You pay OBJ what he is worth (AB/Julio money). And hope for the best. He is a once in 20/30 years talent. Best Giant since LT. He is also a very good person it seems. And a hard worker. It has been said a million times here but imagine OBJ before the internet - he would be almost perfect (except for the Norman stuff)... and then imagine LT WITH the internet ;-)
Pay the young man... might as well do it now to keep him in blue. I would even sign Landry and Jeremy Hill when they become fa's just to keep him happy.
You pay OBJ what he is worth (AB/Julio money). And hope for the best. He is a once in 20/30 years talent. Best Giant since LT. He is also a very good person it seems. And a hard worker. It has been said a million times here but imagine OBJ before the internet - he would be almost perfect (except for the Norman stuff)... and then imagine LT WITH the internet ;-)
Pay the young man... might as well do it now to keep him in blue. I would even sign Landry and Jeremy Hill when they become fa's just to keep him happy.
even if he doesn't improve on the ridiculously amazing start to his career (i.e. "best ever").
and if he does, we're talking about 1 of the most lethal offensive players in the history of the sport. you don't have to "like" him, but he is an incredible talent and you do what it takes to keep him in a giants uniform.
RE: OBJ likely won't settle for less than being the highest paid WR
but I make it an extension. So, if AB got 5 yrs 72.7 with $19MM in signing bonus, I give OBJ a new contract with 7 yrs 73 MM + 10.5 MM he would have earned over the next two yrs, so total is 7 yrs 83.5 mm with signing bonus of say $20MM. Only guarantees though are the signing bonus and then some incentives that trigger guarantees in the future (like roster bonuses, bonuses for being all-pro or pro-bowl, etc.)
attached is a reminder of the player we're discussing. sometimes even I forget how special he is. it is a privilege to watch him play the sport - even if you don't necessarily "like" him.
he deserves to be the highest paid non-QB in the league, as he is a 1 man wrecking crew capable of scoring as soon as he touches the ball.
You can make arguments for and against. When you pay a guy like JPP, OV, Eli, OBJ...you are making a choice that you are not going to use those $'s someplace else on the roster. Teams that have a good young QB can spend those dollars elsewhere to make the team better.
OBJ has been durable, but if you pay a guy (see Cruz) and he promptly blows out his knee and is done....that hurts your roster. Especially if you paid him before you needed too.
I understand the love for OBJ...he is probably going to have a Hall of Fame career. He make the Giants better right now . . . but maybe paying him 18-20M/year will make the Giants worse in the future?
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I understand the love for OBJ...he is probably going to have a Hall of Fame career. He make the Giants better right now . . . but maybe paying him 18-20M/year will make the Giants worse in the future?
Not paying him will definitely make them worse...or somebody else much better.
attached is a reminder of the player we're discussing. sometimes even I forget how special he is. it is a privilege to watch him play the sport - even if you don't necessarily "like" him.
he deserves to be the highest paid non-QB in the league, as he is a 1 man wrecking crew capable of scoring as soon as he touches the ball. ODB Career Highlights - ( New Window )
How many of those plays happened in games the Giants lost? The biggest plays of the 2007 and 2012 Superbowls happens were made by WR's who were average at best. (Big credit goes to Eli)
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I understand the love for OBJ...he is probably going to have a Hall of Fame career. He make the Giants better right now . . . but maybe paying him 18-20M/year will make the Giants worse in the future?
Not paying him will definitely make them worse...or somebody else much better.
That is purely opinion. I'd venture a guess that dumping 25-35% of available cap into 3-4 players is a recipe for disaster.
The Giants will have 40% of available cap dollars tied up in 4 players next year assuming a salary cap of $170M.
Eli 22.2M
JPP 17.5M
OV 17M
JJ 13M
Almost $70M tied up in 4 players. Lets say OBJ is extended and his hit next year is $14M. Almost 50% of your cap space goes to 5 guys. Just split the remaining $86M between 45 guys (top 51 salaries).
I know you can do things to make room...but at some point you have a really imbalanced roster.
The OBJs of the league are easy, it's the next tier of guys that are tougher. Of all our impending free agents, OBJ is the one I'm least concerned with.
You don't pass on an elite talent like OBJ. You just pay him.
I think it is a great question...because it comes down to where you allocate limited $'s to make your team better. Th Giants can certainly sign him and let the chips fall where they may with the rest of the roster. But you become a winning team because of your whole roster...not just because you have OBJ on your team. OBJ can't block for Eli, or keep the opposing team from scoring.
Y
I understand the love for OBJ...he is probably going to have a Hall of Fame career. He make the Giants better right now . . . but maybe paying him 18-20M/year will make the Giants worse in the future?
Not paying him will definitely make them worse...or somebody else much better.
That is purely opinion. I'd venture a guess that dumping 25-35% of available cap into 3-4 players is a recipe for disaster.
The Giants will have 40% of available cap dollars tied up in 4 players next year assuming a salary cap of $170M.
Eli 22.2M
JPP 17.5M
OV 17M
JJ 13M
Almost $70M tied up in 4 players. Lets say OBJ is extended and his hit next year is $14M. Almost 50% of your cap space goes to 5 guys. Just split the remaining $86M between 45 guys (top 51 salaries).
I know you can do things to make room...but at some point you have a really imbalanced roster.
over the cap - ( New Window )
Eli is no longer a long-term contract though, so that's part of the consideration.
Let him play out his 5th year option, tag him, tag him again. If he chooses to sit, trade him for a haul.
I love the player, but paying megabucks for a declining asset in a salary cap world is foolish. He's not going to be breaking 70 yard slants every other week when he's 28+. The attrition catches up with everyone. Plus, we will likely be in the hunt for a new qb by that time.
Nothing to do with any of the off field stuff or any diva crap that so many get wrapped up in. Purely from a roster standpoint it's way too much money for a declining player. It's paying for past performance. The second half of his career won't be as productive as his first.
Let him play out his 5th year option, tag him, tag him again. If he chooses to sit, trade him for a haul.
I love the player, but paying megabucks for a declining asset in a salary cap world is foolish. He's not going to be breaking 70 yard slants every other week when he's 28+. The attrition catches up with everyone. Plus, we will likely be in the hunt for a new qb by that time.
Nothing to do with any of the off field stuff or any diva crap that so many get wrapped up in. Purely from a roster standpoint it's way too much money for a declining player. It's paying for past performance. The second half of his career won't be as productive as his first.
That said, I am sure the Giants will pay him.
Declining asset? In addition, do you know how young Beckham is? If Odell got the same exact contract Brown got a year from now, he'd be the same age Brown is today at the end of the deal. Odell would be 29 at the end of a 4 year deal he gets NEXT year.
Your description is a more accurate representation of the Steelers' predicament than the Giants.
Eli is no longer a long-term contract though, so that's part of the consideration.
3 more years if he plays out his contract.
I'm not saying you don't pay OBJ, but if you do...your making a choice not to put money into the team elsewhere. Remember how we were trying to figure out how to pay Nicks and Cruz. Nicks hit the wall before the Giants had to pay him and Cruz got paid and the Giants got NOTHING out of that deal. Imagine if the Giants had paid both.
I am one that questions putting the money that will be needed to secure OBJ into a WR. I don't think an HOF WR is a necessary ingredient to a teams success. Good line play, a competent QB and solid defensive backs are much more important.
attached is a reminder of the player we're discussing. sometimes even I forget how special he is. it is a privilege to watch him play the sport - even if you don't necessarily "like" him.
he deserves to be the highest paid non-QB in the league, as he is a 1 man wrecking crew capable of scoring as soon as he touches the ball. ODB Career Highlights - ( New Window )
How many of those plays happened in games the Giants lost? The biggest plays of the 2007 and 2012 Superbowls happens were made by WR's who were average at best. (Big credit goes to Eli)
Your second paragraph is ridiculous.. 2007 without Plaxico we never get to the Superbowl.. If you don't believe me just look at what happened to Giants without Plax in 2008.. Even when a stud WR doesn't get yards he is useful.. without the 2 starting WR we go 3-11 instead of 7-7 in the first 14 games.. in both of those cases you don't have to worry about playing in the SB without your top WRs.. Last year we definitely lose at least 3 more games without OBJ..
and I would have been secretly shopping him for a package of 2 firsts, a third and a good player since last year.
I've said this many times before. OBJ, while a generational talent, is not the type of guy you can build a team around.
He is not self aware enough to be a cornerstone player who eats up that high of a chunk of your salary cap. You will get gaudy fantasy football stats in some years but you won't get a guy who really "gets" what it is to be a professional football player in 2017. The brand of OBJ and the football player are two separate things, and I don't think the football side of it is the more important of the two to him.
So for OBJ the way the Giants need to play this is simple. The same way that they handled JPP. The money controls the attitude. So OBJ- you want big $$$? Great. Play out your rookie deal and earn it like JPP did. He might even need to play on the franchise tag for a year to prove he can be an Antonio Brown type player, both ON and OFF the field.
Antonio Brown has the self awareness to either a) Not vacation during a week leading up to a playoff game or b) Not be dumb enough to put yourself in a situation for it to be plastered all over social media. What it does is create distractions for the player and the team.
Basically....you want to get paid like Antonio Brown? Act like it.......produce like him.
and I would have been secretly shopping him for a package of 2 firsts, a third and a good player since last year.
I've said this many times before. OBJ, while a generational talent, is not the type of guy you can build a team around.
He is not self aware enough to be a cornerstone player who eats up that high of a chunk of your salary cap. You will get gaudy fantasy football stats in some years but you won't get a guy who really "gets" what it is to be a professional football player in 2017. The brand of OBJ and the football player are two separate things, and I don't think the football side of it is the more important of the two to him.
So for OBJ the way the Giants need to play this is simple. The same way that they handled JPP. The money controls the attitude. So OBJ- you want big $$$? Great. Play out your rookie deal and earn it like JPP did. He might even need to play on the franchise tag for a year to prove he can be an Antonio Brown type player, both ON and OFF the field.
Antonio Brown has the self awareness to either a) Not vacation during a week leading up to a playoff game or b) Not be dumb enough to put yourself in a situation for it to be plastered all over social media. What it does is create distractions for the player and the team.
Basically....you want to get paid like Antonio Brown? Act like it.......produce like him.
Cause Antonio Brown has never caused a distraction from social media...
and I would have been secretly shopping him for a package of 2 firsts, a third and a good player since last year.
I've said this many times before. OBJ, while a generational talent, is not the type of guy you can build a team around.
He is not self aware enough to be a cornerstone player who eats up that high of a chunk of your salary cap. You will get gaudy fantasy football stats in some years but you won't get a guy who really "gets" what it is to be a professional football player in 2017. The brand of OBJ and the football player are two separate things, and I don't think the football side of it is the more important of the two to him.
So for OBJ the way the Giants need to play this is simple. The same way that they handled JPP. The money controls the attitude. So OBJ- you want big $$$? Great. Play out your rookie deal and earn it like JPP did. He might even need to play on the franchise tag for a year to prove he can be an Antonio Brown type player, both ON and OFF the field.
Antonio Brown has the self awareness to either a) Not vacation during a week leading up to a playoff game or b) Not be dumb enough to put yourself in a situation for it to be plastered all over social media. What it does is create distractions for the player and the team.
Basically....you want to get paid like Antonio Brown? Act like it.......produce like him.
Ummm... what?????????????? Are you somehow under the impression that AB hasn't created "distractions" for his team through his use of social media? Heck, the day before the Steelers-Giants game last year, they were BOTH on social media because they were hanging out together. You're just uninformed on that topic.
The problem with comparing JPP to Odell is Odell has been FAR more consistent and productive through his first 3 seasons than JPP was. He's already "earned it".
and I would have been secretly shopping him for a package of 2 firsts, a third and a good player since last year.
I've said this many times before. OBJ, while a generational talent, is not the type of guy you can build a team around.
He is not self aware enough to be a cornerstone player who eats up that high of a chunk of your salary cap. You will get gaudy fantasy football stats in some years but you won't get a guy who really "gets" what it is to be a professional football player in 2017. The brand of OBJ and the football player are two separate things, and I don't think the football side of it is the more important of the two to him.
So for OBJ the way the Giants need to play this is simple. The same way that they handled JPP. The money controls the attitude. So OBJ- you want big $$$? Great. Play out your rookie deal and earn it like JPP did. He might even need to play on the franchise tag for a year to prove he can be an Antonio Brown type player, both ON and OFF the field.
Antonio Brown has the self awareness to either a) Not vacation during a week leading up to a playoff game or b) Not be dumb enough to put yourself in a situation for it to be plastered all over social media. What it does is create distractions for the player and the team.
Basically....you want to get paid like Antonio Brown? Act like it.......produce like him.
His numbers compared to Browns first three full seasons are comparable, and Brown rode the pine for 3 years learning.
Giants have to keep him with a 2nd deal. If he was in the open market he would get more than Brown. At this point, they should try and save a little and give him a big guaranteed amount ASAP. He's a great player and very young. Get a discount now by give my the guaranteed cash.
and I would have been secretly shopping him for a package of 2 firsts, a third and a good player since last year.
I've said this many times before. OBJ, while a generational talent, is not the type of guy you can build a team around.
He is not self aware enough to be a cornerstone player who eats up that high of a chunk of your salary cap. You will get gaudy fantasy football stats in some years but you won't get a guy who really "gets" what it is to be a professional football player in 2017. The brand of OBJ and the football player are two separate things, and I don't think the football side of it is the more important of the two to him.
So for OBJ the way the Giants need to play this is simple. The same way that they handled JPP. The money controls the attitude. So OBJ- you want big $$$? Great. Play out your rookie deal and earn it like JPP did. He might even need to play on the franchise tag for a year to prove he can be an Antonio Brown type player, both ON and OFF the field.
Antonio Brown has the self awareness to either a) Not vacation during a week leading up to a playoff game or b) Not be dumb enough to put yourself in a situation for it to be plastered all over social media. What it does is create distractions for the player and the team.
Basically....you want to get paid like Antonio Brown? Act like it.......produce like him.
You lost me with that last sentence.
Compare Beckham's first 3 years to Brown's... one of the two was clearly better. Hint: it's not Brown.
And since when is Antonio Brown a model citizen? He was just in hot water last year for filming his coach and what went on in their locker room and posting it online.
If Beckham did that, people would have crucified him.
Also- remember the absolute no-show in the playoffs. That was a brutal game.
For the record I'm not saying that we shouldn't pay OBJ. He is an all time great talent who has done things on the field that I have NEVER seen before.
What I am saying is that he needs to mature, act more like a professional, and produce in the biggest of games before I shell out a record contract. If he puts up a big year and all I hear about him is the great numbers he puts up, then I open the checkbook. It's up to him. If he wants to be a celebrity he can make tons of $$ hosting parties with Drake in Vegas every weekend. What he can't have in my opinion is both. Learn some discretion and you take the bullseye off of your back.
The good news? He was more than happy to sign his rookie contract so he either plays or doesn't get paid. The team controls the cards on this one.
RE: RE: If they can't discipline him now, how will they be able to
Also- remember the absolute no-show in the playoffs. That was a brutal game.
For the record I'm not saying that we shouldn't pay OBJ. He is an all time great talent who has done things on the field that I have NEVER seen before.
What I am saying is that he needs to mature, act more like a professional, and produce in the biggest of games before I shell out a record contract. If he puts up a big year and all I hear about him is the great numbers he puts up, then I open the checkbook. It's up to him. If he wants to be a celebrity he can make tons of $$ hosting parties with Drake in Vegas every weekend. What he can't have in my opinion is both. Learn some discretion and you take the bullseye off of your back.
The good news? He was more than happy to sign his rookie contract so he either plays or doesn't get paid. The team controls the cards on this one.
Simply put, he just has to grow up. It's a tough decison for the Giants. I'm glad I'm not the GM, I just play one here :-). They could look bad either way. Lock up him early before they've won anything and he continues to act like an idiot , they don't win, and then a young, unestablished QB comes in who he can intimidate, then what happens?
But if they let him go and it causes him to straighten out, grow up and he goes on to become a real winner they will kick themselves forever.
He has the talent to get it but I would let him play out the 5th year, then franchise him maybe twice. He has not shown the maturity. Talent wise he is one of the best, let him go out and show that he can help make the team better.
With OBJ we had a terrible O last year. The prior 2 years we had losing seasons as well. I am not saying it's his fault in any way. But is WR the most important position on the field? His maturity level doesn't warrant a long term deal at this point. I think the Giants should wait it out and see what happens. Make a decision in 2 years to see if we have a QB in place to replace Eli and make a decision then. If he holds out then thats on him, with the Franchise tag he is getting his money just not the long term commitment.
Fans need to check their perspective, if you were willing to pay JPP, pay Pugh, pay a broken down left tackle, then you sure as hell should want to pay your elite weapon on offense.
There is no reason to give him anything right now.
Just like I support a player's right to do everything in their power to get the best deal for themselves they can, I support the team I root for doing what's in its best interest and giving out long term deals with historic for the position guaranteed cash before it has to isn't that.
He can be unhappy about his current deal, but oh well. If he stays healthy, he'll get his in a year or two when it's time for it. He can thank his union for the CBA nuking rookie deals to the extent they were.
There is no reason to give him anything right now.
Just like I support a player's right to do everything in their power to get the best deal for themselves they can, I support the team I root for doing what's in its best interest and giving out long term deals with historic for the position guaranteed cash before it has to isn't that.
He can be unhappy about his current deal, but oh well. If he stays healthy, he'll get his in a year or two when it's time for it. He can thank his union for the CBA nuking rookie deals to the extent they were.
If he does stay healthy and continue on this pace, he'll be even more expensive than it would be if you did it now. This isn't a one-sided situation. There are things to consider on both sides.
is the second coming of Jerry Rice who had a long and fruitful career. You pay him top dollar and keep him in blue.
It's a different landscape now. That was pre-salary cap. No way the 49ers could have kept that team together in todays NFL.
I don't disagree with that. You can't keep everyone, but it seems obvious to me that he's one of your core players going forward. There are not many players on this roster I can see still being here when the Eli era is done.
keep that money. It will grow with interest! We can use it on someone else's UFAs!
This is a no-fucking-brainer. You've got a guy who is a top 5 weapon in the NFL, who is young and clean on lingering injuries. If you're not going to pay OBJ, get out of the business of running a football team.
Beckham is entering the fourth year of his rookie deal, is locked in for 2018 via the exercised fifth-year option, and can be tagged beyond that. Brown is entering his seventh year.
All else being equal, Beckham would probably get more; but there are too many differences - most notably, how far he is from free agency. Julio Jones and A.J. Green are probably better comps, although I think both deals were signed two years ago, so the numbers have to be adjusted upward - if only for a higher cap.
Coming back to the basic question of whether to pay Beckham top dollar, it depends on how long you make him wait for it. A new contract now would have to reflect a discount for the transfer of 2017-2018 injury risk from the player to the team. How important is that factor? Ask Hakeem Nicks and Steve Smith - or, on the other side of the coin, Victor Cruz.
There is no reason to give him anything right now.
Just like I support a player's right to do everything in their power to get the best deal for themselves they can, I support the team I root for doing what's in its best interest and giving out long term deals with historic for the position guaranteed cash before it has to isn't that.
He can be unhappy about his current deal, but oh well. If he stays healthy, he'll get his in a year or two when it's time for it. He can thank his union for the CBA nuking rookie deals to the extent they were.
If he does stay healthy and continue on this pace, he'll be even more expensive than it would be if you did it now. This isn't a one-sided situation. There are things to consider on both sides.
What player have the Giants given a deal to two years before their current contract was up to? How many players in general, across the league, get the last two years of their rookie deals torn up these days?
The Giants also have the franchise tag available to them, which gives them control over his rights until 2021 if they want to use it.
