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Should all players boycott “voluntary” offseason workouts?

Gary from The East End : Admin : 5/25/2017 9:42 am
An interesting article from Mike Florio at PFT.

As part of the CBA, almost all of the NFL offseason is voluntary, but in a league where just about anyone can be cut at any time, voluntary is pretty much mandatory for all except high value players like OBJ.

Quote:
Currently, the players have every right to band together and say, “What is it worth to you to get us to show up for offseason workouts?” They haven’t, and chances are they won’t. Which counts as a double win for the always-winning billionaires who own the teams.

First, the owners benefit from free work. Second, the lack of willingness of the players to stay away from offseason workouts that don’t result in the forfeiture of game checks makes it even less likely that players will ever hold firm during a lockout or a strike. (One of which may be less than four years away.)

The players can change that whenever they want. They can do it right now. The fact that they haven’t, and the strong likelihood that they never will, shows that the players will never match the will of the owners when it comes to getting the best possible deal that they can

Link - ( New Window )
Most of us work a whole year for our pay and most of us don't  
Marty in Albany : 5/25/2017 10:00 am : link
get the high salaries of football players. I don't begrudge the players their time off, but I can see management's desire to keep their heads in the game.

IMO the real issue is player safety. These "workouts" whether voluntary or coerced, are not the two-a-days of the past. There is little contact and little danger of injuries compared to the scrimmages of the past. I see this as a big benefit to the players and not as billionaire owners running a sweatshop that torments the life out of helpless millionaires and millionaire wannabees.
yes, and no training camp too. and they can pick the rosters by PFF  
Victor in CT : 5/25/2017 10:02 am : link
ratings and just start the season without practice.
RE: Most of us work a whole year for our pay and most of us don't  
Big Blue '56 : 5/25/2017 10:02 am : link
In comment 13481898 Marty in Albany said:
Quote:
get the high salaries of football players. I don't begrudge the players their time off, but I can see management's desire to keep their heads in the game.

IMO the real issue is player safety. These "workouts" whether voluntary or coerced, are not the two-a-days of the past. There is little contact and little danger of injuries compared to the scrimmages of the past. I see this as a big benefit to the players and not as billionaire owners running a sweatshop that torments the life out of helpless millionaires and millionaire wannabees.


Except Marty how many countless times have we read about non-contact injuries occurring?
Great  
Jay on the Island : 5/25/2017 10:04 am : link
first they already limited the amount of number of practices that each team has per year now Florio is suggesting that players skip OTA's?
Yes  
micky : 5/25/2017 10:07 am : link
It's become ridiculous. They workout on their own. And for established, superstars, etc..they shouldn't have to do anything..in fact, they should cut down training camp, since most players feel they're ready and talented enough, and doing their own Workouts, plus risk of injuring themselves unnecessarily in training camp, and preseason games, just co.eback and start the week of opening day games.

That's the messagesgetting from players and everyone these days
I like the current approach  
Ron Johnson 30 : 5/25/2017 10:21 am : link
because it's fun reading fans over the top comments
With due respect to a good poster in Marty  
Deej : 5/25/2017 10:34 am : link
Nothing dumber than comparing most people's at will office job to a NFLer's CBA-covered, short term, hyper performance based and high risk job.

If you want your Spring off like NFLers, put on a pair of cleats.
A lot of fans really in favor of getting players to work for free.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/25/2017 10:38 am : link
.
RE: Most of us work a whole year for our pay and most of us don't  
arcarsenal : 5/25/2017 10:45 am : link
In comment 13481898 Marty in Albany said:
Quote:
get the high salaries of football players. I don't begrudge the players their time off, but I can see management's desire to keep their heads in the game.

IMO the real issue is player safety. These "workouts" whether voluntary or coerced, are not the two-a-days of the past. There is little contact and little danger of injuries compared to the scrimmages of the past. I see this as a big benefit to the players and not as billionaire owners running a sweatshop that torments the life out of helpless millionaires and millionaire wannabees.


I'm going to assume your line of work doesn't put you at risk for concussions, torn ligaments, or broken bones.

