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Is Evan Engram the fastest TE in the NFL?

area junc : 5/24/2017 9:13 am
Simple question - official combine speed and quickness.

"The first-rounder, Rookie No. 1, he's got speed for days."

--Zak DeOssie, when asked about his impressions of the rookie class at OTA's.

"Engram made a great catch today right down the seam. I was like, 'OK, that's why we got him in the first round."

--Justin Pugh post-OTA.

I mention this because it appears as if his speed numbers translate to the field, and looking at his college tape he carries his pads well. Giants have never had speed merchant TE like this, even Shockey was considerably slower.
I love the pick...  
grizz299 : 5/24/2017 9:23 am : link
but I hate the fact that it's going to cost Shepard & Lewis snaps.
Gotta reconcile those two facts and will always wonder, as good as he is, if we weren't better off replacing a less worthy player than Shep.
Our two offseason free agent acquisitions were already spent on the receiving corp with Ellison and Marshall.
Having said all that, I also trust our front office and HC to make the right decisions and to also weigh the alternatives at the 23rd. spot.

Engram made a catch down the seam today  
Jimmy Googs : 5/24/2017 9:27 am : link
Nice to hear bu
Engram made a catch down the seam today  
Jimmy Googs : 5/24/2017 9:28 am : link
Nice to hear, but hopefully he can do it against Free Safeties that know what they are doing to...
RE: I love the pick...  
Heisenberg : 5/24/2017 9:29 am : link
In comment 13480474 grizz299 said:
Quote:
but I hate the fact that it's going to cost Shepard & Lewis snaps.
Gotta reconcile those two facts and will always wonder, as good as he is, if we weren't better off replacing a less worthy player than Shep.
Our two offseason free agent acquisitions were already spent on the receiving corp with Ellison and Marshall.
Having said all that, I also trust our front office and HC to make the right decisions and to also weigh the alternatives at the 23rd. spot.


I don't think he affects Sheppard much at all. He effects Will Tye a lot more. And Ellison isn't exactly a receiving corps acquisition. In four years, he's caught as many balls as Will Tye did last year.
Vernon Davis ran a faster 40 at his Combine, but that was 11 years ago  
Klaatu : 5/24/2017 9:29 am : link
Off the top of my head, can't think of another TE who was as fast.
If his speed is compared to other TEs,  
LAXin : 5/24/2017 9:32 am : link
then his size must be too, which makes him one of the shortest/smallest TEs in the league.
Relatively speaking  
Chuckstar : 5/24/2017 9:33 am : link
Shockey was a speed merchant TE out of Miami for that time. I believe his 4.58 combine number was the fastest for TE's in 2002.
Granted, game speed is different, but Shockey was outrunning some DB's his rookie year. I'm no Shockey sympathizer but it's all relative to era.
Now some 15 yrs later, Engram clocked 4.42. I don't think that's the fastest. TE Vernon Davis posted a 4.38 in 2006.
I think Dave Te said that Engram was not one of those guys...  
Klaatu : 5/24/2017 9:34 am : link
Whose speed in shorts doesn't translate to his speed on the field, in pads.
RE: I love the pick...  
GuzzaBlue : 5/24/2017 9:35 am : link
In comment 13480474 grizz299 said:
Quote:
but I hate the fact that it's going to cost Shepard & Lewis snaps.
Gotta reconcile those two facts and will always wonder, as good as he is, if we weren't better off replacing a less worthy player than Shep.
Our two offseason free agent acquisitions were already spent on the receiving corp with Ellison and Marshall.
Having said all that, I also trust our front office and HC to make the right decisions and to also weigh the alternatives at the 23rd. spot.


Engram is not replacing Shep. Yes he may cost him some snaps, but Shep will still be an important piece to the offense. Lewis may lose the most snaps barring any injuries, but that's no reason to not draft Engram. It wouldn't make sense to not draft a super receiving threat TE because of the upside of an UDFA receiver with some upside.

I like Lewis and he's a good 3-4 receiver right now, but I think Engram will put away any doubts of why we took him at 23.
Someone who calls themselves a Giants fan  
Beezer : 5/24/2017 9:36 am : link
hates that drafting Engram could cost Lewis snaps?

