Did the Giants Help Themselves With Their Off Season Moves?

'It's not an A+ off-season' vs. saying 'they didn't help themselves'.

And that seems to be what fans - rightfully - take umbrage with.

this season was and is the O line -- and that not signing Whitworth or one of the other expensive O lineman vets was not only a mistake - but failed to improve the Oline - or the converse that there was very little of value there and that the Giants got the best value in replacements by adding Fluker and the Bisman and had addition by subtraction with Newhouse who had problems staying on the field last year

You can't argue that the Giants didn't improve the TE and WR corps Engram and Marshall are clear upgrades for those two groups Ellison may be an upgrade too if he can get back on the field - or he was a waste of a signing if he can't

You could argue that signing JPP was not an improvement -- but I don't see improvement by subtraction in his case - you could argue that Owa is going to be a liability and that replacing him with a 4th rounder was not an improvement.

You could argue that losing Hankins was a loss and that you can't replace his kind of player with a rookie and that there wasn't an equal replacement for him on the team.

You could argue that the LB corps was not improved and was a weak area on the team and that losing Sheppard hurt the LBs

You could argue that the Giants did very little, to nothing, to improve backfield depth.

Those are all the corps arguments in my mind.

And maybe Asiata over Webb in RD 3.

Thats my bias as I think that their OL is still very thin In depth. I also think Pugh won't be here next year due to some team over paying him.

That being said Engram is going to be a stud and a great pick up for he O. Webb looks good early. Let's pray he's the heir apparent. Marshall is a huge upgrade IMO as a third WR. Ellison gives them a guy who can actually block at TE. Tomlinson should easily be able replace Hankins as a Snacks Vernon and JPP. And at a huge savings.

They helped themselves. Saying Otherwise is a bit silly.

Might as well just call it what it is-- made up horse shit.

This is not a team that needed to improve THAT much in order to be a SB contender. This is a relatively young roster that is coming off an 11 win season.

They improved 2 out of the 4 positions of need (WR and TE). They are counting on young players step up at the other 2 positons (LB and OL with Goodson, Flowers, Hart, Fluker, Bisno). I am fairly certain all of the other contenders have at least 2-3 positions that need young players to perform at as well.

Marshall and Ellison alone were a significant upgrade to the receiving/TE corps. And we retained JPP. That didn't help? Unbelievable BS.

In comment 13491814 BillT said:

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Marshall and Ellison alone were a significant upgrade to the receiving/TE corps. And we retained JPP. That didn't help? Unbelievable BS.

Right? It's like whoever wrote that totally ignored everything including the draft

is the OL and I dont understqnd how 100% of the people here dont agree with that. The Giants had 2 approaches and if one of them works, it'll be a much better team. Their OL last year was one of the worst in the league and I don't care if any statistic says otherwise. They could not run the ball even in routine situations with any kind of consistency much less in the 4 minute offense. Their pass blocking on the outside was weak. You can game plan around 1 weak tackle; very hard when both your tackles are bad and they were both bad. The Giants undoubtedly believe that playing together as a group will make a difference assuming few injuries and that both tackles (at a minimum one tackle) can get much better with coaching, hard work and experience.

The second approach is better blocking from the TE and WRs. I think that can help but not make a crappy OL become a good OL, just a better OL.

The upgrades with the skill position players will make a difference but not if the running game is weak and/or Eli has to throw the ball way earlier than he wants to.

So, I think the Giants made some assumptions regarding the team re the biggest hole, the OL. If they are right and the injury bug doesn't bite the way it did for years before last, tougher schedule notwithstanding, this team can go deep into the playoffs which is all you can ask. But, if the OL tanks, or injuries reveal a real lack of depth on the OL, and game planning around weak tackles doesn't do the trick, we could have a bad year. I'm hopeful that Perkins will do alot more with this OL than Jennings did last year because I do think there were yards left on the field last year when Jennings was playing. But, to my point, the OL will dictate how far this team goes and it remains to be seen how much the off season moves, or lack of, helped.

In comment 13491734 chuckydee9 said:

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he is a blocker/FB.. NYG didn't sign Ellison because of his receiving stats. Well they paid him like he had some.. he is a fullback/blocker.. you should be able to get one of those in the later rounds of your draft rather than pay one $18M..

