over Vernon and JPP. I am fully convinced that you don't want any football outside the Giants(debatable) and only look at stats. For you to say that JJ Watt is overrated and Beasley is better than our two, I have no other explanation other than you have no clue what you see(which I don't believe to be the case). Beasley is literally a 1 trick pony up to this point. He was solid at getting to the passer and finishing last year, but that's all he can do. Both Vernon and JPP are exceptional against the run(which is what our gameplan dictates first and foremost) and they are both above average pass rushers at a minimum.
Again, our defensive game plan doesn't have these guys pinning their ears back and going after the QB on every play. They need to focus on stopping the run first and they do that exceptionally well. I'd be interested to see the rankings on these guys and the grades on their pass rushing and run stopping in 2016.
You're right, I didn't see a lot of Beasley last year. Is this when you tell me you did?
Every single GM in the NFL would take Beasley over our guys, you know why? Because he was a better player in 2016 and his cap number was not even half of theirs. Any GM that wouldn't trade our guys for Beasley should be fired immediately.
Welcome to BBI, where posters will go to such lengths as to...
- Ignore the salary cap
- Devalue the sack statistic
- Overvalue the nebulous and subjective "pressure" statistic
- Ignore first team All Pro status
...all in order to rationalize exorbitant contracts that our front office gave to good, but not great, players at the second most expensive position on the field.
The rationalization and homerism knows no bounds. If one of Vernon or JPP is as productive in 2017 as Beasley was in 2016, everyone here will go crazy talking about what a genius Reese was.
If you're talking about players sans-salary, I'm not so sure most NFL GM's would take Beasley over Vernon/JPP.
In fact, I bet many wouldn't.
Vernon and JPP are better-rounded players. Defending the run and controlling the edges is a major part of playing DE and our guys are both exceptional in that regard.
Sacks = better player is very.... Madden-ish.
Sacks matter and you like to see your guys rack them up, but its far from the true measure of a defensive player.
Well, the thing is, you're comparing guys who are deployed differently. ATL uses Beasley as an OLB edge rusher which they weren't really doing his first year. It had a lot to do with his sack number increasing so dramatically.
We don't deploy Vernon or JPP the same way.
Vernon and JPP are better two-way players who are fantastic at defending the run. Beasley is more of a pure edge rusher.
Well, the thing is, you're comparing guys who are deployed differently. ATL uses Beasley as an OLB edge rusher which they weren't really doing his first year. It had a lot to do with his sack number increasing so dramatically.
We don't deploy Vernon or JPP the same way.
Vernon and JPP are better two-way players who are fantastic at defending the run. Beasley is more of a pure edge rusher.
I am not making that comparison, the Reddit post is.
Maybe they are better at defending the run. But in a pass happy league is that the type of player that should be paid premier cap space? I would argue not.
But more to the point, I suspect that if we had Beasley and the Falcons had our guys, every poster here would be talking about how Beasley is the better player.
RE: Now everyone except me is an expert on Beasley
Since we are in the trust tree, lets be honest with ourselves. You've made many comments in the past about not watching football outside of the Giants because you don't like the direction of the game. You clearly don't watch a lot of football. You said JJ Watt was overrated and you are basing that solely on his salary and how the defense played without him. JJ Watt is as disruptive of a player as you will find on defense. He and Von Miller are on an island of their own(I think Khalil Mack is on his way).
Other people watch football outside of the Giants. Vic Beastly had success rushing the passer and finishing. That was his job. The Falcons were built to score points and then go after the passer. Similar to the Colts with Dwight Freeney in the Manning era. They were one of the worst run defenses in football and teams couldn't expose that because they were behind so much. Beasley doesn't need to do the things that JPP and Vernon need to do. JPP and Vernon are a major part of why the Giants were one of, if not the best run defense in football last year. JPP(annualized) and Vernon were in the top 5 of tackles in the NFL amongst DE's. JPP(annualized) and Vernon were in the top 5 in sacks in the NFL amongst DE's. Not to mention, JPP and Vernon played over 90% of the snaps and Beasley only 60% so there's that too.
Your only argument is that Beasley is paid less and it really doesn't mean much. He's on a rookie contract and he will either get paid a lot by Atlanta or paid a lot by someone else and Atlanta will get a few good years and it will be a wasted #8 pick. Then they'll have to replace him and hope to hit on another high pick. Not to mention, Beasley is currently counting 4M against the cap, JPP is counting 7.5.