You're comparing apples to oranges.
Thoughts  
njm : 5/25/2017 10:49 am : link
The NFL minimum salary for rookies is $465k for 2017, and goes up to $1 mil for more experienced players. I think it's hardly slave labor to have them show up for offseason workouts, voluntary or involuntary, given that pay scale.

My concern is for those who attend and don't end up on an NFL roster, particularly with regards to injury. Perhaps that can be solved by requiring the NFL to provide health insurance for any player participating on activities organized by the team.

And given that salary scale there might be some benefit to establish mandatory financial planning seminars as part of OTAs. Even a player who only lasts in the league for 2 years should be able to save enough to either finish college or transition to life after football at those salaries. Unfortunately, many do not.
RE: RE: Most of us work a whole year for our pay and most of us don't  
Deej : 5/25/2017 10:50 am : link
In comment 13481980 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
In comment 13481898 Marty in Albany said:


Quote:


get the high salaries of football players. I don't begrudge the players their time off, but I can see management's desire to keep their heads in the game.

IMO the real issue is player safety. These "workouts" whether voluntary or coerced, are not the two-a-days of the past. There is little contact and little danger of injuries compared to the scrimmages of the past. I see this as a big benefit to the players and not as billionaire owners running a sweatshop that torments the life out of helpless millionaires and millionaire wannabees.



I'm going to assume your line of work doesn't put you at risk for concussions, torn ligaments, or broken bones.

You're comparing apples to oranges.


His line of work also isnt subject to an industry-wide CBA with work rules, that has him working on a forced below-market contract leaving him so underpaid that his side gig (which probably takes 100 hours a year at most) pays him more, and gives him more income certainty.
I think the OTA's are stupid  
larryflower37 : 5/25/2017 10:57 am : link
Just start with training camp and let the other nonsense go.
The NFL calendar is a joke right now
RE: RE: RE: Most of us work a whole year for our pay and most of us don't  
njm : 5/25/2017 11:01 am : link
In comment 13481987 Deej said:
Quote:
In comment 13481980 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


In comment 13481898 Marty in Albany said:


Quote:


get the high salaries of football players. I don't begrudge the players their time off, but I can see management's desire to keep their heads in the game.

IMO the real issue is player safety. These "workouts" whether voluntary or coerced, are not the two-a-days of the past. There is little contact and little danger of injuries compared to the scrimmages of the past. I see this as a big benefit to the players and not as billionaire owners running a sweatshop that torments the life out of helpless millionaires and millionaire wannabees.



I'm going to assume your line of work doesn't put you at risk for concussions, torn ligaments, or broken bones.

You're comparing apples to oranges.



His line of work also isnt subject to an industry-wide CBA with work rules, that has him working on a forced below-market contract leaving him so underpaid that his side gig (which probably takes 100 hours a year at most) pays him more, and gives him more income certainty.


Crying poverty just doesn't fly in this situation, at least for those ending up on a roster.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Most of us work a whole year for our pay and most of us don't  
Deej : 5/25/2017 11:03 am : link
In comment 13482004 njm said:
Quote:
In comment 13481987 Deej said:


Quote:


In comment 13481980 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


In comment 13481898 Marty in Albany said:


Quote:


get the high salaries of football players. I don't begrudge the players their time off, but I can see management's desire to keep their heads in the game.

IMO the real issue is player safety. These "workouts" whether voluntary or coerced, are not the two-a-days of the past. There is little contact and little danger of injuries compared to the scrimmages of the past. I see this as a big benefit to the players and not as billionaire owners running a sweatshop that torments the life out of helpless millionaires and millionaire wannabees.



I'm going to assume your line of work doesn't put you at risk for concussions, torn ligaments, or broken bones.

You're comparing apples to oranges.



His line of work also isnt subject to an industry-wide CBA with work rules, that has him working on a forced below-market contract leaving him so underpaid that his side gig (which probably takes 100 hours a year at most) pays him more, and gives him more income certainty.



Crying poverty just doesn't fly in this situation, at least for those ending up on a roster.