Fear of contract escalation is small potatoes, given the type of guaranteed money he's going to be after.
and then have the franchise option available in 5 years if need be. Why is it possibly better to franchise for 2 years after his rookie deal expires, and then give the long term deal. And BTW, if Im Odell I tell NYG to shove the franchise up their asses. Im not running crossing patterns on a one year deal when I have a sneaker contract.
If Odell gets hurt early in his contract, we rebuild. Eli goes, and we bottom out a bit. Such is the risk you run. It is better than planning for mediocrity.
RE: RE: Let's calm down with the Jerry Rice comparisons
When Odell turned in, by far, the best 3 years to start a receiver's career?
OK...if he keeps this level up for another 10 years then we can start talking about a comparison to Jerry Rice. Until then they aren't in the same universe. Rice put up 9 or 10 seasons that are the statistical equal or better than anything Beckham's done to this point, and in an era that was much less pass happy than today. Let's just be happy with Beckham being one of the top 3 WRs currently in the NFL. Jerry Rice is a decade away at least.
And I'll make the same point here that I made yesterday in a different thread. Between 2012-2014 Dez Bryant put together three years that equaled Beckham's three years thus far...and no one around here was calling Dez Bryant the next Jerry Rice.
And no one is calling him that now, that's for damn sure. There is no rule stating that Beckham's (or anyone else's) career trajectory has to continue along a consistent positive trajectory. If there were such a rule we'd still be watching Eli throw to Steve Smith, Hakeem Nicks, Mario Manningham, and Victor Cruz.
RE: If they can't discipline him now, how will they be able to
What are we disciplining him for exactly? Dude needs to grow up, but it sounds like you just want to punish him to prove a point. These are people. Not dogs.
Secondly, if we pay him an 8 figure salary, what do you think happens to those game checks? You can suspend him if he does something that warrants it, missing those larger checks still hurts you in the pockets. This place is absurd. I can't wait to get a deal done to see the hysterics and nasty comments come out.
Get real, Odell Beckham's deal is going to crush that like a soda can... Early guess.. 8 years for ball park, $150 million with $75 million+ guaranteed. Sounds crazy, don't believe me, just watch. I will be happy on that day, but i would love to see the post's on BBI when that day comes, LOL at his haters among the Giants fans.
RE: RE: If they can't discipline him now, how will they be able to
What are we disciplining him for exactly? Dude needs to grow up, but it sounds like you just want to punish him to prove a point. These are people. Not dogs.
Secondly, if we pay him an 8 figure salary, what do you think happens to those game checks? You can suspend him if he does something that warrants it, missing those larger checks still hurts you in the pockets. This place is absurd. I can't wait to get a deal done to see the hysterics and nasty comments come out.
1. That time he lost his mind and started spearing Josh Norman and fighting every down.
2. That time as a rookie he incited a fracas with the Rams.
3. Shouting at fans in the stand at Vikings Stadium.
4. Same game- contacting an official when he was begging for a call and getting a 15 yard penalty, then again spearing a player (Xaview Rhodes).
Those are just off the top of my head.
Regarding any issue with the 'personality & decisions' of OBJ..
Coming back to the basic question of whether to pay Beckham top dollar, it depends on how long you make him wait for it. A new contract now would have to reflect a discount for the transfer of 2017-2018 injury risk from the player to the team. How important is that factor? Ask Hakeem Nicks and Steve Smith - or, on the other side of the coin, Victor Cruz.
Good post.
RE: RE: RE: If they can't discipline him now, how will they be able to
What are we disciplining him for exactly? Dude needs to grow up, but it sounds like you just want to punish him to prove a point. These are people. Not dogs.
Secondly, if we pay him an 8 figure salary, what do you think happens to those game checks? You can suspend him if he does something that warrants it, missing those larger checks still hurts you in the pockets. This place is absurd. I can't wait to get a deal done to see the hysterics and nasty comments come out.
1. That time he lost his mind and started spearing Josh Norman and fighting every down.
2. That time as a rookie he incited a fracas with the Rams.
3. Shouting at fans in the stand at Vikings Stadium.
4. Same game- contacting an official when he was begging for a call and getting a 15 yard penalty, then again spearing a player (Xaview Rhodes).
Those are just off the top of my head.
1) He served a suspension and fine for the Norman thing.
2) Rams were trying to play dirty, that fracas started because he bounced back up, and Damontre Moore did Damontre Moore things
3) I watched that game at a local bar, so I probably missed that occurrence.
4) I specifically recall him getting hit when he was already out of bounds, begging for the call, and accidentally bumped the ref. Ensuing play he got a taunting penalty.
I'm not saying he's above criticism, but we kind of pick things apart to the point of not appreciating a special talent for what it is. I don't know what the obsession is to punish OBJ, seems like many incidents started because officials were looking the other way on obvious dirty plays. He needs to grow up, but he's also learning with a target on his back, which is part of the territory for superstar players. He just has to prove some of those things in the past don't get in his head anymore, and I think he's at least taking the measures to do that.
There is no reason to give him anything right now.
Just like I support a player's right to do everything in their power to get the best deal for themselves they can, I support the team I root for doing what's in its best interest and giving out long term deals with historic for the position guaranteed cash before it has to isn't that.
He can be unhappy about his current deal, but oh well. If he stays healthy, he'll get his in a year or two when it's time for it. He can thank his union for the CBA nuking rookie deals to the extent they were.
If he does stay healthy and continue on this pace, he'll be even more expensive than it would be if you did it now. This isn't a one-sided situation. There are things to consider on both sides.
What player have the Giants given a deal to two years before their current contract was up to? How many players in general, across the league, get the last two years of their rookie deals torn up these days?
Not many. Just the great ones. Which applies here. Some examples would include JJ Watt and, as mentioned, Brown.
attached is a reminder of the player we're discussing. sometimes even I forget how special he is. it is a privilege to watch him play the sport - even if you don't necessarily "like" him.
he deserves to be the highest paid non-QB in the league, as he is a 1 man wrecking crew capable of scoring as soon as he touches the ball. ODB Career Highlights - ( New Window )
How many of those plays happened in games the Giants lost? The biggest plays of the 2007 and 2012 Superbowls happens were made by WR's who were average at best. (Big credit goes to Eli)
This offense would've been the worst in football without Odell . Plaxico and Steve Smith weren't mediocre in 07. Nicks Manningham Cruz was an excelent WR trio.
There is no reason to give him anything right now.
Just like I support a player's right to do everything in their power to get the best deal for themselves they can, I support the team I root for doing what's in its best interest and giving out long term deals with historic for the position guaranteed cash before it has to isn't that.
He can be unhappy about his current deal, but oh well. If he stays healthy, he'll get his in a year or two when it's time for it. He can thank his union for the CBA nuking rookie deals to the extent they were.
If he does stay healthy and continue on this pace, he'll be even more expensive than it would be if you did it now. This isn't a one-sided situation. There are things to consider on both sides.
What player have the Giants given a deal to two years before their current contract was up to? How many players in general, across the league, get the last two years of their rookie deals torn up these days?
Not many. Just the great ones. Which applies here. Some examples would include JJ Watt and, as mentioned, Brown.
Neither of which were Giants and Brown only had one year torn up, not two. Watt also now is currently dealing with major injury problems and Houston still owes him a ton money going forward.
And deservedly so. He's earned the right to be the highest paid WR in the game to this point. Obviously an injury or self inflicted gun shot wound would change the analysis.
The Giants haven't had a great player to do this for. So I'm not sure that taking the precedent that they haven't done it to this point means much. We are not talking about a typical player who had one big year. The best player the Giants have had to worry about paying was Cruz, and he wasn't a kid with a hall of fame pace three year run of all-pro level production. The standard doesn't apply. Even JPP before the fireworks wasn't this type of player.
You trade him out of the division and hopefully conference too.
Why? His stock will never be higher and the Giants will land a top #1 pick to go along with their other #1 pick.
Why are we going to pay him a HUGE contract, the highest paid WR in the game when the person throwing to him is either an un-proven QB ( who very possibly won't come close to Eli's production) or a string of moderate QB's that could take the length of his contract to eventually be supplemented by their next franchise QB.
There are too many quality players on D that will soon want to get paid huge money ( Collins for sure) and our O line is still shit.
Keep in mind that Jones and Brown have never won a SB and Pittsburgh has one of the top RB's in Bell and BR to boot.
I would rather trade him and recover a premium draft pic to help build both lines while eventually replacing him with a WR that will never duplicate his potential/production but will do his job well enough in combination with the much, much improved help in the trenches.
OBJ will not win a SB with this team given the state of those around him. Way to many upgrades needed.
I agree with those who would trade him. I'd do it now. To me he may have Jerry Rice-type talent, but he also has Terrell Owens-type mentality. I absolutely hate primma donna players.
You trade him out of the division and hopefully conference too.
Why? His stock will never be higher and the Giants will land a top #1 pick to go along with their other #1 pick.
Why are we going to pay him a HUGE contract, the highest paid WR in the game when the person throwing to him is either an un-proven QB ( who very possibly won't come close to Eli's production) or a string of moderate QB's that could take the length of his contract to eventually be supplemented by their next franchise QB.
There are too many quality players on D that will soon want to get paid huge money ( Collins for sure) and our O line is still shit.
Keep in mind that Jones and Brown have never won a SB and Pittsburgh has one of the top RB's in Bell and BR to boot.
I would rather trade him and recover a premium draft pic to help build both lines while eventually replacing him with a WR that will never duplicate his potential/production but will do his job well enough in combination with the much, much improved help in the trenches.
OBJ will not win a SB with this team given the state of those around him. Way to many upgrades needed.
Wait... what?
OBJ will not win a SB with this team given the state of those around him. Way to many upgrades needed.
How many NFL teams have better rosters than NYG right now? I don't think anyone could honestly name 5.
The Giants have one of the most balanced rosters in the NFL right now. Very few holes. You want to point to the OL? Fine.. every team has a weakness. You can't find me one NFL team without one.
Secondly...
Keep in mind that Jones and Brown have never won a SB and Pittsburgh has one of the top RB's in Bell and BR to boot.
This is a bit disingenuous as A) Jones JUST played in, and should have won one this past February if not for mind-bogglingly bad play-calling and a borderline miracle catch by Edelman.
and B) Brown played in one his rookie year - PIT lost by one score to a red hot Aaron Rodgers.
So, your point there pretty much rings hollow as both Jones and Brown have been part of championship caliber teams.
If you want to point out that Brown was a rookie and was making rookie money in 2010, okay. That was not the case for Jones last year and ATL never even gets to the SB without him. Full stop.
The Giants haven't had a great player to do this for. So I'm not sure that taking the precedent that they haven't done it to this point means much. We are not talking about a typical player who had one big year. The best player the Giants have had to worry about paying was Cruz, and he wasn't a kid with a hall of fame pace three year run of all-pro level production. The standard doesn't apply. Even JPP before the fireworks wasn't this type of player.
The first question I asked was about the Giants, then made a general ask about around the league.
You replied with no Giants (because they largely don't operate this way, with anyone -- each time even Eli got his much "safer" QB deals, it was with one year left) and two players, one of which got the typical for the league one year left treatment and wasn't applicable anyway and another that started to get hit with major injuries right about when his first deal would have been up.
I get that fans are attached to a great talent, but it's simply not common NFL business to rip up two years on rookie deals. It very, very rarely is a good idea, given the way things can change in an instant in this league.
I agree with those who would trade him. I'd do it now. To me he may have Jerry Rice-type talent, but he also has Terrell Owens-type mentality. I absolutely hate primma donna players.
Terrell Owens nearly won the Eagles a SB and the Cowboys were at their most recent best with him catching passes from Romo.
If you need players to be likeable to be on your team, good guys, you won't be able to build a 53 man roster or even starting lineup, never mind field a decently competitive squad.
I'd love to go back to late 2014 and read the opinions on Beckham from that point in time on this board.
I bet you couldn't find one negative comment on the guy from that time period. 99% of this board and almost every single Giant fan was waxing poetic about how exciting and how incredible a talent he was.
It's amazing how many people have completely changed their tune on him, especially when you consider how petty the reasons are. And his play has not declined one bit.
If I said in December of 2014 or January of 2015 that Odell Beckham would continue to play at the level he displayed as a rookie and that a large contingent of the Giants fan base would want to get rid of him by 2017 without him ever having been in any sort of legal trouble, no one would have ever believed it.
This team could be better than 2016 and have a worse record in 2017. The schedule starts very tough, and in the NFL when you play someone is almost as important as who you play.
I think the team is pretty good, but it's still awfully thin on both lines.
Nothing is guaranteed in the NFL, but I'd love to see a list of teams people think have better rosters than the Giants do right now.. because if we're being realistic, the list would be quite short.
No, I'm not saying NYG are the best team in the league.
But, as of now? Roster-wise? How many teams have a better WR trio than Beckham/Marshall/Shepard? How many have a better trio of corners than Jenkins/DRC/Apple? How many have a better safety than Collins? A better pair of DE's than Vernon/JPP? A better DT than Harrison?
Sure, our OL has question marks. We don't have unlimited depth everywhere. Does anyone?
Has Beckham done things we all wish he hadn't? Absolutely.
Has he had a suicide attempt, or if you believe him and his media team, a "prescription medication accident"?
Has he earned the ire of the vast majority of his teammates?
Has he had public workout press conferences in his driveway?
Has he feuded with his coaches and QB?
Owens wasn't just a "diva WR", he was arguably mentally unstable. Drawing a line between Owens and Beckham is just lazy hyperbole. Beckham is a generational talent who is on pace to do things that have never been done, and his behavior hasn't even approached that of an Owens, a Randy Moss, or a Chad Johnson. People need to get real and find some perspective on what they're complaining about.
Antonio Brown is also turning 29 next month, Beckham won't turn 25 until halfway through this season. His production to start his career blows Brown's away and he's been neck and neck with him since entering the league.
Richburg played injured all season and was a shell of himself. Pugh missed 4-5 games, and Rashad Jennings may have been one of the worst starting RB's in football. The guy had holes to run through and ran right into someone's back instead.
The run game picked up when Perkins started getting more carries.
This is mostly the same line that Eli had a career year under in 2015. Eli needs to be better than he was in 2016.
The Giants haven't had a great player to do this for. So I'm not sure that taking the precedent that they haven't done it to this point means much. We are not talking about a typical player who had one big year. The best player the Giants have had to worry about paying was Cruz, and he wasn't a kid with a hall of fame pace three year run of all-pro level production. The standard doesn't apply. Even JPP before the fireworks wasn't this type of player.
The first question I asked was about the Giants, then made a general ask about around the league.
You replied with no Giants (because they largely don't operate this way, with anyone -- each time even Eli got his much "safer" QB deals, it was with one year left) and two players, one of which got the typical for the league one year left treatment and wasn't applicable anyway and another that started to get hit with major injuries right about when his first deal would have been up.
I get that fans are attached to a great talent, but it's simply not common NFL business to rip up two years on rookie deals. It very, very rarely is a good idea, given the way things can change in an instant in this league.
But, again, the last time the Giants were in something close to this situation, it was Strahan. And even then it doesn't really fit the profile. I wouldn't use Eli as an example, since Eli Manning's first three years don't hold a candle to what we're seeing Beckham do. There were legitimate questions about Eli Manning's future as a starting player right up until like week 8 of year 3.
The Giants haven't had a great player to do this for. So I'm not sure that taking the precedent that they haven't done it to this point means much. We are not talking about a typical player who had one big year. The best player the Giants have had to worry about paying was Cruz, and he wasn't a kid with a hall of fame pace three year run of all-pro level production. The standard doesn't apply. Even JPP before the fireworks wasn't this type of player.
The first question I asked was about the Giants, then made a general ask about around the league.
You replied with no Giants (because they largely don't operate this way, with anyone -- each time even Eli got his much "safer" QB deals, it was with one year left) and two players, one of which got the typical for the league one year left treatment and wasn't applicable anyway and another that started to get hit with major injuries right about when his first deal would have been up.
I get that fans are attached to a great talent, but it's simply not common NFL business to rip up two years on rookie deals. It very, very rarely is a good idea, given the way things can change in an instant in this league.
But, again, the last time the Giants were in something close to this situation, it was Strahan. And even then it doesn't really fit the profile. I wouldn't use Eli as an example, since Eli Manning's first three years don't hold a candle to what we're seeing Beckham do. There were legitimate questions about Eli Manning's future as a starting player right up until like week 8 of year 3.
I used Manning as a reference because there's generally a lower risk of injury for a QB. If it makes you feel better look outside the team and at how Luck didn't get get extended until he had one year left or Cam didn't. Beckham isn't more valuable to the Giants than they are or were to their teams and even with the hits they take, there's less likelihood of them being taken out or sent into permanent decline by injury than a WR.
Luck and Cam both signed deals slotted at #1 overall pick $
especially at a QB's salary, I don't think there's much urgency to shred up their current deals.
Cam and Luck were under the current CBA and rookie slotting, so there was no practical reason to touch their deals til one year out -- almost like how there's not much reason to rip Beckham's up now, two years before it's up, with years of franchising if it comes to that, other than fans claiming "he deserves it".
One of the very rare examples to point to that compares is Watt's deal and, when you look at the shape his body may be in, I'd pump the brakes before declaring that as a move that worked out just yet.
We've destroyed Redskins fans for claiming they had championship caliber rosters when they clearly did not.
I'll ask again...
Give me a list of teams you think have better talent foundations than NYG right now.
Give me a list of teams without a glaring weakness somewhere.
I'll wait.
Keep waiting. Power rankings don't interest me.
I'm not asking you for power rankings.
I'm asking you which teams don't have flaws or which teams collectively have a better talent pool.
If you think I'm being Redskins fan-esque by thinking NYG has a better roster in place right now than many other teams in the league, it should be easy to tell me I'm wrong and point to teams that are positioned better
Again, I am not claiming NYG have the best roster in football. I am not claiming that they the best team in the NFC.
What I am saying is that it's ridiculous for a poster to claim that we should trade Beckham because there are "too many holes" on this team right now and we're not a contender.
If someone can definitively say that, I'd like to know which teams don't have as many holes as we do. I think it's fair to ask.
There was never a question that a deal was going to get done because teams don't let Quarterbacks they are sold on leave town. Luck didn't get an extension done until the last year of his rookie deal, but we also should probably recall that Luck had considerably more money coming his way even on his rookie deal. He had $15 million dollars guaranteed before he ever threw a pass, in addition to playing a generally safer position. It would've been pretty hard to defend if he had held out early to try to get a deal done.
Decided to do some digging and find prior examples of top-level players holding out and what the result was.
Emmitt Smith, drafted 1991, held out for the start of his fourth year, including all of training camp and 2 regular season games before Jerry caved in and made him the highest paid runningback in the NFL.
Eric Dickerson, one of the greatest players of all time, held out after two years. Of course in thatera the franchise just laughed at him. But it resulted in him eventually getting traded.
Hines Ward held out in '05 after 4 years, especially relevant as it's the Steelers. Team played hardball after 4 great seasons, Ward held out. Other players went public in support of ward, and he got his deal just before week 1.
Same franchise that paid Brown. Also the same franchise that shared the same conservative tendencies toward valuing players as the Giants.
One could certainly argue that paying non-QB position players a lot of money is too big of a risk, but that's the sport we're watching. It's the most violent team sport in the world. We know the average career length is 3-4 years. If you're trying to avoid risk, you wouldn't sign any player to a long term deal. Risk comes with the territory.
What it comes down to more than managing risk, is that ultimately, teams and fans don't really have an interest in paying ANY player. Even Jerry Rice had to hold out to be fairly paid for his value.
You trade him out of the division and hopefully conference too.
Why? His stock will never be higher and the Giants will land a top #1 pick to go along with their other #1 pick.
Why are we going to pay him a HUGE contract, the highest paid WR in the game when the person throwing to him is either an un-proven QB ( who very possibly won't come close to Eli's production) or a string of moderate QB's that could take the length of his contract to eventually be supplemented by their next franchise QB.
