most pitchers if they cant blow it past you they struggle. The guys that have many pitches that work well, can move the ball are the guys that last the longest.
counterpoint: modern hitters will devour the softer shit that most pitchers of Seaver's era were getting away with.
It's like when I look back at turn of the century pitchers. Wow! Great job not getting knocked around by a 5'5 140 lbs. short stop. Kudos.
I guess you didn't see what junk ball pitchers did to the Yanks the last few games? Or maybe what Montgomery did to KC or what Vargas has done to every team not called the Yankees. Dallas Keuchel?
Greg Maddux is a HOF pitcher not breaking a pane of glass, Andy Pettitte, Jimmy Key and Mike Mussina were close to HOF status.
absolutely right, here he is throwing mostly fastballs but just changing speeds and locating his spots. Couldn't the mets use a guy like him right now, able to give you 7+ innings and give your BP a break!
some pitchers today might be pitching at max effort too frequently...but you can't overstate just how better the environment was for pitchers during Seaver's era compared to now.
I've blamed my older bro and GTS for my choice. There have been times over the last 20-30 years when I've said to myself - I could've been a Yankee fan!
Oh well. Still love Tom Seaver.. and I think he's right about this. It doesn't mean don't throw mid to upper 90s once in a while. But pick the moments.
counterpoint: modern hitters will devour the softer shit that most pitchers of Seaver's era were getting away with.
It's like when I look back at turn of the century pitchers. Wow! Great job not getting knocked around by a 5'5 140 lbs. short stop. Kudos.
I guess you didn't see what junk ball pitchers did to the Yanks the last few games? Or maybe what Montgomery did to KC or what Vargas has done to every team not called the Yankees. Dallas Keuchel?
Greg Maddux is a HOF pitcher not breaking a pane of glass, Andy Pettitte, Jimmy Key and Mike Mussina were close to HOF status.
Some guys are exceptions. It isnt good advice to say "dont throw super hard, just have Maddux's pinpoint control". The data is that for the most part the hard throwers are more effective. Teams arent forcing these guys to fireball it. They're just promoting the most effective players.
I have often heard them say that "when you are getting hit, start throwing the ball slower because batters adjust for faster pitches and the typical pitcher who is getting hit, starts pitching harder and ends up getting hit harder".
Rick Reuschel used to fascinate me as he had tremendous success with an easy motion (very deceptive) and throwing pitches that looked more like softballs. He could throw the ball a little over 90 mph, but instead, alternated the speed from 79, to 88, to 83, to 87, to 80, etc. And every pitch looked identical.
Then there was David LaRoche who would pitch like he was throwing a shot put and called it the "La Lob". Made me laugh to see him screw Gorman Thomas right into the ground swinging at a 30 MPH pitch.
Deception is a huge part of pitching. Today it's all about speed and alternating east/west; north/south, etc. The - ( New Window )
Changing speeds and location are, of course, very effective
was on with Francesca a week or two back and gave a great interview on the problem with today's pitchers. He hates the way the young guys are handled.
Smoltz is an excellent listen in terms of pitching both in the majors and developing kids. Of course, the first thing some people do is brush aside what he says because of his elbow surgeries saying he doesn't know what he's talking about because he got hurt. But, the reality is, he came back and had a successful second career as a closer after recovery and then returned to the rotation for a bit. He shares both what he did right and what he learned from his mistakes. He flat out knows pitching.
absolutely right, here he is throwing mostly fastballs but just changing speeds and locating his spots. Couldn't the mets use a guy like him right now, able to give you 7+ innings and give your BP a break!
back to 1970s and 1980s levels even in the era of municipal national park stadiums giving way to bandboxes while hitters have gotten stronger (undectible PEDs or not, guys didnt look like Cespedes when Seaver pitched).
To hold serve on the arms race under those conditions is pretty impressive. Pitchers now are better than they were in Seaver's era. I think that's what's somewhat missing from his analysis.
is not understanding the game. The speed of pitches may have increased on average, but hitters catch up to those advances. The basic premise that simply throwing hard won't last long both physically and in terms of getting guys out is sound and unchanged. Of course, terrible (hanging, flat, etc.) off speed stuff will get crushed. But, developing a decent off speed and/or breaking pitch is the way to remain successful. Decade after decade, on average, batters can be gotten out with the breaking stuff away. Of course, if you have an average or worse fastball, then your other pitchers better be A+. but, with a good fastball, if you learn how to pitch, and not throw, you can be very successful for a very long time with the compliment of the other pitches.
Pitching vs. throwing means location, control, changing speeds, setting guys up, having an actual gameplan, etc. It also means you have a better chance of long term success because you are not reliant on the heavy fastball. So, as your speed fades, you can more easily adapt.
was on with Francesca a week or two back and gave a great interview on the problem with today's pitchers. He hates the way the young guys are handled.
Smoltz is an excellent listen in terms of pitching both in the majors and developing kids. Of course, the first thing some people do is brush aside what he says because of his elbow surgeries saying he doesn't know what he's talking about because he got hurt. But, the reality is, he came back and had a successful second career as a closer after recovery and then returned to the rotation for a bit. He shares both what he did right and what he learned from his mistakes. He flat out knows pitching.
is that today's pitchers, on average, seem to be trying to hit max effort/velocity too often and too early in games. He suggest throwing most pitches at about 85% effort for the balance of the game and only dialing it up a few times, when it is really called for. He readily admits to needing to learn this himself as a young pitcher. And he learned from watching the other young pitchers on his team and from Mazzone.
MLB didn't always teach young pitchers to pitch back in the day, particularly if the came up throwing heat. Don Gullett?
