But according to you, Odi is a guy that has to be there.
If Beckham and Vernon couldn't possibly help the team by being there, how could a fringe player like Odi? What is he going to do to help the Giants in what, to you, are useless activities?
and the scant few times he has, it's been largely ineffective.
He should be taking any potential avenue for improvement and learning. He's coming from a far lower talent level (from what we've seen) than even an Olivier Vernon much less a top-3 at his position player such as Odell. His road is naturally harder.
Frankly it's the difference between Joe Thomas gaining anything from OTAs and Ereck Flowers or Bobby Hart.
and the scant few times he has, it's been largely ineffective.
He should be taking any potential avenue for improvement and learning. He's coming from a far lower talent level (from what we've seen) than even an Olivier Vernon much less a top-3 at his position player such as Odell. His road is naturally harder.
Frankly it's the difference between Joe Thomas gaining anything from OTAs and Ereck Flowers or Bobby Hart.
But the point is, if OTAs are in some way positive for Odi and the Giants, how could they not be for Beckham and Vernon?
and I know this is totally crazy, learn some stuff from Vernon. Maybe our young receivers and our brand new TE could learn a few things from OBJ. I know, this is all crazy talk.
And now it's about getting hurt? You guys are insisting that that they doing at least as much work on their own. What if they get hurt there? Tell me. What would the response be if OBJ tears his knee doing his own workouts?
and the scant few times he has, it's been largely ineffective.
He should be taking any potential avenue for improvement and learning. He's coming from a far lower talent level (from what we've seen) than even an Olivier Vernon much less a top-3 at his position player such as Odell. His road is naturally harder.
Frankly it's the difference between Joe Thomas gaining anything from OTAs and Ereck Flowers or Bobby Hart.
But the point is, if OTAs are in some way positive for Odi and the Giants, how could they not be for Beckham and Vernon?
I would say at this point, we don't even know if Odi can play in the NFL. He should be getting coaching every day. That type of player can learn a lot from a defensive line coach.
They shouldn't be coached the same way. Odi's an entry level player. Odell's studying Calculus. The guy that's arguably the best WR in the league doesn't have a whole lot to learn from coaches. It's more about refining techniques and maintaining consistency. OO still needs to learn how to beat offensive linemen.
IMO it's another (concerning) sign of OBJ's immaturity
The pattern of behavior is what's different between him missing OTA's and someone like Vernon - who is locked into a contract and hasn't previously shown immaturity. The same reason it was be a bigger deal when Johny Manziel posted pictures from clubs than Victor Cruz (prior behavior).
Also important to note - the 4-5-6 years of any star's career are a pain in the ass because of contract renegotiation and franchise tag animosity. The combination of OBJ's "look at me" behavior and the reality that most big money contract renegotiations are hostile seems destined to not mix well. The Eli Mannings & Justin Tucks are few and far between.
"but why does that matter? who cares how much he gets paid?" I don't. But this event (and the boat, and not going to Duke, and everything else) provides further proof that there are other things on Odell's to do list than making sure what happened in GB never happens again. Add in the possible contract disputes/drama going forward due and it seems unlikely his career won't continue to be partially defined by distractions.
But according to you, Odi is a guy that has to be there.
If Beckham and Vernon couldn't possibly help the team by being there, how could a fringe player like Odi? What is he going to do to help the Giants in what, to you, are useless activities?
Odi needs to help himself, Terps.. not the team.
There's a huge difference. He's still yet to prove he's worth carrying on a yearly basis and needs to do everything he can at this point to prove he belongs if he wants to make the roster. Odi still has to prove himself to the staff.
Odell and Vernon have strangleholds on starting spots on each side of the ball and don't have to worry about that. Each player has the luxury of simply homing in on their craft.
and I know this is totally crazy, learn some stuff from Vernon. Maybe our young receivers and our brand new TE could learn a few things from OBJ. I know, this is all crazy talk.
And now it's about getting hurt? You guys are insisting that that they doing at least as much work on their own. What if they get hurt there? Tell me. What would the response be if OBJ tears his knee doing his own workouts?
So if Vernon and Odell don't mentor these kids THIS WEEK, they can't do it ever? Training camp isn't a time where this could happen?
JPP and Brandon Marshall can't help the young guys? Only Odell and Vernon can?
Arguments like this are such a reach. You know it's insignificant but are trying to find a way to make it a problem that the players aren't there simply because you want them to be.
Do you guys really think something is going to happen in a regular season game where we look back and say "man, if that kid had just been under the tutelage of Odell for those few extra days back in May, this never would have happened!" ?
Come on. You guys are so dug in on this that you're going to extreme lengths to turn it into an issue that it is not.
considering maturity has been one of his only weaknesses, isn't this another sign of a continued problem worth some amount of concern even if very mild?
I would argue that immaturity has been at the root of each of his lowest moments on the field (throwing punches, over doing some celebrations, being over-hyped in the GB game, etc) - and this is another sign (albeit a smaller one) of that still being an issue.
I don't know, I guess I don't think he's immature because he's choosing to train on his own. Maybe he thinks he can get more out of what he's doing right now.
The bottom line is that I don't think anyone can doubt his work ethic. He's been called one of the hardest workers on the team quite a few times. He wants to be a great player, he wants to win.