There are too many quality players on D that will soon want to get paid huge money ( Collins for sure) and our O line is still shit.
Keep in mind that Jones and Brown have never won a SB and Pittsburgh has one of the top RB's in Bell and BR to boot.
I would rather trade him and recover a premium draft pic to help build both lines while eventually replacing him with a WR that will never duplicate his potential/production but will do his job well enough in combination with the much, much improved help in the trenches.
OBJ will not win a SB with this team given the state of those around him. Way to many upgrades needed.
yes. 1 of the best players in football, entering his prime, should be traded for the false hope of a draft pick. Brilliant.
Build both lines? The Giants currently have 3/4 of their DL comprised of some of the best players at their respective positions and just landed Hankins 2.0 in the draft. Most teams would kill for this DL.
OL? Great. Let's trade someone who can score from anywhere for a quality tackle prospect who might be good... then we have an old Marshall, Shepard, and nothing ... but at least Eli's heir apparent will have time to realize no ones open.
RE: Quarterbacks are somewhat of a different animal
There was never a question that a deal was going to get done because teams don't let Quarterbacks they are sold on leave town. Luck didn't get an extension done until the last year of his rookie deal, but we also should probably recall that Luck had considerably more money coming his way even on his rookie deal. He had $15 million dollars guaranteed before he ever threw a pass, in addition to playing a generally safer position. It would've been pretty hard to defend if he had held out early to try to get a deal done.
Decided to do some digging and find prior examples of top-level players holding out and what the result was.
Emmitt Smith, drafted 1991, held out for the start of his fourth year, including all of training camp and 2 regular season games before Jerry caved in and made him the highest paid runningback in the NFL.
Eric Dickerson, one of the greatest players of all time, held out after two years. Of course in thatera the franchise just laughed at him. But it resulted in him eventually getting traded.
Hines Ward held out in '05 after 4 years, especially relevant as it's the Steelers. Team played hardball after 4 great seasons, Ward held out. Other players went public in support of ward, and he got his deal just before week 1.
Same franchise that paid Brown. Also the same franchise that shared the same conservative tendencies toward valuing players as the Giants.
One could certainly argue that paying non-QB position players a lot of money is too big of a risk, but that's the sport we're watching. It's the most violent team sport in the world. We know the average career length is 3-4 years. If you're trying to avoid risk, you wouldn't sign any player to a long term deal. Risk comes with the territory.
What it comes down to more than managing risk, is that ultimately, teams and fans don't really have an interest in paying ANY player. Even Jerry Rice had to hold out to be fairly paid for his value.
Beckham has over 8M guaranteed left over these next two, thanks to them picking up his fifth year option. His situation is what it is because of the current CBA his union agreed to and where he was drafted/positional averages.
I've never had a problem with players doing what they can to get the best deals for themselves or with a team paying a great player big money when the time comes to either. I root for the unform at the end of the day though and, no matter how much some cry "he deserves it", a team locking in to paying anyone monster money before they have to rarely is wise and the way teams largely do their business, league wide, backs it up.
Are neglecting to acknowledge Beckham's impact on games. You can argue Julio/Brown/Beckham all day but no receiver in the league impacts games the way he does. He's a threat to take it to the house every time he touches the ball, and outstanding plays by him directly led to several wins last year (Baltimore, Dallas second game off the top of my head).
This game is about matchups and impact players -- you don't get rid of guys like Beckham.
You picked up his option, he doesn't' like it, fuck him. The sooner he's not wearing blue the better, he's not going to win a fucking thing in his career.
You picked up his option, he doesn't' like it, fuck him. The sooner he's not wearing blue the better, he's not going to win a fucking thing in his career.
That's some groundbreaking analysis. What do you have besides platitudes here?
You picked up his option, he doesn't' like it, fuck him. The sooner he's not wearing blue the better, he's not going to win a fucking thing in his career.
Too ambiguous. Get off the fence and take a position...
Has Beckham even said anything about being unhappy that the Giants picked up his option?
People probably said Randy Moss would never win anything, either.. he was a helmet catch away from being on a team that completed a perfect season.
Terrell Owens was part of the only Eagles team that has played in a Super Bowl since 1980.
The get-off-my-lawners said Beckham was a losing player before last year, too. Then the Giants won 11 games.. a few of them directly on his back. Of course, the playoff game was all his fault, though (nary a peep about the defense that allowed 38 points.. including a backbreaking Hail Mary to end the first half)
But hey, why not double and triple down on the bullshit here. It's fun!
better to just take a mental note of the ridiculous comments like that one than try to convince people otherwise. I lost the patience with continuing this debate early this offseason, but you've been doing yeoman's work in these Beckham threads lately. along with a few others.
Or basing a decision on signing him long term on his poor playoff game is just lost. You're gonna condemn a player because he had one bad game and assume he's never going to play well in a playoff game, ever? Really? You're that convinced? One game out of 40 or so. One.
Don't even get me started on the whole bullshit myth on player distractions or so called bad locker room guys. No one can prove shit in this department and no one ever will but I can prove that "bad" or "toxic" locker rooms have won Super Bowls. Multiple. By the same team. And we have heard nothing but good things about Beckham in the locker room.
There's plenty of evidence to suggest that there is no such thing as a player distraction. The media made it up years ago. Then double and tripled down on it and literally forumulated their own locker room and team narrative. It's become a paradigm. A ever evolving dynamic of attention that is rooted in 100% bullshit. It's speculative at best.
The only proven negative resulting from Beckham's "antics" or "problems" have been the 4-5 personal foul penalties called on him over the three years. I'd venture that the average wr probably has 1-2 called on him over that time. everything else is just noise. Should we want Beckham to be perfect on and off the field? Yes. That doesn't mean he has to be the coolest of cool or the jeter of the NFL. Odds are his health will be the biggest factor in determining how good the long term contract looks when all is said and done.
In a NY minute. Generational talents don't come along very often. When they do you keep them in your locker room for their entire career barring catastrophic injury.
have a hard time paying up until he proves he can play with a level head. Of course he is worth the money, but will he mature to match his talents on the field? I was fairly disappointed last season with some of his antics, after going into those games saying he learned from the year before and would be okay, then BOOM more meltdowns.
situation. He lays it all out with options at hand. See Friday Reading thread.
Giants can control OBJ for only $28M over the next 3 years with current contract plus one tag year. While I am not suggesting that is prudent, if the OBJ camp can't wait that long then maybe he will accept an under-market deal now to get the money flowing.
At market, this guy could command as high as $19M/year. So maybe at an under-market 5 year deal gives him say $15M/year with 50% of it guaranteed?
Don't give him another penny for the next two years. He has no leverage. Then after the two years see where he is physically and franchise him if they want to keep him for another year. Odds are after 6 NFL seasons he'll be used up. They're fools if they give this guy a long term contract unless it's structured in a way they can cut him after two years.
you have to realize that there is a contingent on BBI that has made their minds up the Beckham is nothing but a distraction, sideshow and emerging Cancer and the sooner he's off the team the better.
Abhorrently poor logic, but it is what it is. What confuses me is that at least two of the people vocal about getting what we can for Beckham and letting him become somebody else's headache were pretty adamant that getting rid of Will Hill was a terrible idea.
Not sure how subtracting the best skill player I've seen on this team is a good idea, but people keep trying to educate me on why.
RE: Decent article on by Barnwell of ESPN on OBJ contract
situation. He lays it all out with options at hand. See Friday Reading thread.
Giants can control OBJ for only $28M over the next 3 years with current contract plus one tag year. While I am not suggesting that is prudent, if the OBJ camp can't wait that long then maybe he will accept an under-market deal now to get the money flowing.
At market, this guy could command as high as $19M/year. So maybe at an under-market 5 year deal gives him say $15M/year with 50% of it guaranteed?
I alluded to this scenario in another OBJ thread. If he wants to set a new bar in WR pay, then he has to shoulder the injury risk until he is eligible. If he wants the Giants to tear up the cost controlled contract that OBJ signed and have the organization shoulder the injury risk and give him guaranteed money, then he should be amenable to accepting a below market deal. If he wants top dollar now, then fuck him. The Giants should be prepared to levy fines in the event of any mandatory activity holdouts and potential suspensions in the event his behavior is deemed detrimental to the team.
Diver - I am good with everything you wrote, but your last sentence
situation. He lays it all out with options at hand. See Friday Reading thread.
Giants can control OBJ for only $28M over the next 3 years with current contract plus one tag year. While I am not suggesting that is prudent, if the OBJ camp can't wait that long then maybe he will accept an under-market deal now to get the money flowing.
At market, this guy could command as high as $19M/year. So maybe at an under-market 5 year deal gives him say $15M/year with 50% of it guaranteed?
Giants would be smart to get him now at a below-market deal. This is what I was getting at with my proposal. Give him an extension that pays him better than AB. Doesn't have to be by much. Just better.
But tack it on to his current contract so that over the course of the contract the AAV is lower, and make sure the guarantees are something we can live with if there is injury and he cannot play it out.
Of course, like many on this thread I want to keep him at a bargain rate. But I also don't want him going to another team, and I want him to be a player that will always be a NYG favorite. Why not give him a chance to earn a huge check now and commit to us in that exact way? Not sure if he would go for it, but it seems reasonable that he might, particularly if he is currently interested in extending his deal.
So, give him an extension with $21MM signing bonus over 7 years, low salaries over the next two years (similar to what he's now going to earn), and then have the big dollars hit when Eli's contract comes off the books.
He will be 31 when he hits FA and you can decide then if he's still the goods. In the meantime he can destroy every receiving record the NYG have and possibly make a run at NFL records as well.
It is so odd the range of views OBJ brings out on BBI
Without question he has been immature at times and his penalties/suspensions clearly don't help the team. But way too talented to be so harsh to want him to really leave. How can a guy be so critical to numerous team wins over the past 3 years, and not be the same to a potential future Super Bowl run?
I threw out a post in jest earlier this week on "maybe trading him for 2 first rounders" to stir the pot on the topic. And I was shocked to see how many BBI'ers wold do it for less.
Time & circumstances will mature him, and if so, we are only left with perhaps the greatest WR in recent memory...
you have to realize that there is a contingent on BBI that has made their minds up the Beckham is nothing but a distraction, sideshow and emerging Cancer and the sooner he's off the team the better.
Abhorrently poor logic, but it is what it is. What confuses me is that at least two of the people vocal about getting what we can for Beckham and letting him become somebody else's headache were pretty adamant that getting rid of Will Hill was a terrible idea.
Not sure how subtracting the best skill player I've seen on this team is a good idea, but people keep trying to educate me on why.
I just can't understand why people are so eager to push the greatest offensive talent we've ever seen in this uniform out the door as soon as possible.
Because he's not at OTA's? Because he's been flagged in a few games for losing his composure?
The way people talk about this guy, you'd think he was a rapist and a serial killer.
This idea that he'll never win anything in his career because he's some "diva" is just such fucking bullshit that I can't even keep a straight face when I read it. It's lunacy. Nothing about Odell Beckham lowers the Giants' ceiling or limits their potential. It's the exact fucking opposite.
This idea that he'll never win anything in his career because he's some "diva" is just such fucking bullshit that I can't even keep a straight face when I read it. It's lunacy. Nothing about Odell Beckham lowers the Giants' ceiling or limits their potential. It's the exact fucking opposite.
Ironically, Josh Norman has played in a Super Bowl, with a decent shot at winning a ring. Not to mention the list of players that can be considered jackasses or divas who hold a ring is lengthy.
I didn't read this thread until now, figuring it'd be 100 posts
of 80% 'pay the man'. Now, I learn the Giants roster isn't all that impressive because they don't have depth all over, and Beckham will never win a thing.
In hindsight, I'd have been better off not reading the thread.
The Eagles nearly won a Super Bowl because of Terrell Owens.
He came back from a broken leg well before he was supposed to and was the Eagles' best player in that game.
Same guy that was doing sit ups in his driveway and had all sorts of rifts with his own QB.
That 2004 team with Owens was also the best team the Eagles fielded in the Reid era and was the best team they've fielded maybe ever. It was the only 13 win team they've ever had in their entire franchise history.
And yet, I have to keep wading through this bullshit idea that "diva" WR's wreck team chemistry and prevent teams from winning anything.
RE: Diver - I am good with everything you wrote, but your last sentence
needs to also treat the OBJ with sufficient respect as long as he is doing the same to the organization.
I have no problem with the Giants giving him everything he deserves. If he shows up and does his job, he'll get paid in due time. If he wants it now, then he has to accept a below market deal. If he wants to set the market, then he'll have to wait as the Giants have the leverage in controlling his rights. Mutual respect will go a long way. If he hold out, then expect the fines. If the relationship deteriorates and he presses his case in social media and traditional media, then be prepared for fines and suspension due to conduct detrimental to the team.
that there was universal outrage and vitriol directed at Burress for derailing that season from talk radio and the local media.
A lot of people to this day blame the eagles playoff loss on "the defense getting gassed" even though they only gave up 16 points in that game and the Giants finished 1-4 after Plax shot himself.
You didn't see this kind of split between fans when Plax shot himself and his actions directly caused a great season to go down the tubes.
I advocated trading Plax the summer after the Super Bowl, and was livid when he got a new contract.
I don't expect Beckham to shoot himself, but it's not beyond the pale to suggest that his personality could become a problem. And at least we're starting to see the fanboys admit that he's a diva. I suppose that's progress.
Primarily though I'm just opposed to committing so much money to him. I'm surprised there are so many people that just assume he's going to be Jerry Rice, as if that were an easy thing to do. It's like everyone here has forgotten about all the great receivers we've had recently who flamed out too early.
And at least we're starting to see the fanboys admit that he's a diva. I suppose that's progress.
Has it really been reduced to calling fans of the team "fanboys" as a derogatory comment because they aren't considering a guy who is the team's best player to be an absolute Cancer?
Put aside the fact that the default belief system of "Fans" is to root positively for the team and see the contradictions that exist.
You're talking about a fanbase that insinuated that Reese and the coaches were morons for holding Will Hill to a certain standard and then out the other side of their mouth considered the front office enablers of a wife-beater in Josh Brown.
Furthermore, people seem to lump Beckham in as if he's an absolute shitshow off the field, yet he's had not a single arrest or done anything other than acts of self-promotion, but the guy gets killed like he's the knife-wielding friend of Ray Lewis.
You didn't see this kind of split between fans when Plax shot himself and his actions directly caused a great season to go down the tubes.
I advocated trading Plax the summer after the Super Bowl, and was livid when he got a new contract.
I don't expect Beckham to shoot himself, but it's not beyond the pale to suggest that his personality could become a problem. And at least we're starting to see the fanboys admit that he's a diva. I suppose that's progress.
Primarily though I'm just opposed to committing so much money to him. I'm surprised there are so many people that just assume he's going to be Jerry Rice, as if that were an easy thing to do. It's like everyone here has forgotten about all the great receivers we've had recently who flamed out too early.
You're consistent but I'd be willing to bet a lot of fans souring on Beckham now we're the same ones that were Plax "fanboys" when he directly screwed over the team.
He may or may not be Jerry Rice but he's the most explosive receiver this franchise has ever had at this point in his career. A lot can happen between now and when the organization has to make a decision. If he stays healthy and continues to produce at this level, he will get paid and deservedly so.
And at least we're starting to see the fanboys admit that he's a diva. I suppose that's progress.
Has it really been reduced to calling fans of the team "fanboys" as a derogatory comment because they aren't considering a guy who is the team's best player to be an absolute Cancer?
Put aside the fact that the default belief system of "Fans" is to root positively for the team and see the contradictions that exist.
You're talking about a fanbase that insinuated that Reese and the coaches were morons for holding Will Hill to a certain standard and then out the other side of their mouth considered the front office enablers of a wife-beater in Josh Brown.
Furthermore, people seem to lump Beckham in as if he's an absolute shitshow off the field, yet he's had not a single arrest or done anything other than acts of self-promotion, but the guy gets killed like he's the knife-wielding friend of Ray Lewis.
After listening to three years of encomiums to Beckham's "competitiveness" and "fire" that were usually just rationalizing his assholish behavior, you could understand how I'd view him being called a diva as progress.
I pointed out about two games into his career that if he were an Eagle we'd all think he was a total asshole. I still feel that way strongly.
And I can live with the Giants having a total asshole as a player... Just don't tell me it's because of his "fire" or whatever. People tried to sell that same line of bullshit with Shockey.
I wouldn't call him a cancer at this point, but I wouldn't rule out the possibility that he becomes one.
still be an asshole and have all the fire and competitiveness in the world, along with a high work ethic.
Terrell Owens, Randy Moss, Ochocinco and if you want to add Beckham to the group all can be looked at as assholes, and nearly every single one of them put in the most work in the offseason and in the training room. You can question Moss on giving up in games possibly, but the guy worked his ass off, and actually continues to do so by working with youth groups on boot camps of sorts.
People shouldn't confuse the two aspects, just as they shouldn't confuse being an asshole on the field with being a criminal or a bad dude off the field.
still be an asshole and have all the fire and competitiveness in the world, along with a high work ethic.
Terrell Owens, Randy Moss, Ochocinco and if you want to add Beckham to the group all can be looked at as assholes, and nearly every single one of them put in the most work in the offseason and in the training room. You can question Moss on giving up in games possibly, but the guy worked his ass off, and actually continues to do so by working with youth groups on boot camps of sorts.
People shouldn't confuse the two aspects, just as they shouldn't confuse being an asshole on the field with being a criminal or a bad dude off the field.
I don't think there's anything wrong with saying that Beckham is ultra-competitive or passionate. I still believe those things about him because it's almost impossible to get to the level he has if you're neither of those things.
I don't think every athlete has the same level of drive.
I think he's struggled to channel his emotions correctly at times, but he's never left a shred of doubt that he cares immensely about football and being the best player he can possibly be.
The diva stuff is overblown anyway. We've never seen Beckham throw Eli under the bus or be called a bad teammate. We've seen guys like Dez scream at teammates on the sidelines during games, Owens' issues with McNabb were well-documented.. Beckham hit a kicking net.
but any giants fan that is even considering letting go of Beckham is ... I don't even know the word.
he is 24 - and already 1 of the most dangerous "weapons" in the league. he conveniently will be do an extension when Eli's contract starts to come off the books ... and even if that wasn't the case, he's a no brainer re-signing.
wanna wait a year? sure. letting him walk / trading for draft picks is a joke. you do not trade a young elite/all-pro/future HOF caliber player entering his prime for the false hope of draft picks. absolutely ridiculous to even consider it.
I don't think there's anything wrong with saying that Beckham is ultra-competitive or passionate. I still believe those things about him because it's almost impossible to get to the level he has if you're neither of those things.
I don't think every athlete has the same level of drive.
I think he's struggled to channel his emotions correctly at times, but he's never left a shred of doubt that he cares immensely about football and being the best player he can possibly be.
The diva stuff is overblown anyway. We've never seen Beckham throw Eli under the bus or be called a bad teammate. We've seen guys like Dez scream at teammates on the sidelines during games, Owens' issues with McNabb were well-documented.. Beckham hit a kicking net.
I don't know how you can definitively say Beckham's drive is exceptional compared to his peers. If his drive were so incredible, for example, wouldn't he be at OTA's? I'd imagine that a player so obsessed with winning a title would not pass up an opportunity to work with his coaches and teammates. Are Will Tye or Zack DeOssie less driven because they attend OTA's but aren't as gifted as Beckham?
I'm just tired of this narrative that Beckham is way more competitive than his teammates, and that is why he acts like an ass.
the Eli window is the most glossed over point. By the team we get to the meat of Beckhams new deal we are likely to have Eli's money come off the books which won't be re-spent on a new QB since franchise QB's don't hit the market. IT will either be a player on a rookie contract or it will be a cheaper veteran.
the Eli window is the most glossed over point. By the team we get to the meat of Beckhams new deal we are likely to have Eli's money come off the books which won't be re-spent on a new QB since franchise QB's don't hit the market. IT will either be a player on a rookie contract or it will be a cheaper veteran.
nope, it'll be "cheap" Webb throwing quick hitting darts out of the shotgun to Odell - letting him do the rest, and reminding us of why he's worth the blank check he should be given by this front office.
he's 24! theres room for improvement ... which is disturbing.