Is that a serious thing?
I'm not the most savvy X's and O's guy here ...  
Beezer : 5/24/2017 9:40 am : link
... but it doesn't take a lot of football knowledge to see that adding Engram to the fray changes everything. He's a very unique type of player. We have a terrific TE now who can block (Ellison), we have another guy who's kind of a middling receiver and blocker (Tye), and you add Engram, whose potential we really can't even see just yet.

Everything is speculation at this point, but wow, the potential to give opposing DCs a weekly headache is immense!
RE: Someone who calls themselves a Giants fan  
Klaatu : 5/24/2017 9:40 am : link
In comment 13480492 Beezer said:
Quote:
hates that drafting Engram could cost Lewis snaps?

Is that a serious thing?


I'm worried that Marshall and Engram may keep Darius Powe from making the final 53.

Does that make me a bad person?
No.  
Beezer : 5/24/2017 9:43 am : link
Considering Powe is your second cousin twice removed on your Mom's side.

Family first!
RE: I love the pick...  
section125 : 5/24/2017 9:45 am : link
In comment 13480474 grizz299 said:
Quote:
but I hate the fact that it's going to cost Shepard & Lewis snaps.


#1 - Any snaps Lewis loses will be because of Marshall, not Engram. Will Tye will lose snaps to Engram.

#2 - Even if Lewis lost snaps to Engram, why does it bother you that the #5 or #6 WR loses snaps to The #1 TE who is faster and a bigger threat?

#3) Shepard won't lose many snaps to Engram, but even if he does, if it creates a better offense why should that bother you?
I wonder whether  
lugnut : 5/24/2017 9:49 am : link
the sheer abundance of receiving talent is going to be the thing -- more than any other -- that suppresses everyone's numbers. Not enough balls, plays to go around. That's a great problem to have.
RE: I wonder whether  
GuzzaBlue : 5/24/2017 9:52 am : link
In comment 13480508 lugnut said:
Quote:
the sheer abundance of receiving talent is going to be the thing -- more than any other -- that suppresses everyone's numbers. Not enough balls, plays to go around. That's a great problem to have.


Exactly! Not only is it a great problem to have, but who cares, right. If the offense is that much better, I don't care who gets the catches. If the numbers are suppressed individually and not in totality then that is a good sign.
if Lewis is your 3rd WR  
giants#1 : 5/24/2017 9:56 am : link
your WRs lack depth. He's got untapped upside, but he looked more like a 5th WR than a 4th WR in his limited action last year.

Engram will likely cut into the snaps for Shepard, Marshall, and Ellison while potentially pushing either Tye or Adams off the roster. But based on his scouting reports, he's (potentially) exactly what this offense needs...someone to get down the seam and pressure the safeties. And football is a game of matchups and whether he's lined up in the slot or inline, he should create matchup problems for Ds. He and BM will be welcome additions in that regard as Beckham was really the only matchup problem on the offense last year.

RE: I love the pick...  
blueblood : 5/24/2017 10:02 am : link
In comment 13480474 grizz299 said:
Quote:
but I hate the fact that it's going to cost Shepard & Lewis snaps.
Gotta reconcile those two facts and will always wonder, as good as he is, if we weren't better off replacing a less worthy player than Shep.
Our two offseason free agent acquisitions were already spent on the receiving corp with Ellison and Marshall.
Having said all that, I also trust our front office and HC to make the right decisions and to also weigh the alternatives at the 23rd. spot.


Again.. people keep getting this wrong.. first of all Lewis has seven catches last year..

Shepard is not going to be the issue here. They will be able to play multiple personnel packages of which Shepard will be in many of them.

The person who its going to cost snaps is Will Tye who played in 65% of the offensive snaps last year. Engram might even cost him his job.

How is Lewis our #3 WR?  
Jimmy Googs : 5/24/2017 10:04 am : link
??
Im going to bring this up again to about Shepard  
blueblood : 5/24/2017 10:14 am : link
Its not about Shepard

Giants played 1062 snaps on offense last year.

Will Tye played 682 of those snaps 64.12%...

think bout that for a second.. Will Tye played 65% of the Giants offensive snap counts..

Would you rather have Will Tye out there 65% of the time.. or Evan Engram out there 65% of the time??

Why is it when Green Bay can trot out Jordy Nelson and Devante Adams. and Randall Cobb and Jared Cook and have Eddy Lacey AND Ty Montgomery we scream about their diversity on offense..

but when its the Giants.. its.. OH NO there arent enough football to go around..