If this was mandatory rather than voluntary, he'd be there. But it's not. It's voluntary.
People made a big stink about DRC not being there last year and I think that turned out quite alright.
It's OTA's in May. It's not training camp, its not mandatory and he's not loafing. He's busting his a** and working on his craft. Ideally, would it be nice if he did this before OTA's and then came to OTA's, sure, but you cannot question this guys work ethic, desire to be great and dedication to the NY Giants. No matter how much Go Terps wants to, you just cannoy question any of those things. He will end his career as one of the best WR's to ever play the game and some schlub wants to trade him because he doesn't like guys with personalities. Odell has done absolutely nothing except prove that he's an amazing talent who will work at his craft. We are blessed to have him on the team and we will be blessed to see him inducted into the HOF as a NY Giant.
I know people like Go Terps are just so perfect at every aspect of their lives that they can stand on their soap box pointing at this kid for everything he does wrong, but the reality is that he doesn't really do much wrong. He's passionate and fiery and will learn to control that emotion as he matures on the field. Off the field he is a model citizen and a fantastic role model for young people.
In regards to his leadership. There are different kinds of leaders. There are emotional leaders like Ray Lewis who gets guys to rally around him through his emotions and words, but there are also guys who lead just by being great. I know some(you can always tell who) have never played an organized sport before, but I would bet my life that a lot of players look at Odell as a leader. He leads by example on the field. They don't care about this stupid stuff that means nothing. They see how he works and they see how it translates onto the field. He's most definitely a leader on this team and guys rally around him.
and I know this is totally crazy, learn some stuff from Vernon. Maybe our young receivers and our brand new TE could learn a few things from OBJ. I know, this is all crazy talk.
And now it's about getting hurt? You guys are insisting that that they doing at least as much work on their own. What if they get hurt there? Tell me. What would the response be if OBJ tears his knee doing his own workouts?
So if Vernon and Odell don't mentor these kids THIS WEEK, they can't do it ever? Training camp isn't a time where this could happen?
JPP and Brandon Marshall can't help the young guys? Only Odell and Vernon can?
Arguments like this are such a reach. You know it's insignificant but are trying to find a way to make it a problem that the players aren't there simply because you want them to be.
Do you guys really think something is going to happen in a regular season game where we look back and say "man, if that kid had just been under the tutelage of Odell for those few extra days back in May, this never would have happened!" ?
Come on. You guys are so dug in on this that you're going to extreme lengths to turn it into an issue that it is not.
You are overstating things to try to make your point. Did I say that Only Odell and Vernon can help? No. Did I say that if they don't do it this week they never can? No.
This is a team activity. They are high-profile players on the team. They should be there. Again, it's not complicated. Will something happen in a regular season game where we look back and say "man, if that kid had just been under the tutelage of Odell for those few extra days back in May, this never would have happened!"? I don't know (and neither do you). But giving those younger players more opportunities than less is obviously better for them. Giving these guys more opportunities than less to work with their new teammates and help install new concepts on their sides of the ball is obviously better for them.
At this point, its arguing for the sake of arguing. Nobody is calling OBJ Becky. Nobody is saying he sucks, or we should get rid of him, or he's not the long-term answer. Nobody is saying it was a mistake to sign Vernon or that we should get rid of him. People are saying they should be at practice with the rest of their teammates. Is that really such a controversial hot take? Whatever...
It's OTA's in May. It's not training camp, its not mandatory and he's not loafing. He's busting his a** and working on his craft. Ideally, would it be nice if he did this before OTA's and then came to OTA's, sure, but you cannot question this guys work ethic, desire to be great and dedication to the NY Giants.
This sums up why I don't understand the argument. I am not questioning his work ethic or anything else. I am completely in agreement that it would be ideal if he came to OTA's. That's all I am saying, but people read what they want to read, I guess.
It's not stupid to suggest trading him. The time to do it would be now before we pay him twenty million a year and make him untradeable.
Right now he has trade value that might be greater than Herschel Walker. It would be the epitome of selling high on an asset, and would protect the Giants from Beckham possibly being devalued by injury, his own stupidity, or otherwise.
he has his own life. It's May, the season ended a few months ago. From June til February, he's going to be working with the team. He is entitled to do his own thing before then, its voluntary. It's not like he's sitting on his couch getting fat. He's training on his time and how he wants. He will have TONS of time before the season to work with the team, mentor the young players and build chemistry. It literally means nothing.
It's not stupid to suggest trading him. The time to do it would be now before we pay him twenty million a year and make him untradeable.
Right now he has trade value that might be greater than Herschel Walker. It would be the epitome of selling high on an asset, and would protect the Giants from Beckham possibly being devalued by injury, his own stupidity, or otherwise.
I don't think any of us are saying we'd actually prefer him not to be there.
But it's basically the equivalent of saying.. would I like a Bentley in my garage? Of course I would. Does it matter that I don't? Nah.
I just don't think it matters. I honestly think that saying he should be there to mentor younger players is a major reach. That's not his job. He hasn't even eclipsed his rookie contract yet. That's what the coaches and vets are there for. If kids need guidance at OTA's, it's available to them. Odell is far from the only place they can get it.