Beckham is driven to be a great WR. I'm talking about competitive, on-field drive.
Attending OTA's have absolutely nothing to do with that. He's not driven to prove to guys like you that he's a team-player, he's driven to be the best WR possible. Which is why he's been training his ass off this entire time and working just has hard as anyone else.
His own teammates will be the first ones to tell you that he works as hard as anyone else. Brandon Marshall said it himself and marveled over how special he thinks Beckham is.
You think every single athlete has the same drive?
but if he has another amazing season and stays healthy, abso-freakin-lutely.
I don't even think OBJ is an ahole like everyone seems to think. I think he's an amazing person that has compassion and cares for people. If you watch anything that he does off the field, he's very generous and caring. He's one of those guys that is just a fiery competitor(I don't care if some dummy doesn't like to refer to him as that) that hasn't learned how to control his emotions, but clearly he's aware enough to realize that and will eventually figure it out.
I look forward to the few idiots disappearing as OBJ plays out his HOF career.
I'd rather listen to the guys that have actually played football with him, personally.. but what do I know?
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His work ethic is unmatched and unquestioned, said Newhouse. He fights for his teammates, I see him getting after it in the weight room. Hes done nothing but show me he is a great teammate and a game-changing playmaker.
OBJ doesn't have that burning desire that few have and how anyone can say he's anything but an amazing teammate. How about the fact that he and Landry would go into the practice bubble at midnight on teh weekends and practice football. How about the fact that he's very close with every one of his WR's that he's played with in college and NFL. He's clearly well liked by his teammates and most of his peers(not the DB's). Sometimes people are so blinded by their own stupidity that they don't see the obvious.
"They broke a Jugs machine," Henry told the Daily News before Beckham and the Giants visited Landrys Dolphins. "They would break into the indoor facility. On Friday nights, when everybody else was going and hanging out, they were there catching footballs.
and you can judge that by how his teammates talk about him and interact with him. He's always close with the WR's on his team. I think he's a perfect player and teammate, except for the one small aspect of controlling his competitiveness and fire, similar to Steve Smith, except he's like 100x better than Smith.
but if he has another amazing season and stays healthy, abso-freakin-lutely.
I don't even think OBJ is an ahole like everyone seems to think. I think he's an amazing person that has compassion and cares for people. If you watch anything that he does off the field, he's very generous and caring. He's one of those guys that is just a fiery competitor(I don't care if some dummy doesn't like to refer to him as that) that hasn't learned how to control his emotions, but clearly he's aware enough to realize that and will eventually figure it out.
I look forward to the few idiots disappearing as OBJ plays out his HOF career.
This isn't just drinking koolaid, it's straight up injecting it intravenously. If a player on the Eagles made it a routine to show up late for fan events and no show charity events he signed on for the way Zbeckham has the last two offseasons, there's no way in hell you'd be claiming that player an an amazing, compassionate person.
And for the record, I don't care if he's an asshole or not. I don't need nice guys on my team.
There's not one teammate on the record saying anything but positive things about Beckham.
You're sitting here claiming he's a shitty, me-first guy who is a bad teammate while the guys who actually play football with him all rave about his work ethic and say otherwise.
I know who I am choosing to believe... and it's definitely not the account of a fan acting like a jilted ex-lover over a football player skipping voluntary OTA's.
There's not one teammate on the record saying anything but positive things about Beckham.
You're sitting here claiming he's a shitty, me-first guy who is a bad teammate while the guys who actually play football with him all rave about his work ethic and say otherwise.
I know who I am choosing to believe... and it's definitely not the account of a fan acting like a jilted ex-lover over a football player skipping voluntary OTA's.
What do you think they're going to say? Nothing good comes out of bad nothing a teammate.
And what about Reese's worried about his maturity and needing to grow up? I guess those don't matter?
We can franchise tag him for a couple of years. All he can do is whine.
The best organizations DO NOT take care of players. Look at the Pats and Seahawks as the best examples. They cut you when you come for the dough. That's what we need to do too if OBJ won't play ball for him. He knows his marketability lies in playing in NY - good luck playing for the Bills or Vikings and see how many instagram hits you get.
I also don't think they're all driven by the same things.
As for the Newhouse quote, he was probably sticking up for a teammate after the millionth question about Beckham doing something stupid.
And we agree on one thing: Beckham isn't driven to be a great team guy.
Do you even believe the "fire" that you post? You have to create an imaginary context to explain away a positive quote from a teammate because you refuse to accept an opinion of Beckham that doesn't match yours.
I think if he was actually a bad teammate, we'd have an account from at least one player about it by now. No one is forcing guys like Newhouse to go above and beyond to describe how hard Beckham works or say that he fights for his teammates.
What Reese said has nothing to do with Beckham being a bad teammate. It's about controlling his emotions on the field. Which I've said many times I think he needs to do a better job of.
There's no evidence anywhere that he's a bad teammate. You're telling me I shouldn't believe players saying otherwise, but I'm supposed to think you're right when you have nothing to go by aside from him skipping voluntary OTA's?
Odell came out of the gate with the best or 2nd best rookie WR season in the SB era. Statistically, it was even better than Randy Moss' rookie campaign. But Moss' deep speed definitely had a "beyond the stats" impact that gives his rookie year a good argument in comparison to Odell's.
His rookie year gets an A++ grade any way you look at it. He follows that up by putting up 96/1450/13 in his soph season and 101/1367/10 this past year. Even by today's standards, those are 2 dominant statistical seasons by a WR.
Yet, a big part of me feels like Odell could've done even more these last 2 years. He's a TD machine, but it feels like there were 5 more "easy" TDs that Odell didn't convert due to not being able to make a "catchable" reception. He's had his bigtime 4th quarter moments too like when he roasted Norman/Finnegan in the "Norman game", but he's had a handful of moments where he came up short at at an important time.
His grade in Year 2/3 is still an A/A+ overall, but it feels like just a B by his standards because he was thisclose to doing so much more. But then I look at the numbers again...
Those are Odell's (A) numbers these past 2 years compared with Antonio Brown (B) and Julio Jones' (C) numbers. Odell trails in Yards and Receptions, but his TD and INT rates are crazy impressive. This is why he has roughly the same passer rating as those 2 guys. For all intents and purposes, Odell/Brown/Julio were basically equal in terms of stats these past 2 years.
But that's before you compare the offenses they played with.The Falcons and Steelers both had far better OLines, both had FAR better running options, and both had better secondary receiving options. I think it's fair to say that Odell received more attention from opposing Defenses than Brown or Julio did due to the lack of talent around him. Ryan and Big Ben have also played better than Eli the last 2 years, one area in particular is the deep ball. Whereas Big Ben and Ryan have been great on long bombs, Eli and Odell have not been on the same page with deep connections. Part of that is because our OL doesn't give Eli enough time to set those bombs up.
Do I think Odell has been better than Julio and Antonio the past 2 years? No, I don't. AB and Julio have both shown up huge in the playoffs. Brown won a playoff game with a great catch and effort, and Julio should've iced a Super Bowl Championship with a ridiculously sick and clutch catch. Odell, on the otherhand, came up tiny in Green Bay.
But Brown and Jones are two HOFers in the middle of their primes whereas Odell is just about to enter his prime. Statistically, young Odell has been right there and arguably more impressive than the 2 consensus top WRs in the league. And Visually, Odell's explosiveness stands out as the most jawdropping skill any of these 3 players have.
I have a lot of issues with Odell's personality. Quite frankly, the man has a lot of "bitch tendencies". He's a brat. His hands are also inconsistent. He also seems to lack some physical strength, he has explosive power but his regular strength seems like it could improve based on the way DBs seem to be able to body him on GL fades. For as many highlight catches as he makes, he doesn't make a ton of powerful in-traffic catches like a Brandon Marshall or DeAndre Hopkins.
But for as many faults as he has, this guy was arguably the best player at his position over the NFL during the first 3 years of his career. I hate the diva attitude and the instagram-era BS, but YOU HAVE TO PAY THIS MAN. Giving Odell the same money as Antonio Brown is totally reasonable in a league where "the next QB up" is always getting more money than the previous Franchise QB who got paid. This isn't like giving Flacco the same money as Aaron Rodgers.
Age 22-24 Odell has been a great football player. But most of these athletes peak at roughly age 27, so it's very possible that age 25-27 Odell is going to be even better in the coming years. He's going to be more refined. He's hopefully going to be more consistent and eliminate the drops issue. He's going to hopefully be more mature and know how to handle the spotlight better. I want Odell in blue for his entire career, or atleast the next 5 years.
but if he has another amazing season and stays healthy, abso-freakin-lutely.
I don't even think OBJ is an ahole like everyone seems to think. I think he's an amazing person that has compassion and cares for people. If you watch anything that he does off the field, he's very generous and caring. He's one of those guys that is just a fiery competitor(I don't care if some dummy doesn't like to refer to him as that) that hasn't learned how to control his emotions, but clearly he's aware enough to realize that and will eventually figure it out.
I look forward to the few idiots disappearing as OBJ plays out his HOF career.
This isn't just drinking koolaid, it's straight up injecting it intravenously. If a player on the Eagles made it a routine to show up late for fan events and no show charity events he signed on for the way Zbeckham has the last two offseasons, there's no way in hell you'd be claiming that player an an amazing, compassionate person.
And for the record, I don't care if he's an asshole or not. I don't need nice guys on my team.
I don't know who you are and you sure as hell don't know me. Don't tell me what I would think. Certain people keep using this eagles reference and it's stupid. First off, I'm not you. Just because you would bash another team doesn't mean I can't be fair when I see other players actions. OBJ is absolutely a very good person and a good teammate and nothing I have seen goes against that. He can be a bit aholish when he plays, but he will cool it down a bit as he matures.
Give me a fucking break. The term fire is used so often as a synonym for stupidity it's incredible.
I guess Eli Manning doesn't give a shit because he doesn't act like a moron after every positive play.
Fire is good. Tom Brady is a fiery competitor, as was Eli's brother. They however knew how to chanel that fire. OBJ hasn't learned that yet. It's immaturity, plain and simple.
I'm not really following your Eli point. Did I say that Eli doesn't care because he doesn't have outbursts? I don't think I did.
You keep making things up to try to make a point and when called on it, it's straw man after straw man. You have nothing. You dug this massive hole and you are stuck in it. You have yet to make 1 solid point when discussing OBJ, not one.
If that's how player competes, fine. If that's not who a player is, that's fine. From your couch or seat, you have no idea which one wants it more or is more competitive or whatever.
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I don't know who you are and you sure as hell don't know me. Don't tell me what I would think. Certain people keep using this eagles reference and it's stupid. First off, I'm not you. Just because you would bash another team doesn't mean I can't be fair when I see other players actions. OBJ is absolutely a very good person and a good teammate and nothing I have seen goes against that. He can be a bit aholish when he plays, but he will cool it down a bit as he matures.
I brought up the Eagles because if a player on their team behaved the way OBJ has there's zero chance you or anyone on this board would be on their knees for them for basically being a saint the way you are.
You're the one going on about how he cares for people and is an amazing person based on... I'm not really sure, since there's a pretty decent trail of him being a fuckboy. (Which, again, doesn't matter to me. Most athletes are assholes even if they try to paint a facade otherwise or even succeed in doing so.)
You don't know me. I don't know Odell, but he comes across as a very good person off the field. His only problem is how he handles himself between the lines when things get tough and he will get better in that aspect.
And there we have it. Faced with plenty of good reasons why the Giants should absolutely retain Beckham (notably Osi's stellar post above), you choose to zero in on the issue of his behavior. It's clear, you don't like the guy and that would be fine if you were even remotely close to be unbiased in your assessment of him and his value to the Giants. But you can't.
Because "fire."
RE: I believe he has self awareness and realizes his weaknesses.
I believe he's immature and I believe most people mature as they get older and more experienced. Some mature earlier than others, some are later.
Respectfully disagree here. He's completely consumed by his own fame and doesn't see anything wrong with it. I don't think he has any idea why the perception matters because he and Cris Carter know more than his position coach and they know what's best for Odell. Bullshit, Cris Carter played pre-CBA, he had months of contact with his team, two a days, padded practices and long long hours. He has no idea what it takes in THIS NFL to win because of the CBA limits on player time. Every single second matters and Odell fails to see why, which means he cares about Odell more than anything else. He's shunning his team on purpose and he thinks its making him better? That is completely lacking in self awareness and magnifying his greatest weakness, which is his own ego.
I'm not going to try and psychoanalyze a guy I've never met.
I'm not going to assign motives to him or read anything into a tweet, or give much credence to anything a would-be surrogate says on his behalf.
I expect him to show up to mandatory mini-camp in shape and ready to work. I expect him to show up in training camp in shape and ready to work. I believe that's what his teammates expect of him, too. Ditto for his coaches.
But you won't rule out him becoming a team cancer. You see, that's just it. There is zero, and I mean ZERO evidence other than media created speculation that there is even such a thing as a "team cancer."
But nice of you to refrain from calling the giants best player an actual hinderance to winning. The same player who has lifted the offense when literally no one else on the team was close to capable.
Some of you out think yourself at every turn. Team cancer? What the fuck does that even mean? How on earth does a good to great player cause a team to die? How???? I wanna know!! Please enlighten me because in the 35 years I've been glued to pro sports in the NYC NJ area i have never seen a player matastasize into a tumor that eats the team away. Even Terrell Owens..... nope.... sorry....wrong! Owens helped his team win.
Like I said the one thing we should fear with big long term contracts is health. Team cancer my ass. Made up media driven horse shit.
I did in fact think Owens was an asshole when he was on SF, Dallas and philly. I also couldn't wait to see him get the fuck out of the NFC east.
I don't care if Beckham is an asshole or is immature or acts like an idiot when he scores a TD. This isn't my high school class. This is my favorite football team. I want wins. I want to beat Dallas in December. Beckham helps the cause. Of course I want Beckham to maximize his potential and longevity. I'd love to see the carry himself like Eli or Jeter but he is who he is. You want to run the guy out of here simply because you don't like his act. Thank Christ you're not the GM.
Some of the most toxic and chaotic and dysfunctional teams ever
Won world titles. Some of the wackiest players ever lifted their teams to great heights.
You know how long a distraction goes? Right up until game day. The second the lights come on and the fans cheer and the curtain goes up every "distraction" from the past week is forgotten. Distractions are a nuisance to the team and players and coaches. Players will get annoyed. Coaches will get annoyed. And the media is there with pen in hand ready to write the latest narrative. Fans eat it up.
If you were a pro athlete and some teammate was involved in a big story. And the media asked you a bunch of questions throughout the week is that reallly going to impact how you perform on Sunday? This shit is childish to even debate.
I think if the Giants offer him a contract that makes him the highest paid receiver in the league they are making a big mistake that will come back to bite them.
RE: The debate isn't about whether he's an asshole
I think if the Giants offer him a contract that makes him the highest paid receiver in the league they are making a big mistake that will come back to bite them.
The last part of that sentence is your bias against Beckham as a person speaking loud and clear. If you simply say "no WR is worth that much money" and leave it as that I'd atleast respect the opinion. But that last part of statement makes it very hard to take it seriously or have a good debate with.
I've said that paying any receiver that much money is absurd. I've also said there are only two or three players in the league I'd pay that much money. I've said that more than once.
I make no secret that I'd be happy not to have to root for Beckham anymore, but even if I liked him I wouldn't pay that much. It's nuts.
RE: Some of the most toxic and chaotic and dysfunctional teams ever
Won world titles. Some of the wackiest players ever lifted their teams to great heights.
You know how long a distraction goes? Right up until game day. The second the lights come on and the fans cheer and the curtain goes up every "distraction" from the past week is forgotten. Distractions are a nuisance to the team and players and coaches. Players will get annoyed. Coaches will get annoyed. And the media is there with pen in hand ready to write the latest narrative. Fans eat it up.
If you were a pro athlete and some teammate was involved in a big story. And the media asked you a bunch of questions throughout the week is that reallly going to impact how you perform on Sunday? This shit is childish to even debate.
Let me offer a few thoughts here. I'm a firm firm believer in results, very much so and it's the reason I'm in the industry I am in and work for who I work for. I want results, period. I don't care if my best guy (and he is) is a huge asshole, he gets shit done and people rave about his, let's call it, on the field performance. He's a knife, he cuts and when I need something cut I use him. In the clubhouse so to speak, he's a huge pain in the ass, HUGE but he respects me and responds to me and does the work when asked. Odell is NOT doing the work right now, that is troubling to me when you have a 24 year old who has been in as much off the field shit as he has.
Now, as far as distractions go, I offer one thing - access. I'm a nobody, a butthead by all accounts and I know one person "in the know" and I get asked constantly by people who know me what I can find out. If I know, I share it's that simple. Now, put yourself in say...Damon Harrison's shoes. He is an NFL vet, a pro bowler and the face of the defense. DO you think he doesn't field hundreds of texts daily for some scoop on Odell? Do you think every player he's played with and against who he's cool with doesn't just say .hey man, what's up with Odell? Because they do. Now multiply that by everyone on the team because every single solitary one fields the same shit daily, I guarantee it. Every rookie whose ex teammates are in awe of him playing Odell, every FA who came here now has friends who knows that he knows..Odell. Every coach, every trainer, every employee will get the same fucking bullshit daily about it. That's not impactful? That's not draining, not annoying, not a distraction? Think about this in day to day real life terms and really THINK...do you think this is a pain in the ass to them? If you don't, you're lying or defending someone aimlessly. Will it matter in the long run? Don't know, I don't, you don't and neither does anyone else. Does it have the potential for risk? Yes, yes it does and that is not a good thing for a team, not a good thing for a team with Super Bowl aspirations not in this day and age of unlimited access and non stop interruptions. He's a problem right now, that may stop but right now to say it's not a big deal is being obtuse and quite frankly not using your god given brain to think critically about an issue. This is not 1986, it's not a few reporters in a paper, it's non stop, all live, all the time, 100% access to everyone all the time and it will take a toll on these players and coaches and organization. Saying otherwise is just apologizing for poor behavior. He's being an ass, you know and I know it and we all wish he wasn't. It's that simple for me. Do you prefer he be here working or be away making a dick of himself at every turn? Answer that honestly and you'll see why people care about this. He should be here, he should be a part of something special and he's not and it sucks, period.
I want him to be here too but let's not act like dozens of other great players have missed OTAs. Players used to miss training camps over money. Money! They all did it. Now Beckham may or may not be missing shit they didn't even report on in the 80s and 90s and you're using that as some sort of reason to indict the guy. I'm sorry I just don't agree all the way like some of you do. Is it a nuisance yes is it something I'd prefer not to see? Yes. But a condemnable offense or something that worries me? No. And why? Because I've seen this shit before. So have you. There is very little or no correlation at all of this to some bad end game.
I just don't care about the drama side of things. This isn't football related.
Funny how no one is talking about the best defensive players on the chiefs missing OTAs.
Whatever I said my piece. OBJ will be fine. If he isn't he isn't. Missing OTAs as possibly part of some contract ploy has been done 1000s of times before. Nyg legends, all of them, held out and at times went scorched earth in hopes of getting paid. Some of these camp holdouts subsequently led to bad seasons. Carl banks held out for money and had a bad year for his standards. Marshall did. Simms held out in 89 and had his worst year.
Short memories, Joey and others. You're my age, you remember these examples I just posted. Obj isn't even holding and you're reading the riot act on here like the guy is torpedoing the season. Cmon already.
