just fine.

Be careful with this stuff.
BTW
Eric from BBI : Admin : 10:12 am : link : Delete
In talking to other parents about this subject, doctors/schools also don't seem to recognize that boys are different and more rambunctious at an earlier age. Girls tend to be more mature.

It's tough
AnishPatel : 10:15 am : link : Delete
thing because teachers see the meds as almost a behavior modification quick fix where now that student can sit still, pay attention, and if he/she was not doing well, could now possibly to well since their focus is unwavering.

I was diagnosed in undergrad and I was able to take extra time on exams which helped me big time.
You forgot one group there Eric - the parents
jcn56 : 10:18 am : link : Delete
The reason some of those educators and doctors are willing to quickly prescribe meds is because they're often dealing with parents who are looking for a quick fix, and nothing's quicker than a prescription.

I got diagnosed with ADHD as an adult. It made sense, since as a kid I was all of those things, and had a terrible time concentrating on things that didn't interest me (the guy who pulled A's on all his AP math/science courses but had solid C's in English lit). I tried the medication once as an adult. It definitely helped me focus, but it caused all kinds of erratic mood swings. It wasn't for me, and I'd be reluctant to give it to a child unless the situation was very serious.
I agree
AnishPatel : 10:21 am : link : Delete
I did my Pediatric rotation earlier this year, and you the health care providers are caught between the parents and the school administrators. The school administrators want something done, and the parents are emotional and everyone wants the health care provider to make it better.
depending on you school
Alex_Webster : 10:22 am : link : Delete
Most classes that have students with IEP's,are all lumped into the same classes. So what ends up happening is she is placed with mainly low kids. Those classes teach to lowest common denominator. Again this is schools that have overloaded IEP's.
If your child is borderline, most teachers that can be honest, will tell you get them out. Most administrations want more in those classes due to extra funds. Just my 2 cents. My Girlfriend teaches 7th grade civics and outside of honors, 60% have IEP's. She has a few classes that are 80% + and borderline kids in those classes just get further behind. Again this depends on your school district.
I tried adderall
pjcas18 : 10:26 am : link : Delete
recreationally and I could immediately see why athletes are drawn to it.

I felt like I could climb Mt Everest and instead of procrastinating on stuff or slogging through it I was super focused on and accomplished almost twice to three times as much as normal. I have never taken it since, but curiosity got the best of me b/c I wanted to understand the hoopla.

I've never tried cocaine, but in my mind, the effect would be similar to adderall.

I feel like it (adderall) should be available to grown ups over the counter.


RE: You forgot one group there Eric - the parents
Eric from BBI : Admin : 10:27 am : link : Delete
In comment 13479289 jcn56 said:
Quote:
The reason some of those educators and doctors are willing to quickly prescribe meds is because they're often dealing with parents who are looking for a quick fix, and nothing's quicker than a prescription.

I got diagnosed with ADHD as an adult. It made sense, since as a kid I was all of those things, and had a terrible time concentrating on things that didn't interest me (the guy who pulled A's on all his AP math/science courses but had solid C's in English lit). I tried the medication once as an adult. It definitely helped me focus, but it caused all kinds of erratic mood swings. It wasn't for me, and I'd be reluctant to give it to a child unless the situation was very serious.


I mentioned parents.
RE: ...
Matt M. : 10:30 am : link : Delete
In comment 13479274 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
The medical profession and schools have gotten lazy. As have some parents. When my son was in 4th grade, his teacher said he had ADHD. We had him tested and while he showed some signs, they said he was on the low end of whatever scale they use.

We met with the principal, teacher, teacher's assistant, and counselor - all were pushing meds. At this point, I got angry and said, "In what way are you people qualified to prescribe medication for my son?"

Their later arguments included such things as:

(1) He's doing fine in school now, but he may not be able to get in advanced placement courses in later grades. (So what was my response? You want him to take drugs so he can get better grades?!)

(2) He seems to only enjoy reading about subjects that he is interested in. (So do I. Does that make me ADHD?)

Fast forward to today. We never put him on meds. He's a solid A/B student, well-adjusted, and doing just fine.

Be careful with this stuff.
Unfortunately a lot of teachers and administrator's are quick to push meds. It's not out of concern for the child, but because of the perception that it will make their lives easier in the classroom.
And
Eric from BBI : Admin : 10:31 am : link : Delete
I'm sorry, not paying attention to a subject that doesn't interest you is not an indication you are ADHD. If that's true, then most of the population is ADHD. As an adult, I enjoy reading those things that interest me. Why should kids be different?

I am very leery of pharmaceutical companies pushing this stuff. I saw this professionally when I was with the USG. Their lobbyists basically lived in our office and they even hired our people away (four times) to become future lobbyists. It's all about the $$$.
True, my ADD strikes again...
jcn56 : 10:33 am : link : Delete
although I think you're underscoring it when you say some. I'd put it at a lot more than you'd think or hope are lazy and just want to get the problems off their back. This is one of the reasons schools have defaulted to that solution, because there aren't enough parents willing to do the work and keep them honest.
Both my kids are on Adderal
Steve L : 10:36 am : link : Delete
And it helps them tremendously. They are noticeably more focused and their grades improved dramatically. One boy says he doesn't like it because he thinks it makes him less social, which is a possibility. We are meeting with the doc next week to discuss things.

