Roster Discussion: Backs and TEs

He was a 6th round pick and didn't exactly set the world on fire. Ergo the additions of Ellison and Engram. Remember how last year there were reports that the previous year's 6th round pick, Geremy Davis had made significant strides since his rookie year? How did that turn out?

Including Ellison, I think it's "more likely than not" that the Giants keep four TE's, but Adams isn't a lock to be one of them.

I am not sure he is out of favor with Giants hierarchy.

Engram is such a physical talent that his selection s/b viewed as possible even under a total bpa approach.

Figure some injury will occur with RBs to shake up final spots...

Great improvement to the roster

1. Engram
2. Ellison
3. LaCosse*
4. Adams
5. Tye
6. Thompson

* But LaCosse must have a healthy camp to earn a roster spot.

In comment 13491408 Bob in Newburgh said:

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I am not sure he is out of favor with Giants hierarchy. Engram is such a physical talent that his selection s/b viewed as possible even under a total bpa approach.

Engram wasn't the only physical talent available with the 23rd spot. He may not have been a reach, but he was certainly a "need" pick.
p.s.--Was Tye ever "in favor" with the Giants hierarchy? He is an undrafted free agent who had to make the team on a try-out basis and then climbed the depth chart due to injuries and lack of competition. If the Giants were excited about him, they would not have signed Ellison and drafted Engram. Same with Adams. And LaCosse is a wild card because of the injuries, but we're talking about Jake Ballard type upside when it comes to LaCosse and nothing more.

In comment 13491408 Bob in Newburgh said:

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I am not sure he is out of favor with Giants hierarchy.

I think that if they were high on Tye (no pun intended), they wouldn't have signed Ellison and drafted Engram. Clearly they were looking to upgrade the position.

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Engram is such a physical talent that his selection s/b viewed as possible even under a total bpa approach.

A point I made for the first time shortly after the Senior Bowl. Engram was always my first choice at #23.

during these OTA's. Coaches don't care how a player ended up competing for a job. He wants the very best players under his control and he's looking at their talent, their knowledge of the game, their personal drive, etc.

When the dust settles, Gilbride will take his best players into battle. The only question will be whether he can take 3, 4, or 5 TE's. Regardless of the number given him, he will take his very best players as he sees them.

Engram is the only lock because he's a first round draft pick on a long term contract. Ellison is near lock, but an injury during training could do the same thing to him as it did to Johnson last year. The real battle is between James, LaCosse, and Tye and one of them will have to separate themselves like sifting wheat from chaff. And LaCosse has done well to put a stake in the ground and claim the spot. It could come down to who is the best player on special teams.

As for the RBs, I think Darkwa makes the team based on his ST skills. But he is not a lock.

In comment 13491426 Milton said:

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1. Engram 2. Ellison 3. LaCosse* 4. Adams 5. Tye 6. Thompson * But LaCosse must have a healthy camp to earn a roster spot.

This is like Kerry Wynn being ahead of Devin Taylor. You have an interesting way of ranking players, Milton.

In comment 13491463 mavric said:

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As for the RBs, I think Darkwa makes the team based on his ST skills. But he is not a lock.

With Darkwa and LaCosse it comes down to their ability to stay healthy. With healthy camps, I believe both of them make the roster, but all it would take is one minor injury (a hamstring, sprained MCL, the dreaded sore calf, etc) for the team's patience to reach its expiration date.

player on the Giants board at 23. Did we need a te? yes but there were other needs there. We needed a DT and there were a few. In fact I think I read that Dalvin Thomlinson was rated almost as high by the Giants. We needed a Lber and Foster was there, We needed a rb and Cook was there.

I agree with pretty much all your thoughts regarding the expected makeup of the RBs/TEs on the roster.

I think Shane Smith is a decent FB prospect, but I agree that it probably makes more sense to view Ellison as a TE/FB/H-back type hybrid and keep 3 TE's in addition to him.

Engram is obviously a lock.

Adams isn't a LOCK, but he'd really have to screw up to not be in the top 3. Yes, he was a 6th round pick, but he was a steal as a 6th rounder and was projected to go in the 3rd or the 4th. Geremy Davis was a 6th round pick who was projected as a 7th rounder or UDFA. Huge talent/potential gap there.