And 5'5" 140 pound shortstops (outside of Freddy Patek) were the exception even way back. Frank Howard, Killebrew, Stargell, Mantle, Jim Rice, Willie Horton (Detroit, not Los Angeles) (I could go on) could deposit a pitch 475 feet away just as today's hitters can.
is that today's pitchers, on average, seem to be trying to hit max effort/velocity too often and too early in games. He suggest throwing most pitches at about 85% effort for the balance of the game and only dialing it up a few times, when it is really called for. He readily admits to needing to learn this himself as a young pitcher. And he learned from watching the other young pitchers on his team and from Mazzone.
Ron Darling always makes that type of point as well. He said he rarely threw max effort more than 7 or 8 times a game, that if he had to do more often than that he knew he was losing
Plenty of starting pitchers with less than electric stuff continue to succeed in the current era. To say that's an obsolete pitching style is ridiculous. Just look at the NL ERA leader last year and the AL CY.
Turning to the bullpen early is also much more prevalent now so starting pitchers are approaching max effort more often. It's a change in coaching philosophy that has translated to higher velocities across the board. That is the bigger issue in my opinion.
MLB didn't always teach young pitchers to pitch back in the day, particularly if the came up throwing heat. Don Gullett?
And 5'5" 140 pound shortstops (outside of Freddy Patek) were the exception even way back. Frank Howard, Killebrew, Stargell, Mantle, Jim Rice, Willie Horton (Detroit, not Los Angeles) (I could go on) could deposit a pitch 475 feet away just as today's hitters can.
I said turn of the century. I was talking about the guys in the early 1900s.
MLB didn't always teach young pitchers to pitch back in the day, particularly if the came up throwing heat. Don Gullett?
And 5'5" 140 pound shortstops (outside of Freddy Patek) were the exception even way back. Frank Howard, Killebrew, Stargell, Mantle, Jim Rice, Willie Horton (Detroit, not Los Angeles) (I could go on) could deposit a pitch 475 feet away just as today's hitters can.
I said turn of the century. I was talking about the guys in the early 1900s.
I never realized Seaver pitched in the early 1900's
And 5'5" 140 pound shortstops (outside of Freddy Patek) were the exception even way back. Frank Howard, Killebrew, Stargell, Mantle, Jim Rice, Willie Horton (Detroit, not Los Angeles) (I could go on) could deposit a pitch 475 feet away just as today's hitters can.
is that today's pitchers, on average, seem to be trying to hit max effort/velocity too often and too early in games. He suggest throwing most pitches at about 85% effort for the balance of the game and only dialing it up a few times, when it is really called for. He readily admits to needing to learn this himself as a young pitcher. And he learned from watching the other young pitchers on his team and from Mazzone.
Ron Darling always makes that type of point as well. He said he rarely threw max effort more than 7 or 8 times a game, that if he had to do more often than that he knew he was losing
of course Darling was facing teams with maybe 1-2 power hitters and got to pitch in mostly pitcher friendly parks. Take 1986 for example..the best offense in the NL was his own...and the second best offense (Philly) had only one guy with more than 20 home runs.
MLB didn't always teach young pitchers to pitch back in the day, particularly if the came up throwing heat. Don Gullett?
And 5'5" 140 pound shortstops (outside of Freddy Patek) were the exception even way back. Frank Howard, Killebrew, Stargell, Mantle, Jim Rice, Willie Horton (Detroit, not Los Angeles) (I could go on) could deposit a pitch 475 feet away just as today's hitters can.
I said turn of the century. I was talking about the guys in the early 1900s.
I never realized Seaver pitched in the early 1900's
I didnt say Seaver's era. Read better, be less snotty.
counterpoint: modern hitters will devour the softer shit that most pitchers of Seaver's era were getting away with.
It's like when I look back at turn of the century pitchers. Wow! Great job not getting knocked around by a 5'5 140 lbs. short stop. Kudos.
Could not disagree with you more. Seaver's point was you pitch with your head, not your physical ability. Seaver would more than succeed in today's game. He knew how to 'pitch' rather than throw.
for one thing, teams venerate velocity right now. A guy who hits 97 is going to get a whole lot more looks than a guy topping out at 91, even if the guy throwing 91 is getting better results. The arb and free agency system also encourages teams to get the most out of players in the short term, which means they'll take a max effort guy even if they know he might burn out at 31, because at 31 he'll be someone else's $50 mil mistake.
For two, the approach of hitters has changed a lot. Junk-ballers nibbling around the plate might get tattooed, but players nowadays are much more selective. They'll go deep into counts, they'll take walks, so having a 90 MPH FB and good command isn't enough. Your command has to be great or you're going to end up issuing free passes.
Is there a team money balling this pitch dont throw concept
about is getting away from throwing as hard as possible for as long as possible and getting back to pitching, hitting spots, changing speeds and location.
Pitchers have always complained about current pitchers
No matter what generation it's been. Pitchers today are FAR more talented, as a whole, then ever. With the increase in "strikeouts are OK" mentality for hitters, pitchers don't have to know how to "pitch" as much as earlier generations.
But the bottom line is quite simple. It is really, really hard to be the top five person in the world at anything. Same goes for pitching...
for one thing, teams venerate velocity right now. A guy who hits 97 is going to get a whole lot more looks than a guy topping out at 91, even if the guy throwing 91 is getting better results. The arb and free agency system also encourages teams to get the most out of players in the short term, which means they'll take a max effort guy even if they know he might burn out at 31, because at 31 he'll be someone else's $50 mil mistake.
