Beckham is entering the fourth year of his rookie deal, is locked in for 2018 via the exercised fifth-year option, and can be tagged beyond that. Brown is entering his seventh year.
All else being equal, Beckham would probably get more; but there are too many differences - most notably, how far he is from free agency. Julio Jones and A.J. Green are probably better comps, although I think both deals were signed two years ago, so the numbers have to be adjusted upward - if only for a higher cap.
Coming back to the basic question of whether to pay Beckham top dollar, it depends on how long you make him wait for it. A new contract now would have to reflect a discount for the transfer of 2017-2018 injury risk from the player to the team. How important is that factor? Ask Hakeem Nicks and Steve Smith - or, on the other side of the coin, Victor Cruz.
There is no reason to give him anything right now.
Just like I support a player's right to do everything in their power to get the best deal for themselves they can, I support the team I root for doing what's in its best interest and giving out long term deals with historic for the position guaranteed cash before it has to isn't that.
He can be unhappy about his current deal, but oh well. If he stays healthy, he'll get his in a year or two when it's time for it. He can thank his union for the CBA nuking rookie deals to the extent they were.
If he does stay healthy and continue on this pace, he'll be even more expensive than it would be if you did it now. This isn't a one-sided situation. There are things to consider on both sides.
What player have the Giants given a deal to two years before their current contract was up to? How many players in general, across the league, get the last two years of their rookie deals torn up these days?
The Giants also have the franchise tag available to them, which gives them control over his rights until 2021 if they want to use it.
Fear of contract escalation is small potatoes, given the type of guaranteed money he's going to be after.
and then have the franchise option available in 5 years if need be. Why is it possibly better to franchise for 2 years after his rookie deal expires, and then give the long term deal. And BTW, if Im Odell I tell NYG to shove the franchise up their asses. Im not running crossing patterns on a one year deal when I have a sneaker contract.
If Odell gets hurt early in his contract, we rebuild. Eli goes, and we bottom out a bit. Such is the risk you run. It is better than planning for mediocrity.
RE: RE: Let's calm down with the Jerry Rice comparisons
When Odell turned in, by far, the best 3 years to start a receiver's career?
OK...if he keeps this level up for another 10 years then we can start talking about a comparison to Jerry Rice. Until then they aren't in the same universe. Rice put up 9 or 10 seasons that are the statistical equal or better than anything Beckham's done to this point, and in an era that was much less pass happy than today. Let's just be happy with Beckham being one of the top 3 WRs currently in the NFL. Jerry Rice is a decade away at least.
And I'll make the same point here that I made yesterday in a different thread. Between 2012-2014 Dez Bryant put together three years that equaled Beckham's three years thus far...and no one around here was calling Dez Bryant the next Jerry Rice.
And no one is calling him that now, that's for damn sure. There is no rule stating that Beckham's (or anyone else's) career trajectory has to continue along a consistent positive trajectory. If there were such a rule we'd still be watching Eli throw to Steve Smith, Hakeem Nicks, Mario Manningham, and Victor Cruz.
RE: If they can't discipline him now, how will they be able to
What are we disciplining him for exactly? Dude needs to grow up, but it sounds like you just want to punish him to prove a point. These are people. Not dogs.
Secondly, if we pay him an 8 figure salary, what do you think happens to those game checks? You can suspend him if he does something that warrants it, missing those larger checks still hurts you in the pockets. This place is absurd. I can't wait to get a deal done to see the hysterics and nasty comments come out.
Get real, Odell Beckham's deal is going to crush that like a soda can... Early guess.. 8 years for ball park, $150 million with $75 million+ guaranteed. Sounds crazy, don't believe me, just watch. I will be happy on that day, but i would love to see the post's on BBI when that day comes, LOL at his haters among the Giants fans.
RE: RE: If they can't discipline him now, how will they be able to
What are we disciplining him for exactly? Dude needs to grow up, but it sounds like you just want to punish him to prove a point. These are people. Not dogs.
Secondly, if we pay him an 8 figure salary, what do you think happens to those game checks? You can suspend him if he does something that warrants it, missing those larger checks still hurts you in the pockets. This place is absurd. I can't wait to get a deal done to see the hysterics and nasty comments come out.
1. That time he lost his mind and started spearing Josh Norman and fighting every down.
2. That time as a rookie he incited a fracas with the Rams.
3. Shouting at fans in the stand at Vikings Stadium.
4. Same game- contacting an official when he was begging for a call and getting a 15 yard penalty, then again spearing a player (Xaview Rhodes).
Those are just off the top of my head.
Regarding any issue with the 'personality & decisions' of OBJ..
Coming back to the basic question of whether to pay Beckham top dollar, it depends on how long you make him wait for it. A new contract now would have to reflect a discount for the transfer of 2017-2018 injury risk from the player to the team. How important is that factor? Ask Hakeem Nicks and Steve Smith - or, on the other side of the coin, Victor Cruz.
Good post.
