I also don't think they're all driven by the same things.
As for the Newhouse quote, he was probably sticking up for a teammate after the millionth question about Beckham doing something stupid.
And we agree on one thing: Beckham isn't driven to be a great team guy.
Do you even believe the "fire" that you post? You have to create an imaginary context to explain away a positive quote from a teammate because you refuse to accept an opinion of Beckham that doesn't match yours.
I think if he was actually a bad teammate, we'd have an account from at least one player about it by now. No one is forcing guys like Newhouse to go above and beyond to describe how hard Beckham works or say that he fights for his teammates.
What Reese said has nothing to do with Beckham being a bad teammate. It's about controlling his emotions on the field. Which I've said many times I think he needs to do a better job of.
There's no evidence anywhere that he's a bad teammate. You're telling me I shouldn't believe players saying otherwise, but I'm supposed to think you're right when you have nothing to go by aside from him skipping voluntary OTA's?
Odell came out of the gate with the best or 2nd best rookie WR season in the SB era. Statistically, it was even better than Randy Moss' rookie campaign. But Moss' deep speed definitely had a "beyond the stats" impact that gives his rookie year a good argument in comparison to Odell's.
His rookie year gets an A++ grade any way you look at it. He follows that up by putting up 96/1450/13 in his soph season and 101/1367/10 this past year. Even by today's standards, those are 2 dominant statistical seasons by a WR.
Yet, a big part of me feels like Odell could've done even more these last 2 years. He's a TD machine, but it feels like there were 5 more "easy" TDs that Odell didn't convert due to not being able to make a "catchable" reception. He's had his bigtime 4th quarter moments too like when he roasted Norman/Finnegan in the "Norman game", but he's had a handful of moments where he came up short at at an important time.
His grade in Year 2/3 is still an A/A+ overall, but it feels like just a B by his standards because he was thisclose to doing so much more. But then I look at the numbers again...
Those are Odell's (A) numbers these past 2 years compared with Antonio Brown (B) and Julio Jones' (C) numbers. Odell trails in Yards and Receptions, but his TD and INT rates are crazy impressive. This is why he has roughly the same passer rating as those 2 guys. For all intents and purposes, Odell/Brown/Julio were basically equal in terms of stats these past 2 years.
But that's before you compare the offenses they played with.The Falcons and Steelers both had far better OLines, both had FAR better running options, and both had better secondary receiving options. I think it's fair to say that Odell received more attention from opposing Defenses than Brown or Julio did due to the lack of talent around him. Ryan and Big Ben have also played better than Eli the last 2 years, one area in particular is the deep ball. Whereas Big Ben and Ryan have been great on long bombs, Eli and Odell have not been on the same page with deep connections. Part of that is because our OL doesn't give Eli enough time to set those bombs up.
Do I think Odell has been better than Julio and Antonio the past 2 years? No, I don't. AB and Julio have both shown up huge in the playoffs. Brown won a playoff game with a great catch and effort, and Julio should've iced a Super Bowl Championship with a ridiculously sick and clutch catch. Odell, on the otherhand, came up tiny in Green Bay.
But Brown and Jones are two HOFers in the middle of their primes whereas Odell is just about to enter his prime. Statistically, young Odell has been right there and arguably more impressive than the 2 consensus top WRs in the league. And Visually, Odell's explosiveness stands out as the most jawdropping skill any of these 3 players have.
I have a lot of issues with Odell's personality. Quite frankly, the man has a lot of "bitch tendencies". He's a brat. His hands are also inconsistent. He also seems to lack some physical strength, he has explosive power but his regular strength seems like it could improve based on the way DBs seem to be able to body him on GL fades. For as many highlight catches as he makes, he doesn't make a ton of powerful in-traffic catches like a Brandon Marshall or DeAndre Hopkins.
But for as many faults as he has, this guy was arguably the best player at his position over the NFL during the first 3 years of his career. I hate the diva attitude and the instagram-era BS, but YOU HAVE TO PAY THIS MAN. Giving Odell the same money as Antonio Brown is totally reasonable in a league where "the next QB up" is always getting more money than the previous Franchise QB who got paid. This isn't like giving Flacco the same money as Aaron Rodgers.
Age 22-24 Odell has been a great football player. But most of these athletes peak at roughly age 27, so it's very possible that age 25-27 Odell is going to be even better in the coming years. He's going to be more refined. He's hopefully going to be more consistent and eliminate the drops issue. He's going to hopefully be more mature and know how to handle the spotlight better. I want Odell in blue for his entire career, or atleast the next 5 years.
but if he has another amazing season and stays healthy, abso-freakin-lutely.
I don't even think OBJ is an ahole like everyone seems to think. I think he's an amazing person that has compassion and cares for people. If you watch anything that he does off the field, he's very generous and caring. He's one of those guys that is just a fiery competitor(I don't care if some dummy doesn't like to refer to him as that) that hasn't learned how to control his emotions, but clearly he's aware enough to realize that and will eventually figure it out.
I look forward to the few idiots disappearing as OBJ plays out his HOF career.
This isn't just drinking koolaid, it's straight up injecting it intravenously. If a player on the Eagles made it a routine to show up late for fan events and no show charity events he signed on for the way Zbeckham has the last two offseasons, there's no way in hell you'd be claiming that player an an amazing, compassionate person.