Its like we dont understand that football is about creating mismatches
Vernon Davis  
area junc : 5/24/2017 10:19 am : link
is a good call. However, he got that "looks like Tarzan, plays like Jane" stigma. (He's soft on the inside.)

Engram, on the other hand, looks to be ultra-aggressive, hard-nosed football player on the field. His pure speed combined with his aggressiveness/fearlessness over the middle - I think we're in for something special that may catch the league off guard.

Even Jordan Reed - the guy Engram is most often compared to - ran 4.72 with a 1.66 10 split. (And surprise, surprise: Reed was hurt at the Combine.)

Engram? 4.42 with a 1.56. And does not come with any of the "soft" or "injury prone" labels other speedy TE's have.

As far as size? He's not big, but he's not small either. (He's almost an inch taller than Reed and also out-benched him.) He would be a poor fit in the TC/KG offense but in a West Coast Offense? His size is not a concern.
Jesus Christ..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/24/2017 10:25 am : link
here we go with the calling of players "soft" again.

Remember when you called Carlos Emmons a coward and it turned out he had a separated shoulder? Probably not, because you were too busy making up more faux insider shit.

I bet if you tried to steamroll Vernon Davis at home plate, he'd jam your rectum right up your fucking esophagus.
Engram is the fastest guy in shorts  
blueblood : 5/24/2017 10:26 am : link
now how he uses that speed with pads and in an actual game are two different things. Can he get in and out of his breaks at that speed? Is he quick as well as fast.. Is he just straight line speed? Does he have the quick twitch?
Ideally Engram never comes off the field  
Rjanyg : 5/24/2017 10:28 am : link
The guy was drafted to bring balance and big play ability. When we are in 11 personnel, You will have 13, 15, 87, 88 and 28 on the field. 12 personnel you will have 13, 15, 88, 85 and 28. 20 Personnel you will have 13, 15, 87, 88 and 85. Goalline you will probably have 15, 88, 85, 89 and 30.

Engram is going to make this offense much more unpredictable since he can split out like a WR or play in line or play the slot. If Shepard or Lewis lose playing time because of it so be it.

The main problem with the offense last year was too much 11 personnel and no imagination. This year 11 personnel will be better but more importantly so will all the other formations.

my daughter might call the concern  
Dr. D : 5/24/2017 10:39 am : link
about UDFA Lewis losing snaps to a bigger faster #1 stud like Engram

cra-cra

Kind of like being concerned Thabiti Davis might lose snaps because the Giants drafted a guy name Shockey.
New Age TE  
JimNY56 : 5/24/2017 10:44 am : link
All reports I remember say he played with both speed and quickness. He is a new age TE, like Reed. I believe Engram is the fastest TE in the NFL now. Hell, he among the fastest WR's too!
Great pick.
Eli tends to go where the match up or read is  
rasbutant : 5/24/2017 10:46 am : link
He isn't know for forcing plays to one player. Though it was a point of emphasis with Odell. Reading between the lines, they actually had to sit down and talk to him about forcing the ball to Odell, at least that's my take from it.

How great is it that now, where ever the match up is there is a play-maker on the other end of it. That's impressive.
It may not be the same posters....  
njm : 5/24/2017 10:50 am : link
but I'm having a little trouble reconciling the concern with Shepard missing snaps with the fairly wide spread advocacy before the draft for taking another WR in the 1st.
Finally ELI  
TMS : 5/24/2017 10:53 am : link
has a two big recievers who can run routes with speed and fight for the ball in the air. Shades of two Plaxicos out there at the same time with OBJ, Sheppard and whoever is scary. Now can we keep ELI upright with blocking and a run game ? Have to optimistic right now. We will see.
Vernon Davis was faster when he came into the league,  
Ira : 5/24/2017 11:03 am : link
but probably isn't now. I don't think Kelce ran that fast and he's about as fast as any te. But, to be fair, he's much bigger than Engram.
RE: I love the pick...  
mavric : 5/24/2017 11:08 am : link
In comment 13480474 grizz299 said:
Quote:
but I hate the fact that it's going to cost Shepard & Lewis snaps.
Gotta reconcile those two facts and will always wonder, as good as he is, if we weren't better off replacing a less worthy player than Shep.
Our two offseason free agent acquisitions were already spent on the receiving corp with Ellison and Marshall.
Having said all that, I also trust our front office and HC to make the right decisions and to also weigh the alternatives at the 23rd. spot.