If your kid goes on meds, it may take a bit to figure out what and how much. Be patient.
As far as I know
pjcas18 : 10:38 am : link : Delete
parents, teachers, and school administrators cannot write prescriptions (unless the parent is a doctor).

And most doctors I know won't put their name on a prescription unless they have evaluated the patient and agree the prescription is the best course of action, even if parents push.

and if you as a parent push for a prescription because your kid's teachers or administrators suggest they need it, that's kind of on you and your doctor if they are the kind of doctor who would do that (they won't last long in this day and age, all controlled substances are regulated and pill mills are being cracked down on - more for opiates, but all controlled substances)

medical decisions are left up to doctors to recommend and parents to accept or not.

if you don't accept your doctors recommendations, probably need to find a new doctor that you trust. they know more than you about medicine.
While my sons don't have ADHD, they both have Sensory Processing
Matt M. : 10:39 am : link : Delete
Disorder, which children on the spectrum generally have. While neither have been diagnosed with Asperger's, both were evaluated more than once because they were on the bubble. In addition to issues with focus and self-regulation, similar to ADHD, they also have some emotional and social deficiencies. At one point, teachers mentioned Ritalin for my younger son (the doctor did not). We held off.

Both have IEPs. I highly suggest going to route of a formal evaluation from the school system. Even if you daughter doesn't qualify for related services, there may be academic supports they can provide. For example, my son in middle school has about a dozen supports on his IEP ranging from verbal confirmation of assignments, to prompts, to extra time to pack up, to organization aids, etc. They are also allowed to stand if needed, chew gum to help focus, etc. There are many things and many educational/sensory products to help. There are weighted vests, noise reducing headphones, seat cushions, different stimuli. It is amazing what is available now. Additionally, a lot has changed in terms of the stigma special education used to carry.

I see so many symptoms in my boys that I suffered from. When I was a kid in the 70s and 80s, they went unchecked and just were chalked up to boys lacking focus, etc. Now, these qualify as special education and many schools and school districts are at least trying to be progressive about servicing and teaching these children. A lot still needs to be done, but we have also come a long way.
RE: As far as I know
Matt M. : 10:39 am : link : Delete
In comment 13479318 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
parents, teachers, and school administrators cannot write prescriptions (unless the parent is a doctor).

And most doctors I know won't put their name on a prescription unless they have evaluated the patient and agree the prescription is the best course of action, even if parents push.

and if you as a parent push for a prescription because your kid's teachers or administrators suggest they need it, that's kind of on you and your doctor if they are the kind of doctor who would do that (they won't last long in this day and age, all controlled substances are regulated and pill mills are being cracked down on - more for opiates, but all controlled substances)

medical decisions are left up to doctors to recommend and parents to accept or not.

if you don't accept your doctors recommendations, probably need to find a new doctor that you trust. they know more than you about medicine.
Very well put.
While I highly recommend some of the sensory aids
Matt M. : 10:41 am : link : Delete
I would also advise that it could be a long feeling out process to come up with the right products and "sensory diet" that works for your child. I also found that some products being hailed as focus aids, like these new fidget spinners, end up being even more of a distraction.
.
GMAN4LIFE : 10:44 am : link : Delete
Listen , im all for meds. Frankly, I thought I could beat anxiety without it 3 years ago but then I had to take the meds. Now im slowly coming off it as I have a better handle of it.

I’m not a doctor so I don’t know what the doctors know. I quite frankly should rely on them on it. I just question the quick “you know what, she could use some meds as that will fix this fast.” Its just quick to judge on the first day and not see other methods in the meantime.

And everyone says be careful with the meds. Why is that?
I am a SPED Teacher so here is my take
SimpleMan : 10:44 am : link : Delete
First, these days a lot of kids are diagnosed with ADHD. There are definitely different levels of severity. I have some students who are a complete disaster without medication and some who don't take it. I always tell parents that I do not want to be the one to make the call of meds/no meds. I just explain to them what I observe at school and let them decide. I can work with a kid who is medicated or not, that is part of my job.

If your daughter does well academically that is great. A 504 plan will still provide classroom accommodations such as sitting near a teacher or doing things to minimize distractions. You don't need an IEP if she is not struggling academically.

I would definitely keep a good line of communication open with the school, particularly the teacher(s). They are your eyes and ears during her school day. Ask them what they see and if what the impact is on the school work/progress. Keep in mind that in a lot of cases teachers see students very differently than parents. A lot of parents are surprised at how their children behave at school. Make decisions from there. If she is doing ok in school without meds it sounds like you may want to hold off, but again, that is ultimately your choice.
You're doing
charlito : 10:46 am : link : Delete
The right thing getting multiple opinions. People (teachers, doctors) are quick to want to medicate kids. Thankfully my parents didn't listen to my elementary school teacher, who wanted me on meds because I was too hyper(maybe it was the 2 bowls of lucky charms).
you have to do as much as you can outside of the school
idiotsavant : 10:52 am : link : Delete
there are two problems:

1. One size fits all education methods within mainstream classes.

2. If you don't fit, they consider you 'special', and you get the IEP. Trade off is a promise of a 'more adjusted or nuanced approach', but the problem is that in truth:

Methods and training with regards to how to evaluate children(within 'special' ed) are actually very ridged themselves - in how the educators are trained to interpret the kids aptitudes. It is basically a menu system.