Not crying poverty. He has a job with work rules. Rules that he did not negotiate. Those rules say that this work is voluntary. So he doesnt have to come.
It's not about crying poverty  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/25/2017 11:05 am : link
It's really more about underlying resentment to people who make a certain amount of money. Whether they make hundreds of thousands, or millions, or 52k, people shouldn't be shamed for not working for free.
Since the CBA  
area junc : 5/25/2017 11:11 am : link
cut down on practice time OTA's should be mandatory
RE: Since the CBA  
Deej : 5/25/2017 11:12 am : link
In comment 13482014 area junc said:
Quote:
cut down on practice time OTA's should be mandatory


The CBA is negotiated. Owners traded one thing for another.
The players have their union to thank for it.  
jcn56 : 5/25/2017 11:14 am : link
This stupid concept of 'voluntary', when the union knows full well that all but their superstars are required to attend is an unfair class system that they agreed to. Should have just accepted some more mandatory OTAs and left it at that.
RE: RE: Most of us work a whole year for our pay and most of us don't  
area junc : 5/25/2017 11:17 am : link
In comment 13481980 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
In comment 13481898 Marty in Albany said:


Quote:


get the high salaries of football players. I don't begrudge the players their time off, but I can see management's desire to keep their heads in the game.

IMO the real issue is player safety. These "workouts" whether voluntary or coerced, are not the two-a-days of the past. There is little contact and little danger of injuries compared to the scrimmages of the past. I see this as a big benefit to the players and not as billionaire owners running a sweatshop that torments the life out of helpless millionaires and millionaire wannabees.



I'm going to assume your line of work doesn't put you at risk for concussions, torn ligaments, or broken bones.

Ridiculous. These guys know what they're signing up for. You cant take big $$$ and then turn around and say you dont want to assume the risk. Does a construction worker get to skip work because he doesnt want to inhale harmful dust?

You're comparing apples to oranges.
RE: Since the CBA  
njm : 5/25/2017 11:19 am : link
In comment 13482014 area junc said:
Quote:
cut down on practice time OTA's should be mandatory


That's probably the beat way to solve it. For anyone making a roster (and $1.8 mil for the season) the reality is that they are not working for free. Making it mandatory would remove the fiction. And as I said above, I could see provisions to protect those that don't make rosters.
ah how i miss the days of two a days at Albany  
gtt350 : 5/25/2017 11:53 am : link
,
No  
LCtheINTMachine : 5/25/2017 12:02 pm : link
When your boss asks you to do something, you do it. Whether you get paid or not. Or you run the risk of getting your ass fired. That's how it works in the real world. That's what employees have done for years and that's how the economy works in this country.

Do your job or perish.
RE: No  
njm : 5/25/2017 12:07 pm : link
In comment 13482108 LCtheINTMachine said:
Quote:
When your boss asks you to do something, you do it. Whether you get paid or not. Or you run the risk of getting your ass fired. That's how it works in the real world. That's what employees have done for years and that's how the economy works in this country.

Do your job or perish.


Somewhere between this and a $1.8 million dollar player getting slave wages because of "voluntary" OTAs is probably where things should be.
RE: RE: RE: Most of us work a whole year for our pay and most of us don't  
arcarsenal : 5/25/2017 12:10 pm : link
In comment 13482025 area junc said:
Quote:
In comment 13481980 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


In comment 13481898 Marty in Albany said:


Quote:


get the high salaries of football players. I don't begrudge the players their time off, but I can see management's desire to keep their heads in the game.

IMO the real issue is player safety. These "workouts" whether voluntary or coerced, are not the two-a-days of the past. There is little contact and little danger of injuries compared to the scrimmages of the past. I see this as a big benefit to the players and not as billionaire owners running a sweatshop that torments the life out of helpless millionaires and millionaire wannabees.



I'm going to assume your line of work doesn't put you at risk for concussions, torn ligaments, or broken bones.

Ridiculous. These guys know what they're signing up for. You cant take big $$$ and then turn around and say you dont want to assume the risk. Does a construction worker get to skip work because he doesnt want to inhale harmful dust?