And for the record, I don't care if he's an asshole or not. I don't need nice guys on my team.
I don't know who you are and you sure as hell don't know me. Don't tell me what I would think. Certain people keep using this eagles reference and it's stupid. First off, I'm not you. Just because you would bash another team doesn't mean I can't be fair when I see other players actions. OBJ is absolutely a very good person and a good teammate and nothing I have seen goes against that. He can be a bit aholish when he plays, but he will cool it down a bit as he matures.
Give me a fucking break. The term fire is used so often as a synonym for stupidity it's incredible.
I guess Eli Manning doesn't give a shit because he doesn't act like a moron after every positive play.
Fire is good. Tom Brady is a fiery competitor, as was Eli's brother. They however knew how to chanel that fire. OBJ hasn't learned that yet. It's immaturity, plain and simple.
I'm not really following your Eli point. Did I say that Eli doesn't care because he doesn't have outbursts? I don't think I did.
You keep making things up to try to make a point and when called on it, it's straw man after straw man. You have nothing. You dug this massive hole and you are stuck in it. You have yet to make 1 solid point when discussing OBJ, not one.
If that's how player competes, fine. If that's not who a player is, that's fine. From your couch or seat, you have no idea which one wants it more or is more competitive or whatever.
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I don't know who you are and you sure as hell don't know me. Don't tell me what I would think. Certain people keep using this eagles reference and it's stupid. First off, I'm not you. Just because you would bash another team doesn't mean I can't be fair when I see other players actions. OBJ is absolutely a very good person and a good teammate and nothing I have seen goes against that. He can be a bit aholish when he plays, but he will cool it down a bit as he matures.
I brought up the Eagles because if a player on their team behaved the way OBJ has there's zero chance you or anyone on this board would be on their knees for them for basically being a saint the way you are.
You're the one going on about how he cares for people and is an amazing person based on... I'm not really sure, since there's a pretty decent trail of him being a fuckboy. (Which, again, doesn't matter to me. Most athletes are assholes even if they try to paint a facade otherwise or even succeed in doing so.)
You don't know me. I don't know Odell, but he comes across as a very good person off the field. His only problem is how he handles himself between the lines when things get tough and he will get better in that aspect.
And there we have it. Faced with plenty of good reasons why the Giants should absolutely retain Beckham (notably Osi's stellar post above), you choose to zero in on the issue of his behavior. It's clear, you don't like the guy and that would be fine if you were even remotely close to be unbiased in your assessment of him and his value to the Giants. But you can't.
Because "fire."
RE: I believe he has self awareness and realizes his weaknesses.
I believe he's immature and I believe most people mature as they get older and more experienced. Some mature earlier than others, some are later.
Respectfully disagree here. He's completely consumed by his own fame and doesn't see anything wrong with it. I don't think he has any idea why the perception matters because he and Cris Carter know more than his position coach and they know what's best for Odell. Bullshit, Cris Carter played pre-CBA, he had months of contact with his team, two a days, padded practices and long long hours. He has no idea what it takes in THIS NFL to win because of the CBA limits on player time. Every single second matters and Odell fails to see why, which means he cares about Odell more than anything else. He's shunning his team on purpose and he thinks its making him better? That is completely lacking in self awareness and magnifying his greatest weakness, which is his own ego.
I'm not going to try and psychoanalyze a guy I've never met.
I'm not going to assign motives to him or read anything into a tweet, or give much credence to anything a would-be surrogate says on his behalf.
I expect him to show up to mandatory mini-camp in shape and ready to work. I expect him to show up in training camp in shape and ready to work. I believe that's what his teammates expect of him, too. Ditto for his coaches.
But you won't rule out him becoming a team cancer. You see, that's just it. There is zero, and I mean ZERO evidence other than media created speculation that there is even such a thing as a "team cancer."
But nice of you to refrain from calling the giants best player an actual hinderance to winning. The same player who has lifted the offense when literally no one else on the team was close to capable.
Some of you out think yourself at every turn. Team cancer? What the fuck does that even mean? How on earth does a good to great player cause a team to die? How???? I wanna know!! Please enlighten me because in the 35 years I've been glued to pro sports in the NYC NJ area i have never seen a player matastasize into a tumor that eats the team away. Even Terrell Owens..... nope.... sorry....wrong! Owens helped his team win.
Like I said the one thing we should fear with big long term contracts is health. Team cancer my ass. Made up media driven horse shit.
I did in fact think Owens was an asshole when he was on SF, Dallas and philly. I also couldn't wait to see him get the fuck out of the NFC east.
I don't care if Beckham is an asshole or is immature or acts like an idiot when he scores a TD. This isn't my high school class. This is my favorite football team. I want wins. I want to beat Dallas in December. Beckham helps the cause. Of course I want Beckham to maximize his potential and longevity. I'd love to see the carry himself like Eli or Jeter but he is who he is. You want to run the guy out of here simply because you don't like his act. Thank Christ you're not the GM.
Some of the most toxic and chaotic and dysfunctional teams ever
Won world titles. Some of the wackiest players ever lifted their teams to great heights.
You know how long a distraction goes? Right up until game day. The second the lights come on and the fans cheer and the curtain goes up every "distraction" from the past week is forgotten. Distractions are a nuisance to the team and players and coaches. Players will get annoyed. Coaches will get annoyed. And the media is there with pen in hand ready to write the latest narrative. Fans eat it up.