I just don't get why this has to mean he's immature or not a team guy. His teammates all speak highly of him. Marshall has only been here a couple months and raved about how hard Odell works and how he marvels at watching him do what he does.
I just don't think it matters or will make any difference come September but we have half of BBI up in arms over this as if it's a major issue. It's OTA's. It's May. Let's take a deep breath.
that OTA's 100% don't matter. Especially with training camp practice sessions being cut down in recent years. Less practices, less reps. I don't see anything wrong with getting a head-start by being there in May for a week, or whatever it is and getting to know some of the new players that are skill position players on your side of the ball (Marshall, Engram) now. But whatever.
Even if Beckham weren't a total asshole I'd rather they traded him instead of paying him. Paying a wide receiver twenty million a year just doesn't make sense.
Beckham being an asshole only makes the decision easier.
Will Odell's absence from OTA's have any effect whatsoever on the upcoming season?
I don't know if his absence from the OTA's will have any measurable effect, but it is possible that a player's presence at OTA's can lay the foundation for a less tangible effect that reaps rewards during the season. I imagine their presence is one of those cumulative things that can help a player -- even one who isn't interested in being a leader -- establish a sense of gravity, just like their skills and performance on the field can. All these cumulative things might come in handy when you need to make a big withdrawal at a big moment.
Nothing more and what gets him attention? Showing up to work with his teammates or fucking off with Johnny Manziel and some fat faced bitch in a bowling alley? He lives on social media posting everything he can to garner attention because he's in love with being a celebrity not a football player. Is he a hard worker, yeah he is and he goes all out on the field but it's time to put your team first and be here and he's not doing it so he can further his celebrity and be a story. He lives for the limelight and he lives for the attention and the controversy that he creates even when he claims there is nothing to see here.
There is a simple bottom line, he should be here and he isn't.
Ideally, would it be nice if he did this before OTA's and then came to OTA's, sure, but you cannot question this guys work ethic
To me it's almost as much of a fallacy to assume he has a great work ethic than it is to dismiss his ethic because he's missing OTA's. Yes, he works on his craft, and he's very likely in a level of peak condition only a small percentage of people achieve. But you know, that's not necessarily proof of unparalleled work ethic -- he might actually just really like (or at least not dislike) achieving any of those things.
We've all known people who by appearances work hard at one or a few thing, but reveal themselves not to really be "hard" workers once you discover they don't really do anything they don't like. Beckham may or may not be one of those people -- you can't discount either possibility.
Only much worse because he's a millenial that's gone full throttle off the deep end with social media.
But Cruz always struck me as a guy that, as soon as he became a household name, got a taste for something off the field. Football became secondary to him being Victor Cruz the Roc Nation employee and celebrity.
What these guys don't realize is without football, they aren't nearly as interesting. Ronda Rousey is dealing with the same thing without her UFC dominance. Football is why anybody gives a sh#t about these guys. Otherwise OBJ and Cruz are nobodies just like everyone else.
In fact - that was Lebron's advice to OBJ way back when, his rookie year. Take care of your football first.
Will Odell's absence from OTA's have any effect whatsoever on the upcoming season?
Either you can tell the truth, and say no, or you can reach far and wide to invent some half-assed reasons as to how you think it could.
Nary a peep about Olivier Vernon, who is making significantly more money than Beckham, but about 10 threads about Beckham.
No one seems to be worried that Vernon's absence will negatively effect the defense or that he's not there to offer a hand to younger guys or whatever reasons we're digging feverishly for at this point - but Beckham not being there is supposed to have some sort of team-wide drawback?
The amount of attention this topic is receiving in relation to the impact it actually has on the team is fucking absurd.
No one is going to care about this when training camp opens at the end of July and Beckham is there like everyone else.
You don't know the first fucking thing about what a teammate is do you? You sow the seeds for the season starting now, and acting like your little boyfriend is above the law and it's not a negative thing is just you being a whiny fan boy who doesn't have one shred of common sense. Every moment matters with your team, every single one and in this CBA neutered world of practice you need every rep you can get and you need to be there with your team. Your absolution of this me first head case is sickening.
Nothing more and what gets him attention? Showing up to work with his teammates or fucking off with Johnny Manziel and some fat faced bitch in a bowling alley? He lives on social media posting everything he can to garner attention because he's in love with being a celebrity not a football player. Is he a hard worker, yeah he is and he goes all out on the field but it's time to put your team first and be here and he's not doing it so he can further his celebrity and be a story. He lives for the limelight and he lives for the attention and the controversy that he creates even when he claims there is nothing to see here.
There is a simple bottom line, he should be here and he isn't.
I agree 100%. the problem is, too many here think that means you either hate him or crying the sky is falling because he isn't here. Neither is true. On the field, he is one of my favorite (and both of my sons') favorite players. I have often said I think he is the best offensive weapon I have ever seen play. I also think he will continue to produce at a high level.
All that said, I agree that both he and the Giants would only benefit from him being here, and at the other informal workouts, like the one Manning runs with receivers on his own. Does he need this to succeed? No. But, it will only make him, Eli, and the team better to do things like this.
Likewise, do I think the Miami trip was the reason we lost the playoff game and/or he didn't have a great game? No. But, I do think it is perfectly legitimate to look at things like this and question him, his focus, etc. Does that mean I think he will implode, he isn't working hard, etc.? No. But, it does mean I think he can and should do more to be at his absolute best and for the offense to be at its best. It's not wrong to point out he is not maximizing his output...and that is scary considering what his output is already.