It's a team sport not a stage for individuals to build a personal statistical database. While it's true that when you have more options, individual players will will be forced to share opportunities. And ultimately, that is for the good of the team.

By having a plethora of good receivers, all of them will end up sitting more than if they are the only player (or one of a couple players) on the team who can move the ball. Having as many receivers as the Giants have means every receiver including OBJ, Marshall, Shepard, etc., will get less opportunities. But that is good. Because that way they'll be better rested and taking less punishment to the body and less prone to injury and will probably work harder so that when they are targeted, they will do everything in their power to make the play.

It's about the team - not individuals. I'd rather have another Lombardi trophy added to the showcase then have a couple of future HOF players while never bringing home the trophy (the reason we play the game).
Shepard, Cruz and Tye had 244 passes thrown their way  
BillT : 5/24/2017 11:19 am : link
I think there are enough touches to keep Shepard busy even with Marshall and Engram taking 2 of those 3 spots.
Im posting this from an old thread about personnel groupings  
blueblood : 5/24/2017 11:43 am : link
And it relates to all the stuff about how Engram is going to cost Shepard snaps.. which in reality it WILL NOT.. WIll Tye and Donnell played 900 snaps last year.. the Giants offense I think played bewteen 1000-1100 total snaps. That means either Will Tye or Donnell was on the field for 81% of the total snaps.. The issue isnt Shepard losing snaps.. Its TYE getting less and DONNELL not get any ( because he is gone )

And its like everyone has forgotten that Adams is a TE on the team as well. The Giants SHOULD be very multiple on offense this year.. able to utilize almost any package and formation they want to.


Quote:


11 personnel

its used by the league over 50 percent of the time.. Now who is IN that personnel.. and whether they switch in an OUT of that personnel or formation is another issue entirely..

Just looking at a post on Personnel groupings and thinking about the Giants. It seems that 11 Personnel is the dominant package for NFL teams who play out of it more than 50% of the time.

I think the issue with the Giants is WHO makes up that group. They have the flexibility to utilize different players in that group and now they have the ability to
"be Multiple" in terms of which formation or set they are in.

For example I was looking and thinking..

They could come out in a 12 Personnel package.. One RB, 2 TE's and 2 WR's with Perkins, Ellison, Marshall, OBJ, Engram. Then they could flex Engram out wide into an 11 Personnel package with Engram being a WR. They could also do the reverse.

They can easily use 00, 01, 02(a favorite of the Patriots when they had Hernandez), 10, 11, 12, even 13 which idiotsavant has pointed out several times

They could use a 20 package with 3 WR's and 2 RB's with Perkins and Vereen on the field could become a 10 with Vereen being used as a WR.. Or they could put Engram in the backfield as an Hback with Perkins OR Vereen. They could put Engram and Vereen in the backfield and then switch to either a 00 or Five WR's with Engram and Vereen becoming receivers.. OR they go to a 10 with Vereen staying in at RB and Engram being the 4th WR

Because of the personnel they should be able to show a defense multiple looks and multiple formation and better disguise what they are doing or change to one formation or another to potentially exploit a defense.

This is also why people worrying about Engram cutting into Shepard's snaps is somewhat overblown. There are at least 6 of these formations that utilize a minimum of 3 receivers. And with Engram being a Move TE or Hback (he has lined up in the backfield in college) both Engram and Shepard can be on the field at the same time in at least 4 of these formations..

It will be interesting to see what McAdoo does with the tools he has now..
Engram will not play many snaps  
Carl in CT : 5/24/2017 12:10 pm : link
In your standard TE formation. Slot, HBack yes. Ellison and Tye will.
If the addition of Engram  
ChicagoMarty : 5/24/2017 12:11 pm : link
and Marshall improves our third down conversion rate then there will be an increase in total Offensive plays for the O .

An increase in Offensive plays well may lead to more snaps for Shephard as well as everyone else on the O
RE: Engram will not play many snaps  
Klaatu : 5/24/2017 12:57 pm : link
In comment 13480668 Carl in CT said:
Quote:
In your standard TE formation. Slot, HBack yes. Ellison and Tye will.


Don't bet on it.
What does Trent Baalke think?  
Greg from LI : 5/24/2017 12:58 pm : link
.
RE: Someone who calls themselves a Giants fan  
LauderdaleMatty : 5/24/2017 1:36 pm : link
In comment 13480492 Beezer said:
Quote:
hates that drafting Engram could cost Lewis snaps?