For two, the approach of hitters has changed a lot. Junk-ballers nibbling around the plate might get tattooed, but players nowadays are much more selective. They'll go deep into counts, they'll take walks, so having a 90 MPH FB and good command isn't enough. Your command has to be great or you're going to end up issuing free passes.
The point is that a max effort guy is most likely not getting sustained results even in the short term. They either flame out, get hurt, or are inconsistent.
about is getting away from throwing as hard as possible for as long as possible and getting back to pitching, hitting spots, changing speeds and location.
Precisely. Seaver was never a junk baller, and that is not what he is advocating.
Loved watching that guy work - sandpaper in the glove, a little Vaseline on the cap, a wad of spit, and of course, the infamous "puff ball" where he would jostle the rosin bag in his pitching hand for 30 seconds or so until he had a handful of rosin that he left in his pitching hand and then throw it with the ball making it hard to pick up as it came out of a cloud of white dust.
I remember when he slid across home plate and a small jar of Vaseline fell out of his coat pocket and he had to go back and pick it up in front of the umpire. Who knows how much of his antics were for mental reasons. No batter went up against him without thinking he was doctoring the baseball even if he wasn't. Just his wiping his eyebrows, then the back of his neck, then the brim of his hat and other places routine before each pitch made the batter suspicious.
The puff ball was my favorite thing he did. He finally got ejected for throwing it and was warned he'd be ejected the first time he tried it again. Hitter's complained bitterly about it because they couldn't pick the ball up until it was too late.
He really was the very definition of a "junk baller". But he managed to win a lot of games and found himself in the Hall of Fame in Cooperstown.
but you're going to get more chances throwing an erratic 97 than a consistent 90. Very few pitchers get to the bigs with pinpoint control. Control is something honed over time. Keuchel is considered a top control pitcher in baseball (when he's on), but he had a 4.1 BB/9 in his rookie half-season and a 3.0 in his first full season, and he wasn't effective in either. He had continued opportunities only because Houston was that bad - their opening day starter was Bud bleeping Norris. Likewise Arrieta was 4.3 and 4.4 BB/9 in his first two seasons in the bigs. If you throw 90 MPH and you average 3.5+ BB/9, you're not going to keep getting chances, it's that simple.
When I was a kid, I read Christy Mathewson's autobiography.
He advised pitchers to basically "save their stuff" for when they got in a jam. Put the ball in play, let the fielders help you, bear down when you have to. In his time, that worked.
Nowadays, though, most guys can hit the ball out of the park, so most pitchers have to bear down on almost every batter. Pitchers are putting more strain on their arms than 110 years ago, or 50 years ago, or even 20 years ago. On the other hand, there are a lot more decent pitchers today. Even in the mid-80s you'd salivate if your team could get to the other team's middle relievers. Nowadays, not so much.
Here's a guy who threw 100 MPH for 27 years and was still touching triple digits when he was 46 years old.
Power pitchers usually have short careers because they blow out their arms. If they don't blow out their arms, they tail off considerably after a few years in the bigs.
It still amazes me that Ryan could stay healthy that long and throw that hard at 46 years old. Most pitchers are done by their mid-30s unless they've developed some trick pitches (Neikro, etc.)
Here's a guy who threw 100 MPH for 27 years and was still touching triple digits when he was 46 years old.
Power pitchers usually have short careers because they blow out their arms. If they don't blow out their arms, they tail off considerably after a few years in the bigs.
It still amazes me that Ryan could stay healthy that long and throw that hard at 46 years old. Most pitchers are done by their mid-30s unless they've developed some trick pitches (Neikro, etc.)
Ryan tried to recreate his power and stamina with kids in the Texas org, and the results were mixed. Jeff Passan's book The Arm talks about a lot of the different approaches to development, and the theories about why injuries seem to be mushrooming. He doesn't have any particular answers except that year-round baseball and the showcase circuit for pre-teens are both evil. Probably true.
Set the Texas Rangers back 4 years with his plan to not baby his staff and the long toss program. The Arms they had all faded fast. Pitch count is a reality in todays game.
RE: When I was a kid, I read Christy Mathewson's autobiography.
He advised pitchers to basically "save their stuff" for when they got in a jam. Put the ball in play, let the fielders help you, bear down when you have to. In his time, that worked.
Nowadays, though, most guys can hit the ball out of the park, so most pitchers have to bear down on almost every batter. Pitchers are putting more strain on their arms than 110 years ago, or 50 years ago, or even 20 years ago. On the other hand, there are a lot more decent pitchers today. Even in the mid-80s you'd salivate if your team could get to the other team's middle relievers. Nowadays, not so much.
Very good post. I'd also throw in, on the money side, the valuing of advanced stats for guys next contract probably encourages them to treat every at bat like it's high pressure. That 2 out walk to the 8 hitter looks bad in your advanced stats, less so in real life.
Here's a guy who threw 100 MPH for 27 years and was still touching triple digits when he was 46 years old.
Power pitchers usually have short careers because they blow out their arms. If they don't blow out their arms, they tail off considerably after a few years in the bigs.
It still amazes me that Ryan could stay healthy that long and throw that hard at 46 years old. Most pitchers are done by their mid-30s unless they've developed some trick pitches (Neikro, etc.)
I read an article years ago where Seaver accredited the Mets old pitching coach Rube Walker with instilling in them some things that helped he, Ryan, Koosman all have such long careers. I don't remember the details but it is amazing they all came from the same teachings.
Hitting is timing and pitching is upsetting that timing. I still think that's the proper way to look at it.
So true - the difference between hitting an 88 mph fastball vs a 102 mph fastball is how far the ball goes after the batter connects.