The truth is, a lot of players with high talent don't maximize their talent. Hell, a lot don't get to the high level he's already playing at. But, the very best in any sport, more often than not, tend to be the guys that work MUCH harder than everyone else.
doesn't mean he is doing everything he can. I would much rather he be working out with the rest of the team when it is possible. I get that it is voluntary. But, I still think it is a reasonable expectation that most players will view this as beneficial, if not necessary to overall success. Hell, I wish more players were working out at the team facilities much of the off season.
Only much worse because he's a millenial that's gone full throttle off the deep end with social media.
But Cruz always struck me as a guy that, as soon as he became a household name, got a taste for something off the field. Football became secondary to him being Victor Cruz the Roc Nation employee and celebrity.
What these guys don't realize is without football, they aren't nearly as interesting. Ronda Rousey is dealing with the same thing without her UFC dominance. Football is why anybody gives a sh#t about these guys. Otherwise OBJ and Cruz are nobodies just like everyone else.
In fact - that was Lebron's advice to OBJ way back when, his rookie year. Take care of your football first.
Again.. Beckham has not posted anything on social media since mid-April. But let's not let that get in the way of complaining about it.
The truth is, a lot of players with high talent don't maximize their talent. Hell, a lot don't get to the high level he's already playing at. But, the very best in any sport, more often than not, tend to be the guys that work MUCH harder than everyone else.
Shit, Beckham might very well maximize his talent without attending OTA's. I mean, I have little doubt he'll post yet another crazy season statistically and a good many people will say, "See? Who needs OTA's!" And they might be right.
But at least consider that his presence might have some less tangible benefits. Like CIP said, maybe he'd provide a good example and could help accelerate his teammates' growth. Maybe it would help develop some bond with some random player that actually happens to pay dividends during the season. All of these only apply if you think that a team's success might be more than the sum of the numbers its players put up.
I don't think that his absence is a huge negative, as much as I think his presence could be a positive.
Will Odell's absence from OTA's have any effect whatsoever on the upcoming season?
Either you can tell the truth, and say no, or you can reach far and wide to invent some half-assed reasons as to how you think it could.
Nary a peep about Olivier Vernon, who is making significantly more money than Beckham, but about 10 threads about Beckham.
No one seems to be worried that Vernon's absence will negatively effect the defense or that he's not there to offer a hand to younger guys or whatever reasons we're digging feverishly for at this point - but Beckham not being there is supposed to have some sort of team-wide drawback?
The amount of attention this topic is receiving in relation to the impact it actually has on the team is fucking absurd.
No one is going to care about this when training camp opens at the end of July and Beckham is there like everyone else.
You don't know the first fucking thing about what a teammate is do you? You sow the seeds for the season starting now, and acting like your little boyfriend is above the law and it's not a negative thing is just you being a whiny fan boy who doesn't have one shred of common sense. Every moment matters with your team, every single one and in this CBA neutered world of practice you need every rep you can get and you need to be there with your team. Your absolution of this me first head case is sickening.
Ideally, would it be nice if he did this before OTA's and then came to OTA's, sure, but you cannot question this guys work ethic
To me it's almost as much of a fallacy to assume he has a great work ethic than it is to dismiss his ethic because he's missing OTA's. Yes, he works on his craft, and he's very likely in a level of peak condition only a small percentage of people achieve. But you know, that's not necessarily proof of unparalleled work ethic -- he might actually just really like (or at least not dislike) achieving any of those things.
We've all known people who by appearances work hard at one or a few thing, but reveal themselves not to really be "hard" workers once you discover they don't really do anything they don't like. Beckham may or may not be one of those people -- you can't discount either possibility.
Well, that's just you. Almost every teammate, coach and people that do know, talk about how hard he works. It's actually pretty obvious that he works his ass off. I absolutely can discount everything you just said because clearly you have no clue what you are talking about. How about this. Do just a little bit of research regarding his training and how hard he works and let me know what you find.
This line right here is how I feel. Well said, IMO.
I don't think that his absence is a huge negative, as much as I think his presence could be a positive.
There is nothing negative about him not being at these volunary workouts. If we were installing a new offense, I'd think differently. I also think it's important to note that you said it COULD be a positive and I guess you can make a case that it could be. However, he will be with these guys in 2-3 weeks and they will be working together for 3 months until the season starts so there will be plenty of time for him to have a positive impact.
I liked some of the stuff Carter was showing him/telling him
But, how much of that was to hear himself speak? For example, there is about a minute long clip of him showing OBJ how he would plant and cut to turn square. That's all great, but there wasn't anything to show OBJ ever had an issue. He runs great routes and has from day one.
RE: IMO it's another (concerning) sign of OBJ's immaturity
The pattern of behavior is what's different between him missing OTA's and someone like Vernon - who is locked into a contract and hasn't previously shown immaturity. The same reason it was be a bigger deal when Johny Manziel posted pictures from clubs than Victor Cruz (prior behavior).