In some districts, the evaluations and theory themselves may actually serve the system, the normal modus operandi, the 'jobs as trained for' as opposed to 'try this', more so than than the actual needs or particular learning styles of particular smart or simply not dumb kids with IEPs.

The IEP report itself will, or can, serve to perpetuate negative trends or mismatched methods:

If it is not written correctly; There are industry norms and language that they WILL use and also methods or understandings that they simply WONT use.

So, it may depend on what your child's profile really is and 'is it a match', because they do not change or adjust methods (as much as they may indicate that they might simply, as implied by, 'including you in the process and meetings').

It is true, whereas many kids with IEPs are smart and have learning style differences as opposed to true delays....

...the main thrust of how many special educators are trained is still (despite what they will tell you)in some districts, or certain educators, through the view of 'slow.'

This can have a devastating effect on a kids behavior and expectations: - any - serious or ongoing disconnect between method and aptitude or learning style.

Imagine if you were lactose intolerant and your partner cooked pizza every night. You might get fidgety during dinner, to say the least.

That said, there can be dietetic causes as well. Or lack of exercise, or problems at home, and yes, poor parenting as well, mea culpa probably. Or all of the above.
My Daughter has ADHD also.
HoustonGiant : 10:52 am : link : Delete
Feel free to email me.

I am also a physician and I reviewed all her tests, sent them to Psychiatrist friends, etc.

I also reviewed countless studies in the current literature to make the best informed decision I could. I initially said, "they just want to drug my child"!

After reviewing the data on treatments. The nuts and bolts are:

1. The younger they are, the more they need medicine.

2. The older they are, the more they benefit from therapy.

3. Left untreated, they will progress to self-medicating (abuse).

My daughter started on meds and titrated up to an average dose and had ZERO complaints this school year, and her lowest grade was a 97!!!

having had a child with severe adhd
Chip : 10:53 am : link : Delete
This is my question can he sit and watch a 30 minute cartoon or play video games without bouncing around. I agree with Eric that teachers have gotten lazy and want to medicate way to quickly. My son who is an adult now drinks a lot of coffee after giving up cigarettes which helps him calm down. I brought him to the movies when he was 6 and has later told me it was like torture trying to sit still and watch a Robin Hood movie.
Also
HoustonGiant : 10:54 am : link : Delete
Her meds last 6-8 hours and we don't use them on the weekends.

We also increased her activity level which studies show will help.
I don't want to offend anyone
rasbutant : 10:58 am : link : Delete
but i believe this can be changed with diet and exercise.

"A pill is a band-aid that you were the rest of you life."

Food is hard. Do your research and remember not all "health foods" are healthy for you.

Start off easy and work your way up to it, no sugar/high fructose corn syrup, no processed food, no gluten, no dairy. Amazing like 90% of our food has these items in it. So yes its a challenge. Also, take Vitamin D.

Again, don't want to offend, I'm not a doctor, i don't want to debate with you, this is what i believe because I've seen the result first hand.
I know medications are popular
Johnny5 : 10:59 am : link : Delete
I have had very bad experiences with family members from prescription drugs. Everything a drug does to you is a side effect, both the good and bad and there are always both. A lot of drugs are prescribed now for conditions they weren't even created for, because some side effect seemed to help another condition.

I would pull my kid and home-school before I gave any kind of drug to them for being fidgety. I'm sure I'll be derided for it but Just giving my opinion. Medication would always be a last straw for me, I would completely exhaust every available option first.
here is more info on my daughter
GMAN4LIFE : 10:59 am : link : Delete
She can sit and watch a tv show for 30 minutes. hell she can sit 2 hours and watch a movie with no problems.

She has a busy plate on her already. Her activities include- Dancing, Swimming, Kumon and Piano.

We also got her fidget toys to see if it helps(not the spinners) and it remains to be seen if its working.
RE: you have to do as much as you can outside of the school
SimpleMan : 11:00 am : link : Delete
In comment 13479337 idiotsavant said:
Quote:
there are two problems:

1. One size fits all education methods within mainstream classes.

2. If you don't fit, they consider you 'special', and you get the IEP. Trade off is a promise of a 'more adjusted or nuanced approach', but the problem is that in truth:

Methods and training with regards to how to evaluate children(within 'special' ed) are actually very ridged themselves - in how the educators are trained to interpret the kids aptitudes. It is basically a menu system.

In some districts, the evaluations and theory themselves may actually serve the system, the normal modus operandi, the 'jobs as trained for' as opposed to 'try this', more so than than the actual needs or particular learning styles of particular smart or simply not dumb kids with IEPs.

The IEP report itself will, or can, serve to perpetuate negative trends or mismatched methods:

If it is not written correctly; There are industry norms and language that they WILL use and also methods or understandings that they simply WONT use.

So, it may depend on what your child's profile really is and 'is it a match', because they do not change or adjust methods (as much as they may indicate that they might simply, as implied by, 'including you in the process and meetings').

It is true, whereas many kids with IEPs are smart and have learning style differences as opposed to true delays....

...the main thrust of how many special educators are trained is still (despite what they will tell you)in some districts, or certain educators, through the view of 'slow.'