Matt LaCosse is essentially the Jonas Seawright of TE's right now. Guy hasn't done a thing on the actual football field (even in preseason) yet everyone wants to annoint him as the second coming. We know what Will Tye is, so I'm completely fine with LaCosse beating him out for the last TE spot, but he needs to stay healthy first. Anyone putting him over Adams right now is insane. At least Adams flashed in glimpses last year and was much more highly regarded coming out of college.

RB's will be Perkins, Vereen, Gallman (yes he's 100% a lock), and Darkwa/Draughn/Abdullah. Abdullah as a major uphill battle but I do like him as a practice squad guy. I think it will essentially come down to whether we feel we want our 4th RB to be more of an every down/short yardage type guy (Darkwa) or a Vereen insurance receiving back type (Draughn). Their skill sets are so different that it will be tough to even compare the two; will be more about skill set preference.

I believe that after Engram and Ellison, Giants are working on a blank slate.

I rather doubt the Organization has an attitude that a 6th round draft choice is inherently advantaged over a UDFA.

I am hoping Ellison is used more as a TE, rather than a FB, and that we find a FB(Smith?) for this roster, which could be a problem with wasting a roster spot again because we will carry 3 qb's.....

Davis showed nothing his rookie year, while Adams gave us glimpses of his potential.....the only strides Davis made, were in practice, and then he was cut....Adams was more fluid than Tye, and a bigger target.....his blocking, though, leaves much to be desired....isn't it time for a new TE coach?

As for the RB's, Perkins replaces the Mirror Ball winner.....Vereen is back, and hopefully stays healthy....Gallman is a rookie, who probably won't really contribute until the end of the season, like Perkins did last season.....the fourth spot is wide open, and may not even be on the roster right now.....

has shown he has ability both last pre-season/ota as well as in the early going this year. IF he can stay healthy I think he will be a contributor on this roster. He can block well and has good hands. More of a possession / blocking TE...I like Will Tye, great story, local kid, but he has a battle to make the roster. Theres a good chance tye and lacosse dont make it. There is also a chance J.Adams gets cut if lacosse and tye both outplay him. but i would not expect him to get released unless he drastically declines or stumbles. It wouldnt blow my mind either if Engram is turned into a WR at somepoint, if that were the case i would expect Ellison, Adams, Lacosse at TE.

As for RB i think Darkwa is here. Droughns is a camp body. Darkwa runs hard and runs north, no BS tip toeing or trying to bounce it outside. and is a good special teamer. He is not afraid of contact and takes care of the rock. He is not a bad pass blocker in the backfield either.

I wouldnt be too shcoked if Vereen was let loose. Not due to performance but more of injury, if he can get out of camp healthy its obviously not an issue, but the tricep really hurt him last year.

If i were making the decisions

RB - Perkins,Darkwa,Vereen 3DRB,Gallman
TE - Ellison(TE/FB), Engram(WR/TE), Adams, Lacosse

mavric said:

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Engram is the only lock because he's a first round draft pick on a long term contract. Ellison is near lock, but an injury during training could do the same thing to him as it did to Johnson last year.

Nonsense. Ellison has $8MM in guaranteed money, which covers not only his bonus and 2017 salary but nearly all of his 2018 salary as well. Of course he could end up on IR if he gets seriously injured. So could Engram, or Perkins, or Eli Manning. Will Johnson was on a short-term deal with a fraction of Ellison's dead money. The only similarity is their position. Besides, Johnson really was hurt. It's not as though he was a bubble player going into camp and got cut because he missed a couple of practices with a twisted ankle.

In comment 13491536 Doomster said:

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Davis showed nothing his rookie year, while Adams gave us glimpses of his potential.....the only strides Davis made, were in practice, and then he was cut.

A valid point no doubt. But there were several reports prior to camp on how much his knowledge of the game and the system had progressed from his rookie year, so there was enthusiasm surrounding his chances. But a 6th round pick is a 6th round pick, so the leash is not a long one. If I had to bet money, I'd bet that Adams makes the roster. I just think at this point they seem to trust LaCosse as a blocker more than they do Tye or Adams, and I think blocking is the trait they will value most behind Engram and Ellison. Of the three of them, however, Adams appears to have the greatest upside if he were to realize all his potential.