Whatever I said my piece. OBJ will be fine. If he isn't he isn't. Missing OTAs as possibly part of some contract ploy has been done 1000s of times before. Nyg legends, all of them, held out and at times went scorched earth in hopes of getting paid. Some of these camp holdouts subsequently led to bad seasons. Carl banks held out for money and had a bad year for his standards. Marshall did. Simms held out in 89 and had his worst year.
Short memories, Joey and others. You're my age, you remember these examples I just posted. Obj isn't even holding and you're reading the riot act on here like the guy is torpedoing the season. Cmon already.
Fair enough, my hope is that it amounts to fuck all and we win a Super Bowl and I look like a schlub (which I usually do), but something about this just rubs me the wrong way and I'm not sure what it is. It's more gut feel than anything tangible, but as you said we've seen it before, we'll see how it goes and root for the best outcome. Peace.
These are voluntary. They didn't even report on this shit back in the 80s and 90s. Now a guy farts in the wrong direction during the month of June and this place goes nuts.
We know way too much. I hate the salary talk and shit like this. The non stop 24 hour media driven scrutiny is tiresome and harmful to actual analysis. And the mere fact that we are talking about obj's cap hit on a contract that is likely to be years away is just sad. Enjoy the guy on the field.
Whatever I said my piece. OBJ will be fine. If he isn't he isn't. Missing OTAs as possibly part of some contract ploy has been done 1000s of times before. Nyg legends, all of them, held out and at times went scorched earth in hopes of getting paid. Some of these camp holdouts subsequently led to bad seasons. Carl banks held out for money and had a bad year for his standards. Marshall did. Simms held out in 89 and had his worst year.
Short memories, Joey and others. You're my age, you remember these examples I just posted. Obj isn't even holding and you're reading the riot act on here like the guy is torpedoing the season. Cmon already.
Fair enough, my hope is that it amounts to fuck all and we win a Super Bowl and I look like a schlub (which I usually do), but something about this just rubs me the wrong way and I'm not sure what it is. It's more gut feel than anything tangible, but as you said we've seen it before, we'll see how it goes and root for the best outcome. Peace.
Dude you're not alone believe me. And like I said of course I want obj to be as perfect as humanly possible. I'd be a lying fool to say otherwise. But I just don't see the point in worrying right now about the OTAs and looming contract. You have to pay him. If he blows up and we eat shit for 2-3 years so be it. You draft guys and pray they turn into obj wack job or not.
My father in law called me yesterday and completely blasted obj saying to dump him lol. And he's more tolerant with players than I am. Obj is a lightning rod. I get it.
Joey, good stuff, there is a lot of shit these players
deal with that we don't see, but that's not OBJ's fault. He can't worry about that shit and that stuff will happen regardless. He is a polarizing figure and everything he does will create a circus. He will do what he has to do to be prepared to dominate and he clearly care about his team and his teammates and winning. That's all I can ask.
You think every player isn't inundated with texts about Eli and the memorabilia thing? There are tons of distractions and a professional won't let it effect their job. Plain and simple.
I am also of the belief that there are cancers in sports. TO was a cancer, he divided locker rooms. OBJ is NOT that guy.
I think if the Giants offer him a contract that makes him the highest paid receiver in the league they are making a big mistake that will come back to bite them.
The Giants have him this year at 1.8 mil. They have him next year for the 5th year option, and then they can franchise him the year after. Barring injury, the Giants will make out like bandits in terms of ROI over the life of his first 6 years in the league.
If the Giants pay him early, it will be at a discount. Otherwise there's no incentive to do a deal this year or next year. If they don't and he continues to produce then he deserves to be paid accordingly -- by the Giants or someone else.
You say let him walk -- would you be cool with seeing him in Philly and playing him twice a year?
and going to crash in a couple years, why would you pay him now? we've got him locked up. and in a couple years, when we have no QB, and we're ditching all the high priced players around him, the team is likely to be going no where, so why pay him then?
but if you do want to sign him, you don't give crazy dollars to average/slightly better than average players like Pugh. stay the course this year, unless OBJ wants to give a hometown discount (which he won't, because the hd is a myth), then use the savings off ditching Pugh to sign him long term. He's cheap this year and next, and he likely isn't giving you a discount to resign. so it makes no sense. why increase your expenses when you can lock him up for two years and then use the tag?
and going to crash in a couple years, why would you pay him now? we've got him locked up. and in a couple years, when we have no QB, and we're ditching all the high priced players around him, the team is likely to be going no where, so why pay him then?
Good attitude! I'm sure all of the younger players are looking forward to sucking in the not too distant future.
and going to crash in a couple years, why would you pay him now? we've got him locked up. and in a couple years, when we have no QB, and we're ditching all the high priced players around him, the team is likely to be going no where, so why pay him then?
but if you do want to sign him, you don't give crazy dollars to average/slightly better than average players like Pugh. stay the course this year, unless OBJ wants to give a hometown discount (which he won't, because the hd is a myth), then use the savings off ditching Pugh to sign him long term. He's cheap this year and next, and he likely isn't giving you a discount to resign. so it makes no sense. why increase your expenses when you can lock him up for two years and then use the tag?
I'm not following. The only aging player close to the end is Eli. I guess you can say Marshall, but he's not a huge part of the team. We have a young OL. We have a DL that are all in their primes and will be here for a long time. Our secondary is very young with Jackrabbit, Apple and Collins. We have Engram, Shepard and Odell who are very young. So what exactly are you talking about? This team is built for now and the future, we just need to replace Eli.
I think if the Giants offer him a contract that makes him the highest paid receiver in the league they are making a big mistake that will come back to bite them.
The Giants have him this year at 1.8 mil. They have him next year for the 5th year option, and then they can franchise him the year after. Barring injury, the Giants will make out like bandits in terms of ROI over the life of his first 6 years in the league.
If the Giants pay him early, it will be at a discount. Otherwise there's no incentive to do a deal this year or next year. If they don't and he continues to produce then he deserves to be paid accordingly -- by the Giants or someone else.
You say let him walk -- would you be cool with seeing him in Philly and playing him twice a year?
Completely. If they want to throw that much money at one player, great.
and going to crash in a couple years, why would you pay him now? we've got him locked up. and in a couple years, when we have no QB, and we're ditching all the high priced players around him, the team is likely to be going no where, so why pay him then?
but if you do want to sign him, you don't give crazy dollars to average/slightly better than average players like Pugh. stay the course this year, unless OBJ wants to give a hometown discount (which he won't, because the hd is a myth), then use the savings off ditching Pugh to sign him long term. He's cheap this year and next, and he likely isn't giving you a discount to resign. so it makes no sense. why increase your expenses when you can lock him up for two years and then use the tag?
I'm so sick of this "win now" BS. Take a look at this roster, outside of Marshall/Eli/DRC.
Jenkins, Apple, Collins, JPP, Snacks, OV, Beckham, Perkins, Shepard, Engram, Pugh, Richburg, etc. ... this team can win a SB and still remain competitive for a very long time.
Dude posts probably the most insightful, well thought-out post on this entire thread, and then follows up hours later with two that are almost completely unintelligible.
Then I would conclude that you won't want to pay anyone big bucks that doesn't play like LT and act like Richie Cunningham off the field. And he has to play a unique position that suits your team building philosophy and even then you'd probably change your option as the wind blows.
If you aren't in the mood to pay a guy like Beckham then you subscribe to some weird team building philosophy or ideology that is all but impossible to sustain or win with. Every single gm alive pays Beckham. Every. Single. One. The guy is a human cheat code. Let him walk only if you're absolutely certain he's damaged goods. Until then, sign him.
Why wouldnt you? Guy is the best player we've drafted in decades.
Next question...
Pay the young man... might as well do it now to keep him in blue. I would even sign Landry and Jeremy Hill when they become fa's just to keep him happy.
Pay the young man... might as well do it now to keep him in blue. I would even sign Landry and Jeremy Hill when they become fa's just to keep him happy.
and if he does, we're talking about 1 of the most lethal offensive players in the history of the sport. you don't have to "like" him, but he is an incredible talent and you do what it takes to keep him in a giants uniform.
and he should be.
he deserves to be the highest paid non-QB in the league, as he is a 1 man wrecking crew capable of scoring as soon as he touches the ball.
ODB Career Highlights - ( New Window )
OBJ has been durable, but if you pay a guy (see Cruz) and he promptly blows out his knee and is done....that hurts your roster. Especially if you paid him before you needed too.
I understand the love for OBJ...he is probably going to have a Hall of Fame career. He make the Giants better right now . . . but maybe paying him 18-20M/year will make the Giants worse in the future?
I understand the love for OBJ...he is probably going to have a Hall of Fame career. He make the Giants better right now . . . but maybe paying him 18-20M/year will make the Giants worse in the future?
Not paying him will definitely make them worse...or somebody else much better.
he deserves to be the highest paid non-QB in the league, as he is a 1 man wrecking crew capable of scoring as soon as he touches the ball. ODB Career Highlights - ( New Window )
How many of those plays happened in games the Giants lost? The biggest plays of the 2007 and 2012 Superbowls happens were made by WR's who were average at best. (Big credit goes to Eli)
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I understand the love for OBJ...he is probably going to have a Hall of Fame career. He make the Giants better right now . . . but maybe paying him 18-20M/year will make the Giants worse in the future?
Not paying him will definitely make them worse...or somebody else much better.
That is purely opinion. I'd venture a guess that dumping 25-35% of available cap into 3-4 players is a recipe for disaster.
The Giants will have 40% of available cap dollars tied up in 4 players next year assuming a salary cap of $170M.
Eli 22.2M
JPP 17.5M
OV 17M
JJ 13M
Almost $70M tied up in 4 players. Lets say OBJ is extended and his hit next year is $14M. Almost 50% of your cap space goes to 5 guys. Just split the remaining $86M between 45 guys (top 51 salaries).
I know you can do things to make room...but at some point you have a really imbalanced roster.
over the cap - ( New Window )
I think it is a great question...because it comes down to where you allocate limited $'s to make your team better. Th Giants can certainly sign him and let the chips fall where they may with the rest of the roster. But you become a winning team because of your whole roster...not just because you have OBJ on your team. OBJ can't block for Eli, or keep the opposing team from scoring.
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In comment 13493818 AnnapolisMike said:
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I understand the love for OBJ...he is probably going to have a Hall of Fame career. He make the Giants better right now . . . but maybe paying him 18-20M/year will make the Giants worse in the future?
Not paying him will definitely make them worse...or somebody else much better.
That is purely opinion. I'd venture a guess that dumping 25-35% of available cap into 3-4 players is a recipe for disaster.
The Giants will have 40% of available cap dollars tied up in 4 players next year assuming a salary cap of $170M.
Eli 22.2M
JPP 17.5M
OV 17M
JJ 13M
Almost $70M tied up in 4 players. Lets say OBJ is extended and his hit next year is $14M. Almost 50% of your cap space goes to 5 guys. Just split the remaining $86M between 45 guys (top 51 salaries).
I know you can do things to make room...but at some point you have a really imbalanced roster.
over the cap - ( New Window )
Eli is no longer a long-term contract though, so that's part of the consideration.
I love the player, but paying megabucks for a declining asset in a salary cap world is foolish. He's not going to be breaking 70 yard slants every other week when he's 28+. The attrition catches up with everyone. Plus, we will likely be in the hunt for a new qb by that time.
Nothing to do with any of the off field stuff or any diva crap that so many get wrapped up in. Purely from a roster standpoint it's way too much money for a declining player. It's paying for past performance. The second half of his career won't be as productive as his first.
That said, I am sure the Giants will pay him.
I love the player, but paying megabucks for a declining asset in a salary cap world is foolish. He's not going to be breaking 70 yard slants every other week when he's 28+. The attrition catches up with everyone. Plus, we will likely be in the hunt for a new qb by that time.
Nothing to do with any of the off field stuff or any diva crap that so many get wrapped up in. Purely from a roster standpoint it's way too much money for a declining player. It's paying for past performance. The second half of his career won't be as productive as his first.
That said, I am sure the Giants will pay him.
Declining asset? In addition, do you know how young Beckham is? If Odell got the same exact contract Brown got a year from now, he'd be the same age Brown is today at the end of the deal. Odell would be 29 at the end of a 4 year deal he gets NEXT year.
Your description is a more accurate representation of the Steelers' predicament than the Giants.
Eli is no longer a long-term contract though, so that's part of the consideration.
3 more years if he plays out his contract.
I'm not saying you don't pay OBJ, but if you do...your making a choice not to put money into the team elsewhere. Remember how we were trying to figure out how to pay Nicks and Cruz. Nicks hit the wall before the Giants had to pay him and Cruz got paid and the Giants got NOTHING out of that deal. Imagine if the Giants had paid both.
I am one that questions putting the money that will be needed to secure OBJ into a WR. I don't think an HOF WR is a necessary ingredient to a teams success. Good line play, a competent QB and solid defensive backs are much more important.
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attached is a reminder of the player we're discussing. sometimes even I forget how special he is. it is a privilege to watch him play the sport - even if you don't necessarily "like" him.
he deserves to be the highest paid non-QB in the league, as he is a 1 man wrecking crew capable of scoring as soon as he touches the ball. ODB Career Highlights - ( New Window )
How many of those plays happened in games the Giants lost? The biggest plays of the 2007 and 2012 Superbowls happens were made by WR's who were average at best. (Big credit goes to Eli)
Your second paragraph is ridiculous.. 2007 without Plaxico we never get to the Superbowl.. If you don't believe me just look at what happened to Giants without Plax in 2008.. Even when a stud WR doesn't get yards he is useful.. without the 2 starting WR we go 3-11 instead of 7-7 in the first 14 games.. in both of those cases you don't have to worry about playing in the SB without your top WRs.. Last year we definitely lose at least 3 more games without OBJ..
I've said this many times before. OBJ, while a generational talent, is not the type of guy you can build a team around.
He is not self aware enough to be a cornerstone player who eats up that high of a chunk of your salary cap. You will get gaudy fantasy football stats in some years but you won't get a guy who really "gets" what it is to be a professional football player in 2017. The brand of OBJ and the football player are two separate things, and I don't think the football side of it is the more important of the two to him.
So for OBJ the way the Giants need to play this is simple. The same way that they handled JPP. The money controls the attitude. So OBJ- you want big $$$? Great. Play out your rookie deal and earn it like JPP did. He might even need to play on the franchise tag for a year to prove he can be an Antonio Brown type player, both ON and OFF the field.
Antonio Brown has the self awareness to either a) Not vacation during a week leading up to a playoff game or b) Not be dumb enough to put yourself in a situation for it to be plastered all over social media. What it does is create distractions for the player and the team.
Basically....you want to get paid like Antonio Brown? Act like it.......produce like him.
I've said this many times before. OBJ, while a generational talent, is not the type of guy you can build a team around.
He is not self aware enough to be a cornerstone player who eats up that high of a chunk of your salary cap. You will get gaudy fantasy football stats in some years but you won't get a guy who really "gets" what it is to be a professional football player in 2017. The brand of OBJ and the football player are two separate things, and I don't think the football side of it is the more important of the two to him.
So for OBJ the way the Giants need to play this is simple. The same way that they handled JPP. The money controls the attitude. So OBJ- you want big $$$? Great. Play out your rookie deal and earn it like JPP did. He might even need to play on the franchise tag for a year to prove he can be an Antonio Brown type player, both ON and OFF the field.
Antonio Brown has the self awareness to either a) Not vacation during a week leading up to a playoff game or b) Not be dumb enough to put yourself in a situation for it to be plastered all over social media. What it does is create distractions for the player and the team.
Basically....you want to get paid like Antonio Brown? Act like it.......produce like him.
Cause Antonio Brown has never caused a distraction from social media...
I've said this many times before. OBJ, while a generational talent, is not the type of guy you can build a team around.
He is not self aware enough to be a cornerstone player who eats up that high of a chunk of your salary cap. You will get gaudy fantasy football stats in some years but you won't get a guy who really "gets" what it is to be a professional football player in 2017. The brand of OBJ and the football player are two separate things, and I don't think the football side of it is the more important of the two to him.
So for OBJ the way the Giants need to play this is simple. The same way that they handled JPP. The money controls the attitude. So OBJ- you want big $$$? Great. Play out your rookie deal and earn it like JPP did. He might even need to play on the franchise tag for a year to prove he can be an Antonio Brown type player, both ON and OFF the field.
Antonio Brown has the self awareness to either a) Not vacation during a week leading up to a playoff game or b) Not be dumb enough to put yourself in a situation for it to be plastered all over social media. What it does is create distractions for the player and the team.
Basically....you want to get paid like Antonio Brown? Act like it.......produce like him.
Ummm... what?????????????? Are you somehow under the impression that AB hasn't created "distractions" for his team through his use of social media? Heck, the day before the Steelers-Giants game last year, they were BOTH on social media because they were hanging out together. You're just uninformed on that topic.
The problem with comparing JPP to Odell is Odell has been FAR more consistent and productive through his first 3 seasons than JPP was. He's already "earned it".
I've said this many times before. OBJ, while a generational talent, is not the type of guy you can build a team around.
He is not self aware enough to be a cornerstone player who eats up that high of a chunk of your salary cap. You will get gaudy fantasy football stats in some years but you won't get a guy who really "gets" what it is to be a professional football player in 2017. The brand of OBJ and the football player are two separate things, and I don't think the football side of it is the more important of the two to him.
So for OBJ the way the Giants need to play this is simple. The same way that they handled JPP. The money controls the attitude. So OBJ- you want big $$$? Great. Play out your rookie deal and earn it like JPP did. He might even need to play on the franchise tag for a year to prove he can be an Antonio Brown type player, both ON and OFF the field.
Antonio Brown has the self awareness to either a) Not vacation during a week leading up to a playoff game or b) Not be dumb enough to put yourself in a situation for it to be plastered all over social media. What it does is create distractions for the player and the team.
Basically....you want to get paid like Antonio Brown? Act like it.......produce like him.
His numbers compared to Browns first three full seasons are comparable, and Brown rode the pine for 3 years learning.
Plastered all over social media like this right?
http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/news/antonio-brown-facebook-live-video-steelers-postgame-locker-room-tomlin-roethlisberger-afc-championship-patriots/eweq8xhga8e31irm17fbkm4z8
Giants have to keep him with a 2nd deal. If he was in the open market he would get more than Brown. At this point, they should try and save a little and give him a big guaranteed amount ASAP. He's a great player and very young. Get a discount now by give my the guaranteed cash.
I've said this many times before. OBJ, while a generational talent, is not the type of guy you can build a team around.
He is not self aware enough to be a cornerstone player who eats up that high of a chunk of your salary cap. You will get gaudy fantasy football stats in some years but you won't get a guy who really "gets" what it is to be a professional football player in 2017. The brand of OBJ and the football player are two separate things, and I don't think the football side of it is the more important of the two to him.
So for OBJ the way the Giants need to play this is simple. The same way that they handled JPP. The money controls the attitude. So OBJ- you want big $$$? Great. Play out your rookie deal and earn it like JPP did. He might even need to play on the franchise tag for a year to prove he can be an Antonio Brown type player, both ON and OFF the field.
Antonio Brown has the self awareness to either a) Not vacation during a week leading up to a playoff game or b) Not be dumb enough to put yourself in a situation for it to be plastered all over social media. What it does is create distractions for the player and the team.
Basically....you want to get paid like Antonio Brown? Act like it.......produce like him.
You lost me with that last sentence.
Compare Beckham's first 3 years to Brown's... one of the two was clearly better. Hint: it's not Brown.
And since when is Antonio Brown a model citizen? He was just in hot water last year for filming his coach and what went on in their locker room and posting it online.
If Beckham did that, people would have crucified him.
Put much better than I could.
Also- remember the absolute no-show in the playoffs. That was a brutal game.
For the record I'm not saying that we shouldn't pay OBJ. He is an all time great talent who has done things on the field that I have NEVER seen before.