Also important to note - the 4-5-6 years of any star's career are a pain in the ass because of contract renegotiation and franchise tag animosity. The combination of OBJ's "look at me" behavior and the reality that most big money contract renegotiations are hostile seems destined to not mix well. The Eli Mannings & Justin Tucks are few and far between.
"but why does that matter? who cares how much he gets paid?" I don't. But this event (and the boat, and not going to Duke, and everything else) provides further proof that there are other things on Odell's to do list than making sure what happened in GB never happens again. Add in the possible contract disputes/drama going forward due and it seems unlikely his career won't continue to be partially defined by distractions.
You have a very loose definition of the word proof. We are being very quick to assume a player isn't working or isn't focused on his career without knowing what this player is doing.
The most obvious sign that he has been a hard worker his whole career is that he walked into the league on day one and was highly productive, and he's been exceptional since. Not very good. Not really good. Top 3 at his position without hyperbole.
Well, that's just you. Almost every teammate, coach and people that do know, talk about how hard he works. It's actually pretty obvious that he works his ass off. I absolutely can discount everything you just said because clearly you have no clue what you are talking about. How about this. Do just a little bit of research regarding his training and how hard he works and let me know what you find.
It really isn't. Do a search for the term "work ethic" and check out all the things that are likely to be mentioned that aren't just "does something over and over again until he's really good at it."
RE: This line right here is how I feel. Well said, IMO.
I don't think that his absence is a huge negative, as much as I think his presence could be a positive.
There is nothing negative about him not being at these volunary workouts. If we were installing a new offense, I'd think differently. I also think it's important to note that you said it COULD be a positive and I guess you can make a case that it could be. However, he will be with these guys in 2-3 weeks and they will be working together for 3 months until the season starts so there will be plenty of time for him to have a positive impact.
I think this is well put. That's one thing I was trying to get across. There is a benefit to him (and everyone else) being here for any formal workouts, than there is a negative for not being here.
A lot of ya'll like to shit on Draymond Green. And I get it. But Green has worked the fuck out of his NBA career to go from a second round tweener to who many argue is the Warrior's most valuable player. You won't find a shortage of quotes and articles asserting that Green's mere presence and force of will makes shit happen on that team, from affecting the development, work ethic, and confidence of young players, to aligning the behavior of incoming HOF'ers (Durant, obviously) to fit the Warriors' system.
I can't imagine having that sort of gravity if he skipped workouts. But then, I can't imagine him skipping workouts.
Beckham actually hasn't posted anything on social media since April 18th.
But don't let that get in the way of a good rant.
Beckham still snaps under one of his accounts regularly.
It's only Instagram where he hasn't posted lately (I don't follow him, so I'm not sure if he posted stories or not) and only pops up when his boys share something.
I know absolutely nothing about Snapchat, so if he's been using it, I wouldn't know and I guess that would mean I am wrong about him not having used social media recently.
I really don't care either way. All of these guys use these apps, it's 2017.
Neither guy is there, neither guy has to be there, and none of this will matter in September.
If Beckham and Vernon couldn't possibly help the team by being there, how could a fringe player like Odi? What is he going to do to help the Giants in what, to you, are useless activities?
He should be taking any potential avenue for improvement and learning. He's coming from a far lower talent level (from what we've seen) than even an Olivier Vernon much less a top-3 at his position player such as Odell. His road is naturally harder.
Frankly it's the difference between Joe Thomas gaining anything from OTAs and Ereck Flowers or Bobby Hart.
He should be taking any potential avenue for improvement and learning. He's coming from a far lower talent level (from what we've seen) than even an Olivier Vernon much less a top-3 at his position player such as Odell. His road is naturally harder.
Frankly it's the difference between Joe Thomas gaining anything from OTAs and Ereck Flowers or Bobby Hart.
But the point is, if OTAs are in some way positive for Odi and the Giants, how could they not be for Beckham and Vernon?
And now it's about getting hurt? You guys are insisting that that they doing at least as much work on their own. What if they get hurt there? Tell me. What would the response be if OBJ tears his knee doing his own workouts?
Quote:
and the scant few times he has, it's been largely ineffective.
He should be taking any potential avenue for improvement and learning. He's coming from a far lower talent level (from what we've seen) than even an Olivier Vernon much less a top-3 at his position player such as Odell. His road is naturally harder.
Frankly it's the difference between Joe Thomas gaining anything from OTAs and Ereck Flowers or Bobby Hart.
But the point is, if OTAs are in some way positive for Odi and the Giants, how could they not be for Beckham and Vernon?
I would say at this point, we don't even know if Odi can play in the NFL. He should be getting coaching every day. That type of player can learn a lot from a defensive line coach.
They shouldn't be coached the same way. Odi's an entry level player. Odell's studying Calculus. The guy that's arguably the best WR in the league doesn't have a whole lot to learn from coaches. It's more about refining techniques and maintaining consistency. OO still needs to learn how to beat offensive linemen.
Also important to note - the 4-5-6 years of any star's career are a pain in the ass because of contract renegotiation and franchise tag animosity. The combination of OBJ's "look at me" behavior and the reality that most big money contract renegotiations are hostile seems destined to not mix well. The Eli Mannings & Justin Tucks are few and far between.