I used to watch Dave Righetti pitch and he could toy with a 100 mph. Unfortunately, he threw the same pitch every time and it had zero movement so man could a good hitter hit it a long way. He had some good games and even a no-hitter, but if you took a string from his hand to the catcher's mitt to trace his fastball, it would be a tight straight string.
Since there is so much emphasis on speed these days, I wonder what Aaron Hicks could do if he was brought in to relieve a pitcher. His throw was clocked at 105.5 mph. That's insane.
A guy throwing a 95 mph fastball that has unnatural movement is much nastier to try and hit than a 100 mph fastball with no movement down the middle of the pike.
As I pointed out in an earlier post, Rick Reuschel had an incredible career and he readily admits that he threw every pitch at a different speed. What made him so successful was the fact that his arm speed and delivery was identical whether throwing 76, 88, 72, or 90. And he had an easy throwing delivery. If you just took a swipe at a 75 mph fastball then faced that same slow easy delivery and get a 90 mph fastball - you get all out of kinter as a hitter. Fastest baseball thrown in history - ( New Window )
There are probably plenty of good pitchers from the past
1) First of all, Ryan is an extreme exception, not a rule.
2) The biggest factor to Ryan's long career at that level was his mechanics. He maximized his legs; he was nowhere near all arm.
3) Combined with that was an incredible work ethic. I really don't think any pitcher ever worked harder than him.
4) All that said, his early career was very inconsistent. He struggled because he had poor control and concentrated more on throwing hard. The second half of his career he learned how to pitch and also developed much better control. A similar example is Randy Johnson.
5) I said a few years ago, if the Rangers staff responded, Ryan would have ended up being the most influential executive in sports on the last 25 years. IT didn't work out, but they did develop a couple of good young pitchers. It just didn't work organization-wide the way he intended.
RE: RE: When I was a kid, I read Christy Mathewson's autobiography.
He advised pitchers to basically "save their stuff" for when they got in a jam. Put the ball in play, let the fielders help you, bear down when you have to. In his time, that worked.
Nowadays, though, most guys can hit the ball out of the park, so most pitchers have to bear down on almost every batter. Pitchers are putting more strain on their arms than 110 years ago, or 50 years ago, or even 20 years ago. On the other hand, there are a lot more decent pitchers today. Even in the mid-80s you'd salivate if your team could get to the other team's middle relievers. Nowadays, not so much.
Very good post. I'd also throw in, on the money side, the valuing of advanced stats for guys next contract probably encourages them to treat every at bat like it's high pressure. That 2 out walk to the 8 hitter looks bad in your advanced stats, less so in real life.
I think it's the opposite, actually. That walk is just another walk (unless there is a specific stat about walks to the bottom 1/3 of the lineup after the 6th inning) or something like that readily used. But, the reality is walks like that tend to come around and hurt you more often than not. It's when that walk shows up in another earned run and add to your WHIP when it helps extend an inning.
Here's a guy who threw 100 MPH for 27 years and was still touching triple digits when he was 46 years old.
Power pitchers usually have short careers because they blow out their arms. If they don't blow out their arms, they tail off considerably after a few years in the bigs.
It still amazes me that Ryan could stay healthy that long and throw that hard at 46 years old. Most pitchers are done by their mid-30s unless they've developed some trick pitches (Neikro, etc.)
Ryan tried to recreate his power and stamina with kids in the Texas org, and the results were mixed. Jeff Passan's book The Arm talks about a lot of the different approaches to development, and the theories about why injuries seem to be mushrooming. He doesn't have any particular answers except that year-round baseball and the showcase circuit for pre-teens are both evil. Probably true.
The last points about developing teens is also what Smoltz talks about passionately. First off, he recommends not playing only baseball. Second, he recommends not only pitching; play other positions as it is all those throws in the field and pin practice that really help develop the arm. He feels that only pitching and practicing pitching is contributing to more injuries.
The last points about developing teens is also what Smoltz talks about passionately. First off, he recommends not playing only baseball. Second, he recommends not only pitching; play other positions as it is all those throws in the field and pin practice that really help develop the arm. He feels that only pitching and practicing pitching is contributing to more injuries.
I think this is a big reason. When I was young everybody played 2-3 sports. Baseball was what you did in the spring. Now you have kids specializing at a young age and pitching year round. That's not a healthy thing for an adult arm, much less a still developing kid.
BTW: for various reasons including military service, Ryan didn't start throwing a lot of innings until he was 25. Probably a factor in why he was able to pitch so long.
As with most things, it's a confluence of a lot of different factors
Kids who show potential play a LOT more baseball at the lower levels now than ever before. So they pitch more.
Then you don't get scouted by topping out at 85.
Velocity is what everyone wants to see. The control guys squeak into the mid-late rounds and might languish in the minors because they don't stand out enough to ever get the call up. There's a negative stigma them. The terms "junkballer" "soft-tosser". Nobody wants to be that. So of course it's all about the radar gun.
Also, IMO, we just left a generation of baseball where guys were juicing up like freaks to hit 60 bombs a year. Pitchers want to make money too. You had to be able to get those hitters out to get paid. As the hitters changed, the pitchers had to find ways to keep up. And now power pitching has become the rule, not the exception. In order for it to ever change, you change it from the lower levels. Bring the kids up in a system where velocity isn't wildly weight ahead of control and you'll see more control pitchers. But it won't ever really go away, since today's hitters are too good even if they aren't cheating.
whose fastball is about 90 mph, but he manages to keep his era under 2.0 and wins games. Last year he was 14-4 with an era of 1.73.
This year he's only pitched 2 games and did not get a decision in either. His era at present is 1.64 (not sure why he hasn't pitched more unless he's injured or something or they moved him to the bull pen).