You're comparing apples to oranges.



Terrible comparison.

You're comparing construction work to voluntary OTA's in May?

Give me a fucking break.
RE: No  
ajr2456 : 5/25/2017 12:12 pm : link
In comment 13482108 LCtheINTMachine said:
Quote:
When your boss asks you to do something, you do it. Whether you get paid or not. Or you run the risk of getting your ass fired. That's how it works in the real world. That's what employees have done for years and that's how the economy works in this country.

Do your job or perish.


Unless your job has negotiated rules that say you don't have to do something for free.

Also the NFL isn't comparable to a regular job. We should give them holidays off then if we're going to compare it to a 9-5.
RE: It's not about crying poverty  
Gary from The East End : Admin : 5/25/2017 12:17 pm : link
In comment 13482008 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
It's really more about underlying resentment to people who make a certain amount of money.


It always funny to me how people feel that way about the men who put their bodies on the line for our entertainment and not about the ultra-wealthy people who own the teams.

It's the people who get all bent out of shape when workers who make our food or clean our toilets want a living wage, but CEOs who make 7, 8 or 9 figures barely merit a shrug.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Most of us work a whole year for our pay and most of us don't  
area junc : 5/25/2017 12:23 pm : link
In comment 13482123 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
In comment 13482025 area junc said:


Quote:


In comment 13481980 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


In comment 13481898 Marty in Albany said:


Quote:


get the high salaries of football players. I don't begrudge the players their time off, but I can see management's desire to keep their heads in the game.

IMO the real issue is player safety. These "workouts" whether voluntary or coerced, are not the two-a-days of the past. There is little contact and little danger of injuries compared to the scrimmages of the past. I see this as a big benefit to the players and not as billionaire owners running a sweatshop that torments the life out of helpless millionaires and millionaire wannabees.



I'm going to assume your line of work doesn't put you at risk for concussions, torn ligaments, or broken bones.

Ridiculous. These guys know what they're signing up for. You cant take big $$$ and then turn around and say you dont want to assume the risk. Does a construction worker get to skip work because he doesnt want to inhale harmful dust?

You're comparing apples to oranges.





Terrible comparison.

You're comparing construction work to voluntary OTA's in May?

Give me a fucking break.


No it isn't a terrible comparison. You're saying they shouldn't have to do it because it's dangerous. That's the argument you laid out.

Lots of work - including construction - is dangerous to both ST and LT health.
The point is  
area junc : 5/25/2017 12:23 pm : link
you don't get paid/rewarded without doing the work/assuming the risk.
.  
arcarsenal : 5/25/2017 12:38 pm : link
There's no equivalent of OTA's in construction work. That's why it's a stupid comparison.

It would be the equivalent of passing on an optional training seminar where you could potentially hurt yourself and not be able to do the real work that gets you paid.

Beckham isn't obligated to attend or participate in OTA's. He's obligated to attend training camp, practices, and perform well on Sundays. All of which he's been doing since the day he became a Giant.

Some of you guys need to deal with the fact that athletes can do what they consider to be in their best interest.
couple things  
giants#1 : 5/25/2017 12:41 pm : link
1) Don't some players get paid for attending? Isn't that what a 'workout bonus' is for?

2) I believe you can't just straight cut injured players. So if you're the 90th man on the roster, you're probably better off pulling a hammy and getting an injury settlement than just getting waived (see Ishaq) when they find another bottom roster guy.

3) re: Gary - can't people take issues with both sides of a labor dispute?
RE: .  
giants#1 : 5/25/2017 12:44 pm : link
In comment 13482187 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
There's no equivalent of OTA's in construction work. That's why it's a stupid comparison.

It would be the equivalent of passing on an optional training seminar where you could potentially hurt yourself and not be able to do the real work that gets you paid.

Beckham isn't obligated to attend or participate in OTA's. He's obligated to attend training camp, practices, and perform well on Sundays. All of which he's been doing since the day he became a Giant.

Some of you guys need to deal with the fact that athletes can do what they consider to be in their best interest.