What you are saying is both factually incorrect and logically doesn't make sense. However, yes, Beasley does have more sacks,so.......
Of course edge rushers who can get to the QB have a lot of value in this league. But part of the reason why the Giants defense was so good last year was because they were able to stifle a lot of teams on the ground, which forced them to become more one-dimensional.
I think Vernon and JPP are more well-rounded players than Beasley is.
It seems like the only players you'd ever want to pay are players that we draft that are generational talents (unless he's an asshole, then we don't want to pay him either)
Damon Harrison really isn't a pass rushing DT but I don't think anyone would argue that his value is less because the league is pass-happy. In fact, he was probably one of the best FA signings made league-wide if not the best last year.
No "maybe" here and that kind of comment that makes it obvious you're only looking at the sack numbers. Plenty do the same.
Sometimes there is more going on with a player than a stat. This is one of those cases. Is the guy explosive off the ball? He'll yeah. Does he bring a valuable skill to the table? He'll yeah again but his overall game wasn't better than our guys. He's a much different player and a player with some big holes in his game. Our guys are complete players.
It comes down to praising a guy blindly based on one statt.
You're right, I didn't see a lot of Beasley last year. Is this when you tell me you did?
Every single GM in the NFL would take Beasley over our guys, you know why? Because he was a better player in 2016 and his cap number was not even half of theirs. Any GM that wouldn't trade our guys for Beasley should be fired immediately.
Welcome to BBI, where posters will go to such lengths as to...
- Ignore the salary cap
- Devalue the sack statistic
- Overvalue the nebulous and subjective "pressure" statistic
- Ignore first team All Pro status
...all in order to rationalize exorbitant contracts that our front office gave to good, but not great, players at the second most expensive position on the field.
The rationalization and homerism knows no bounds. If one of Vernon or JPP is as productive in 2017 as Beasley was in 2016, everyone here will go crazy talking about what a genius Reese was.
Sacks haven't mattered as much on this site as soon as JPP stopped getting as many as he used to. Not a coincidence.
I'm not talking about Salary cap or anything other than who was better in 2016. Our guys were better players.
If you want to change that to who do you take going forward or based on cap hit then that's a different argument isn't it?
It was so predictable that Beasley would be a no show in the super bowl. His game consisted of splitting out wide and an outside rush. That is it. He abused a few teams on it. (Piled up sacks vs 3 teams with backup OL) However, he really didn't do it against quality OL and that's what we saw in the SB. He was easily eliminated by a guy who can handle the outside rush. NE OL had bigger problems with Mercilus from HOU because he can do more than just run around an OT.
He need to develop more than just the outside rush. That is all he had in 2016. And his 15 sacks don't make him better than outstanding 2 way DEs. This guy isn't close to Miller and Mack. He's a one trick guy. A valuable guy but he wasn't a better player in 2016 than Vernon and JPP.
Is every WR making more than 4M overpaid because they aren't head and shoulders better than Beckham? Obviously guys on their rookie deals are going to be below market value.
Also, why is using AAV the best metric to judge? Guaranteed money is almost always more important since the later years tend to just inflate the AAV when very few play out their full contracts untouched. Both JPP/Vernon got $10M guaranteed per year of their contract. Von Miller appropriately got more than that despite never hitting the open market (70M gtd/6 years).
In terms of judging performance/value, it would seem to me that:
a) there's no surefire way to quantify which of OV/JPP/Beasley are the best football players (for their past careers or going forward)
b) it's obvious all are good players whom most teams would be happy to have
So what exactly is the argument against OV/JPP? Beasley is better because sacks are the more important stat? Seems to go against the entire point of the original post which exploring value beyond sacks.
But more to the point, I suspect that if we had Beasley and the Falcons had our guys, every poster here would be talking about how Beasley is the better player.
I'm not so sure about that. If Beasley were on our team last year, the need for him to provide run support would have been much greater than it was as a Falcon. I think this is just a product of our offense as much as anything -- we weren't exactly putting our opponents in a position where they'd abandon the run.
I think our 2016 record would have been much worse if our 2016 opponents were more capable of running with consistency against us.