This can have a devastating effect on a kids behavior and expectations: - any - serious or ongoing disconnect between method and aptitude or learning style.

Imagine if you were lactose intolerant and your partner cooked pizza every night. You might get fidgety during dinner, to say the least.

That said, there can be dietetic causes as well. Or lack of exercise, or problems at home, and yes, poor parenting as well, mea culpa probably. Or all of the above.


Im curious, what is your experience/role with all of this?
just spoke to my wife to clarify the IEP and 504 thing
GMAN4LIFE : 11:13 am : link : Delete
She doesnt fall under the IEP qualification as she isnt in danger academically.
RE: I don't want to offend anyone
HoustonGiant : 11:18 am : link : Delete
In comment 13479348 rasbutant said:
Quote:
but i believe this can be changed with diet and exercise.

"A pill is a band-aid that you were the rest of you life."

Food is hard. Do your research and remember not all "health foods" are healthy for you.

Start off easy and work your way up to it, no sugar/high fructose corn syrup, no processed food, no gluten, no dairy. Amazing like 90% of our food has these items in it. So yes its a challenge. Also, take Vitamin D.

Again, don't want to offend, I'm not a doctor, i don't want to debate with you, this is what i believe because I've seen the result first hand.


Can be, but not if used correctly. The studies are pretty obvious that younger children don't reason or understand the goals of therapy as well, thus medications are more needed. Once the child has adequate progress and understanding, a good physician will ween them off the meds.

You just want to avoid the child taking to self-medicating.

Diet has shown to play little role in ADHD.
as a father Simpleman
idiotsavant : 11:20 am : link : Delete
I mean, partly also as a curmudgeon and partly because I do care about any other kids out there with similar situations:

Truth is, both of my two kids are in EXCELLENT schools.

We are very lucky. The younger one is smart as hell, no lacking aptitude in any academic area, high IQ, but has a bad attitude. That is on her mother and I, period.

Great, great school.

The older one, also in a great, great school, but a child who has a very mixed profile, a very early reader, seriously disgraphic, aspergers, formerly ADHD. He works hard, partly due to that I finally was financially able to get him (very late in the game, in high school) the help he (really) needed outside of school.

At various times Early Intervention tried to put him into a school for very low functioning (retarded) kids, which he is not. A school which only had autistic kids (he is now socially normal, whatever that means, more or less) also which would have been a very bad idea. E.D. school (hell no).

Currently probably a B average in a real academic school, which is an accomplishment given how wrong the methods were early on.

This discussion is more with regards to early education.

K-3rd grade or so, is when the IEP must be corrected.

Ours is still giving him cause to have to 're-prove' himself, his aptitudes, against negative assumptions each and every year in certain classes, depending on who is teaching and if they have the inclination to see the real kid not the paper trail.

The problem is that even within a very excellent school, with stellar leadership, it is still a mixed bag of educators and an incorrect IEP that the child has to re-rectify each and every year.

Go to a Functional Medicine practitioner
GiantTuff1 : 11:20 am : link : Delete
and have them analyze the root cause.

More often than not this can be significantly managed even eliminated through diet and other changes. Many people / parents lack the awareness that what their kids may be eating may be setting off significant triggers in the body that affect the brain / mind and hence behavior and focus.

Lots of researching root causes will shine some illumination on the subject. Blindly listening to allopathic doctors who are essentially good at diagnosing but terrible at curing anything, are only experts at pushing drugs that bandage and mask the symptoms, but guess what there's still a problem. I agree with how Eric handled things, listen to your gut instincts here.

Ask questions, why, why, why... follow the rabbit hole and there are things that you can do that can help. ADHD is not there out of thin air, and it's not who your kid is and what they are saddled with, there's always a reason.

I strongly suggest looking into functional dr's for guidance.
RE: ...
Beer Man : 11:22 am : link : Delete
In comment 13479274 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
The medical profession and schools have gotten lazy. As have some parents. When my son was in 4th grade, his teacher said he had ADHD. We had him tested and while he showed some signs, they said he was on the low end of whatever scale they use.

We met with the principal, teacher, teacher's assistant, and counselor - all were pushing meds. At this point, I got angry and said, "In what way are you people qualified to prescribe medication for my son?"

Their later arguments included such things as:

(1) He's doing fine in school now, but he may not be able to get in advanced placement courses in later grades. (So what was my response? You want him to take drugs so he can get better grades?!)

(2) He seems to only enjoy reading about subjects that he is interested in. (So do I. Does that make me ADHD?)

Fast forward to today. We never put him on meds. He's a solid A/B student, well-adjusted, and doing just fine.

Be careful with this stuff.
Agree. Went through the same thing with my son when he was in elementary school. Turns out he was a smart kid that was just bored because the teacher was moving too slow, ADHD was just too convenient an excuse to pump the kid full of drugs. We didn't buy into it and he turned out just fine.
Look into a program like the DORE program here in MS
FranknWeezer : 11:26 am : link : Delete
Certainly there's one, or one like this, in your area.

My son benefitted tremendously from DORE. It's a lot of work (home 'exercises' 2x a day, and it takes quite a committment from both parent and child), but so worth it. We stayed with it for a year and a half and then decided to "graduate." Our guy is totally off Focalin and has been for 2 years. His hand/eye coordination, balance and focus are all on par with his peers and he's much less fidgety than he used to be.