If you were a pro athlete and some teammate was involved in a big story. And the media asked you a bunch of questions throughout the week is that reallly going to impact how you perform on Sunday? This shit is childish to even debate.
I think if the Giants offer him a contract that makes him the highest paid receiver in the league they are making a big mistake that will come back to bite them.
RE: The debate isn't about whether he's an asshole
I think if the Giants offer him a contract that makes him the highest paid receiver in the league they are making a big mistake that will come back to bite them.
The last part of that sentence is your bias against Beckham as a person speaking loud and clear. If you simply say "no WR is worth that much money" and leave it as that I'd atleast respect the opinion. But that last part of statement makes it very hard to take it seriously or have a good debate with.
I've said that paying any receiver that much money is absurd. I've also said there are only two or three players in the league I'd pay that much money. I've said that more than once.
I make no secret that I'd be happy not to have to root for Beckham anymore, but even if I liked him I wouldn't pay that much. It's nuts.
RE: Some of the most toxic and chaotic and dysfunctional teams ever
Won world titles. Some of the wackiest players ever lifted their teams to great heights.
You know how long a distraction goes? Right up until game day. The second the lights come on and the fans cheer and the curtain goes up every "distraction" from the past week is forgotten. Distractions are a nuisance to the team and players and coaches. Players will get annoyed. Coaches will get annoyed. And the media is there with pen in hand ready to write the latest narrative. Fans eat it up.
If you were a pro athlete and some teammate was involved in a big story. And the media asked you a bunch of questions throughout the week is that reallly going to impact how you perform on Sunday? This shit is childish to even debate.
Let me offer a few thoughts here. I'm a firm firm believer in results, very much so and it's the reason I'm in the industry I am in and work for who I work for. I want results, period. I don't care if my best guy (and he is) is a huge asshole, he gets shit done and people rave about his, let's call it, on the field performance. He's a knife, he cuts and when I need something cut I use him. In the clubhouse so to speak, he's a huge pain in the ass, HUGE but he respects me and responds to me and does the work when asked. Odell is NOT doing the work right now, that is troubling to me when you have a 24 year old who has been in as much off the field shit as he has.
Now, as far as distractions go, I offer one thing - access. I'm a nobody, a butthead by all accounts and I know one person "in the know" and I get asked constantly by people who know me what I can find out. If I know, I share it's that simple. Now, put yourself in say...Damon Harrison's shoes. He is an NFL vet, a pro bowler and the face of the defense. DO you think he doesn't field hundreds of texts daily for some scoop on Odell? Do you think every player he's played with and against who he's cool with doesn't just say .hey man, what's up with Odell? Because they do. Now multiply that by everyone on the team because every single solitary one fields the same shit daily, I guarantee it. Every rookie whose ex teammates are in awe of him playing Odell, every FA who came here now has friends who knows that he knows..Odell. Every coach, every trainer, every employee will get the same fucking bullshit daily about it. That's not impactful? That's not draining, not annoying, not a distraction? Think about this in day to day real life terms and really THINK...do you think this is a pain in the ass to them? If you don't, you're lying or defending someone aimlessly. Will it matter in the long run? Don't know, I don't, you don't and neither does anyone else. Does it have the potential for risk? Yes, yes it does and that is not a good thing for a team, not a good thing for a team with Super Bowl aspirations not in this day and age of unlimited access and non stop interruptions. He's a problem right now, that may stop but right now to say it's not a big deal is being obtuse and quite frankly not using your god given brain to think critically about an issue. This is not 1986, it's not a few reporters in a paper, it's non stop, all live, all the time, 100% access to everyone all the time and it will take a toll on these players and coaches and organization. Saying otherwise is just apologizing for poor behavior. He's being an ass, you know and I know it and we all wish he wasn't. It's that simple for me. Do you prefer he be here working or be away making a dick of himself at every turn? Answer that honestly and you'll see why people care about this. He should be here, he should be a part of something special and he's not and it sucks, period.
I want him to be here too but let's not act like dozens of other great players have missed OTAs. Players used to miss training camps over money. Money! They all did it. Now Beckham may or may not be missing shit they didn't even report on in the 80s and 90s and you're using that as some sort of reason to indict the guy. I'm sorry I just don't agree all the way like some of you do. Is it a nuisance yes is it something I'd prefer not to see? Yes. But a condemnable offense or something that worries me? No. And why? Because I've seen this shit before. So have you. There is very little or no correlation at all of this to some bad end game.
I just don't care about the drama side of things. This isn't football related.
Funny how no one is talking about the best defensive players on the chiefs missing OTAs.
Whatever I said my piece. OBJ will be fine. If he isn't he isn't. Missing OTAs as possibly part of some contract ploy has been done 1000s of times before. Nyg legends, all of them, held out and at times went scorched earth in hopes of getting paid. Some of these camp holdouts subsequently led to bad seasons. Carl banks held out for money and had a bad year for his standards. Marshall did. Simms held out in 89 and had his worst year.
Short memories, Joey and others. You're my age, you remember these examples I just posted. Obj isn't even holding and you're reading the riot act on here like the guy is torpedoing the season. Cmon already.