What I am saying is that he needs to mature, act more like a professional, and produce in the biggest of games before I shell out a record contract. If he puts up a big year and all I hear about him is the great numbers he puts up, then I open the checkbook. It's up to him. If he wants to be a celebrity he can make tons of $$ hosting parties with Drake in Vegas every weekend. What he can't have in my opinion is both. Learn some discretion and you take the bullseye off of your back.
The good news? He was more than happy to sign his rookie contract so he either plays or doesn't get paid. The team controls the cards on this one.
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when he has an 8 figure guarantee?
Put much better than I could.
Also- remember the absolute no-show in the playoffs. That was a brutal game.
For the record I'm not saying that we shouldn't pay OBJ. He is an all time great talent who has done things on the field that I have NEVER seen before.
What I am saying is that he needs to mature, act more like a professional, and produce in the biggest of games before I shell out a record contract. If he puts up a big year and all I hear about him is the great numbers he puts up, then I open the checkbook. It's up to him. If he wants to be a celebrity he can make tons of $$ hosting parties with Drake in Vegas every weekend. What he can't have in my opinion is both. Learn some discretion and you take the bullseye off of your back.
The good news? He was more than happy to sign his rookie contract so he either plays or doesn't get paid. The team controls the cards on this one.
Simply put, he just has to grow up. It's a tough decison for the Giants. I'm glad I'm not the GM, I just play one here :-). They could look bad either way. Lock up him early before they've won anything and he continues to act like an idiot , they don't win, and then a young, unestablished QB comes in who he can intimidate, then what happens?
But if they let him go and it causes him to straighten out, grow up and he goes on to become a real winner they will kick themselves forever.
With OBJ we had a terrible O last year. The prior 2 years we had losing seasons as well. I am not saying it's his fault in any way. But is WR the most important position on the field? His maturity level doesn't warrant a long term deal at this point. I think the Giants should wait it out and see what happens. Make a decision in 2 years to see if we have a QB in place to replace Eli and make a decision then. If he holds out then thats on him, with the Franchise tag he is getting his money just not the long term commitment.
Fans need to check their perspective, if you were willing to pay JPP, pay Pugh, pay a broken down left tackle, then you sure as hell should want to pay your elite weapon on offense.
Just like I support a player's right to do everything in their power to get the best deal for themselves they can, I support the team I root for doing what's in its best interest and giving out long term deals with historic for the position guaranteed cash before it has to isn't that.
He can be unhappy about his current deal, but oh well. If he stays healthy, he'll get his in a year or two when it's time for it. He can thank his union for the CBA nuking rookie deals to the extent they were.
Just like I support a player's right to do everything in their power to get the best deal for themselves they can, I support the team I root for doing what's in its best interest and giving out long term deals with historic for the position guaranteed cash before it has to isn't that.
He can be unhappy about his current deal, but oh well. If he stays healthy, he'll get his in a year or two when it's time for it. He can thank his union for the CBA nuking rookie deals to the extent they were.
If he does stay healthy and continue on this pace, he'll be even more expensive than it would be if you did it now. This isn't a one-sided situation. There are things to consider on both sides.
It's a different landscape now. That was pre-salary cap. No way the 49ers could have kept that team together in todays NFL.
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is the second coming of Jerry Rice who had a long and fruitful career. You pay him top dollar and keep him in blue.
It's a different landscape now. That was pre-salary cap. No way the 49ers could have kept that team together in todays NFL.
I don't disagree with that. You can't keep everyone, but it seems obvious to me that he's one of your core players going forward. There are not many players on this roster I can see still being here when the Eli era is done.
This is a no-fucking-brainer. You've got a guy who is a top 5 weapon in the NFL, who is young and clean on lingering injuries. If you're not going to pay OBJ, get out of the business of running a football team.
When Odell turned in, by far, the best 3 years to start a receiver's career?
All else being equal, Beckham would probably get more; but there are too many differences - most notably, how far he is from free agency. Julio Jones and A.J. Green are probably better comps, although I think both deals were signed two years ago, so the numbers have to be adjusted upward - if only for a higher cap.
Coming back to the basic question of whether to pay Beckham top dollar, it depends on how long you make him wait for it. A new contract now would have to reflect a discount for the transfer of 2017-2018 injury risk from the player to the team. How important is that factor? Ask Hakeem Nicks and Steve Smith - or, on the other side of the coin, Victor Cruz.
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There is no reason to give him anything right now.
Just like I support a player's right to do everything in their power to get the best deal for themselves they can, I support the team I root for doing what's in its best interest and giving out long term deals with historic for the position guaranteed cash before it has to isn't that.
He can be unhappy about his current deal, but oh well. If he stays healthy, he'll get his in a year or two when it's time for it. He can thank his union for the CBA nuking rookie deals to the extent they were.
If he does stay healthy and continue on this pace, he'll be even more expensive than it would be if you did it now. This isn't a one-sided situation. There are things to consider on both sides.
What player have the Giants given a deal to two years before their current contract was up to? How many players in general, across the league, get the last two years of their rookie deals torn up these days?
The Giants also have the franchise tag available to them, which gives them control over his rights until 2021 if they want to use it.
Fear of contract escalation is small potatoes, given the type of guaranteed money he's going to be after.
If Odell gets hurt early in his contract, we rebuild. Eli goes, and we bottom out a bit. Such is the risk you run. It is better than planning for mediocrity.
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When did this place turn into a Redskins board?
When Odell turned in, by far, the best 3 years to start a receiver's career?
OK...if he keeps this level up for another 10 years then we can start talking about a comparison to Jerry Rice. Until then they aren't in the same universe. Rice put up 9 or 10 seasons that are the statistical equal or better than anything Beckham's done to this point, and in an era that was much less pass happy than today. Let's just be happy with Beckham being one of the top 3 WRs currently in the NFL. Jerry Rice is a decade away at least.
And I'll make the same point here that I made yesterday in a different thread. Between 2012-2014 Dez Bryant put together three years that equaled Beckham's three years thus far...and no one around here was calling Dez Bryant the next Jerry Rice.
And no one is calling him that now, that's for damn sure. There is no rule stating that Beckham's (or anyone else's) career trajectory has to continue along a consistent positive trajectory. If there were such a rule we'd still be watching Eli throw to Steve Smith, Hakeem Nicks, Mario Manningham, and Victor Cruz.
What are we disciplining him for exactly? Dude needs to grow up, but it sounds like you just want to punish him to prove a point. These are people. Not dogs.
Secondly, if we pay him an 8 figure salary, what do you think happens to those game checks? You can suspend him if he does something that warrants it, missing those larger checks still hurts you in the pockets. This place is absurd. I can't wait to get a deal done to see the hysterics and nasty comments come out.
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when he has an 8 figure guarantee?
What are we disciplining him for exactly? Dude needs to grow up, but it sounds like you just want to punish him to prove a point. These are people. Not dogs.
Secondly, if we pay him an 8 figure salary, what do you think happens to those game checks? You can suspend him if he does something that warrants it, missing those larger checks still hurts you in the pockets. This place is absurd. I can't wait to get a deal done to see the hysterics and nasty comments come out.
1. That time he lost his mind and started spearing Josh Norman and fighting every down.
2. That time as a rookie he incited a fracas with the Rams.
3. Shouting at fans in the stand at Vikings Stadium.
4. Same game- contacting an official when he was begging for a call and getting a 15 yard penalty, then again spearing a player (Xaview Rhodes).
Those are just off the top of my head.
Coming back to the basic question of whether to pay Beckham top dollar, it depends on how long you make him wait for it. A new contract now would have to reflect a discount for the transfer of 2017-2018 injury risk from the player to the team. How important is that factor? Ask Hakeem Nicks and Steve Smith - or, on the other side of the coin, Victor Cruz.
Good post.
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In comment 13493924 Victor in CT said:
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when he has an 8 figure guarantee?
What are we disciplining him for exactly? Dude needs to grow up, but it sounds like you just want to punish him to prove a point. These are people. Not dogs.
Secondly, if we pay him an 8 figure salary, what do you think happens to those game checks? You can suspend him if he does something that warrants it, missing those larger checks still hurts you in the pockets. This place is absurd. I can't wait to get a deal done to see the hysterics and nasty comments come out.
1. That time he lost his mind and started spearing Josh Norman and fighting every down.
2. That time as a rookie he incited a fracas with the Rams.
3. Shouting at fans in the stand at Vikings Stadium.
4. Same game- contacting an official when he was begging for a call and getting a 15 yard penalty, then again spearing a player (Xaview Rhodes).
Those are just off the top of my head.
1) He served a suspension and fine for the Norman thing.
2) Rams were trying to play dirty, that fracas started because he bounced back up, and Damontre Moore did Damontre Moore things
3) I watched that game at a local bar, so I probably missed that occurrence.
4) I specifically recall him getting hit when he was already out of bounds, begging for the call, and accidentally bumped the ref. Ensuing play he got a taunting penalty.
I'm not saying he's above criticism, but we kind of pick things apart to the point of not appreciating a special talent for what it is. I don't know what the obsession is to punish OBJ, seems like many incidents started because officials were looking the other way on obvious dirty plays. He needs to grow up, but he's also learning with a target on his back, which is part of the territory for superstar players. He just has to prove some of those things in the past don't get in his head anymore, and I think he's at least taking the measures to do that.
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In comment 13494020 Devon said:
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There is no reason to give him anything right now.
Just like I support a player's right to do everything in their power to get the best deal for themselves they can, I support the team I root for doing what's in its best interest and giving out long term deals with historic for the position guaranteed cash before it has to isn't that.
He can be unhappy about his current deal, but oh well. If he stays healthy, he'll get his in a year or two when it's time for it. He can thank his union for the CBA nuking rookie deals to the extent they were.
If he does stay healthy and continue on this pace, he'll be even more expensive than it would be if you did it now. This isn't a one-sided situation. There are things to consider on both sides.
What player have the Giants given a deal to two years before their current contract was up to? How many players in general, across the league, get the last two years of their rookie deals torn up these days?
Not many. Just the great ones. Which applies here. Some examples would include JJ Watt and, as mentioned, Brown.
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attached is a reminder of the player we're discussing. sometimes even I forget how special he is. it is a privilege to watch him play the sport - even if you don't necessarily "like" him.
he deserves to be the highest paid non-QB in the league, as he is a 1 man wrecking crew capable of scoring as soon as he touches the ball. ODB Career Highlights - ( New Window )
How many of those plays happened in games the Giants lost? The biggest plays of the 2007 and 2012 Superbowls happens were made by WR's who were average at best. (Big credit goes to Eli)
This offense would've been the worst in football without Odell . Plaxico and Steve Smith weren't mediocre in 07. Nicks Manningham Cruz was an excelent WR trio.
Great points all around.
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In comment 13494048 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 13494020 Devon said:
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There is no reason to give him anything right now.
Just like I support a player's right to do everything in their power to get the best deal for themselves they can, I support the team I root for doing what's in its best interest and giving out long term deals with historic for the position guaranteed cash before it has to isn't that.
He can be unhappy about his current deal, but oh well. If he stays healthy, he'll get his in a year or two when it's time for it. He can thank his union for the CBA nuking rookie deals to the extent they were.
If he does stay healthy and continue on this pace, he'll be even more expensive than it would be if you did it now. This isn't a one-sided situation. There are things to consider on both sides.
What player have the Giants given a deal to two years before their current contract was up to? How many players in general, across the league, get the last two years of their rookie deals torn up these days?
Not many. Just the great ones. Which applies here. Some examples would include JJ Watt and, as mentioned, Brown.
Neither of which were Giants and Brown only had one year torn up, not two. Watt also now is currently dealing with major injury problems and Houston still owes him a ton money going forward.
Why? His stock will never be higher and the Giants will land a top #1 pick to go along with their other #1 pick.
Why are we going to pay him a HUGE contract, the highest paid WR in the game when the person throwing to him is either an un-proven QB ( who very possibly won't come close to Eli's production) or a string of moderate QB's that could take the length of his contract to eventually be supplemented by their next franchise QB.
There are too many quality players on D that will soon want to get paid huge money ( Collins for sure) and our O line is still shit.
Keep in mind that Jones and Brown have never won a SB and Pittsburgh has one of the top RB's in Bell and BR to boot.
I would rather trade him and recover a premium draft pic to help build both lines while eventually replacing him with a WR that will never duplicate his potential/production but will do his job well enough in combination with the much, much improved help in the trenches.
OBJ will not win a SB with this team given the state of those around him. Way to many upgrades needed.
Why? His stock will never be higher and the Giants will land a top #1 pick to go along with their other #1 pick.
Why are we going to pay him a HUGE contract, the highest paid WR in the game when the person throwing to him is either an un-proven QB ( who very possibly won't come close to Eli's production) or a string of moderate QB's that could take the length of his contract to eventually be supplemented by their next franchise QB.
There are too many quality players on D that will soon want to get paid huge money ( Collins for sure) and our O line is still shit.
Keep in mind that Jones and Brown have never won a SB and Pittsburgh has one of the top RB's in Bell and BR to boot.
I would rather trade him and recover a premium draft pic to help build both lines while eventually replacing him with a WR that will never duplicate his potential/production but will do his job well enough in combination with the much, much improved help in the trenches.
OBJ will not win a SB with this team given the state of those around him. Way to many upgrades needed.
Wait... what?
OBJ will not win a SB with this team given the state of those around him. Way to many upgrades needed.
How many NFL teams have better rosters than NYG right now? I don't think anyone could honestly name 5.
The Giants have one of the most balanced rosters in the NFL right now. Very few holes. You want to point to the OL? Fine.. every team has a weakness. You can't find me one NFL team without one.
Secondly...
Keep in mind that Jones and Brown have never won a SB and Pittsburgh has one of the top RB's in Bell and BR to boot.
This is a bit disingenuous as A) Jones JUST played in, and should have won one this past February if not for mind-bogglingly bad play-calling and a borderline miracle catch by Edelman.
and B) Brown played in one his rookie year - PIT lost by one score to a red hot Aaron Rodgers.
So, your point there pretty much rings hollow as both Jones and Brown have been part of championship caliber teams.
If you want to point out that Brown was a rookie and was making rookie money in 2010, okay. That was not the case for Jones last year and ATL never even gets to the SB without him. Full stop.
The first question I asked was about the Giants, then made a general ask about around the league.
You replied with no Giants (because they largely don't operate this way, with anyone -- each time even Eli got his much "safer" QB deals, it was with one year left) and two players, one of which got the typical for the league one year left treatment and wasn't applicable anyway and another that started to get hit with major injuries right about when his first deal would have been up.
I get that fans are attached to a great talent, but it's simply not common NFL business to rip up two years on rookie deals. It very, very rarely is a good idea, given the way things can change in an instant in this league.
Terrell Owens nearly won the Eagles a SB and the Cowboys were at their most recent best with him catching passes from Romo.
If you need players to be likeable to be on your team, good guys, you won't be able to build a 53 man roster or even starting lineup, never mind field a decently competitive squad.
Complaints that you dont want a diva star WR? Can I suggest you just follow another sport?
I'd love to go back to late 2014 and read the opinions on Beckham from that point in time on this board.
I bet you couldn't find one negative comment on the guy from that time period. 99% of this board and almost every single Giant fan was waxing poetic about how exciting and how incredible a talent he was.
It's amazing how many people have completely changed their tune on him, especially when you consider how petty the reasons are. And his play has not declined one bit.
If I said in December of 2014 or January of 2015 that Odell Beckham would continue to play at the level he displayed as a rookie and that a large contingent of the Giants fan base would want to get rid of him by 2017 without him ever having been in any sort of legal trouble, no one would have ever believed it.
But, here we are....
I think the team is pretty good, but it's still awfully thin on both lines.
No, I'm not saying NYG are the best team in the league.
But, as of now? Roster-wise? How many teams have a better WR trio than Beckham/Marshall/Shepard? How many have a better trio of corners than Jenkins/DRC/Apple? How many have a better safety than Collins? A better pair of DE's than Vernon/JPP? A better DT than Harrison?
Sure, our OL has question marks. We don't have unlimited depth everywhere. Does anyone?
Has he had a suicide attempt, or if you believe him and his media team, a "prescription medication accident"?
Has he earned the ire of the vast majority of his teammates?
Has he had public workout press conferences in his driveway?
Has he feuded with his coaches and QB?
Owens wasn't just a "diva WR", he was arguably mentally unstable. Drawing a line between Owens and Beckham is just lazy hyperbole. Beckham is a generational talent who is on pace to do things that have never been done, and his behavior hasn't even approached that of an Owens, a Randy Moss, or a Chad Johnson. People need to get real and find some perspective on what they're complaining about.
It's a passing league, wake up people.
Doing a power ranking of rosters is the kind of thing we used to destroy the Redskins fans for.
We've destroyed Redskins fans for claiming they had championship caliber rosters when they clearly did not.
I'll ask again...
Give me a list of teams you think have better talent foundations than NYG right now.
Give me a list of teams without a glaring weakness somewhere.
I'll wait.
Richburg played injured all season and was a shell of himself. Pugh missed 4-5 games, and Rashad Jennings may have been one of the worst starting RB's in football. The guy had holes to run through and ran right into someone's back instead.
The run game picked up when Perkins started getting more carries.
This is mostly the same line that Eli had a career year under in 2015. Eli needs to be better than he was in 2016.
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The Giants haven't had a great player to do this for. So I'm not sure that taking the precedent that they haven't done it to this point means much. We are not talking about a typical player who had one big year. The best player the Giants have had to worry about paying was Cruz, and he wasn't a kid with a hall of fame pace three year run of all-pro level production. The standard doesn't apply. Even JPP before the fireworks wasn't this type of player.
The first question I asked was about the Giants, then made a general ask about around the league.
You replied with no Giants (because they largely don't operate this way, with anyone -- each time even Eli got his much "safer" QB deals, it was with one year left) and two players, one of which got the typical for the league one year left treatment and wasn't applicable anyway and another that started to get hit with major injuries right about when his first deal would have been up.
I get that fans are attached to a great talent, but it's simply not common NFL business to rip up two years on rookie deals. It very, very rarely is a good idea, given the way things can change in an instant in this league.
But, again, the last time the Giants were in something close to this situation, it was Strahan. And even then it doesn't really fit the profile. I wouldn't use Eli as an example, since Eli Manning's first three years don't hold a candle to what we're seeing Beckham do. There were legitimate questions about Eli Manning's future as a starting player right up until like week 8 of year 3.
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In comment 13494184 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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The Giants haven't had a great player to do this for. So I'm not sure that taking the precedent that they haven't done it to this point means much. We are not talking about a typical player who had one big year. The best player the Giants have had to worry about paying was Cruz, and he wasn't a kid with a hall of fame pace three year run of all-pro level production. The standard doesn't apply. Even JPP before the fireworks wasn't this type of player.
The first question I asked was about the Giants, then made a general ask about around the league.
You replied with no Giants (because they largely don't operate this way, with anyone -- each time even Eli got his much "safer" QB deals, it was with one year left) and two players, one of which got the typical for the league one year left treatment and wasn't applicable anyway and another that started to get hit with major injuries right about when his first deal would have been up.
I get that fans are attached to a great talent, but it's simply not common NFL business to rip up two years on rookie deals. It very, very rarely is a good idea, given the way things can change in an instant in this league.
But, again, the last time the Giants were in something close to this situation, it was Strahan. And even then it doesn't really fit the profile. I wouldn't use Eli as an example, since Eli Manning's first three years don't hold a candle to what we're seeing Beckham do. There were legitimate questions about Eli Manning's future as a starting player right up until like week 8 of year 3.
I used Manning as a reference because there's generally a lower risk of injury for a QB. If it makes you feel better look outside the team and at how Luck didn't get get extended until he had one year left or Cam didn't. Beckham isn't more valuable to the Giants than they are or were to their teams and even with the hits they take, there's less likelihood of them being taken out or sent into permanent decline by injury than a WR.
We've destroyed Redskins fans for claiming they had championship caliber rosters when they clearly did not.
I'll ask again...