Can't recommend this enough as an alternative to ADHD meds.
DORE - ( New Window )
RE: as a father Simpleman
SimpleMan : 11:28 am : link : Delete
In comment 13479376 idiotsavant said:
Quote:
I mean, partly also as a curmudgeon and partly because I do care about any other kids out there with similar situations:

Truth is, both of my two kids are in EXCELLENT schools.

We are very lucky. The younger one is smart as hell, no lacking aptitude in any academic area, high IQ, but has a bad attitude. That is on her mother and I, period.

Great, great school.

The older one, also in a great, great school, but a child who has a very mixed profile, a very early reader, seriously disgraphic, aspergers, formerly ADHD. He works hard, partly due to that I finally was financially able to get him (very late in the game, in high school) the help he (really) needed outside of school.

At various times Early Intervention tried to put him into a school for very low functioning (retarded) kids, which he is not. A school which only had autistic kids (he is now socially normal, whatever that means, more or less) also which would have been a very bad idea. E.D. school (hell no).

Currently probably a B average in a real academic school, which is an accomplishment given how wrong the methods were early on.

This discussion is more with regards to early education.

K-3rd grade or so, is when the IEP must be corrected.

Ours is still giving him cause to have to 're-prove' himself, his aptitudes, against negative assumptions each and every year in certain classes, depending on who is teaching and if they have the inclination to see the real kid not the paper trail.

The problem is that even within a very excellent school, with stellar leadership, it is still a mixed bag of educators and an incorrect IEP that the child has to re-rectify each and every year.

Ok, thanks for sharing. I did think you were painting with broad brush in your first post, but agree with some of it as well. There is definitely a mixed bag of educators out there.

What is "incorrect" on the IEPs? Does the rest of the team get your input in the meetings or ignore what you have to say?
Back to the Corner
Id the above copy and paste job is too much, just say so  
Bold Ruler : Mod : 5/23/2017 11:55 am : link
and I'll clear it out.
I browsed the other thread  
AnnapolisMike : 5/23/2017 11:57 am : link
Lots of advice that is all over the map. My son is on medications for anxiety that manifests itself as OCD. My wife is also involved in Special Education so I have a little experience in both areas.

First...medications are not the only bullet at your disposal...diet and exercise can help significantly. I would work closely with your pediatrician assuming you trust them. If they think meds are part of the solution then you should seriously consider them. But YOU are the one to monitor the affects of the meds.

Regarding an IEP. Be careful with that...what you don't want to happen is for your child to get labeled or stuck in a co-taught class with low achievers if your child is a high achiever. An IEP will entitle your child to service hours from the special education department. The 504 will provide your child with accomodations like additional time taking tests which could help your child.

In any case...be careful. If your childs case is mild...I would tread lightly with medications or avoid them entirely and focus on diet and exercise. Again...you need to work closely with your pediatrician.

Good Luck
Thank you  
adevin25 : 5/23/2017 12:02 pm : link
For reinstating this thread, very interesting information across the board. The one thing I can say is be an advocate for your child or children.
thanks Bold Ruler  
GMAN4LIFE : 5/23/2017 12:03 pm : link
though i wont turn this into a "why the hell was it deleted thread" i will just say it was a good thread for me and anyone else who had this. I apologize for not putting NFT on it.
My daughter doesnt classify for IEP as she isnt in danger  
GMAN4LIFE : 5/23/2017 12:12 pm : link
academically.

Thats what i just found out asking my wife.
one thing i will ask,  
GMAN4LIFE : 5/23/2017 12:33 pm : link
why would one say be careful with the meds?

if they are good then why be careful? i get to not overdose but we wouldnt allow that.
RE: one thing i will ask,  
SimpleMan : 5/23/2017 12:37 pm : link
In comment 13479520 GMAN4LIFE said:
Quote:
why would one say be careful with the meds?

if they are good then why be careful? i get to not overdose but we wouldnt allow that.


Side effects. I have some students whose parents put them on meds, only to take them off because they gained a bunch of weight, lost appetite, or got depressed. You won't know what the side effects are on your daughter until she takes the pill.
Not sure  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 5/23/2017 1:15 pm : link
why the other thread got deleted. I have asked.
RE: one thing i will ask,  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 5/23/2017 1:17 pm : link
In comment 13479520 GMAN4LIFE said:
Quote:
why would one say be careful with the meds?

if they are good then why be careful? i get to not overdose but we wouldnt allow that.


My kids know kids who now take drugs to treat the side effects of the original drug. Many of them seem to be personality-altering drugs. It also seems to create a sense that all problems can be wiped away by taking pills.
RE: Not sure  
Mike in Long Beach : 5/23/2017 1:17 pm : link
In comment 13479601 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
why the other thread got deleted. I have asked.


Eric, gidiefor recently gave me a "time out" for criticizing BBI (that is the actual words he used in his email).

Since then I've made sure not to say anything negative about your site. But a question for you... is that what you want?
.  
Mike in Long Beach : 5/23/2017 1:26 pm : link
Quote:
I feel like it (adderall) should be available to grown ups over the counter.