Whatever I said my piece. OBJ will be fine. If he isn't he isn't. Missing OTAs as possibly part of some contract ploy has been done 1000s of times before. Nyg legends, all of them, held out and at times went scorched earth in hopes of getting paid. Some of these camp holdouts subsequently led to bad seasons. Carl banks held out for money and had a bad year for his standards. Marshall did. Simms held out in 89 and had his worst year.
Short memories, Joey and others. You're my age, you remember these examples I just posted. Obj isn't even holding and you're reading the riot act on here like the guy is torpedoing the season. Cmon already.
Fair enough, my hope is that it amounts to fuck all and we win a Super Bowl and I look like a schlub (which I usually do), but something about this just rubs me the wrong way and I'm not sure what it is. It's more gut feel than anything tangible, but as you said we've seen it before, we'll see how it goes and root for the best outcome. Peace.
These are voluntary. They didn't even report on this shit back in the 80s and 90s. Now a guy farts in the wrong direction during the month of June and this place goes nuts.
We know way too much. I hate the salary talk and shit like this. The non stop 24 hour media driven scrutiny is tiresome and harmful to actual analysis. And the mere fact that we are talking about obj's cap hit on a contract that is likely to be years away is just sad. Enjoy the guy on the field.
Whatever I said my piece. OBJ will be fine. If he isn't he isn't. Missing OTAs as possibly part of some contract ploy has been done 1000s of times before. Nyg legends, all of them, held out and at times went scorched earth in hopes of getting paid. Some of these camp holdouts subsequently led to bad seasons. Carl banks held out for money and had a bad year for his standards. Marshall did. Simms held out in 89 and had his worst year.
Short memories, Joey and others. You're my age, you remember these examples I just posted. Obj isn't even holding and you're reading the riot act on here like the guy is torpedoing the season. Cmon already.
Fair enough, my hope is that it amounts to fuck all and we win a Super Bowl and I look like a schlub (which I usually do), but something about this just rubs me the wrong way and I'm not sure what it is. It's more gut feel than anything tangible, but as you said we've seen it before, we'll see how it goes and root for the best outcome. Peace.
Dude you're not alone believe me. And like I said of course I want obj to be as perfect as humanly possible. I'd be a lying fool to say otherwise. But I just don't see the point in worrying right now about the OTAs and looming contract. You have to pay him. If he blows up and we eat shit for 2-3 years so be it. You draft guys and pray they turn into obj wack job or not.
My father in law called me yesterday and completely blasted obj saying to dump him lol. And he's more tolerant with players than I am. Obj is a lightning rod. I get it.
Joey, good stuff, there is a lot of shit these players
deal with that we don't see, but that's not OBJ's fault. He can't worry about that shit and that stuff will happen regardless. He is a polarizing figure and everything he does will create a circus. He will do what he has to do to be prepared to dominate and he clearly care about his team and his teammates and winning. That's all I can ask.
You think every player isn't inundated with texts about Eli and the memorabilia thing? There are tons of distractions and a professional won't let it effect their job. Plain and simple.
I am also of the belief that there are cancers in sports. TO was a cancer, he divided locker rooms. OBJ is NOT that guy.
I think if the Giants offer him a contract that makes him the highest paid receiver in the league they are making a big mistake that will come back to bite them.
The Giants have him this year at 1.8 mil. They have him next year for the 5th year option, and then they can franchise him the year after. Barring injury, the Giants will make out like bandits in terms of ROI over the life of his first 6 years in the league.
If the Giants pay him early, it will be at a discount. Otherwise there's no incentive to do a deal this year or next year. If they don't and he continues to produce then he deserves to be paid accordingly -- by the Giants or someone else.
You say let him walk -- would you be cool with seeing him in Philly and playing him twice a year?
and going to crash in a couple years, why would you pay him now? we've got him locked up. and in a couple years, when we have no QB, and we're ditching all the high priced players around him, the team is likely to be going no where, so why pay him then?
but if you do want to sign him, you don't give crazy dollars to average/slightly better than average players like Pugh. stay the course this year, unless OBJ wants to give a hometown discount (which he won't, because the hd is a myth), then use the savings off ditching Pugh to sign him long term. He's cheap this year and next, and he likely isn't giving you a discount to resign. so it makes no sense. why increase your expenses when you can lock him up for two years and then use the tag?
and going to crash in a couple years, why would you pay him now? we've got him locked up. and in a couple years, when we have no QB, and we're ditching all the high priced players around him, the team is likely to be going no where, so why pay him then?
Good attitude! I'm sure all of the younger players are looking forward to sucking in the not too distant future.
and going to crash in a couple years, why would you pay him now? we've got him locked up. and in a couple years, when we have no QB, and we're ditching all the high priced players around him, the team is likely to be going no where, so why pay him then?
but if you do want to sign him, you don't give crazy dollars to average/slightly better than average players like Pugh. stay the course this year, unless OBJ wants to give a hometown discount (which he won't, because the hd is a myth), then use the savings off ditching Pugh to sign him long term. He's cheap this year and next, and he likely isn't giving you a discount to resign. so it makes no sense. why increase your expenses when you can lock him up for two years and then use the tag?
I'm not following. The only aging player close to the end is Eli. I guess you can say Marshall, but he's not a huge part of the team. We have a young OL. We have a DL that are all in their primes and will be here for a long time. Our secondary is very young with Jackrabbit, Apple and Collins. We have Engram, Shepard and Odell who are very young. So what exactly are you talking about? This team is built for now and the future, we just need to replace Eli.