Give me a list of teams you think have better talent foundations than NYG right now.
Give me a list of teams without a glaring weakness somewhere.
I'll wait.
Keep waiting. Power rankings don't interest me.
Cam and Luck were under the current CBA and rookie slotting, so there was no practical reason to touch their deals til one year out -- almost like how there's not much reason to rip Beckham's up now, two years before it's up, with years of franchising if it comes to that, other than fans claiming "he deserves it".
One of the very rare examples to point to that compares is Watt's deal and, when you look at the shape his body may be in, I'd pump the brakes before declaring that as a move that worked out just yet.
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No it's not.
We've destroyed Redskins fans for claiming they had championship caliber rosters when they clearly did not.
I'll ask again...
Give me a list of teams you think have better talent foundations than NYG right now.
Give me a list of teams without a glaring weakness somewhere.
I'll wait.
Keep waiting. Power rankings don't interest me.
I'm not asking you for power rankings.
I'm asking you which teams don't have flaws or which teams collectively have a better talent pool.
If you think I'm being Redskins fan-esque by thinking NYG has a better roster in place right now than many other teams in the league, it should be easy to tell me I'm wrong and point to teams that are positioned better
Again, I am not claiming NYG have the best roster in football. I am not claiming that they the best team in the NFC.
What I am saying is that it's ridiculous for a poster to claim that we should trade Beckham because there are "too many holes" on this team right now and we're not a contender.
If someone can definitively say that, I'd like to know which teams don't have as many holes as we do. I think it's fair to ask.
Decided to do some digging and find prior examples of top-level players holding out and what the result was.
Emmitt Smith, drafted 1991, held out for the start of his fourth year, including all of training camp and 2 regular season games before Jerry caved in and made him the highest paid runningback in the NFL.
Eric Dickerson, one of the greatest players of all time, held out after two years. Of course in thatera the franchise just laughed at him. But it resulted in him eventually getting traded.
Hines Ward held out in '05 after 4 years, especially relevant as it's the Steelers. Team played hardball after 4 great seasons, Ward held out. Other players went public in support of ward, and he got his deal just before week 1.
Same franchise that paid Brown. Also the same franchise that shared the same conservative tendencies toward valuing players as the Giants.
One could certainly argue that paying non-QB position players a lot of money is too big of a risk, but that's the sport we're watching. It's the most violent team sport in the world. We know the average career length is 3-4 years. If you're trying to avoid risk, you wouldn't sign any player to a long term deal. Risk comes with the territory.
What it comes down to more than managing risk, is that ultimately, teams and fans don't really have an interest in paying ANY player. Even Jerry Rice had to hold out to be fairly paid for his value.
Why? His stock will never be higher and the Giants will land a top #1 pick to go along with their other #1 pick.
Why are we going to pay him a HUGE contract, the highest paid WR in the game when the person throwing to him is either an un-proven QB ( who very possibly won't come close to Eli's production) or a string of moderate QB's that could take the length of his contract to eventually be supplemented by their next franchise QB.
There are too many quality players on D that will soon want to get paid huge money ( Collins for sure) and our O line is still shit.
Keep in mind that Jones and Brown have never won a SB and Pittsburgh has one of the top RB's in Bell and BR to boot.
I would rather trade him and recover a premium draft pic to help build both lines while eventually replacing him with a WR that will never duplicate his potential/production but will do his job well enough in combination with the much, much improved help in the trenches.
OBJ will not win a SB with this team given the state of those around him. Way to many upgrades needed.
yes. 1 of the best players in football, entering his prime, should be traded for the false hope of a draft pick. Brilliant.
Build both lines? The Giants currently have 3/4 of their DL comprised of some of the best players at their respective positions and just landed Hankins 2.0 in the draft. Most teams would kill for this DL.
OL? Great. Let's trade someone who can score from anywhere for a quality tackle prospect who might be good... then we have an old Marshall, Shepard, and nothing ... but at least Eli's heir apparent will have time to realize no ones open.
Decided to do some digging and find prior examples of top-level players holding out and what the result was.
Emmitt Smith, drafted 1991, held out for the start of his fourth year, including all of training camp and 2 regular season games before Jerry caved in and made him the highest paid runningback in the NFL.
Eric Dickerson, one of the greatest players of all time, held out after two years. Of course in thatera the franchise just laughed at him. But it resulted in him eventually getting traded.
Hines Ward held out in '05 after 4 years, especially relevant as it's the Steelers. Team played hardball after 4 great seasons, Ward held out. Other players went public in support of ward, and he got his deal just before week 1.
Same franchise that paid Brown. Also the same franchise that shared the same conservative tendencies toward valuing players as the Giants.
One could certainly argue that paying non-QB position players a lot of money is too big of a risk, but that's the sport we're watching. It's the most violent team sport in the world. We know the average career length is 3-4 years. If you're trying to avoid risk, you wouldn't sign any player to a long term deal. Risk comes with the territory.
What it comes down to more than managing risk, is that ultimately, teams and fans don't really have an interest in paying ANY player. Even Jerry Rice had to hold out to be fairly paid for his value.
Beckham has over 8M guaranteed left over these next two, thanks to them picking up his fifth year option. His situation is what it is because of the current CBA his union agreed to and where he was drafted/positional averages.
I've never had a problem with players doing what they can to get the best deals for themselves or with a team paying a great player big money when the time comes to either. I root for the unform at the end of the day though and, no matter how much some cry "he deserves it", a team locking in to paying anyone monster money before they have to rarely is wise and the way teams largely do their business, league wide, backs it up.
This game is about matchups and impact players -- you don't get rid of guys like Beckham.
Meet me today at the @verizon store in #BryantPark! The first 100 customers will get a photo with me @ 5-6:30pm! #BetterMatters
That's some groundbreaking analysis. What do you have besides platitudes here?
Too ambiguous. Get off the fence and take a position...
People probably said Randy Moss would never win anything, either.. he was a helmet catch away from being on a team that completed a perfect season.
Terrell Owens was part of the only Eagles team that has played in a Super Bowl since 1980.
The get-off-my-lawners said Beckham was a losing player before last year, too. Then the Giants won 11 games.. a few of them directly on his back. Of course, the playoff game was all his fault, though (nary a peep about the defense that allowed 38 points.. including a backbreaking Hail Mary to end the first half)
But hey, why not double and triple down on the bullshit here. It's fun!
This season just needs to arrive, and quick
Hell, I'll settle for camp. So that #13 will be there and everyone will stop having a coronary over his absence.
Cool.
There's plenty of evidence to suggest that there is no such thing as a player distraction. The media made it up years ago. Then double and tripled down on it and literally forumulated their own locker room and team narrative. It's become a paradigm. A ever evolving dynamic of attention that is rooted in 100% bullshit. It's speculative at best.
The only proven negative resulting from Beckham's "antics" or "problems" have been the 4-5 personal foul penalties called on him over the three years. I'd venture that the average wr probably has 1-2 called on him over that time. everything else is just noise. Should we want Beckham to be perfect on and off the field? Yes. That doesn't mean he has to be the coolest of cool or the jeter of the NFL. Odds are his health will be the biggest factor in determining how good the long term contract looks when all is said and done.
Best WR in Giants history.
Giants can control OBJ for only $28M over the next 3 years with current contract plus one tag year. While I am not suggesting that is prudent, if the OBJ camp can't wait that long then maybe he will accept an under-market deal now to get the money flowing.
At market, this guy could command as high as $19M/year. So maybe at an under-market 5 year deal gives him say $15M/year with 50% of it guaranteed?
Abhorrently poor logic, but it is what it is. What confuses me is that at least two of the people vocal about getting what we can for Beckham and letting him become somebody else's headache were pretty adamant that getting rid of Will Hill was a terrible idea.
Not sure how subtracting the best skill player I've seen on this team is a good idea, but people keep trying to educate me on why.
Giants can control OBJ for only $28M over the next 3 years with current contract plus one tag year. While I am not suggesting that is prudent, if the OBJ camp can't wait that long then maybe he will accept an under-market deal now to get the money flowing.
At market, this guy could command as high as $19M/year. So maybe at an under-market 5 year deal gives him say $15M/year with 50% of it guaranteed?
I alluded to this scenario in another OBJ thread. If he wants to set a new bar in WR pay, then he has to shoulder the injury risk until he is eligible. If he wants the Giants to tear up the cost controlled contract that OBJ signed and have the organization shoulder the injury risk and give him guaranteed money, then he should be amenable to accepting a below market deal. If he wants top dollar now, then fuck him. The Giants should be prepared to levy fines in the event of any mandatory activity holdouts and potential suspensions in the event his behavior is deemed detrimental to the team.
Giants can control OBJ for only $28M over the next 3 years with current contract plus one tag year. While I am not suggesting that is prudent, if the OBJ camp can't wait that long then maybe he will accept an under-market deal now to get the money flowing.
At market, this guy could command as high as $19M/year. So maybe at an under-market 5 year deal gives him say $15M/year with 50% of it guaranteed?
Giants would be smart to get him now at a below-market deal. This is what I was getting at with my proposal. Give him an extension that pays him better than AB. Doesn't have to be by much. Just better.
But tack it on to his current contract so that over the course of the contract the AAV is lower, and make sure the guarantees are something we can live with if there is injury and he cannot play it out.
Of course, like many on this thread I want to keep him at a bargain rate. But I also don't want him going to another team, and I want him to be a player that will always be a NYG favorite. Why not give him a chance to earn a huge check now and commit to us in that exact way? Not sure if he would go for it, but it seems reasonable that he might, particularly if he is currently interested in extending his deal.
So, give him an extension with $21MM signing bonus over 7 years, low salaries over the next two years (similar to what he's now going to earn), and then have the big dollars hit when Eli's contract comes off the books.
He will be 31 when he hits FA and you can decide then if he's still the goods. In the meantime he can destroy every receiving record the NYG have and possibly make a run at NFL records as well.
I threw out a post in jest earlier this week on "maybe trading him for 2 first rounders" to stir the pot on the topic. And I was shocked to see how many BBI'ers wold do it for less.
Time & circumstances will mature him, and if so, we are only left with perhaps the greatest WR in recent memory...
Abhorrently poor logic, but it is what it is. What confuses me is that at least two of the people vocal about getting what we can for Beckham and letting him become somebody else's headache were pretty adamant that getting rid of Will Hill was a terrible idea.
Not sure how subtracting the best skill player I've seen on this team is a good idea, but people keep trying to educate me on why.
I just can't understand why people are so eager to push the greatest offensive talent we've ever seen in this uniform out the door as soon as possible.
Because he's not at OTA's? Because he's been flagged in a few games for losing his composure?
The way people talk about this guy, you'd think he was a rapist and a serial killer.
This idea that he'll never win anything in his career because he's some "diva" is just such fucking bullshit that I can't even keep a straight face when I read it. It's lunacy. Nothing about Odell Beckham lowers the Giants' ceiling or limits their potential. It's the exact fucking opposite.
Ironically, Josh Norman has played in a Super Bowl, with a decent shot at winning a ring. Not to mention the list of players that can be considered jackasses or divas who hold a ring is lengthy.
In hindsight, I'd have been better off not reading the thread.
He came back from a broken leg well before he was supposed to and was the Eagles' best player in that game.
Same guy that was doing sit ups in his driveway and had all sorts of rifts with his own QB.
That 2004 team with Owens was also the best team the Eagles fielded in the Reid era and was the best team they've fielded maybe ever. It was the only 13 win team they've ever had in their entire franchise history.
And yet, I have to keep wading through this bullshit idea that "diva" WR's wreck team chemistry and prevent teams from winning anything.
I have no problem with the Giants giving him everything he deserves. If he shows up and does his job, he'll get paid in due time. If he wants it now, then he has to accept a below market deal. If he wants to set the market, then he'll have to wait as the Giants have the leverage in controlling his rights. Mutual respect will go a long way. If he hold out, then expect the fines. If the relationship deteriorates and he presses his case in social media and traditional media, then be prepared for fines and suspension due to conduct detrimental to the team.
A lot of people to this day blame the eagles playoff loss on "the defense getting gassed" even though they only gave up 16 points in that game and the Giants finished 1-4 after Plax shot himself.
I advocated trading Plax the summer after the Super Bowl, and was livid when he got a new contract.
I don't expect Beckham to shoot himself, but it's not beyond the pale to suggest that his personality could become a problem. And at least we're starting to see the fanboys admit that he's a diva. I suppose that's progress.
Primarily though I'm just opposed to committing so much money to him. I'm surprised there are so many people that just assume he's going to be Jerry Rice, as if that were an easy thing to do. It's like everyone here has forgotten about all the great receivers we've had recently who flamed out too early.
Even before the gun incident, how many practices did he skip out on? How many times was he late to meetings?
And the man caught one of the most important passes in NYG history and has a ring on his finger.
Beckham will "never win a fucking thing" though.. because of who he is.
Love it!
Has it really been reduced to calling fans of the team "fanboys" as a derogatory comment because they aren't considering a guy who is the team's best player to be an absolute Cancer?
Put aside the fact that the default belief system of "Fans" is to root positively for the team and see the contradictions that exist.
You're talking about a fanbase that insinuated that Reese and the coaches were morons for holding Will Hill to a certain standard and then out the other side of their mouth considered the front office enablers of a wife-beater in Josh Brown.
Furthermore, people seem to lump Beckham in as if he's an absolute shitshow off the field, yet he's had not a single arrest or done anything other than acts of self-promotion, but the guy gets killed like he's the knife-wielding friend of Ray Lewis.
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You didn't see this kind of split between fans when Plax shot himself and his actions directly caused a great season to go down the tubes.
I advocated trading Plax the summer after the Super Bowl, and was livid when he got a new contract.
I don't expect Beckham to shoot himself, but it's not beyond the pale to suggest that his personality could become a problem. And at least we're starting to see the fanboys admit that he's a diva. I suppose that's progress.
Primarily though I'm just opposed to committing so much money to him. I'm surprised there are so many people that just assume he's going to be Jerry Rice, as if that were an easy thing to do. It's like everyone here has forgotten about all the great receivers we've had recently who flamed out too early.
You're consistent but I'd be willing to bet a lot of fans souring on Beckham now we're the same ones that were Plax "fanboys" when he directly screwed over the team.
He may or may not be Jerry Rice but he's the most explosive receiver this franchise has ever had at this point in his career. A lot can happen between now and when the organization has to make a decision. If he stays healthy and continues to produce at this level, he will get paid and deservedly so.
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And at least we're starting to see the fanboys admit that he's a diva. I suppose that's progress.
Has it really been reduced to calling fans of the team "fanboys" as a derogatory comment because they aren't considering a guy who is the team's best player to be an absolute Cancer?
Put aside the fact that the default belief system of "Fans" is to root positively for the team and see the contradictions that exist.
You're talking about a fanbase that insinuated that Reese and the coaches were morons for holding Will Hill to a certain standard and then out the other side of their mouth considered the front office enablers of a wife-beater in Josh Brown.
Furthermore, people seem to lump Beckham in as if he's an absolute shitshow off the field, yet he's had not a single arrest or done anything other than acts of self-promotion, but the guy gets killed like he's the knife-wielding friend of Ray Lewis.
After listening to three years of encomiums to Beckham's "competitiveness" and "fire" that were usually just rationalizing his assholish behavior, you could understand how I'd view him being called a diva as progress.
I pointed out about two games into his career that if he were an Eagle we'd all think he was a total asshole. I still feel that way strongly.
And I can live with the Giants having a total asshole as a player... Just don't tell me it's because of his "fire" or whatever. People tried to sell that same line of bullshit with Shockey.
I wouldn't call him a cancer at this point, but I wouldn't rule out the possibility that he becomes one.
Terrell Owens, Randy Moss, Ochocinco and if you want to add Beckham to the group all can be looked at as assholes, and nearly every single one of them put in the most work in the offseason and in the training room. You can question Moss on giving up in games possibly, but the guy worked his ass off, and actually continues to do so by working with youth groups on boot camps of sorts.
People shouldn't confuse the two aspects, just as they shouldn't confuse being an asshole on the field with being a criminal or a bad dude off the field.
Terrell Owens, Randy Moss, Ochocinco and if you want to add Beckham to the group all can be looked at as assholes, and nearly every single one of them put in the most work in the offseason and in the training room. You can question Moss on giving up in games possibly, but the guy worked his ass off, and actually continues to do so by working with youth groups on boot camps of sorts.
People shouldn't confuse the two aspects, just as they shouldn't confuse being an asshole on the field with being a criminal or a bad dude off the field.
Who's calling him a criminal though?
I don't think every athlete has the same level of drive.
I think he's struggled to channel his emotions correctly at times, but he's never left a shred of doubt that he cares immensely about football and being the best player he can possibly be.
The diva stuff is overblown anyway. We've never seen Beckham throw Eli under the bus or be called a bad teammate. We've seen guys like Dez scream at teammates on the sidelines during games, Owens' issues with McNabb were well-documented.. Beckham hit a kicking net.
he is 24 - and already 1 of the most dangerous "weapons" in the league. he conveniently will be do an extension when Eli's contract starts to come off the books ... and even if that wasn't the case, he's a no brainer re-signing.
wanna wait a year? sure. letting him walk / trading for draft picks is a joke. you do not trade a young elite/all-pro/future HOF caliber player entering his prime for the false hope of draft picks. absolutely ridiculous to even consider it.
I don't think every athlete has the same level of drive.
I think he's struggled to channel his emotions correctly at times, but he's never left a shred of doubt that he cares immensely about football and being the best player he can possibly be.
The diva stuff is overblown anyway. We've never seen Beckham throw Eli under the bus or be called a bad teammate. We've seen guys like Dez scream at teammates on the sidelines during games, Owens' issues with McNabb were well-documented.. Beckham hit a kicking net.
I don't know how you can definitively say Beckham's drive is exceptional compared to his peers. If his drive were so incredible, for example, wouldn't he be at OTA's? I'd imagine that a player so obsessed with winning a title would not pass up an opportunity to work with his coaches and teammates. Are Will Tye or Zack DeOssie less driven because they attend OTA's but aren't as gifted as Beckham?
I'm just tired of this narrative that Beckham is way more competitive than his teammates, and that is why he acts like an ass.
nope, it'll be "cheap" Webb throwing quick hitting darts out of the shotgun to Odell - letting him do the rest, and reminding us of why he's worth the blank check he should be given by this front office.
he's 24! theres room for improvement ... which is disturbing.
this - ( New Window )
Attending OTA's have absolutely nothing to do with that. He's not driven to prove to guys like you that he's a team-player, he's driven to be the best WR possible. Which is why he's been training his ass off this entire time and working just has hard as anyone else.
His own teammates will be the first ones to tell you that he works as hard as anyone else. Brandon Marshall said it himself and marveled over how special he thinks Beckham is.
You think every single athlete has the same drive?
I disagree.
I don't even think OBJ is an ahole like everyone seems to think. I think he's an amazing person that has compassion and cares for people. If you watch anything that he does off the field, he's very generous and caring. He's one of those guys that is just a fiery competitor(I don't care if some dummy doesn't like to refer to him as that) that hasn't learned how to control his emotions, but clearly he's aware enough to realize that and will eventually figure it out.
I look forward to the few idiots disappearing as OBJ plays out his HOF career.
As for the Newhouse quote, he was probably sticking up for a teammate after the millionth question about Beckham doing something stupid.
And we agree on one thing: Beckham isn't driven to be a great team guy.
I guess Eli Manning doesn't give a shit because he doesn't act like a moron after every positive play.
I don't even think OBJ is an ahole like everyone seems to think. I think he's an amazing person that has compassion and cares for people. If you watch anything that he does off the field, he's very generous and caring. He's one of those guys that is just a fiery competitor(I don't care if some dummy doesn't like to refer to him as that) that hasn't learned how to control his emotions, but clearly he's aware enough to realize that and will eventually figure it out.
I look forward to the few idiots disappearing as OBJ plays out his HOF career.