Anyway, he varies speed, throws a couple of other pitches well, and uses his brain to work a batter. In a way, he reminds me of Mike Mussina in his pitching style except that Enns is left handed. Both used speed variation to throw batters off kilter. Mussina was famous for his off-speed pitches and nibbling corners with a moving 90 mph fast ball.
But for whatever reason, the Yankees leave him in the minors and focus on the guys who throw in the high 90's or can top 100 mph. Doesn't seem right.
whose fastball is about 90 mph, but he manages to keep his era under 2.0 and wins games. Last year he was 14-4 with an era of 1.73.
This year he's only pitched 2 games and did not get a decision in either. His era at present is 1.64 (not sure why he hasn't pitched more unless he's injured or something or they moved him to the bull pen).
Anyway, he varies speed, throws a couple of other pitches well, and uses his brain to work a batter. In a way, he reminds me of Mike Mussina in his pitching style except that Enns is left handed. Both used speed variation to throw batters off kilter. Mussina was famous for his off-speed pitches and nibbling corners with a moving 90 mph fast ball.
But for whatever reason, the Yankees leave him in the minors and focus on the guys who throw in the high 90's or can top 100 mph. Doesn't seem right.
Here's a guy who threw 100 MPH for 27 years and was still touching triple digits when he was 46 years old.
Power pitchers usually have short careers because they blow out their arms. If they don't blow out their arms, they tail off considerably after a few years in the bigs.
It still amazes me that Ryan could stay healthy that long and throw that hard at 46 years old. Most pitchers are done by their mid-30s unless they've developed some trick pitches (Neikro, etc.)
60's Mets organization. Ryan, Seaver, Koosman, MacGraw all pitched into their 40's. Somebody in that organization taught those guys how to pitch.
Here's a guy who threw 100 MPH for 27 years and was still touching triple digits when he was 46 years old.
Power pitchers usually have short careers because they blow out their arms. If they don't blow out their arms, they tail off considerably after a few years in the bigs.
It still amazes me that Ryan could stay healthy that long and throw that hard at 46 years old. Most pitchers are done by their mid-30s unless they've developed some trick pitches (Neikro, etc.)
60's Mets organization. Ryan, Seaver, Koosman, MacGraw all pitched into their 40's. Somebody in that organization taught those guys how to pitch.
Another aspect of this is that those guys in the 60s probably pitched through situations that would medically end a player's season today.
We know more and see more about what goes in inside the arm and shoulder than they ever did. No question in my mind those old timers felt something that today would get an MRI or surgery, but back then all you could do was ice and rest and get back out there in a week. More starts and innings pitched through simply not having the medical know-how to know better.
Here's a guy who threw 100 MPH for 27 years and was still touching triple digits when he was 46 years old.
Power pitchers usually have short careers because they blow out their arms. If they don't blow out their arms, they tail off considerably after a few years in the bigs.
It still amazes me that Ryan could stay healthy that long and throw that hard at 46 years old. Most pitchers are done by their mid-30s unless they've developed some trick pitches (Neikro, etc.)
60's Mets organization. Ryan, Seaver, Koosman, MacGraw all pitched into their 40's. Somebody in that organization taught those guys how to pitch.
I posted earlier in the thread that years ago I read where Seaver pointed that out and credits pitching coach Rube Walker for that very thing.
It's like when I look back at turn of the century pitchers. Wow! Great job not getting knocked around by a 5'5 140 lbs. short stop. Kudos.
It's like when I look back at turn of the century pitchers. Wow! Great job not getting knocked around by a 5'5 140 lbs. short stop. Kudos.
I guess you didn't see what junk ball pitchers did to the Yanks the last few games? Or maybe what Montgomery did to KC or what Vargas has done to every team not called the Yankees. Dallas Keuchel?
Greg Maddux is a HOF pitcher not breaking a pane of glass, Andy Pettitte, Jimmy Key and Mike Mussina were close to HOF status.
absolutely right, here he is throwing mostly fastballs but just changing speeds and locating his spots. Couldn't the mets use a guy like him right now, able to give you 7+ innings and give your BP a break!
Oh well. Still love Tom Seaver.. and I think he's right about this. It doesn't mean don't throw mid to upper 90s once in a while. But pick the moments.
Quote:
counterpoint: modern hitters will devour the softer shit that most pitchers of Seaver's era were getting away with.
It's like when I look back at turn of the century pitchers. Wow! Great job not getting knocked around by a 5'5 140 lbs. short stop. Kudos.
I guess you didn't see what junk ball pitchers did to the Yanks the last few games? Or maybe what Montgomery did to KC or what Vargas has done to every team not called the Yankees. Dallas Keuchel?
Greg Maddux is a HOF pitcher not breaking a pane of glass, Andy Pettitte, Jimmy Key and Mike Mussina were close to HOF status.
Some guys are exceptions. It isnt good advice to say "dont throw super hard, just have Maddux's pinpoint control". The data is that for the most part the hard throwers are more effective. Teams arent forcing these guys to fireball it. They're just promoting the most effective players.
Rick Reuschel used to fascinate me as he had tremendous success with an easy motion (very deceptive) and throwing pitches that looked more like softballs. He could throw the ball a little over 90 mph, but instead, alternated the speed from 79, to 88, to 83, to 87, to 80, etc. And every pitch looked identical.
Then there was David LaRoche who would pitch like he was throwing a shot put and called it the "La Lob". Made me laugh to see him screw Gorman Thomas right into the ground swinging at a 30 MPH pitch.