Is that a serious thing?


Yes. Snap counts are big these days. Points scored and winning are over rated if you don't win your Fantasy League if you pick Sheppard
Soft Vernon Davis >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  
B in ALB : 5/24/2017 1:41 pm : link
Bitch Ass Dupe Thomas

uh oh, now someone wants a word with you, Thomas  
Greg from LI : 5/24/2017 1:52 pm : link
You have caused confusion and delay!

Forget big vs small  
area junc : 5/24/2017 2:48 pm : link
Is there an H-back who's been this fast? Any form of TE?

Davis is the only one we've come up woth and he was over 10 years ago!
Remember what McAdoo said?  
area junc : 5/24/2017 2:53 pm : link
"Stats are for losers."

And Shepard wasnt good enough last year to care about less snaps either.

And another thing: Rhett got good $$$ but hes not exactly paid as an everydown player. Hes paid as a solid role player.

Who's to say Shepard won't get a much a higher YPC?  
adamg : 5/24/2017 7:02 pm : link
As in: Engram can take the dump offs for first down, while Shep is allowed to run routes down the field more and get more yards before the catch? I remember Shep wanted more deep opportunities last year. This is a perfect solution for him. He can go deep with a viable TE drawing some coverage underneath.

Also, looking at WAS snap counts, the receiver numbers weren't very affected by either Reed or Davis. The WR snap % was very similar between 2015 and 2016, especially among the starters, while the TE snap % went up for their receiving TEs.
RE: What does Trent Baalke think?  
arcarsenal : 5/24/2017 7:07 pm : link
In comment 13480732 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
.


He thinks a deal is IMMINENT.
Diesel 10  
B in ALB : 5/24/2017 7:13 pm : link
is definitely the meanest and best blocking TE in the league.

Too bad Sodor has him locked up for 5 more years.

The thing to keep in mind  
csh2z : 5/24/2017 7:20 pm : link
is, with the much improved offense there will be fewer three & outs. Longer offensive drives = more offensive plays than last year. I'm sure everybody will get plenty of opportunities to catch the football.
He's super fast...  
Dan in the Springs : 5/24/2017 7:25 pm : link
we know that - probably the fastest at the position in the league.

What else seems great is that he appears to be pretty natural as a receiver as well. Good hands-catcher, pretty good route runner, adjusts his running well (kind of the anti-Donnell).

What will limit his snap count is how quickly he picks up the offense. Hearing about him diving into the playbook with uber-worker Webb is good news. Also, Mayock calling him "probably the cleanest player in the draft" is a bright sign as well.

Future looks bright for this young rookie. Lots of reasons for Giants fans to be optimistic about him.
he's also one of the fasted WRs in the NFL  
annexOPR : 5/24/2017 8:50 pm : link
so ... that's cool.
should be a interesting first game to see how  
River : 5/24/2017 9:10 pm : link
Dallas handles him. Will they try a LB at first or Even a Safety?
He'll forever be compared  
Manny in CA : 5/24/2017 11:09 pm : link

To Njoku, especially if he does well. Is tue that Njoku cancelled his visit to the Giants ? That whole incident remains a mystery.
The only question I have about Engram  
chopperhatch : 5/25/2017 4:55 pm : link
Is whether or not he will (or if the Giants want him to grow) into an actual TE. I personally think he can add at least 10 lbs and probably 15-18 lbs while still being very dynamic in the pass game. He CAN block. This idea that we drafted a big WR to play TE is just not fair. He is aggressive as a run blocker, and seems strong enough to at least be adequate inline in that regard. We dont need him to pass pro, but adding an extra 10 would put him at 245 and that is plenty big for a TE with speed. I just think if we want to "move him around", having him play on the line as a run blocker is a very deceptive look from us
Think Engrams snaps will depend on what ELI  
TMS : 5/28/2017 8:16 pm : link
does early on. He has preferred TEs and big possession receivers in the past. He makes the decisions where the ball goes, not anybody else. Could be a big rookie year for this kid if he is as advertised.
RE: RE: Engram will not play many snaps  
djm : 5/28/2017 8:32 pm : link
In comment 13480729 Klaatu said:
Quote:
In comment 13480668 Carl in CT said:


Quote:


In your standard TE formation. Slot, HBack yes. Ellison and Tye will.



Don't bet on it.


Really don't bet on it. Tye isn't playing over engram and/or Ellison.
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