As someone who just got a prescription at age 32, I disagree. Simply put, it's speed. I have to make a conscientious effort to not abuse it for an afternoon pick-me-up, and I've never been addicted to anything (except pizza) in my life. It is very, very dangerous for certain people.
Haven't read the whole thing...  
TheEvilLurker : 5/23/2017 1:27 pm : link
but my daughter was a borderline case of ADHD when she was in 1st grade. We wound up giving her some meds. It changed her personality somewhat, so we stopped with the medication.

Fast-forward to today, she is on no meds and is an honor roll student. Probably the biggest help that we did was to get her to tutoring, where she can concentrate on work and learn how to focus.

If your child is borderline like mine (not hyperactive, but distracted), maybe it makes sense to try different techniques to see what works.
RE: Haven't read the whole thing...  
GMAN4LIFE : 5/23/2017 1:32 pm : link
In comment 13479633 TheEvilLurker said:
Quote:
but my daughter was a borderline case of ADHD when she was in 1st grade. We wound up giving her some meds. It changed her personality somewhat, so we stopped with the medication.

Fast-forward to today, she is on no meds and is an honor roll student. Probably the biggest help that we did was to get her to tutoring, where she can concentrate on work and learn how to focus.

If your child is borderline like mine (not hyperactive, but distracted), maybe it makes sense to try different techniques to see what works.



thats almost where we are at. My daughter is hyperactive and easily distracted.

She is in kumon right now and that helps with the academic part. Trying to see where we can help with the other part
speaking of which.. check this shit out  
GMAN4LIFE : 5/23/2017 1:35 pm : link
Quote:
ROCKDALE COUNTY, Ga. - Two Memorial Middle School teachers will not be returning next school year, according to a school spokesperson, after a teenage girl with ADHD received a school award for “Most Likely to Not Pay Attention.”

Nicole Edwards said her 14-year-old daughter received the award at a school assembly Tuesday. Rockdale County Public Schools spokesperson Cindy Ball confirmed to FOX News on Thursday the two teachers directly involved “will not be returning to RCPS for the next school year.”

“I feel like it was very derogatory, I feel like it was humiliating and this was held as an assembly with the school,” said Nicole Edwards.

Edwards said when her 8th grader came home with the award, she learned that her daughter was initially voted as “most likely to ask a question that has already been answered” something that she thought was very inappropriate. After seeing “Most likely to not pay attention” written towards the bottom of her daughter's trophy, she became even angrier.

“You guys are calling me when you’re having problems with her in school when you’re having problems with her not paying attention or not getting it and then you give her an award for it,” said Edwards. “Why call me to discipline her, but yet you turn around and give her an award for it, it doesn't make sense.”

Rockdale County Public Schools initially issued a statement to FOX 5 on Wednesday which read in part:

“I can assure you that Rockdale County Public Schools will not condone anything that may cause student embarrassment or humiliation.”

“Someone needs to investigate and make sure it never happens to another student again,” said Edwards.

Edwards said her daughter is doing well, but as a mother, she is deeply hurt by what happened. Edwards wants future trophies to be approved by top school officials.



A few thoughts re: IEP vs. 504-plan  
Matt M. : 5/23/2017 1:37 pm : link
1) For an IEP, a lot is highly dependent on how your school and district handle special education. An IEP, these days, is not necessarily and does not have to be a death sentence to your child's education. There are more and more schools, for example, that do a good job with ICT classes.

2) 504-plans do allow for testing and some other accommodations. However, they do not allow for a lot of academic supports or scaffolding that IEP plans allow for.

3) IEP's are not isolated for Special Education. you can be a Gen. Ed. student with an IEP for related services.
RE: A few thoughts re: IEP vs. 504-plan  
GMAN4LIFE : 5/23/2017 1:39 pm : link
In comment 13479651 Matt M. said:
Quote:
1) For an IEP, a lot is highly dependent on how your school and district handle special education. An IEP, these days, is not necessarily and does not have to be a death sentence to your child's education. There are more and more schools, for example, that do a good job with ICT classes.

2) 504-plans do allow for testing and some other accommodations. However, they do not allow for a lot of academic supports or scaffolding that IEP plans allow for.

3) IEP's are not isolated for Special Education. you can be a Gen. Ed. student with an IEP for related services.



true but apparently in NJ, it does
behavioral therapy is meant for the parents and how to help  
GMAN4LIFE : 5/23/2017 2:19 pm : link
with this.

For those with ADHD kids, is there other forms of therapy for the kids?
RE: .  
pjcas18 : 5/23/2017 2:22 pm : link
In comment 13479631 Mike in Long Beach said:
Quote:


Quote:


I feel like it (adderall) should be available to grown ups over the counter.



As someone who just got a prescription at age 32, I disagree. Simply put, it's speed. I have to make a conscientious effort to not abuse it for an afternoon pick-me-up, and I've never been addicted to anything (except pizza) in my life. It is very, very dangerous for certain people.


there are dangerous and addictive things around us on a daily basis, as adults we are forced to make decisions about our involvement with them.
RE: behavioral therapy is meant for the parents and how to help  
Matt M. : 5/23/2017 2:34 pm : link
In comment 13479736 GMAN4LIFE said:
Quote:
with this.