Deception is a huge part of pitching. Today it's all about speed and alternating east/west; north/south, etc.
The - ( New Window )
Quote:
Or they wont be pitching past 31
absolutely right, here he is throwing mostly fastballs but just changing speeds and locating his spots. Couldn't the mets use a guy like him right now, able to give you 7+ innings and give your BP a break!
Feel free to take him back.
they should take PEDs like he did?
To hold serve on the arms race under those conditions is pretty impressive. Pitchers now are better than they were in Seaver's era. I think that's what's somewhat missing from his analysis.
Pitching vs. throwing means location, control, changing speeds, setting guys up, having an actual gameplan, etc. It also means you have a better chance of long term success because you are not reliant on the heavy fastball. So, as your speed fades, you can more easily adapt.
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was on with Francesca a week or two back and gave a great interview on the problem with today's pitchers. He hates the way the young guys are handled.
Smoltz is an excellent listen in terms of pitching both in the majors and developing kids. Of course, the first thing some people do is brush aside what he says because of his elbow surgeries saying he doesn't know what he's talking about because he got hurt. But, the reality is, he came back and had a successful second career as a closer after recovery and then returned to the rotation for a bit. He shares both what he did right and what he learned from his mistakes. He flat out knows pitching.
Just dont take his grooming tips
And 5'5" 140 pound shortstops (outside of Freddy Patek) were the exception even way back. Frank Howard, Killebrew, Stargell, Mantle, Jim Rice, Willie Horton (Detroit, not Los Angeles) (I could go on) could deposit a pitch 475 feet away just as today's hitters can.
Ron Darling always makes that type of point as well. He said he rarely threw max effort more than 7 or 8 times a game, that if he had to do more often than that he knew he was losing
Turning to the bullpen early is also much more prevalent now so starting pitchers are approaching max effort more often. It's a change in coaching philosophy that has translated to higher velocities across the board. That is the bigger issue in my opinion.
And 5'5" 140 pound shortstops (outside of Freddy Patek) were the exception even way back. Frank Howard, Killebrew, Stargell, Mantle, Jim Rice, Willie Horton (Detroit, not Los Angeles) (I could go on) could deposit a pitch 475 feet away just as today's hitters can.
I said turn of the century. I was talking about the guys in the early 1900s.
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MLB didn't always teach young pitchers to pitch back in the day, particularly if the came up throwing heat. Don Gullett?
And 5'5" 140 pound shortstops (outside of Freddy Patek) were the exception even way back. Frank Howard, Killebrew, Stargell, Mantle, Jim Rice, Willie Horton (Detroit, not Los Angeles) (I could go on) could deposit a pitch 475 feet away just as today's hitters can.
I said turn of the century. I was talking about the guys in the early 1900s.
I never realized Seaver pitched in the early 1900's
And 5'5" 140 pound shortstops (outside of Freddy Patek) were the exception even way back. Frank Howard, Killebrew, Stargell, Mantle, Jim Rice, Willie Horton (Detroit, not Los Angeles) (I could go on) could deposit a pitch 475 feet away just as today's hitters can.
None of those examples were shortstops.
# of Teams with 10+ home runs from SS position:
1976: 2
1986: 9
1996: 15
2006: 19
2016: 21
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is that today's pitchers, on average, seem to be trying to hit max effort/velocity too often and too early in games. He suggest throwing most pitches at about 85% effort for the balance of the game and only dialing it up a few times, when it is really called for. He readily admits to needing to learn this himself as a young pitcher. And he learned from watching the other young pitchers on his team and from Mazzone.
Ron Darling always makes that type of point as well. He said he rarely threw max effort more than 7 or 8 times a game, that if he had to do more often than that he knew he was losing
of course Darling was facing teams with maybe 1-2 power hitters and got to pitch in mostly pitcher friendly parks. Take 1986 for example..the best offense in the NL was his own...and the second best offense (Philly) had only one guy with more than 20 home runs.
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In comment 13483223 njm said:
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MLB didn't always teach young pitchers to pitch back in the day, particularly if the came up throwing heat. Don Gullett?
And 5'5" 140 pound shortstops (outside of Freddy Patek) were the exception even way back. Frank Howard, Killebrew, Stargell, Mantle, Jim Rice, Willie Horton (Detroit, not Los Angeles) (I could go on) could deposit a pitch 475 feet away just as today's hitters can.
I said turn of the century. I was talking about the guys in the early 1900s.
I never realized Seaver pitched in the early 1900's
I didnt say Seaver's era. Read better, be less snotty.
It's like when I look back at turn of the century pitchers. Wow! Great job not getting knocked around by a 5'5 140 lbs. short stop. Kudos.
Could not disagree with you more. Seaver's point was you pitch with your head, not your physical ability. Seaver would more than succeed in today's game. He knew how to 'pitch' rather than throw.
For two, the approach of hitters has changed a lot. Junk-ballers nibbling around the plate might get tattooed, but players nowadays are much more selective. They'll go deep into counts, they'll take walks, so having a 90 MPH FB and good command isn't enough. Your command has to be great or you're going to end up issuing free passes.
But the bottom line is quite simple. It is really, really hard to be the top five person in the world at anything. Same goes for pitching...
For two, the approach of hitters has changed a lot. Junk-ballers nibbling around the plate might get tattooed, but players nowadays are much more selective. They'll go deep into counts, they'll take walks, so having a 90 MPH FB and good command isn't enough. Your command has to be great or you're going to end up issuing free passes.
Loved watching that guy work - sandpaper in the glove, a little Vaseline on the cap, a wad of spit, and of course, the infamous "puff ball" where he would jostle the rosin bag in his pitching hand for 30 seconds or so until he had a handful of rosin that he left in his pitching hand and then throw it with the ball making it hard to pick up as it came out of a cloud of white dust.