I think if the Giants offer him a contract that makes him the highest paid receiver in the league they are making a big mistake that will come back to bite them.
The Giants have him this year at 1.8 mil. They have him next year for the 5th year option, and then they can franchise him the year after. Barring injury, the Giants will make out like bandits in terms of ROI over the life of his first 6 years in the league.
If the Giants pay him early, it will be at a discount. Otherwise there's no incentive to do a deal this year or next year. If they don't and he continues to produce then he deserves to be paid accordingly -- by the Giants or someone else.
You say let him walk -- would you be cool with seeing him in Philly and playing him twice a year?
Completely. If they want to throw that much money at one player, great.
and going to crash in a couple years, why would you pay him now? we've got him locked up. and in a couple years, when we have no QB, and we're ditching all the high priced players around him, the team is likely to be going no where, so why pay him then?
but if you do want to sign him, you don't give crazy dollars to average/slightly better than average players like Pugh. stay the course this year, unless OBJ wants to give a hometown discount (which he won't, because the hd is a myth), then use the savings off ditching Pugh to sign him long term. He's cheap this year and next, and he likely isn't giving you a discount to resign. so it makes no sense. why increase your expenses when you can lock him up for two years and then use the tag?
I'm so sick of this "win now" BS. Take a look at this roster, outside of Marshall/Eli/DRC.
Jenkins, Apple, Collins, JPP, Snacks, OV, Beckham, Perkins, Shepard, Engram, Pugh, Richburg, etc. ... this team can win a SB and still remain competitive for a very long time.
Dude posts probably the most insightful, well thought-out post on this entire thread, and then follows up hours later with two that are almost completely unintelligible.
Then I would conclude that you won't want to pay anyone big bucks that doesn't play like LT and act like Richie Cunningham off the field. And he has to play a unique position that suits your team building philosophy and even then you'd probably change your option as the wind blows.
If you aren't in the mood to pay a guy like Beckham then you subscribe to some weird team building philosophy or ideology that is all but impossible to sustain or win with. Every single gm alive pays Beckham. Every. Single. One. The guy is a human cheat code. Let him walk only if you're absolutely certain he's damaged goods. Until then, sign him.
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Give me a fucking break. The term fire is used so often as a synonym for stupidity it's incredible.
I guess Eli Manning doesn't give a shit because he doesn't act like a moron after every positive play.
Your posts contain a lot of fire.
Fire is good.
As for the Newhouse quote, he was probably sticking up for a teammate after the millionth question about Beckham doing something stupid.
And we agree on one thing: Beckham isn't driven to be a great team guy.
Do you even believe the "fire" that you post? You have to create an imaginary context to explain away a positive quote from a teammate because you refuse to accept an opinion of Beckham that doesn't match yours.
What Reese said has nothing to do with Beckham being a bad teammate. It's about controlling his emotions on the field. Which I've said many times I think he needs to do a better job of.
There's no evidence anywhere that he's a bad teammate. You're telling me I shouldn't believe players saying otherwise, but I'm supposed to think you're right when you have nothing to go by aside from him skipping voluntary OTA's?
To use your own words...
Give me a fucking break.
His rookie year gets an A++ grade any way you look at it. He follows that up by putting up 96/1450/13 in his soph season and 101/1367/10 this past year. Even by today's standards, those are 2 dominant statistical seasons by a WR.
Yet, a big part of me feels like Odell could've done even more these last 2 years. He's a TD machine, but it feels like there were 5 more "easy" TDs that Odell didn't convert due to not being able to make a "catchable" reception. He's had his bigtime 4th quarter moments too like when he roasted Norman/Finnegan in the "Norman game", but he's had a handful of moments where he came up short at at an important time.
His grade in Year 2/3 is still an A/A+ overall, but it feels like just a B by his standards because he was thisclose to doing so much more. But then I look at the numbers again...
A: 327 Targets -- 197 Rec -- 2817 Yds -- 23 TD -- 5 INT* --- 105.3 Passer Rating
B: 347 Targets -- 242 Rec -- 3118 Yds -- 22 TD -- 11 INT* -- 105.6 Passer Rating
C: 332 Targets -- 219 Rec -- 3280 Yds -- 14 TD -- 6 INT* --- 104.7 Passer Rating
*INTs where player was the target
Those are Odell's (A) numbers these past 2 years compared with Antonio Brown (B) and Julio Jones' (C) numbers. Odell trails in Yards and Receptions, but his TD and INT rates are crazy impressive. This is why he has roughly the same passer rating as those 2 guys. For all intents and purposes, Odell/Brown/Julio were basically equal in terms of stats these past 2 years.
But that's before you compare the offenses they played with.The Falcons and Steelers both had far better OLines, both had FAR better running options, and both had better secondary receiving options. I think it's fair to say that Odell received more attention from opposing Defenses than Brown or Julio did due to the lack of talent around him. Ryan and Big Ben have also played better than Eli the last 2 years, one area in particular is the deep ball. Whereas Big Ben and Ryan have been great on long bombs, Eli and Odell have not been on the same page with deep connections. Part of that is because our OL doesn't give Eli enough time to set those bombs up.