But more to the point, I suspect that if we had Beasley and the Falcons had our guys, every poster here would be talking about how Beasley is the better player.
I'm not so sure about that. If Beasley were on our team last year, the need for him to provide run support would have been much greater than it was as a Falcon. I think this is just a product of our offense as much as anything -- we weren't exactly putting our opponents in a position where they'd abandon the run.
I think our 2016 record would have been much worse if our 2016 opponents were more capable of running with consistency against us.
I think if we had Beasley instead of one or the other we would have been much better off. This team had a terrible time generating a conventional pass rush.
Again, our defensive game plan doesn't have these guys pinning their ears back and going after the QB on every play. They need to focus on stopping the run first and they do that exceptionally well. I'd be interested to see the rankings on these guys and the grades on their pass rushing and run stopping in 2016.
Every single GM in the NFL would take Beasley over our guys, you know why? Because he was a better player in 2016 and his cap number was not even half of theirs. Any GM that wouldn't trade our guys for Beasley should be fired immediately.
Welcome to BBI, where posters will go to such lengths as to...
- Ignore the salary cap
- Devalue the sack statistic
- Overvalue the nebulous and subjective "pressure" statistic
- Ignore first team All Pro status
...all in order to rationalize exorbitant contracts that our front office gave to good, but not great, players at the second most expensive position on the field.
The rationalization and homerism knows no bounds. If one of Vernon or JPP is as productive in 2017 as Beasley was in 2016, everyone here will go crazy talking about what a genius Reese was.
In fact, I bet many wouldn't.
Vernon and JPP are better-rounded players. Defending the run and controlling the edges is a major part of playing DE and our guys are both exceptional in that regard.
Sacks = better player is very.... Madden-ish.
Sacks matter and you like to see your guys rack them up, but its far from the true measure of a defensive player.
We don't deploy Vernon or JPP the same way.
Vernon and JPP are better two-way players who are fantastic at defending the run. Beasley is more of a pure edge rusher.
We don't deploy Vernon or JPP the same way.
Vernon and JPP are better two-way players who are fantastic at defending the run. Beasley is more of a pure edge rusher.
I am not making that comparison, the Reddit post is.
Maybe they are better at defending the run. But in a pass happy league is that the type of player that should be paid premier cap space? I would argue not.
But more to the point, I suspect that if we had Beasley and the Falcons had our guys, every poster here would be talking about how Beasley is the better player.
Since we are in the trust tree, lets be honest with ourselves. You've made many comments in the past about not watching football outside of the Giants because you don't like the direction of the game. You clearly don't watch a lot of football. You said JJ Watt was overrated and you are basing that solely on his salary and how the defense played without him. JJ Watt is as disruptive of a player as you will find on defense. He and Von Miller are on an island of their own(I think Khalil Mack is on his way).
Other people watch football outside of the Giants. Vic Beastly had success rushing the passer and finishing. That was his job. The Falcons were built to score points and then go after the passer. Similar to the Colts with Dwight Freeney in the Manning era. They were one of the worst run defenses in football and teams couldn't expose that because they were behind so much. Beasley doesn't need to do the things that JPP and Vernon need to do. JPP and Vernon are a major part of why the Giants were one of, if not the best run defense in football last year. JPP(annualized) and Vernon were in the top 5 of tackles in the NFL amongst DE's. JPP(annualized) and Vernon were in the top 5 in sacks in the NFL amongst DE's. Not to mention, JPP and Vernon played over 90% of the snaps and Beasley only 60% so there's that too.
Your only argument is that Beasley is paid less and it really doesn't mean much. He's on a rookie contract and he will either get paid a lot by Atlanta or paid a lot by someone else and Atlanta will get a few good years and it will be a wasted #8 pick. Then they'll have to replace him and hope to hit on another high pick. Not to mention, Beasley is currently counting 4M against the cap, JPP is counting 7.5.
What you are saying is both factually incorrect and logically doesn't make sense. However, yes, Beasley does have more sacks,so.......
If grandma had balls, she'd be grandpa.
Of course edge rushers who can get to the QB have a lot of value in this league. But part of the reason why the Giants defense was so good last year was because they were able to stifle a lot of teams on the ground, which forced them to become more one-dimensional.