I remember when he slid across home plate and a small jar of Vaseline fell out of his coat pocket and he had to go back and pick it up in front of the umpire. Who knows how much of his antics were for mental reasons. No batter went up against him without thinking he was doctoring the baseball even if he wasn't. Just his wiping his eyebrows, then the back of his neck, then the brim of his hat and other places routine before each pitch made the batter suspicious.
The puff ball was my favorite thing he did. He finally got ejected for throwing it and was warned he'd be ejected the first time he tried it again. Hitter's complained bitterly about it because they couldn't pick the ball up until it was too late.
He really was the very definition of a "junk baller". But he managed to win a lot of games and found himself in the Hall of Fame in Cooperstown.
Nowadays, though, most guys can hit the ball out of the park, so most pitchers have to bear down on almost every batter. Pitchers are putting more strain on their arms than 110 years ago, or 50 years ago, or even 20 years ago. On the other hand, there are a lot more decent pitchers today. Even in the mid-80s you'd salivate if your team could get to the other team's middle relievers. Nowadays, not so much.
Here's a guy who threw 100 MPH for 27 years and was still touching triple digits when he was 46 years old.
Power pitchers usually have short careers because they blow out their arms. If they don't blow out their arms, they tail off considerably after a few years in the bigs.
It still amazes me that Ryan could stay healthy that long and throw that hard at 46 years old. Most pitchers are done by their mid-30s unless they've developed some trick pitches (Neikro, etc.)
Here's a guy who threw 100 MPH for 27 years and was still touching triple digits when he was 46 years old.
Power pitchers usually have short careers because they blow out their arms. If they don't blow out their arms, they tail off considerably after a few years in the bigs.
It still amazes me that Ryan could stay healthy that long and throw that hard at 46 years old. Most pitchers are done by their mid-30s unless they've developed some trick pitches (Neikro, etc.)
Ryan tried to recreate his power and stamina with kids in the Texas org, and the results were mixed. Jeff Passan's book The Arm talks about a lot of the different approaches to development, and the theories about why injuries seem to be mushrooming. He doesn't have any particular answers except that year-round baseball and the showcase circuit for pre-teens are both evil. Probably true.
Nowadays, though, most guys can hit the ball out of the park, so most pitchers have to bear down on almost every batter. Pitchers are putting more strain on their arms than 110 years ago, or 50 years ago, or even 20 years ago. On the other hand, there are a lot more decent pitchers today. Even in the mid-80s you'd salivate if your team could get to the other team's middle relievers. Nowadays, not so much.
Very good post. I'd also throw in, on the money side, the valuing of advanced stats for guys next contract probably encourages them to treat every at bat like it's high pressure. That 2 out walk to the 8 hitter looks bad in your advanced stats, less so in real life.
Here's a guy who threw 100 MPH for 27 years and was still touching triple digits when he was 46 years old.
Power pitchers usually have short careers because they blow out their arms. If they don't blow out their arms, they tail off considerably after a few years in the bigs.
It still amazes me that Ryan could stay healthy that long and throw that hard at 46 years old. Most pitchers are done by their mid-30s unless they've developed some trick pitches (Neikro, etc.)
I read an article years ago where Seaver accredited the Mets old pitching coach Rube Walker with instilling in them some things that helped he, Ryan, Koosman all have such long careers. I don't remember the details but it is amazing they all came from the same teachings.
So true - the difference between hitting an 88 mph fastball vs a 102 mph fastball is how far the ball goes after the batter connects.
I used to watch Dave Righetti pitch and he could toy with a 100 mph. Unfortunately, he threw the same pitch every time and it had zero movement so man could a good hitter hit it a long way. He had some good games and even a no-hitter, but if you took a string from his hand to the catcher's mitt to trace his fastball, it would be a tight straight string.
Since there is so much emphasis on speed these days, I wonder what Aaron Hicks could do if he was brought in to relieve a pitcher. His throw was clocked at 105.5 mph. That's insane.
A guy throwing a 95 mph fastball that has unnatural movement is much nastier to try and hit than a 100 mph fastball with no movement down the middle of the pike.
As I pointed out in an earlier post, Rick Reuschel had an incredible career and he readily admits that he threw every pitch at a different speed. What made him so successful was the fact that his arm speed and delivery was identical whether throwing 76, 88, 72, or 90. And he had an easy throwing delivery. If you just took a swipe at a 75 mph fastball then faced that same slow easy delivery and get a 90 mph fastball - you get all out of kinter as a hitter.
Fastest baseball thrown in history - ( New Window )
2) The biggest factor to Ryan's long career at that level was his mechanics. He maximized his legs; he was nowhere near all arm.
3) Combined with that was an incredible work ethic. I really don't think any pitcher ever worked harder than him.
4) All that said, his early career was very inconsistent. He struggled because he had poor control and concentrated more on throwing hard. The second half of his career he learned how to pitch and also developed much better control. A similar example is Randy Johnson.
5) I said a few years ago, if the Rangers staff responded, Ryan would have ended up being the most influential executive in sports on the last 25 years. IT didn't work out, but they did develop a couple of good young pitchers. It just didn't work organization-wide the way he intended.
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He advised pitchers to basically "save their stuff" for when they got in a jam. Put the ball in play, let the fielders help you, bear down when you have to. In his time, that worked.