"but why does that matter? who cares how much he gets paid?" I don't. But this event (and the boat, and not going to Duke, and everything else) provides further proof that there are other things on Odell's to do list than making sure what happened in GB never happens again. Add in the possible contract disputes/drama going forward due and it seems unlikely his career won't continue to be partially defined by distractions.
If Beckham and Vernon couldn't possibly help the team by being there, how could a fringe player like Odi? What is he going to do to help the Giants in what, to you, are useless activities?
Odi needs to help himself, Terps.. not the team.
There's a huge difference. He's still yet to prove he's worth carrying on a yearly basis and needs to do everything he can at this point to prove he belongs if he wants to make the roster. Odi still has to prove himself to the staff.
Odell and Vernon have strangleholds on starting spots on each side of the ball and don't have to worry about that. Each player has the luxury of simply homing in on their craft.
You really don't see the difference?
And now it's about getting hurt? You guys are insisting that that they doing at least as much work on their own. What if they get hurt there? Tell me. What would the response be if OBJ tears his knee doing his own workouts?
So if Vernon and Odell don't mentor these kids THIS WEEK, they can't do it ever? Training camp isn't a time where this could happen?
JPP and Brandon Marshall can't help the young guys? Only Odell and Vernon can?
Arguments like this are such a reach. You know it's insignificant but are trying to find a way to make it a problem that the players aren't there simply because you want them to be.
Do you guys really think something is going to happen in a regular season game where we look back and say "man, if that kid had just been under the tutelage of Odell for those few extra days back in May, this never would have happened!" ?
Come on. You guys are so dug in on this that you're going to extreme lengths to turn it into an issue that it is not.
I would argue that immaturity has been at the root of each of his lowest moments on the field (throwing punches, over doing some celebrations, being over-hyped in the GB game, etc) - and this is another sign (albeit a smaller one) of that still being an issue.
How do you critique this without knowing the why?
The bottom line is that I don't think anyone can doubt his work ethic. He's been called one of the hardest workers on the team quite a few times. He wants to be a great player, he wants to win.
If this was mandatory rather than voluntary, he'd be there. But it's not. It's voluntary.
People made a big stink about DRC not being there last year and I think that turned out quite alright.
Heck, we're all just proud of you for not posting a gif.
I know people like Go Terps are just so perfect at every aspect of their lives that they can stand on their soap box pointing at this kid for everything he does wrong, but the reality is that he doesn't really do much wrong. He's passionate and fiery and will learn to control that emotion as he matures on the field. Off the field he is a model citizen and a fantastic role model for young people.
In regards to his leadership. There are different kinds of leaders. There are emotional leaders like Ray Lewis who gets guys to rally around him through his emotions and words, but there are also guys who lead just by being great. I know some(you can always tell who) have never played an organized sport before, but I would bet my life that a lot of players look at Odell as a leader. He leads by example on the field. They don't care about this stupid stuff that means nothing. They see how he works and they see how it translates onto the field. He's most definitely a leader on this team and guys rally around him.
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and I know this is totally crazy, learn some stuff from Vernon. Maybe our young receivers and our brand new TE could learn a few things from OBJ. I know, this is all crazy talk.
And now it's about getting hurt? You guys are insisting that that they doing at least as much work on their own. What if they get hurt there? Tell me. What would the response be if OBJ tears his knee doing his own workouts?
So if Vernon and Odell don't mentor these kids THIS WEEK, they can't do it ever? Training camp isn't a time where this could happen?
JPP and Brandon Marshall can't help the young guys? Only Odell and Vernon can?
Arguments like this are such a reach. You know it's insignificant but are trying to find a way to make it a problem that the players aren't there simply because you want them to be.
Do you guys really think something is going to happen in a regular season game where we look back and say "man, if that kid had just been under the tutelage of Odell for those few extra days back in May, this never would have happened!" ?
Come on. You guys are so dug in on this that you're going to extreme lengths to turn it into an issue that it is not.
You are overstating things to try to make your point. Did I say that Only Odell and Vernon can help? No. Did I say that if they don't do it this week they never can? No.
This is a team activity. They are high-profile players on the team. They should be there. Again, it's not complicated. Will something happen in a regular season game where we look back and say "man, if that kid had just been under the tutelage of Odell for those few extra days back in May, this never would have happened!"? I don't know (and neither do you). But giving those younger players more opportunities than less is obviously better for them. Giving these guys more opportunities than less to work with their new teammates and help install new concepts on their sides of the ball is obviously better for them.
At this point, its arguing for the sake of arguing. Nobody is calling OBJ Becky. Nobody is saying he sucks, or we should get rid of him, or he's not the long-term answer. Nobody is saying it was a mistake to sign Vernon or that we should get rid of him. People are saying they should be at practice with the rest of their teammates. Is that really such a controversial hot take? Whatever...
This sums up why I don't understand the argument. I am not questioning his work ethic or anything else. I am completely in agreement that it would be ideal if he came to OTA's. That's all I am saying, but people read what they want to read, I guess.
It's not stupid to suggest trading him. The time to do it would be now before we pay him twenty million a year and make him untradeable.
Right now he has trade value that might be greater than Herschel Walker. It would be the epitome of selling high on an asset, and would protect the Giants from Beckham possibly being devalued by injury, his own stupidity, or otherwise.
It's not stupid to suggest trading him. The time to do it would be now before we pay him twenty million a year and make him untradeable.