Do I think Odell has been better than Julio and Antonio the past 2 years? No, I don't. AB and Julio have both shown up huge in the playoffs. Brown won a playoff game with a great catch and effort, and Julio should've iced a Super Bowl Championship with a ridiculously sick and clutch catch. Odell, on the otherhand, came up tiny in Green Bay.
But Brown and Jones are two HOFers in the middle of their primes whereas Odell is just about to enter his prime. Statistically, young Odell has been right there and arguably more impressive than the 2 consensus top WRs in the league. And Visually, Odell's explosiveness stands out as the most jawdropping skill any of these 3 players have.
I have a lot of issues with Odell's personality. Quite frankly, the man has a lot of "bitch tendencies". He's a brat. His hands are also inconsistent. He also seems to lack some physical strength, he has explosive power but his regular strength seems like it could improve based on the way DBs seem to be able to body him on GL fades. For as many highlight catches as he makes, he doesn't make a ton of powerful in-traffic catches like a Brandon Marshall or DeAndre Hopkins.
But for as many faults as he has, this guy was arguably the best player at his position over the NFL during the first 3 years of his career. I hate the diva attitude and the instagram-era BS, but YOU HAVE TO PAY THIS MAN. Giving Odell the same money as Antonio Brown is totally reasonable in a league where "the next QB up" is always getting more money than the previous Franchise QB who got paid. This isn't like giving Flacco the same money as Aaron Rodgers.
Age 22-24 Odell has been a great football player. But most of these athletes peak at roughly age 27, so it's very possible that age 25-27 Odell is going to be even better in the coming years. He's going to be more refined. He's hopefully going to be more consistent and eliminate the drops issue. He's going to hopefully be more mature and know how to handle the spotlight better. I want Odell in blue for his entire career, or atleast the next 5 years.
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but if he has another amazing season and stays healthy, abso-freakin-lutely.
I don't even think OBJ is an ahole like everyone seems to think. I think he's an amazing person that has compassion and cares for people. If you watch anything that he does off the field, he's very generous and caring. He's one of those guys that is just a fiery competitor(I don't care if some dummy doesn't like to refer to him as that) that hasn't learned how to control his emotions, but clearly he's aware enough to realize that and will eventually figure it out.
I look forward to the few idiots disappearing as OBJ plays out his HOF career.
This isn't just drinking koolaid, it's straight up injecting it intravenously. If a player on the Eagles made it a routine to show up late for fan events and no show charity events he signed on for the way Zbeckham has the last two offseasons, there's no way in hell you'd be claiming that player an an amazing, compassionate person.
And for the record, I don't care if he's an asshole or not. I don't need nice guys on my team.
I don't know who you are and you sure as hell don't know me. Don't tell me what I would think. Certain people keep using this eagles reference and it's stupid. First off, I'm not you. Just because you would bash another team doesn't mean I can't be fair when I see other players actions. OBJ is absolutely a very good person and a good teammate and nothing I have seen goes against that. He can be a bit aholish when he plays, but he will cool it down a bit as he matures.
I guess Eli Manning doesn't give a shit because he doesn't act like a moron after every positive play.
Fire is good. Tom Brady is a fiery competitor, as was Eli's brother. They however knew how to chanel that fire. OBJ hasn't learned that yet. It's immaturity, plain and simple.
I'm not really following your Eli point. Did I say that Eli doesn't care because he doesn't have outbursts? I don't think I did.
You keep making things up to try to make a point and when called on it, it's straw man after straw man. You have nothing. You dug this massive hole and you are stuck in it. You have yet to make 1 solid point when discussing OBJ, not one.
If that's how player competes, fine. If that's not who a player is, that's fine. From your couch or seat, you have no idea which one wants it more or is more competitive or whatever.
I brought up the Eagles because if a player on their team behaved the way OBJ has there's zero chance you or anyone on this board would be on their knees for them for basically being a saint the way you are.
You're the one going on about how he cares for people and is an amazing person based on... I'm not really sure, since there's a pretty decent trail of him being a fuckboy. (Which, again, doesn't matter to me. Most athletes are assholes even if they try to paint a facade otherwise or even succeed in doing so.)
Why?
Why?
And there we have it. Faced with plenty of good reasons why the Giants should absolutely retain Beckham (notably Osi's stellar post above), you choose to zero in on the issue of his behavior. It's clear, you don't like the guy and that would be fine if you were even remotely close to be unbiased in your assessment of him and his value to the Giants. But you can't.
Because "fire."
I expect him to show up to mandatory mini-camp in shape and ready to work. I expect him to show up in training camp in shape and ready to work. I believe that's what his teammates expect of him, too. Ditto for his coaches.
He's playing in NY. Tie goes to us
But nice of you to refrain from calling the giants best player an actual hinderance to winning. The same player who has lifted the offense when literally no one else on the team was close to capable.
Some of you out think yourself at every turn. Team cancer? What the fuck does that even mean? How on earth does a good to great player cause a team to die? How???? I wanna know!! Please enlighten me because in the 35 years I've been glued to pro sports in the NYC NJ area i have never seen a player matastasize into a tumor that eats the team away. Even Terrell Owens..... nope.... sorry....wrong! Owens helped his team win.
Like I said the one thing we should fear with big long term contracts is health. Team cancer my ass. Made up media driven horse shit.