Construction workers don't have 'voluntary' skyscraper welding training in the middle of the winter to attend?

And the most important thing for Beckham right now is to stay in shape. It's not like: a) they have a new offense/QB or b) he's lounging on his sofa all day. By all accounts he's still work his a$$ off and if he comes to camp in better mental shape this way, then I'm all for it.
RE: couple things  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/25/2017 12:47 pm : link
In comment 13482201 giants#1 said:
Quote:
1) Don't some players get paid for attending? Isn't that what a 'workout bonus' is for?

2) I believe you can't just straight cut injured players. So if you're the 90th man on the roster, you're probably better off pulling a hammy and getting an injury settlement than just getting waived (see Ishaq) when they find another bottom roster guy.

3) re: Gary - can't people take issues with both sides of a labor dispute?


Some players do get workout bonuses. Most don't. It's usually reserved for veteran free agent contracts. Typically it's just a way to squeeze more guaranteed money into contracts. You show up to offseason weightlifting and get an extra couple hundred k. Example: JPP gets an extra 250k a year in workout bonuses. DRC gets 20 thousand a year. Eli takes home 500k.

The bottom two thirds of rosters do not.
You made the argument arcarsenal.  
area junc : 5/25/2017 12:50 pm : link
Its OK to skip because its dangerous. Thats BS.

Had you said its OK to skip because it's voluntary, no arguments.
A lot of posters may not remember how long and how brutal  
Marty in Albany : 5/25/2017 12:52 pm : link
training camps used to be. They do not remember how out of shape players were and how many serious injuries took place because of those two factors. They may not remember how top players didn't just skip OTAs, they skipped training camp altogether to hold out for better contracts.

The current system, regardless of whether it is compulsory for all but star players is much less risky for injuries and much better for teaching new players and getting vets into better football shape (regardless of what they do on their own).

This system is IMO, very beneficial to the players compared to what they had before. I think the suggestion of a "boycott" is needless "pot stirring" by a writer who has no real football news. Such a boycott would result in injuries and diminish the chances of new players who want to make the roster.

I count 22 Giants with workout bonuses  
giants#1 : 5/25/2017 12:53 pm : link
with workout bonuses. Now the size is dependent on the players ability, but they look fairly common to me.

Most notable players without them are those on rookie deals (the CBA is pretty brutal to rookie deals): Pugh, Flowers, Apple, Beckham, Kennard, Collins, Richburg, Shepard, Tomlinson, Berhe, etc.

Excluding those on rookie deals, you're probably looking at ~1/3 of the remaining players on the 90 man roster have workout bonuses.

Notably, Vernon is giving up a chunk of his $250k by skipping them (unless it's excused).
Link - ( New Window )
RE: You made the argument arcarsenal.  
arcarsenal : 5/25/2017 12:54 pm : link
In comment 13482226 area junc said:
Quote:
Its OK to skip because its dangerous. Thats BS.

Had you said its OK to skip because it's voluntary, no arguments.


It's not BS - the voluntary part is exactly why there's an argument to be made that avoiding the potential risk is well within a players rights.

He's been training anyway. It's not like the guy is sitting around doing nothing. He'll be at camp in a couple months, he'll be on the field in Dallas on September 10th.

It's much ado about nothing.
The rookies are the ones who have the most to gain by attending  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/25/2017 12:58 pm : link
and also the most to lose if they blew an ACL or, like Teddy Bridgewater, blew an entire knee apart in non-contact work.

It's not a very fair system. When contract time comes, the ACLs are going to be a deciding factor very much more than OTA attendance.
Teddy wasn't a rookie  
giants#1 : 5/25/2017 1:24 pm : link
and blew his knee out at the end of preseason, not OTAs.

And even 7th round picks have guaranteed money once they sign their deals (which is why they need waivers/insurance to attend OTAs if they haven't signed).

I can see extra sympathy for UDFAs that attend and get injured, though they arguably have the most to gain of anyone by standing out during OTAs.