For those with ADHD kids, is there other forms of therapy for the kids?
OT for one. there are a lot of things they can do to help students, depending on the specific needs. There are exercises, ways of sitting, stretches, etc.
RE: RE: .  
Mike in Long Beach : 5/23/2017 2:38 pm : link
In comment 13479743 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 13479631 Mike in Long Beach said:


Quote:




Quote:


I feel like it (adderall) should be available to grown ups over the counter.



As someone who just got a prescription at age 32, I disagree. Simply put, it's speed. I have to make a conscientious effort to not abuse it for an afternoon pick-me-up, and I've never been addicted to anything (except pizza) in my life. It is very, very dangerous for certain people.



there are dangerous and addictive things around us on a daily basis, as adults we are forced to make decisions about our involvement with them.


That's a fair point. I'm just saying the euphoric effects of Adderall would be, in my opinion, particularly troublesome for certain types of people with certain types of brain chemistry. I'm not here saying it should be illegal. I'm merely challenging it being a good idea to make it over-the-counter. I think it requires a physician's assessment first.

With that, I completely concede that this is not currently happening. In my case, I have to go to the doctor every month, he goes on his computer, fills it, and within 5 minutes I'm out the door. No further examination. They just want to pocket the cash for the visit.

It's a sham, for sure. I just don't think making it over-the-counter helps anybody.
I wish I'd had ADHD meds earlier  
Don Draper : 5/23/2017 3:58 pm : link
I'm 49 now, and have been taking them for ~10 years -- big, big help: less impulsive, much better able to concentrate. I used to sit in meetings and force myself to look at peoples' lips to help me focus on what they were saying.

I've done OK for myself (decent career, two Masters degrees), but I had a very hard time in college, took forever to get through, and I've often wondered what I might have accomplished if I'd had meds in college or earlier. My favorite part of taking meds is that now I don't lie in bed each night thinking "Oh, man, I wish I hadn't said this or that today"...
I'm a teacher with a ton of ADHD students...  
Dan in the Springs : 5/23/2017 4:13 pm : link
it seems the hardest time for them is 7th-8th grades when social challenges seem their hardest.

I teach a class of 7th-8th grade students, several diagnosed with ADHD and some I suspect are undiagnosed. I can only offer an anecdote.

I play Simon Says with them regularly. Practicing behavioral expectations (listen, avoid distractions, stay focused) seems to help in the very short term. Almost always I have an immediate increase in focus following a short (<5 minute) session of the game.

I think there may be some longer-term benefits from regular practice as well. I'd recommend you play it at home regularly.

My wife who teaches second grade in our small community claims the teachers can immediately tell which students worship with regularity. They feel that practicing reverence helps students create an ability to sit and focus for longer periods of time.

Not scientific at all, and I don't believe one has to go to church/temple/whatever, but it might help if you have your young daughter practice regularly sitting still and listening/focusing on something.

Best of luck to you GMAN4LIFE.
I will add a short comment.  
chiro56 : 5/24/2017 12:19 am : link
There is an epidemic of behavioral disorders in this generation. Multiple reasons. What seems to be a big step to help is diet. Read the GAPS diet book. Great first step. Cognitive therapy by a skilled practitioner.Limit smart phone use. EFT is helpful for some. Bio feedback as well. Speaking as a parent who has been through it with success , I will tell you to be patient with your child and their journey. It took my wife and I a few years to get our daughter back , but with these things and others we were able to. She is thriving and about to get her teaching degree. They wanted to use drugs which we refused. So glad we did.
RE: I will add a short comment.  
GMAN4LIFE : 5/24/2017 8:51 am : link
In comment 13480352 chiro56 said:
Quote:
There is an epidemic of behavioral disorders in this generation. Multiple reasons. What seems to be a big step to help is diet. Read the GAPS diet book. Great first step. Cognitive therapy by a skilled practitioner.Limit smart phone use. EFT is helpful for some. Bio feedback as well. Speaking as a parent who has been through it with success , I will tell you to be patient with your child and their journey. It took my wife and I a few years to get our daughter back , but with these things and others we were able to. She is thriving and about to get her teaching degree. They wanted to use drugs which we refused. So glad we did.



thanks for the comments. Its crazy as kids that have ADHD are all over the spectrum in severity. My daughter just falls below the severe part. I guess thats why we are such in limbo as of what to do
I'm not saying to medicate  
pjcas18 : 5/24/2017 8:55 am : link
your child, I've made my comments on that, but do some research, there has been no proven link between diet and ADHD.

There are many good reasons to regulate your child's diet but I wouldn't get my hope's up that adjusting their diet has any impact on this situation.
RE: RE: I will add a short comment.  
AnnapolisMike : 5/24/2017 9:13 am : link
In comment 13480450 GMAN4LIFE said:
Quote:

thanks for the comments. Its crazy as kids that have ADHD are all over the spectrum in severity. My daughter just falls below the severe part. I guess thats why we are such in limbo as of what to do


Your the only one who truly knows your childs situation. If school performance is good then I would be hesitant to do very much at all. You can try meds and see what happens and what the side effects are. Meds can be of great help....but they can have unwanted side effects. Start with a low dose and move up based on your pediatricians advice.