I don't care if Beckham is an asshole or is immature or acts like an idiot when he scores a TD. This isn't my high school class. This is my favorite football team. I want wins. I want to beat Dallas in December. Beckham helps the cause. Of course I want Beckham to maximize his potential and longevity. I'd love to see the carry himself like Eli or Jeter but he is who he is. You want to run the guy out of here simply because you don't like his act. Thank Christ you're not the GM.
You know how long a distraction goes? Right up until game day. The second the lights come on and the fans cheer and the curtain goes up every "distraction" from the past week is forgotten. Distractions are a nuisance to the team and players and coaches. Players will get annoyed. Coaches will get annoyed. And the media is there with pen in hand ready to write the latest narrative. Fans eat it up.
If you were a pro athlete and some teammate was involved in a big story. And the media asked you a bunch of questions throughout the week is that reallly going to impact how you perform on Sunday? This shit is childish to even debate.
I think if the Giants offer him a contract that makes him the highest paid receiver in the league they are making a big mistake that will come back to bite them.
I think if the Giants offer him a contract that makes him the highest paid receiver in the league they are making a big mistake that will come back to bite them.
The last part of that sentence is your bias against Beckham as a person speaking loud and clear. If you simply say "no WR is worth that much money" and leave it as that I'd atleast respect the opinion. But that last part of statement makes it very hard to take it seriously or have a good debate with.
I make no secret that I'd be happy not to have to root for Beckham anymore, but even if I liked him I wouldn't pay that much. It's nuts.
You know how long a distraction goes? Right up until game day. The second the lights come on and the fans cheer and the curtain goes up every "distraction" from the past week is forgotten. Distractions are a nuisance to the team and players and coaches. Players will get annoyed. Coaches will get annoyed. And the media is there with pen in hand ready to write the latest narrative. Fans eat it up.
If you were a pro athlete and some teammate was involved in a big story. And the media asked you a bunch of questions throughout the week is that reallly going to impact how you perform on Sunday? This shit is childish to even debate.
Now, as far as distractions go, I offer one thing - access. I'm a nobody, a butthead by all accounts and I know one person "in the know" and I get asked constantly by people who know me what I can find out. If I know, I share it's that simple. Now, put yourself in say...Damon Harrison's shoes. He is an NFL vet, a pro bowler and the face of the defense. DO you think he doesn't field hundreds of texts daily for some scoop on Odell? Do you think every player he's played with and against who he's cool with doesn't just say .hey man, what's up with Odell? Because they do. Now multiply that by everyone on the team because every single solitary one fields the same shit daily, I guarantee it. Every rookie whose ex teammates are in awe of him playing Odell, every FA who came here now has friends who knows that he knows..Odell. Every coach, every trainer, every employee will get the same fucking bullshit daily about it. That's not impactful? That's not draining, not annoying, not a distraction? Think about this in day to day real life terms and really THINK...do you think this is a pain in the ass to them? If you don't, you're lying or defending someone aimlessly. Will it matter in the long run? Don't know, I don't, you don't and neither does anyone else. Does it have the potential for risk? Yes, yes it does and that is not a good thing for a team, not a good thing for a team with Super Bowl aspirations not in this day and age of unlimited access and non stop interruptions. He's a problem right now, that may stop but right now to say it's not a big deal is being obtuse and quite frankly not using your god given brain to think critically about an issue. This is not 1986, it's not a few reporters in a paper, it's non stop, all live, all the time, 100% access to everyone all the time and it will take a toll on these players and coaches and organization. Saying otherwise is just apologizing for poor behavior. He's being an ass, you know and I know it and we all wish he wasn't. It's that simple for me. Do you prefer he be here working or be away making a dick of himself at every turn? Answer that honestly and you'll see why people care about this. He should be here, he should be a part of something special and he's not and it sucks, period.
I just don't care about the drama side of things. This isn't football related.
Funny how no one is talking about the best defensive players on the chiefs missing OTAs.
Short memories, Joey and others. You're my age, you remember these examples I just posted. Obj isn't even holding and you're reading the riot act on here like the guy is torpedoing the season. Cmon already.
Short memories, Joey and others. You're my age, you remember these examples I just posted. Obj isn't even holding and you're reading the riot act on here like the guy is torpedoing the season. Cmon already.
We know way too much. I hate the salary talk and shit like this. The non stop 24 hour media driven scrutiny is tiresome and harmful to actual analysis. And the mere fact that we are talking about obj's cap hit on a contract that is likely to be years away is just sad. Enjoy the guy on the field.
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Whatever I said my piece. OBJ will be fine. If he isn't he isn't. Missing OTAs as possibly part of some contract ploy has been done 1000s of times before. Nyg legends, all of them, held out and at times went scorched earth in hopes of getting paid. Some of these camp holdouts subsequently led to bad seasons. Carl banks held out for money and had a bad year for his standards. Marshall did. Simms held out in 89 and had his worst year.
Short memories, Joey and others. You're my age, you remember these examples I just posted. Obj isn't even holding and you're reading the riot act on here like the guy is torpedoing the season. Cmon already.
Fair enough, my hope is that it amounts to fuck all and we win a Super Bowl and I look like a schlub (which I usually do), but something about this just rubs me the wrong way and I'm not sure what it is. It's more gut feel than anything tangible, but as you said we've seen it before, we'll see how it goes and root for the best outcome. Peace.