Marginal vets (e.g. Herzlich) are the ones that get 'pressured' into attending. No (or small) workout bonuses and if they don't attend, they give an even bigger opportunity to the UDFAs.
RE: No  
BigBlueinChicago : 5/25/2017 2:03 pm : link
In comment 13482108 LCtheINTMachine said:
Quote:
When your boss asks you to do something, you do it. Whether you get paid or not. Or you run the risk of getting your ass fired. That's how it works in the real world. That's what employees have done for years and that's how the economy works in this country.

Do your job or perish.


Pretty easy to spot who hasn't worked in a union right here.
RE: RE: No  
LCtheINTMachine : 5/25/2017 3:01 pm : link
In comment 13482377 BigBlueinChicago said:
Quote:
In comment 13482108 LCtheINTMachine said:


Quote:


When your boss asks you to do something, you do it. Whether you get paid or not. Or you run the risk of getting your ass fired. That's how it works in the real world. That's what employees have done for years and that's how the economy works in this country.

Do your job or perish.



Pretty easy to spot who hasn't worked in a union right here.


Correct. Many companies prohibit usage of that word.
RE: Teddy wasn't a rookie  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/25/2017 3:23 pm : link
In comment 13482307 giants#1 said:
Quote:
and blew his knee out at the end of preseason, not OTAs.



In a non-contact activity. The point of mentioning him was to highlight that. It may have very well cost him his career at age 24. So I do grasp that even if it's shorts and offseason, shit happens. When it happens in a game, there's at least the thinnest pretense that it happened on the job trying to fulfill your contractual obligations.

Unpaid overtime is a shitty place to put your future at risk.
Why is it mentioned that the owners are billionaires but not that  
BestFeature : 5/25/2017 3:33 pm : link
a huge amount of the players are millionaires?
RE: No  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/25/2017 4:06 pm : link
In comment 13482108 LCtheINTMachine said:
Quote:
When your boss asks you to do something, you do it. Whether you get paid or not. Or you run the risk of getting your ass fired. That's how it works in the real world. That's what employees have done for years and that's how the economy works in this country.

Do your job or perish.

I don't know what line of work you're in, but that's not how it works in the "real world" for many people. If you're high performer or even just meeting expectations, you don't get fired for skipping an unpaid, voluntary event.

What you're describing is something that's mandatory. This, by definition and by contract, is voluntary.
RE: RE: .  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/25/2017 4:15 pm : link
In comment 13482207 giants#1 said:
Quote:
In comment 13482187 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


There's no equivalent of OTA's in construction work. That's why it's a stupid comparison.

It would be the equivalent of passing on an optional training seminar where you could potentially hurt yourself and not be able to do the real work that gets you paid.

Beckham isn't obligated to attend or participate in OTA's. He's obligated to attend training camp, practices, and perform well on Sundays. All of which he's been doing since the day he became a Giant.

Some of you guys need to deal with the fact that athletes can do what they consider to be in their best interest.



Construction workers don't have 'voluntary' skyscraper welding training in the middle of the winter to attend?

And the most important thing for Beckham right now is to stay in shape. It's not like: a) they have a new offense/QB or b) he's lounging on his sofa all day. By all accounts he's still work his a$$ off and if he comes to camp in better mental shape this way, then I'm all for it.

And if skyscraper training truly is voluntary, they can skip it. And when a skyscraper job comes up that they're untrained for, they'll likely miss out on that job.

The same goes for NFL players, by the way. Voluntary or not, if a replacement level player skips OTAs and gets passed on the depth chart in the process, he's probably going to lose his job as a result. Much like the construction worker who skipped the skyscraper training, they can make themselves expendable by their own choices.

Players like Beckham and Vernon have the luxury of being safe enough in their roster spot and role on the team that they can actually treat a voluntary event as though it's, you know, voluntary.
I've changed my thinking on players boycotting  
Jersey55 : 5/30/2017 4:44 pm : link
OTA's, now I feel its in their best interest to not show up since there are no restrictions on what they are allowed to do if they are not with the team and can work out privately, apparently Beckum and some others feel the same way about it..
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