This isn't just drinking koolaid, it's straight up injecting it intravenously. If a player on the Eagles made it a routine to show up late for fan events and no show charity events he signed on for the way Zbeckham has the last two offseasons, there's no way in hell you'd be claiming that player an an amazing, compassionate person.
And for the record, I don't care if he's an asshole or not. I don't need nice guys on my team.
There's not one teammate on the record saying anything but positive things about Beckham.
You're sitting here claiming he's a shitty, me-first guy who is a bad teammate while the guys who actually play football with him all rave about his work ethic and say otherwise.
I know who I am choosing to believe... and it's definitely not the account of a fan acting like a jilted ex-lover over a football player skipping voluntary OTA's.
I guess Eli Manning doesn't give a shit because he doesn't act like a moron after every positive play.
Your posts contain a lot of fire.
There's not one teammate on the record saying anything but positive things about Beckham.
You're sitting here claiming he's a shitty, me-first guy who is a bad teammate while the guys who actually play football with him all rave about his work ethic and say otherwise.
I know who I am choosing to believe... and it's definitely not the account of a fan acting like a jilted ex-lover over a football player skipping voluntary OTA's.
What do you think they're going to say? Nothing good comes out of bad nothing a teammate.
And what about Reese's worried about his maturity and needing to grow up? I guess those don't matter?
The best organizations DO NOT take care of players. Look at the Pats and Seahawks as the best examples. They cut you when you come for the dough. That's what we need to do too if OBJ won't play ball for him. He knows his marketability lies in playing in NY - good luck playing for the Bills or Vikings and see how many instagram hits you get.
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Give me a fucking break. The term fire is used so often as a synonym for stupidity it's incredible.
I guess Eli Manning doesn't give a shit because he doesn't act like a moron after every positive play.
Your posts contain a lot of fire.
Fire is good.
As for the Newhouse quote, he was probably sticking up for a teammate after the millionth question about Beckham doing something stupid.
And we agree on one thing: Beckham isn't driven to be a great team guy.
Do you even believe the "fire" that you post? You have to create an imaginary context to explain away a positive quote from a teammate because you refuse to accept an opinion of Beckham that doesn't match yours.
What Reese said has nothing to do with Beckham being a bad teammate. It's about controlling his emotions on the field. Which I've said many times I think he needs to do a better job of.
There's no evidence anywhere that he's a bad teammate. You're telling me I shouldn't believe players saying otherwise, but I'm supposed to think you're right when you have nothing to go by aside from him skipping voluntary OTA's?
To use your own words...
Give me a fucking break.
His rookie year gets an A++ grade any way you look at it. He follows that up by putting up 96/1450/13 in his soph season and 101/1367/10 this past year. Even by today's standards, those are 2 dominant statistical seasons by a WR.
Yet, a big part of me feels like Odell could've done even more these last 2 years. He's a TD machine, but it feels like there were 5 more "easy" TDs that Odell didn't convert due to not being able to make a "catchable" reception. He's had his bigtime 4th quarter moments too like when he roasted Norman/Finnegan in the "Norman game", but he's had a handful of moments where he came up short at at an important time.
His grade in Year 2/3 is still an A/A+ overall, but it feels like just a B by his standards because he was thisclose to doing so much more. But then I look at the numbers again...
A: 327 Targets -- 197 Rec -- 2817 Yds -- 23 TD -- 5 INT* --- 105.3 Passer Rating
B: 347 Targets -- 242 Rec -- 3118 Yds -- 22 TD -- 11 INT* -- 105.6 Passer Rating
C: 332 Targets -- 219 Rec -- 3280 Yds -- 14 TD -- 6 INT* --- 104.7 Passer Rating
*INTs where player was the target
Those are Odell's (A) numbers these past 2 years compared with Antonio Brown (B) and Julio Jones' (C) numbers. Odell trails in Yards and Receptions, but his TD and INT rates are crazy impressive. This is why he has roughly the same passer rating as those 2 guys. For all intents and purposes, Odell/Brown/Julio were basically equal in terms of stats these past 2 years.
But that's before you compare the offenses they played with.The Falcons and Steelers both had far better OLines, both had FAR better running options, and both had better secondary receiving options. I think it's fair to say that Odell received more attention from opposing Defenses than Brown or Julio did due to the lack of talent around him. Ryan and Big Ben have also played better than Eli the last 2 years, one area in particular is the deep ball. Whereas Big Ben and Ryan have been great on long bombs, Eli and Odell have not been on the same page with deep connections. Part of that is because our OL doesn't give Eli enough time to set those bombs up.
Do I think Odell has been better than Julio and Antonio the past 2 years? No, I don't. AB and Julio have both shown up huge in the playoffs. Brown won a playoff game with a great catch and effort, and Julio should've iced a Super Bowl Championship with a ridiculously sick and clutch catch. Odell, on the otherhand, came up tiny in Green Bay.
But Brown and Jones are two HOFers in the middle of their primes whereas Odell is just about to enter his prime. Statistically, young Odell has been right there and arguably more impressive than the 2 consensus top WRs in the league. And Visually, Odell's explosiveness stands out as the most jawdropping skill any of these 3 players have.
I have a lot of issues with Odell's personality. Quite frankly, the man has a lot of "bitch tendencies". He's a brat. His hands are also inconsistent. He also seems to lack some physical strength, he has explosive power but his regular strength seems like it could improve based on the way DBs seem to be able to body him on GL fades. For as many highlight catches as he makes, he doesn't make a ton of powerful in-traffic catches like a Brandon Marshall or DeAndre Hopkins.
But for as many faults as he has, this guy was arguably the best player at his position over the NFL during the first 3 years of his career. I hate the diva attitude and the instagram-era BS, but YOU HAVE TO PAY THIS MAN. Giving Odell the same money as Antonio Brown is totally reasonable in a league where "the next QB up" is always getting more money than the previous Franchise QB who got paid. This isn't like giving Flacco the same money as Aaron Rodgers.
Age 22-24 Odell has been a great football player. But most of these athletes peak at roughly age 27, so it's very possible that age 25-27 Odell is going to be even better in the coming years. He's going to be more refined. He's hopefully going to be more consistent and eliminate the drops issue. He's going to hopefully be more mature and know how to handle the spotlight better. I want Odell in blue for his entire career, or atleast the next 5 years.
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but if he has another amazing season and stays healthy, abso-freakin-lutely.
I don't even think OBJ is an ahole like everyone seems to think. I think he's an amazing person that has compassion and cares for people. If you watch anything that he does off the field, he's very generous and caring. He's one of those guys that is just a fiery competitor(I don't care if some dummy doesn't like to refer to him as that) that hasn't learned how to control his emotions, but clearly he's aware enough to realize that and will eventually figure it out.
I look forward to the few idiots disappearing as OBJ plays out his HOF career.
This isn't just drinking koolaid, it's straight up injecting it intravenously. If a player on the Eagles made it a routine to show up late for fan events and no show charity events he signed on for the way Zbeckham has the last two offseasons, there's no way in hell you'd be claiming that player an an amazing, compassionate person.
And for the record, I don't care if he's an asshole or not. I don't need nice guys on my team.
I don't know who you are and you sure as hell don't know me. Don't tell me what I would think. Certain people keep using this eagles reference and it's stupid. First off, I'm not you. Just because you would bash another team doesn't mean I can't be fair when I see other players actions. OBJ is absolutely a very good person and a good teammate and nothing I have seen goes against that. He can be a bit aholish when he plays, but he will cool it down a bit as he matures.
I guess Eli Manning doesn't give a shit because he doesn't act like a moron after every positive play.
Fire is good. Tom Brady is a fiery competitor, as was Eli's brother. They however knew how to chanel that fire. OBJ hasn't learned that yet. It's immaturity, plain and simple.
I'm not really following your Eli point. Did I say that Eli doesn't care because he doesn't have outbursts? I don't think I did.
You keep making things up to try to make a point and when called on it, it's straw man after straw man. You have nothing. You dug this massive hole and you are stuck in it. You have yet to make 1 solid point when discussing OBJ, not one.
If that's how player competes, fine. If that's not who a player is, that's fine. From your couch or seat, you have no idea which one wants it more or is more competitive or whatever.
I brought up the Eagles because if a player on their team behaved the way OBJ has there's zero chance you or anyone on this board would be on their knees for them for basically being a saint the way you are.
You're the one going on about how he cares for people and is an amazing person based on... I'm not really sure, since there's a pretty decent trail of him being a fuckboy. (Which, again, doesn't matter to me. Most athletes are assholes even if they try to paint a facade otherwise or even succeed in doing so.)
Why?
Why?
And there we have it. Faced with plenty of good reasons why the Giants should absolutely retain Beckham (notably Osi's stellar post above), you choose to zero in on the issue of his behavior. It's clear, you don't like the guy and that would be fine if you were even remotely close to be unbiased in your assessment of him and his value to the Giants. But you can't.
Because "fire."
I expect him to show up to mandatory mini-camp in shape and ready to work. I expect him to show up in training camp in shape and ready to work. I believe that's what his teammates expect of him, too. Ditto for his coaches.
He's playing in NY. Tie goes to us
But nice of you to refrain from calling the giants best player an actual hinderance to winning. The same player who has lifted the offense when literally no one else on the team was close to capable.
Some of you out think yourself at every turn. Team cancer? What the fuck does that even mean? How on earth does a good to great player cause a team to die? How???? I wanna know!! Please enlighten me because in the 35 years I've been glued to pro sports in the NYC NJ area i have never seen a player matastasize into a tumor that eats the team away. Even Terrell Owens..... nope.... sorry....wrong! Owens helped his team win.
Like I said the one thing we should fear with big long term contracts is health. Team cancer my ass. Made up media driven horse shit.
I don't care if Beckham is an asshole or is immature or acts like an idiot when he scores a TD. This isn't my high school class. This is my favorite football team. I want wins. I want to beat Dallas in December. Beckham helps the cause. Of course I want Beckham to maximize his potential and longevity. I'd love to see the carry himself like Eli or Jeter but he is who he is. You want to run the guy out of here simply because you don't like his act. Thank Christ you're not the GM.
You know how long a distraction goes? Right up until game day. The second the lights come on and the fans cheer and the curtain goes up every "distraction" from the past week is forgotten. Distractions are a nuisance to the team and players and coaches. Players will get annoyed. Coaches will get annoyed. And the media is there with pen in hand ready to write the latest narrative. Fans eat it up.
If you were a pro athlete and some teammate was involved in a big story. And the media asked you a bunch of questions throughout the week is that reallly going to impact how you perform on Sunday? This shit is childish to even debate.
I think if the Giants offer him a contract that makes him the highest paid receiver in the league they are making a big mistake that will come back to bite them.
I think if the Giants offer him a contract that makes him the highest paid receiver in the league they are making a big mistake that will come back to bite them.
The last part of that sentence is your bias against Beckham as a person speaking loud and clear. If you simply say "no WR is worth that much money" and leave it as that I'd atleast respect the opinion. But that last part of statement makes it very hard to take it seriously or have a good debate with.
I make no secret that I'd be happy not to have to root for Beckham anymore, but even if I liked him I wouldn't pay that much. It's nuts.
You know how long a distraction goes? Right up until game day. The second the lights come on and the fans cheer and the curtain goes up every "distraction" from the past week is forgotten. Distractions are a nuisance to the team and players and coaches. Players will get annoyed. Coaches will get annoyed. And the media is there with pen in hand ready to write the latest narrative. Fans eat it up.
If you were a pro athlete and some teammate was involved in a big story. And the media asked you a bunch of questions throughout the week is that reallly going to impact how you perform on Sunday? This shit is childish to even debate.
Now, as far as distractions go, I offer one thing - access. I'm a nobody, a butthead by all accounts and I know one person "in the know" and I get asked constantly by people who know me what I can find out. If I know, I share it's that simple. Now, put yourself in say...Damon Harrison's shoes. He is an NFL vet, a pro bowler and the face of the defense. DO you think he doesn't field hundreds of texts daily for some scoop on Odell? Do you think every player he's played with and against who he's cool with doesn't just say .hey man, what's up with Odell? Because they do. Now multiply that by everyone on the team because every single solitary one fields the same shit daily, I guarantee it. Every rookie whose ex teammates are in awe of him playing Odell, every FA who came here now has friends who knows that he knows..Odell. Every coach, every trainer, every employee will get the same fucking bullshit daily about it. That's not impactful? That's not draining, not annoying, not a distraction? Think about this in day to day real life terms and really THINK...do you think this is a pain in the ass to them? If you don't, you're lying or defending someone aimlessly. Will it matter in the long run? Don't know, I don't, you don't and neither does anyone else. Does it have the potential for risk? Yes, yes it does and that is not a good thing for a team, not a good thing for a team with Super Bowl aspirations not in this day and age of unlimited access and non stop interruptions. He's a problem right now, that may stop but right now to say it's not a big deal is being obtuse and quite frankly not using your god given brain to think critically about an issue. This is not 1986, it's not a few reporters in a paper, it's non stop, all live, all the time, 100% access to everyone all the time and it will take a toll on these players and coaches and organization. Saying otherwise is just apologizing for poor behavior. He's being an ass, you know and I know it and we all wish he wasn't. It's that simple for me. Do you prefer he be here working or be away making a dick of himself at every turn? Answer that honestly and you'll see why people care about this. He should be here, he should be a part of something special and he's not and it sucks, period.
I just don't care about the drama side of things. This isn't football related.
Funny how no one is talking about the best defensive players on the chiefs missing OTAs.
Short memories, Joey and others. You're my age, you remember these examples I just posted. Obj isn't even holding and you're reading the riot act on here like the guy is torpedoing the season. Cmon already.
Short memories, Joey and others. You're my age, you remember these examples I just posted. Obj isn't even holding and you're reading the riot act on here like the guy is torpedoing the season. Cmon already.
We know way too much. I hate the salary talk and shit like this. The non stop 24 hour media driven scrutiny is tiresome and harmful to actual analysis. And the mere fact that we are talking about obj's cap hit on a contract that is likely to be years away is just sad. Enjoy the guy on the field.
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Whatever I said my piece. OBJ will be fine. If he isn't he isn't. Missing OTAs as possibly part of some contract ploy has been done 1000s of times before. Nyg legends, all of them, held out and at times went scorched earth in hopes of getting paid. Some of these camp holdouts subsequently led to bad seasons. Carl banks held out for money and had a bad year for his standards. Marshall did. Simms held out in 89 and had his worst year.
Short memories, Joey and others. You're my age, you remember these examples I just posted. Obj isn't even holding and you're reading the riot act on here like the guy is torpedoing the season. Cmon already.
Fair enough, my hope is that it amounts to fuck all and we win a Super Bowl and I look like a schlub (which I usually do), but something about this just rubs me the wrong way and I'm not sure what it is. It's more gut feel than anything tangible, but as you said we've seen it before, we'll see how it goes and root for the best outcome. Peace.
Dude you're not alone believe me. And like I said of course I want obj to be as perfect as humanly possible. I'd be a lying fool to say otherwise. But I just don't see the point in worrying right now about the OTAs and looming contract. You have to pay him. If he blows up and we eat shit for 2-3 years so be it. You draft guys and pray they turn into obj wack job or not.
My father in law called me yesterday and completely blasted obj saying to dump him lol. And he's more tolerant with players than I am. Obj is a lightning rod. I get it.
You think every player isn't inundated with texts about Eli and the memorabilia thing? There are tons of distractions and a professional won't let it effect their job. Plain and simple.
I am also of the belief that there are cancers in sports. TO was a cancer, he divided locker rooms. OBJ is NOT that guy.
If U want Ocelll out, you dumb as fuck. Go fuck your idiotic self.
If U want Ocelll out, you dumb as fuck. Go fuck your idiotic self.
hmmm...
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Since LT. But because your a crybaby butch we should say something to shut your dumbass up.
If U want Ocelll out, you dumb as fuck. Go fuck your idiotic self.
hmmm...
Haha, now that's some funny shit.
I think if the Giants offer him a contract that makes him the highest paid receiver in the league they are making a big mistake that will come back to bite them.
The Giants have him this year at 1.8 mil. They have him next year for the 5th year option, and then they can franchise him the year after. Barring injury, the Giants will make out like bandits in terms of ROI over the life of his first 6 years in the league.
If the Giants pay him early, it will be at a discount. Otherwise there's no incentive to do a deal this year or next year. If they don't and he continues to produce then he deserves to be paid accordingly -- by the Giants or someone else.
You say let him walk -- would you be cool with seeing him in Philly and playing him twice a year?
but if you do want to sign him, you don't give crazy dollars to average/slightly better than average players like Pugh. stay the course this year, unless OBJ wants to give a hometown discount (which he won't, because the hd is a myth), then use the savings off ditching Pugh to sign him long term. He's cheap this year and next, and he likely isn't giving you a discount to resign. so it makes no sense. why increase your expenses when you can lock him up for two years and then use the tag?
Good attitude! I'm sure all of the younger players are looking forward to sucking in the not too distant future.
but if you do want to sign him, you don't give crazy dollars to average/slightly better than average players like Pugh. stay the course this year, unless OBJ wants to give a hometown discount (which he won't, because the hd is a myth), then use the savings off ditching Pugh to sign him long term. He's cheap this year and next, and he likely isn't giving you a discount to resign. so it makes no sense. why increase your expenses when you can lock him up for two years and then use the tag?
I'm not following. The only aging player close to the end is Eli. I guess you can say Marshall, but he's not a huge part of the team. We have a young OL. We have a DL that are all in their primes and will be here for a long time. Our secondary is very young with Jackrabbit, Apple and Collins. We have Engram, Shepard and Odell who are very young. So what exactly are you talking about? This team is built for now and the future, we just need to replace Eli.
Love the late night drunk Osi posts. You were so blasted that I couldn't even follow what you were saying. Who exactly were you referring to? lol
Lol Osi, been there!
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The debate is about whether or not to pay him.
I think if the Giants offer him a contract that makes him the highest paid receiver in the league they are making a big mistake that will come back to bite them.
The Giants have him this year at 1.8 mil. They have him next year for the 5th year option, and then they can franchise him the year after. Barring injury, the Giants will make out like bandits in terms of ROI over the life of his first 6 years in the league.
If the Giants pay him early, it will be at a discount. Otherwise there's no incentive to do a deal this year or next year. If they don't and he continues to produce then he deserves to be paid accordingly -- by the Giants or someone else.
You say let him walk -- would you be cool with seeing him in Philly and playing him twice a year?
Completely. If they want to throw that much money at one player, great.
Lolol
but if you do want to sign him, you don't give crazy dollars to average/slightly better than average players like Pugh. stay the course this year, unless OBJ wants to give a hometown discount (which he won't, because the hd is a myth), then use the savings off ditching Pugh to sign him long term. He's cheap this year and next, and he likely isn't giving you a discount to resign. so it makes no sense. why increase your expenses when you can lock him up for two years and then use the tag?
I'm so sick of this "win now" BS. Take a look at this roster, outside of Marshall/Eli/DRC.
Jenkins, Apple, Collins, JPP, Snacks, OV, Beckham, Perkins, Shepard, Engram, Pugh, Richburg, etc. ... this team can win a SB and still remain competitive for a very long time.
Dude posts probably the most insightful, well thought-out post on this entire thread, and then follows up hours later with two that are almost completely unintelligible.
Well done, my friend.
would've been quite a few "holier than thou" trolls calling for his release/trade. ya know, because he was kind of a POS.
Some that killed nyg and strahan in 07 are on this very thread. That doesn't mean they are wrong now but, well... yeah.
If you aren't in the mood to pay a guy like Beckham then you subscribe to some weird team building philosophy or ideology that is all but impossible to sustain or win with. Every single gm alive pays Beckham. Every. Single. One. The guy is a human cheat code. Let him walk only if you're absolutely certain he's damaged goods. Until then, sign him.
At least you were drunk; we still haven't figured out Terps' excuse.