Dude you're not alone believe me. And like I said of course I want obj to be as perfect as humanly possible. I'd be a lying fool to say otherwise. But I just don't see the point in worrying right now about the OTAs and looming contract. You have to pay him. If he blows up and we eat shit for 2-3 years so be it. You draft guys and pray they turn into obj wack job or not.
My father in law called me yesterday and completely blasted obj saying to dump him lol. And he's more tolerant with players than I am. Obj is a lightning rod. I get it.
You think every player isn't inundated with texts about Eli and the memorabilia thing? There are tons of distractions and a professional won't let it effect their job. Plain and simple.
I am also of the belief that there are cancers in sports. TO was a cancer, he divided locker rooms. OBJ is NOT that guy.
If U want Ocelll out, you dumb as fuck. Go fuck your idiotic self.
If U want Ocelll out, you dumb as fuck. Go fuck your idiotic self.
hmmm...
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Since LT. But because your a crybaby butch we should say something to shut your dumbass up.
If U want Ocelll out, you dumb as fuck. Go fuck your idiotic self.
hmmm...
Haha, now that's some funny shit.
I think if the Giants offer him a contract that makes him the highest paid receiver in the league they are making a big mistake that will come back to bite them.
The Giants have him this year at 1.8 mil. They have him next year for the 5th year option, and then they can franchise him the year after. Barring injury, the Giants will make out like bandits in terms of ROI over the life of his first 6 years in the league.
If the Giants pay him early, it will be at a discount. Otherwise there's no incentive to do a deal this year or next year. If they don't and he continues to produce then he deserves to be paid accordingly -- by the Giants or someone else.
You say let him walk -- would you be cool with seeing him in Philly and playing him twice a year?
but if you do want to sign him, you don't give crazy dollars to average/slightly better than average players like Pugh. stay the course this year, unless OBJ wants to give a hometown discount (which he won't, because the hd is a myth), then use the savings off ditching Pugh to sign him long term. He's cheap this year and next, and he likely isn't giving you a discount to resign. so it makes no sense. why increase your expenses when you can lock him up for two years and then use the tag?
Good attitude! I'm sure all of the younger players are looking forward to sucking in the not too distant future.
but if you do want to sign him, you don't give crazy dollars to average/slightly better than average players like Pugh. stay the course this year, unless OBJ wants to give a hometown discount (which he won't, because the hd is a myth), then use the savings off ditching Pugh to sign him long term. He's cheap this year and next, and he likely isn't giving you a discount to resign. so it makes no sense. why increase your expenses when you can lock him up for two years and then use the tag?
I'm not following. The only aging player close to the end is Eli. I guess you can say Marshall, but he's not a huge part of the team. We have a young OL. We have a DL that are all in their primes and will be here for a long time. Our secondary is very young with Jackrabbit, Apple and Collins. We have Engram, Shepard and Odell who are very young. So what exactly are you talking about? This team is built for now and the future, we just need to replace Eli.
Love the late night drunk Osi posts. You were so blasted that I couldn't even follow what you were saying. Who exactly were you referring to? lol
Lol Osi, been there!
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The debate is about whether or not to pay him.
I think if the Giants offer him a contract that makes him the highest paid receiver in the league they are making a big mistake that will come back to bite them.
The Giants have him this year at 1.8 mil. They have him next year for the 5th year option, and then they can franchise him the year after. Barring injury, the Giants will make out like bandits in terms of ROI over the life of his first 6 years in the league.
If the Giants pay him early, it will be at a discount. Otherwise there's no incentive to do a deal this year or next year. If they don't and he continues to produce then he deserves to be paid accordingly -- by the Giants or someone else.
You say let him walk -- would you be cool with seeing him in Philly and playing him twice a year?
Completely. If they want to throw that much money at one player, great.
Lolol
but if you do want to sign him, you don't give crazy dollars to average/slightly better than average players like Pugh. stay the course this year, unless OBJ wants to give a hometown discount (which he won't, because the hd is a myth), then use the savings off ditching Pugh to sign him long term. He's cheap this year and next, and he likely isn't giving you a discount to resign. so it makes no sense. why increase your expenses when you can lock him up for two years and then use the tag?
I'm so sick of this "win now" BS. Take a look at this roster, outside of Marshall/Eli/DRC.
Jenkins, Apple, Collins, JPP, Snacks, OV, Beckham, Perkins, Shepard, Engram, Pugh, Richburg, etc. ... this team can win a SB and still remain competitive for a very long time.
Dude posts probably the most insightful, well thought-out post on this entire thread, and then follows up hours later with two that are almost completely unintelligible.
Well done, my friend.
would've been quite a few "holier than thou" trolls calling for his release/trade. ya know, because he was kind of a POS.
Some that killed nyg and strahan in 07 are on this very thread. That doesn't mean they are wrong now but, well... yeah.
If you aren't in the mood to pay a guy like Beckham then you subscribe to some weird team building philosophy or ideology that is all but impossible to sustain or win with. Every single gm alive pays Beckham. Every. Single. One. The guy is a human cheat code. Let him walk only if you're absolutely certain he's damaged goods. Until then, sign him.
At least you were drunk; we still haven't figured out Terps' excuse.