We decided to medicate our son for anxiety...and it GREATLY eased his issues. We work closely with our pediatrician who we think the world of. Anxiety is different than ADHD . . . But it is an example of a mental health illness that is a challenge. We recieved all kinds of advice...much against medicating. We ended up with a lower dose of medication, changed his diet and added more exercise. The combination has worked.
RE: I'm not saying to medicate  
GMAN4LIFE : 5/24/2017 9:14 am : link
In comment 13480451 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
your child, I've made my comments on that, but do some research, there has been no proven link between diet and ADHD.

There are many good reasons to regulate your child's diet but I wouldn't get my hope's up that adjusting their diet has any impact on this situation.


absolutely... red dye and other types of sugars that fall in line.

Crazy thing is when we go to the doc and she says diet doesnt really do anything. Clinical trials show it does nothing.

Its then like who do you believe haha
humans are probably incredibly diverse in  
idiotsavant : 5/24/2017 9:40 am : link
how they metabolize all foods, and what effect those foods have on each persons energy and focus probably varies greatly.

Certainly, some parents, vegetarians, or those who find it convenient (or affordable!) to feed the kids cereal and breads and bagels all day may want to consider a change.

Its very hard for a general practician doctor to see your child as a distinct individual with regards to metabolics, genetics, metabolism and thinking, focus, that is probably a fairly new and less common type of science.

Mt. Sinai has a metabolic wing I think, but even there, its hard to piece all the parts together.

Balancing the true individual vs the needs of a system with regards to this: is very similar to the designations between different status within education. Special Ed, IEP, 504 and so forth:

Human beings are simply much, much, much MUCH more diverse in mentality and processing and thinking than they are given credit for within current educational theory.

In addition, not all programs offering Masters in Education are created equal. Especially not with regards to this issue of individualizing education and balancing that against the need the system has to usher thousands of kids through stable type institutions with set staffs.

We are still fighting the remnants of factory schooling, utopian modernism and 'mental hygene', archaic types of thinking about society and the individual.
thats true...  
GMAN4LIFE : 5/24/2017 12:46 pm : link
society and regulations have changed with how students are learning these days
even the private evaluations providers  
idiotsavant : 5/24/2017 12:59 pm : link
vary greatly. (as do educators as above)

if you are having one done, find a great evaluator, there may be a six month waiting list.

a hack can ruin your kids chances. some people claim problems that the kids don't have to get into special schools (get it paid for by the state) whereas those false claims could hurt your child.

in addition, staying on task is 100% more important than in prior schooling days, thus, 'ADD' looms larger.

There was wisdom back in the days when your mid term and final determined your average. Learning is learning.

Nowadays, much more emphasis is on learning 'compliance' and 'proceedure' over and above the subjects themselves , comparatively, with predictable results for types of kids that succeed or get labelled.

whereas testing was the main grade making device back then, now ...each and every task a kid does gets into the average,

so compliant and organized kids do better than non compliant and non organized kids, sometimes completely regardless of aptitude within the particular subjects at hand.



There are massive problems with evaluation and treatment...  
manh george : 5/24/2017 7:19 pm : link
in part because ADHD comes in different forms, with differing biochemical and neurobiochemical causes--e.g., imbalances with different neurotransmitters-- and differing co-morbidities (OCD, anxiety, none). So, even good therapists can get this stuff wrong, and there is some trial and error involved.

That is also why, in typical BBI fashion, you get so many answers that imply near-absolute certainty and disagree with each other--food, medication, teaching methods, therapy methods, etc.

I know a lot about this, being 69 and having exhibited ADHD symptoms since about 5. I was diagnosed about 15 years ago, but it all fits from the day I walked into school. My father had it too, and my son has a milder version that responds extremely well to low-dose medication--mine doesn't. It is especially hereditary down the male line.

One treatment that I believe is likely to at least help in kids is mindfulness meditation--for the child and for the parent. I don't know if the linked site is a good one, but I like their description:

"Teaching mindfulness meditation is a great way for kids to develop focusing skills, resilience and well-being."

There are parent and teacher apps, btw.

I also look at the bright side: ADHD trained me to use alternate pathways and find non-traditional solutions to challenging problems--once I can focus for a while. I see evidences of this in my professional work all of the time. However, if I had known what was messing with my life a lot earlier, it would have made lots of things easier.

Good luck. Try mindfulness.
Mildfulness for children. - ( New Window )
thats a good one...  
GMAN4LIFE : 5/25/2017 8:47 am : link
.
I question how many children are truly ADHD  
JonC : 5/25/2017 8:56 am : link
versus simply children lacking self control and being children. I got ticked for lacking self control on virtually every report card prior to the age of 11, with puberty kicking in at 11.

Big difference between an adult or teen who's past the worst of puberty and has a legitimate need for medicinal assistance versus rambunctious children under age 11. imo.
RE: I question how many children are truly ADHD  
GMAN4LIFE : 5/25/2017 11:17 am : link
In comment 13481769 JonC said:
Quote:
versus simply children lacking self control and being children. I got ticked for lacking self control on virtually every report card prior to the age of 11, with puberty kicking in at 11.

Big difference between an adult or teen who's past the worst of puberty and has a legitimate need for medicinal assistance versus rambunctious children under age 11. imo.


one of the things that worries me.

but again, last night we were watching her shows and she sat there with no issues.
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