In comment 13491473 Gatorade Dunk said:

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This is like Kerry Wynn being ahead of Devin Taylor. You have an interesting way of ranking players, Milton.

I'm still waiting to find out the numbers on Taylor's contract. That will tell us a lot about his job security. If it exceeds the vet minimum and includes guaranteed money, that's a pretty good sign that he will be on the roster come September. If it is at or near the vet minimum and includes no guaranteed money, that's a pretty bad sign. It's not like I have any idea myself on Taylor's value to the team. I confess I'd never even heard of the guy until he visited with the Giants.

catch.

In comment 13491503 Moose and Fury said:

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Adams isn't a LOCK, but he'd really have to screw up to not be in the top 3. Yes, he was a 6th round pick, but he was a steal as a 6th rounder and was projected to go in the 3rd or the 4th. Geremy Davis was a 6th round pick who was projected as a 7th rounder or UDFA. Huge talent/potential gap there.

A 6th round pick is a 6th round pick. It doesn't matter where the draftniks with their limited information projected him to go, when the professionals with their jobs on the line had their say, Davis was taken with the 186th pick and Adams was taken with the 184th pick.
p.s.-- Being projected as a 3rd round pick and selected in the 6th round doesn't make you a steal. Being taken in the 6th round and becoming a plus player for the team that selected you is what makes you a steal.

fit on this list? I f the GIANTS only dress two tight ends in a game, he might be the third emergency tight end. Who knows, but it may become interesting and allow the Giants to keep only 3 tight ends on the roster and keep a true full back.

Who is the official 'starter' will depend on:
1. Health
2. How quickly Engram can learn the playbook
3. Packages - I think we'll see a lot more 2 TE sets this year

As for the rest, I'd flip LaCosse and Tye in Milton's list:
3. Tye
4. Adams
5. LaCosse
6. who cares

Tye was still the starter down the stretch last year and here are his snap counts vs Adams over the last 5 games that Adams played in (excludes GB/WAS):

Tye | Adams
CLE: 49 vs 11
PIT: 47 vs 18
DAL: 51 vs 21
DET: 42 vs 27
PHI: 60 vs 40

Adams earned more playing time as the year progressed, but I don't see anything to suggest he passed Tye on the depth chart. And while LaCosse has reportedly been impressive in OTAs, they're still just OTAs.

If they elect to go without a FB again, then I can see 2 of Tye/Adams/LaCosse making the team. I'd say LaCosse has a big hill to climb though since they liked Adams enough last year to increase his PT as the season progressed.

In comment 13491602 Milton said:

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In comment 13491503 Moose and Fury said: Quote: Adams isn't a LOCK, but he'd really have to screw up to not be in the top 3. Yes, he was a 6th round pick, but he was a steal as a 6th rounder and was projected to go in the 3rd or the 4th. Geremy Davis was a 6th round pick who was projected as a 7th rounder or UDFA. Huge talent/potential gap there. A 6th round pick is a 6th round pick. It doesn't matter where the draftniks with their limited information projected him to go, when the professionals with their jobs on the line had their say, Davis was taken with the 186th pick and Adams was taken with the 184th pick. p.s.-- Being projected as a 3rd round pick and selected in the 6th round doesn't make you a steal. Being taken in the 6th round and becoming a plus player for the team that selected you is what makes you a steal.

Well, Adams has already contributed to the Giants more than Davis did, so these draftniks with limited info were correct on this one. In every draft guys are taken lower or higher than other scouts/front offices expect them to go; it's just the way things shake out. It's ok to evaluate the worth of a draft pick before the guy's career ends.

is thought of as a TE, god help us....

indicates to me that the Giants may be planning to use a lot more multiple TE formations. Three TEs, including Engram, who can move to the slot, brings a lot of variables for the opposing defense to deal with.

In comment 13491650 Doomster said:

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is thought of as a TE, god help us....

This

can lead block from the FB position.