I think Vernon and JPP are more well-rounded players than Beasley is.
It seems like the only players you'd ever want to pay are players that we draft that are generational talents (unless he's an asshole, then we don't want to pay him either)
Damon Harrison really isn't a pass rushing DT but I don't think anyone would argue that his value is less because the league is pass-happy. In fact, he was probably one of the best FA signings made league-wide if not the best last year.
Our guys are 2 of the best in the league there.
Beasley is one of the worst.
No "maybe" here and that kind of comment that makes it obvious you're only looking at the sack numbers. Plenty do the same.
Sometimes there is more going on with a player than a stat. This is one of those cases. Is the guy explosive off the ball? He'll yeah. Does he bring a valuable skill to the table? He'll yeah again but his overall game wasn't better than our guys. He's a much different player and a player with some big holes in his game. Our guys are complete players.
It comes down to praising a guy blindly based on one statt.
Every single GM in the NFL would take Beasley over our guys, you know why? Because he was a better player in 2016 and his cap number was not even half of theirs. Any GM that wouldn't trade our guys for Beasley should be fired immediately.
Welcome to BBI, where posters will go to such lengths as to...
- Ignore the salary cap
- Devalue the sack statistic
- Overvalue the nebulous and subjective "pressure" statistic
- Ignore first team All Pro status
...all in order to rationalize exorbitant contracts that our front office gave to good, but not great, players at the second most expensive position on the field.
The rationalization and homerism knows no bounds. If one of Vernon or JPP is as productive in 2017 as Beasley was in 2016, everyone here will go crazy talking about what a genius Reese was.
Sacks haven't mattered as much on this site as soon as JPP stopped getting as many as he used to. Not a coincidence.
If you want to change that to who do you take going forward or based on cap hit then that's a different argument isn't it?
It was so predictable that Beasley would be a no show in the super bowl. His game consisted of splitting out wide and an outside rush. That is it. He abused a few teams on it. (Piled up sacks vs 3 teams with backup OL) However, he really didn't do it against quality OL and that's what we saw in the SB. He was easily eliminated by a guy who can handle the outside rush. NE OL had bigger problems with Mercilus from HOU because he can do more than just run around an OT.
He need to develop more than just the outside rush. That is all he had in 2016. And his 15 sacks don't make him better than outstanding 2 way DEs. This guy isn't close to Miller and Mack. He's a one trick guy. A valuable guy but he wasn't a better player in 2016 than Vernon and JPP.
Sacks don't mean "production". There is more to it especially when we're talking about 4-3 DE vs a LB with just a speed rush.
Also, why is using AAV the best metric to judge? Guaranteed money is almost always more important since the later years tend to just inflate the AAV when very few play out their full contracts untouched. Both JPP/Vernon got $10M guaranteed per year of their contract. Von Miller appropriately got more than that despite never hitting the open market (70M gtd/6 years).
In terms of judging performance/value, it would seem to me that:
a) there's no surefire way to quantify which of OV/JPP/Beasley are the best football players (for their past careers or going forward)
b) it's obvious all are good players whom most teams would be happy to have
So what exactly is the argument against OV/JPP? Beasley is better because sacks are the more important stat? Seems to go against the entire point of the original post which exploring value beyond sacks.
But more to the point, I suspect that if we had Beasley and the Falcons had our guys, every poster here would be talking about how Beasley is the better player.
I'm not so sure about that. If Beasley were on our team last year, the need for him to provide run support would have been much greater than it was as a Falcon. I think this is just a product of our offense as much as anything -- we weren't exactly putting our opponents in a position where they'd abandon the run.
I think our 2016 record would have been much worse if our 2016 opponents were more capable of running with consistency against us.
Quote:
But more to the point, I suspect that if we had Beasley and the Falcons had our guys, every poster here would be talking about how Beasley is the better player.
I'm not so sure about that. If Beasley were on our team last year, the need for him to provide run support would have been much greater than it was as a Falcon. I think this is just a product of our offense as much as anything -- we weren't exactly putting our opponents in a position where they'd abandon the run.
I think our 2016 record would have been much worse if our 2016 opponents were more capable of running with consistency against us.
I think if we had Beasley instead of one or the other we would have been much better off. This team had a terrible time generating a conventional pass rush.