Have you seen what TEs are making these days? $18 million over four years is peanuts (and only $8 million of that is guaranteed). And just wait until next year's crop of UFA TEs is ready to get paid. For what he brings to the table, Ellison is a real bargain.

In comment 13491574 Eric from BBI said:

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The Giants basically said their starting TEs (Donnell and Tye), starting RB (Jennings), and starting WR (Cruz) sucked as they readily discarded all of them but Tye (who is now more than on the bubble). How is that not dramatic change. Those are three high-profile positions. The OL debate is fair game, but to say the Giants didn't do anything to address their anemic offense is absurd beyond description.

Eric, It's just the typical Giant's haters. Whatever they do or not do they are wrong. Last year they were blasting the Giants for spending all that money for free agents that really doesn't work. How did that turn out? Haters will hate.

And that's assuming the production drop last year was an aberration.

You really can't expect the Giants to get an "A" because they added a blocking TE and an OL generally considered a bust in Fluker.


That said, this year was about retaining the guys they needed to retain and they did that.

In comment 13491787 djm said:

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Might as well just call it what it is-- made up horse shit.

If Sando had to name names, he wouldn't have anything to report because the sources he quotes can't be attached publicly to these comments.

Just because you don't like something or even if it's an off base piece of analysis in the end doesn't mean it's made up.

I like all the moves JR & co. made this off season. Anyway, were people expecting the Giants to have some sort of major reorganization? Franchise QB? Check, but let's see what we can get in the draft for the future. Done. Top 3 defense? Check. But let's not over pay Big Hank and instead reload DT in the draft. Check. Need an NFL caliber TE, got a blocking TE in FA and a freakish speedster to exploit the middle of the field and who was the consensus 2 or 3 best TE in the draft. Still got our All Pro game breaking top of the league WR. Shep should build off a solid rookie campaign. Needed an X. Signed the best X UFA receiver who's either going to fall off a cliff a la Randy Moss or he's going to continue to add to his Hall of Fame stats playing with the best QB and WR he's ever suited up with. Drafted a one cut RB who had a whale of a career playing in one of the best college football programs in the county. Took a flyer on Fluker; who knows?

Anyhow... writers gotta write something I guess.

...they significantly helped themselves. And they did much more than just that.

Maybe Solari saw something that made him feel he could improve his play, but until he shows it on the field, I don't see any reason to expect any help from Fluker.

but I think they are better going into camp. The flip at defensive tackle is a net loss, in my opinion. They are weaker at corner. Better at wide receiver and tight end.

The key to their season will be the play of Eli. They are old at quarterback, sometimes skittish at quarterback. Contrary to public belief, the Giants will see more pressures in '17 than they saw in '16. The availability of big plays both for and against.

Tempering expectations should be (but it won't) that the Giants were actually pretty lucky last season. The schedule broke nicely for them. They played three teams with impotent offenses. There was an undeniable element of luck in the two wins over the Cowboys. And I think they will suffer a higher injury rate this year than last, although the change in regarding health history as a metric instead of adhering to Cosmic Pinball Theory is a welcomed development.

You can throw Linus's blanket, talent-wise, over the four teams in the division. I'm cautiously optimistic. Hardly euphoric though. Too many issues for that.

though our record will likely get worse -- 10-6 or 9-7.
And, yes, we will be a better, more dangerous team in the playoffs.

But he comes with the risk that he is indeed well past his prime. 34 is old in football. If he has anything left he will be an upgrade to Cruz, but it is not a given. Players get old quickly.

what the Giants *should* have done instead. Everyone's entitled to an opinion.

But just going 'nah, no good' isn't an opinion, it's just shitting on the floor and walking away.