Nowadays, though, most guys can hit the ball out of the park, so most pitchers have to bear down on almost every batter. Pitchers are putting more strain on their arms than 110 years ago, or 50 years ago, or even 20 years ago. On the other hand, there are a lot more decent pitchers today. Even in the mid-80s you'd salivate if your team could get to the other team's middle relievers. Nowadays, not so much.
Very good post. I'd also throw in, on the money side, the valuing of advanced stats for guys next contract probably encourages them to treat every at bat like it's high pressure. That 2 out walk to the 8 hitter looks bad in your advanced stats, less so in real life.
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goes completely against all basic stereotypes.
Here's a guy who threw 100 MPH for 27 years and was still touching triple digits when he was 46 years old.
Power pitchers usually have short careers because they blow out their arms. If they don't blow out their arms, they tail off considerably after a few years in the bigs.
It still amazes me that Ryan could stay healthy that long and throw that hard at 46 years old. Most pitchers are done by their mid-30s unless they've developed some trick pitches (Neikro, etc.)
Ryan tried to recreate his power and stamina with kids in the Texas org, and the results were mixed. Jeff Passan's book The Arm talks about a lot of the different approaches to development, and the theories about why injuries seem to be mushrooming. He doesn't have any particular answers except that year-round baseball and the showcase circuit for pre-teens are both evil. Probably true.
I think this is a big reason. When I was young everybody played 2-3 sports. Baseball was what you did in the spring. Now you have kids specializing at a young age and pitching year round. That's not a healthy thing for an adult arm, much less a still developing kid.
BTW: for various reasons including military service, Ryan didn't start throwing a lot of innings until he was 25. Probably a factor in why he was able to pitch so long.
Then you don't get scouted by topping out at 85.
Velocity is what everyone wants to see. The control guys squeak into the mid-late rounds and might languish in the minors because they don't stand out enough to ever get the call up. There's a negative stigma them. The terms "junkballer" "soft-tosser". Nobody wants to be that. So of course it's all about the radar gun.
Also, IMO, we just left a generation of baseball where guys were juicing up like freaks to hit 60 bombs a year. Pitchers want to make money too. You had to be able to get those hitters out to get paid. As the hitters changed, the pitchers had to find ways to keep up. And now power pitching has become the rule, not the exception. In order for it to ever change, you change it from the lower levels. Bring the kids up in a system where velocity isn't wildly weight ahead of control and you'll see more control pitchers. But it won't ever really go away, since today's hitters are too good even if they aren't cheating.
This year he's only pitched 2 games and did not get a decision in either. His era at present is 1.64 (not sure why he hasn't pitched more unless he's injured or something or they moved him to the bull pen).
Anyway, he varies speed, throws a couple of other pitches well, and uses his brain to work a batter. In a way, he reminds me of Mike Mussina in his pitching style except that Enns is left handed. Both used speed variation to throw batters off kilter. Mussina was famous for his off-speed pitches and nibbling corners with a moving 90 mph fast ball.
But for whatever reason, the Yankees leave him in the minors and focus on the guys who throw in the high 90's or can top 100 mph. Doesn't seem right.
This year he's only pitched 2 games and did not get a decision in either. His era at present is 1.64 (not sure why he hasn't pitched more unless he's injured or something or they moved him to the bull pen).
Anyway, he varies speed, throws a couple of other pitches well, and uses his brain to work a batter. In a way, he reminds me of Mike Mussina in his pitching style except that Enns is left handed. Both used speed variation to throw batters off kilter. Mussina was famous for his off-speed pitches and nibbling corners with a moving 90 mph fast ball.
But for whatever reason, the Yankees leave him in the minors and focus on the guys who throw in the high 90's or can top 100 mph. Doesn't seem right.
Enns is on the DL with a shoulder injury.
Here's a guy who threw 100 MPH for 27 years and was still touching triple digits when he was 46 years old.
Power pitchers usually have short careers because they blow out their arms. If they don't blow out their arms, they tail off considerably after a few years in the bigs.
It still amazes me that Ryan could stay healthy that long and throw that hard at 46 years old. Most pitchers are done by their mid-30s unless they've developed some trick pitches (Neikro, etc.)
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goes completely against all basic stereotypes.
Here's a guy who threw 100 MPH for 27 years and was still touching triple digits when he was 46 years old.
Power pitchers usually have short careers because they blow out their arms. If they don't blow out their arms, they tail off considerably after a few years in the bigs.
It still amazes me that Ryan could stay healthy that long and throw that hard at 46 years old. Most pitchers are done by their mid-30s unless they've developed some trick pitches (Neikro, etc.)
60's Mets organization. Ryan, Seaver, Koosman, MacGraw all pitched into their 40's. Somebody in that organization taught those guys how to pitch.
Another aspect of this is that those guys in the 60s probably pitched through situations that would medically end a player's season today.
We know more and see more about what goes in inside the arm and shoulder than they ever did. No question in my mind those old timers felt something that today would get an MRI or surgery, but back then all you could do was ice and rest and get back out there in a week. More starts and innings pitched through simply not having the medical know-how to know better.
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goes completely against all basic stereotypes.
Here's a guy who threw 100 MPH for 27 years and was still touching triple digits when he was 46 years old.
Power pitchers usually have short careers because they blow out their arms. If they don't blow out their arms, they tail off considerably after a few years in the bigs.
It still amazes me that Ryan could stay healthy that long and throw that hard at 46 years old. Most pitchers are done by their mid-30s unless they've developed some trick pitches (Neikro, etc.)
60's Mets organization. Ryan, Seaver, Koosman, MacGraw all pitched into their 40's. Somebody in that organization taught those guys how to pitch.
I posted earlier in the thread that years ago I read where Seaver pointed that out and credits pitching coach Rube Walker for that very thing.