Right now he has trade value that might be greater than Herschel Walker. It would be the epitome of selling high on an asset, and would protect the Giants from Beckham possibly being devalued by injury, his own stupidity, or otherwise.
OK, fine. One person said it!
But it's basically the equivalent of saying.. would I like a Bentley in my garage? Of course I would. Does it matter that I don't? Nah.
I just don't think it matters. I honestly think that saying he should be there to mentor younger players is a major reach. That's not his job. He hasn't even eclipsed his rookie contract yet. That's what the coaches and vets are there for. If kids need guidance at OTA's, it's available to them. Odell is far from the only place they can get it.
I just don't get why this has to mean he's immature or not a team guy. His teammates all speak highly of him. Marshall has only been here a couple months and raved about how hard Odell works and how he marvels at watching him do what he does.
I just don't think it matters or will make any difference come September but we have half of BBI up in arms over this as if it's a major issue. It's OTA's. It's May. Let's take a deep breath.
Rookies, guys on the bubble, players who are long-shots to make the team.. those are all guys who actually need to be there.
Guys like Beckham and Vernon really don't have much to gain.
If vital things were happening during OTA's, they wouldn't be voluntary.
Beckham being an asshole only makes the decision easier.
Will Odell's absence from OTA's have any effect whatsoever on the upcoming season?
I don't know if his absence from the OTA's will have any measurable effect, but it is possible that a player's presence at OTA's can lay the foundation for a less tangible effect that reaps rewards during the season. I imagine their presence is one of those cumulative things that can help a player -- even one who isn't interested in being a leader -- establish a sense of gravity, just like their skills and performance on the field can. All these cumulative things might come in handy when you need to make a big withdrawal at a big moment.
There is a simple bottom line, he should be here and he isn't.
To me it's almost as much of a fallacy to assume he has a great work ethic than it is to dismiss his ethic because he's missing OTA's. Yes, he works on his craft, and he's very likely in a level of peak condition only a small percentage of people achieve. But you know, that's not necessarily proof of unparalleled work ethic -- he might actually just really like (or at least not dislike) achieving any of those things.
We've all known people who by appearances work hard at one or a few thing, but reveal themselves not to really be "hard" workers once you discover they don't really do anything they don't like. Beckham may or may not be one of those people -- you can't discount either possibility.
But don't let that get in the way of a good rant.
But Cruz always struck me as a guy that, as soon as he became a household name, got a taste for something off the field. Football became secondary to him being Victor Cruz the Roc Nation employee and celebrity.
What these guys don't realize is without football, they aren't nearly as interesting. Ronda Rousey is dealing with the same thing without her UFC dominance. Football is why anybody gives a sh#t about these guys. Otherwise OBJ and Cruz are nobodies just like everyone else.
In fact - that was Lebron's advice to OBJ way back when, his rookie year. Take care of your football first.
Will Odell's absence from OTA's have any effect whatsoever on the upcoming season?
Either you can tell the truth, and say no, or you can reach far and wide to invent some half-assed reasons as to how you think it could.
Nary a peep about Olivier Vernon, who is making significantly more money than Beckham, but about 10 threads about Beckham.
No one seems to be worried that Vernon's absence will negatively effect the defense or that he's not there to offer a hand to younger guys or whatever reasons we're digging feverishly for at this point - but Beckham not being there is supposed to have some sort of team-wide drawback?
The amount of attention this topic is receiving in relation to the impact it actually has on the team is fucking absurd.
No one is going to care about this when training camp opens at the end of July and Beckham is there like everyone else.
There is a simple bottom line, he should be here and he isn't.
All that said, I agree that both he and the Giants would only benefit from him being here, and at the other informal workouts, like the one Manning runs with receivers on his own. Does he need this to succeed? No. But, it will only make him, Eli, and the team better to do things like this.
Likewise, do I think the Miami trip was the reason we lost the playoff game and/or he didn't have a great game? No. But, I do think it is perfectly legitimate to look at things like this and question him, his focus, etc. Does that mean I think he will implode, he isn't working hard, etc.? No. But, it does mean I think he can and should do more to be at his absolute best and for the offense to be at its best. It's not wrong to point out he is not maximizing his output...and that is scary considering what his output is already.
The truth is, a lot of players with high talent don't maximize their talent. Hell, a lot don't get to the high level he's already playing at. But, the very best in any sport, more often than not, tend to be the guys that work MUCH harder than everyone else.
Yeah, no sh#t. Nothing about the NFL is the end of the world. It's a phrase uttered by a beaten man in a debate.
It's not healthy.
It's a holiday weekend. Lighten up.
But Cruz always struck me as a guy that, as soon as he became a household name, got a taste for something off the field. Football became secondary to him being Victor Cruz the Roc Nation employee and celebrity.
What these guys don't realize is without football, they aren't nearly as interesting. Ronda Rousey is dealing with the same thing without her UFC dominance. Football is why anybody gives a sh#t about these guys. Otherwise OBJ and Cruz are nobodies just like everyone else.
In fact - that was Lebron's advice to OBJ way back when, his rookie year. Take care of your football first.
Again.. Beckham has not posted anything on social media since mid-April. But let's not let that get in the way of complaining about it.