In comment 13492404 RetroJint said:

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but I think they are better going into camp. The flip at defensive tackle is a net loss, in my opinion. They are weaker at corner. Better at wide receiver and tight end. The key to their season will be the play of Eli. They are old at quarterback, sometimes skittish at quarterback. Contrary to public belief, the Giants will see more pressures in '17 than they saw in '16. The availability of big plays both for and against. Tempering expectations should be (but it won't) that the Giants were actually pretty lucky last season. The schedule broke nicely for them. They played three teams with impotent offenses. There was an undeniable element of luck in the two wins over the Cowboys. And I think they will suffer a higher injury rate this year than last, although the change in regarding health history as a metric instead of adhering to Cosmic Pinball Theory is a welcomed development. You can throw Linus's blanket, talent-wise, over the four teams in the division. I'm cautiously optimistic. Hardly euphoric though. Too many issues for that.

Luck in the two wins over the Cowboys? First game was tight and Cowboys screwed up last drive otherwise they probably win but not sure that is luck. Second game, Giants turned the ball over 3 times, twice in deep scoring areas because edge rushers ran over our Tackles. But where is the luck?

Is it enough to change the way this season ends? It is the question facing every team but one. Giants definitely improved this offseason across the board and the commitment to the offensive line will be picked apart by everyone for good reason, the team is ready to put that same offensive line out there in September. I hope Fluker gets into the mix but even the Giants aren't convinced he can with that one year deal. The offensive line is going to make or break the Giants 2017 season.

In comment 13491962 Klaatu said:

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In comment 13491734 chuckydee9 said: Quote: he is a blocker/FB.. NYG didn't sign Ellison because of his receiving stats. Well they paid him like he had some.. he is a fullback/blocker.. you should be able to get one of those in the later rounds of your draft rather than pay one $18M.. Have you seen what TEs are making these days? $18 million over four years is peanuts (and only $8 million of that is guaranteed). And just wait until next year's crop of UFA TEs is ready to get paid. For what he brings to the table, Ellison is a real bargain.

Wait are you comparing Rhett Ellison to guys like Marty Bennett?

I tried hard but couldn't find any site or anyone that had him rated as a top 100 FA this off season.. Walter football had him rated as 16th best free agent TE this off-season.. and we just paid this dude somewhere between 8 and 18 million.. If I had asked you before we signed him " hey what do you think about Rhett Ellison" you would've said who?.. we can now only hope he performs up to his salary.. but don't tell me this BS about how he is a bargain..

In comment 13493252 chuckydee9 said:

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In comment 13491962 Klaatu said: Quote: In comment 13491734 chuckydee9 said: Quote: he is a blocker/FB.. NYG didn't sign Ellison because of his receiving stats. Well they paid him like he had some.. he is a fullback/blocker.. you should be able to get one of those in the later rounds of your draft rather than pay one $18M.. Have you seen what TEs are making these days? $18 million over four years is peanuts (and only $8 million of that is guaranteed). And just wait until next year's crop of UFA TEs is ready to get paid. For what he brings to the table, Ellison is a real bargain. Wait are you comparing Rhett Ellison to guys like Marty Bennett? I tried hard but couldn't find any site or anyone that had him rated as a top 100 FA this off season.. Walter football had him rated as 16th best free agent TE this off-season.. and we just paid this dude somewhere between 8 and 18 million.. If I had asked you before we signed him " hey what do you think about Rhett Ellison" you would've said who?.. we can now only hope he performs up to his salary.. but don't tell me this BS about how he is a bargain..

Take a look, then tell me Ellison is not a bargain. $18 million over four years with only $8 million guaranteed is nothing.

And, no, if you would have asked me about Rhett Ellison before we signed him I would not have said, "who?" Just because you never heard of him, don't assume that I didn't, either. That reminds me of the guy who didn't believe that I mentioned OV in a post a year before we signed him (as a possible replacement for JPP, when it looked like he might not make it back). I don't need Walter Football to stay up to date.

I checked your link and every single TE who is getting paid more than Ellison is a far superior receiving option..Some are even better blockers than him.. Like I said you can't compare him to guys like Bennett who actually has less guaranteed money than Ellison.. We just paid a FB 18M and while I may not have known Rhett Ellison.. Walter Football, NFL.com, PFF and all other sites did know him and had him rated very low.. I can just agree to disagree as I don't think you can convince me that he is underpaid.. Guys like him should've been picked up in 3rd or later over the past few years.. we have bad low round draft picks and since they can't pick up the slack we have to pay Guys like Ellison so much money..