Shit, Beckham might very well maximize his talent without attending OTA's. I mean, I have little doubt he'll post yet another crazy season statistically and a good many people will say, "See? Who needs OTA's!" And they might be right.
But at least consider that his presence might have some less tangible benefits. Like CIP said, maybe he'd provide a good example and could help accelerate his teammates' growth. Maybe it would help develop some bond with some random player that actually happens to pay dividends during the season. All of these only apply if you think that a team's success might be more than the sum of the numbers its players put up.
I don't think that his absence is a huge negative, as much as I think his presence could be a positive.
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Again, I will pose this question..
Will Odell's absence from OTA's have any effect whatsoever on the upcoming season?
Either you can tell the truth, and say no, or you can reach far and wide to invent some half-assed reasons as to how you think it could.
Nary a peep about Olivier Vernon, who is making significantly more money than Beckham, but about 10 threads about Beckham.
No one seems to be worried that Vernon's absence will negatively effect the defense or that he's not there to offer a hand to younger guys or whatever reasons we're digging feverishly for at this point - but Beckham not being there is supposed to have some sort of team-wide drawback?
The amount of attention this topic is receiving in relation to the impact it actually has on the team is fucking absurd.
No one is going to care about this when training camp opens at the end of July and Beckham is there like everyone else.
You don't know the first fucking thing about what a teammate is do you? You sow the seeds for the season starting now, and acting like your little boyfriend is above the law and it's not a negative thing is just you being a whiny fan boy who doesn't have one shred of common sense. Every moment matters with your team, every single one and in this CBA neutered world of practice you need every rep you can get and you need to be there with your team. Your absolution of this me first head case is sickening.
You seem like a really fun, easy going guy.
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Ideally, would it be nice if he did this before OTA's and then came to OTA's, sure, but you cannot question this guys work ethic
To me it's almost as much of a fallacy to assume he has a great work ethic than it is to dismiss his ethic because he's missing OTA's. Yes, he works on his craft, and he's very likely in a level of peak condition only a small percentage of people achieve. But you know, that's not necessarily proof of unparalleled work ethic -- he might actually just really like (or at least not dislike) achieving any of those things.
We've all known people who by appearances work hard at one or a few thing, but reveal themselves not to really be "hard" workers once you discover they don't really do anything they don't like. Beckham may or may not be one of those people -- you can't discount either possibility.
Well, that's just you. Almost every teammate, coach and people that do know, talk about how hard he works. It's actually pretty obvious that he works his ass off. I absolutely can discount everything you just said because clearly you have no clue what you are talking about. How about this. Do just a little bit of research regarding his training and how hard he works and let me know what you find.
I don't think that his absence is a huge negative, as much as I think his presence could be a positive.
There is nothing negative about him not being at these volunary workouts. If we were installing a new offense, I'd think differently. I also think it's important to note that you said it COULD be a positive and I guess you can make a case that it could be. However, he will be with these guys in 2-3 weeks and they will be working together for 3 months until the season starts so there will be plenty of time for him to have a positive impact.
Also important to note - the 4-5-6 years of any star's career are a pain in the ass because of contract renegotiation and franchise tag animosity. The combination of OBJ's "look at me" behavior and the reality that most big money contract renegotiations are hostile seems destined to not mix well. The Eli Mannings & Justin Tucks are few and far between.
"but why does that matter? who cares how much he gets paid?" I don't. But this event (and the boat, and not going to Duke, and everything else) provides further proof that there are other things on Odell's to do list than making sure what happened in GB never happens again. Add in the possible contract disputes/drama going forward due and it seems unlikely his career won't continue to be partially defined by distractions.
You have a very loose definition of the word proof. We are being very quick to assume a player isn't working or isn't focused on his career without knowing what this player is doing.
The most obvious sign that he has been a hard worker his whole career is that he walked into the league on day one and was highly productive, and he's been exceptional since. Not very good. Not really good. Top 3 at his position without hyperbole.
Well, that's just you. Almost every teammate, coach and people that do know, talk about how hard he works. It's actually pretty obvious that he works his ass off. I absolutely can discount everything you just said because clearly you have no clue what you are talking about. How about this. Do just a little bit of research regarding his training and how hard he works and let me know what you find.
It really isn't. Do a search for the term "work ethic" and check out all the things that are likely to be mentioned that aren't just "does something over and over again until he's really good at it."
I don't think that his absence is a huge negative, as much as I think his presence could be a positive.
Really? You agree with that? Remember, I have no clue what I'm talking about.
I don't think that his absence is a huge negative, as much as I think his presence could be a positive.
There is nothing negative about him not being at these volunary workouts. If we were installing a new offense, I'd think differently. I also think it's important to note that you said it COULD be a positive and I guess you can make a case that it could be. However, he will be with these guys in 2-3 weeks and they will be working together for 3 months until the season starts so there will be plenty of time for him to have a positive impact.
I can't imagine having that sort of gravity if he skipped workouts. But then, I can't imagine him skipping workouts.
But don't let that get in the way of a good rant.
Beckham still snaps under one of his accounts regularly.
It's only Instagram where he hasn't posted lately (I don't follow him, so I'm not sure if he posted stories or not) and only pops up when his boys share something.
I really don't care either way. All of these guys use these apps, it's 2017.