RE: RE: RE: If they can't discipline him now, how will they be able to
What are we disciplining him for exactly? Dude needs to grow up, but it sounds like you just want to punish him to prove a point. These are people. Not dogs.
Secondly, if we pay him an 8 figure salary, what do you think happens to those game checks? You can suspend him if he does something that warrants it, missing those larger checks still hurts you in the pockets. This place is absurd. I can't wait to get a deal done to see the hysterics and nasty comments come out.
1. That time he lost his mind and started spearing Josh Norman and fighting every down.
2. That time as a rookie he incited a fracas with the Rams.
3. Shouting at fans in the stand at Vikings Stadium.
4. Same game- contacting an official when he was begging for a call and getting a 15 yard penalty, then again spearing a player (Xaview Rhodes).
Those are just off the top of my head.
1) He served a suspension and fine for the Norman thing.
2) Rams were trying to play dirty, that fracas started because he bounced back up, and Damontre Moore did Damontre Moore things
3) I watched that game at a local bar, so I probably missed that occurrence.
4) I specifically recall him getting hit when he was already out of bounds, begging for the call, and accidentally bumped the ref. Ensuing play he got a taunting penalty.
I'm not saying he's above criticism, but we kind of pick things apart to the point of not appreciating a special talent for what it is. I don't know what the obsession is to punish OBJ, seems like many incidents started because officials were looking the other way on obvious dirty plays. He needs to grow up, but he's also learning with a target on his back, which is part of the territory for superstar players. He just has to prove some of those things in the past don't get in his head anymore, and I think he's at least taking the measures to do that.
There is no reason to give him anything right now.
Just like I support a player's right to do everything in their power to get the best deal for themselves they can, I support the team I root for doing what's in its best interest and giving out long term deals with historic for the position guaranteed cash before it has to isn't that.
He can be unhappy about his current deal, but oh well. If he stays healthy, he'll get his in a year or two when it's time for it. He can thank his union for the CBA nuking rookie deals to the extent they were.
If he does stay healthy and continue on this pace, he'll be even more expensive than it would be if you did it now. This isn't a one-sided situation. There are things to consider on both sides.
What player have the Giants given a deal to two years before their current contract was up to? How many players in general, across the league, get the last two years of their rookie deals torn up these days?
Not many. Just the great ones. Which applies here. Some examples would include JJ Watt and, as mentioned, Brown.
attached is a reminder of the player we're discussing. sometimes even I forget how special he is. it is a privilege to watch him play the sport - even if you don't necessarily "like" him.
he deserves to be the highest paid non-QB in the league, as he is a 1 man wrecking crew capable of scoring as soon as he touches the ball. ODB Career Highlights - ( New Window )
How many of those plays happened in games the Giants lost? The biggest plays of the 2007 and 2012 Superbowls happens were made by WR's who were average at best. (Big credit goes to Eli)
This offense would've been the worst in football without Odell . Plaxico and Steve Smith weren't mediocre in 07. Nicks Manningham Cruz was an excelent WR trio.
There is no reason to give him anything right now.
Just like I support a player's right to do everything in their power to get the best deal for themselves they can, I support the team I root for doing what's in its best interest and giving out long term deals with historic for the position guaranteed cash before it has to isn't that.
He can be unhappy about his current deal, but oh well. If he stays healthy, he'll get his in a year or two when it's time for it. He can thank his union for the CBA nuking rookie deals to the extent they were.
If he does stay healthy and continue on this pace, he'll be even more expensive than it would be if you did it now. This isn't a one-sided situation. There are things to consider on both sides.
What player have the Giants given a deal to two years before their current contract was up to? How many players in general, across the league, get the last two years of their rookie deals torn up these days?
Not many. Just the great ones. Which applies here. Some examples would include JJ Watt and, as mentioned, Brown.
Neither of which were Giants and Brown only had one year torn up, not two. Watt also now is currently dealing with major injury problems and Houston still owes him a ton money going forward.
And deservedly so. He's earned the right to be the highest paid WR in the game to this point. Obviously an injury or self inflicted gun shot wound would change the analysis.
The Giants haven't had a great player to do this for. So I'm not sure that taking the precedent that they haven't done it to this point means much. We are not talking about a typical player who had one big year. The best player the Giants have had to worry about paying was Cruz, and he wasn't a kid with a hall of fame pace three year run of all-pro level production. The standard doesn't apply. Even JPP before the fireworks wasn't this type of player.
You trade him out of the division and hopefully conference too.
Why? His stock will never be higher and the Giants will land a top #1 pick to go along with their other #1 pick.
Why are we going to pay him a HUGE contract, the highest paid WR in the game when the person throwing to him is either an un-proven QB ( who very possibly won't come close to Eli's production) or a string of moderate QB's that could take the length of his contract to eventually be supplemented by their next franchise QB.
There are too many quality players on D that will soon want to get paid huge money ( Collins for sure) and our O line is still shit.
Keep in mind that Jones and Brown have never won a SB and Pittsburgh has one of the top RB's in Bell and BR to boot.
I would rather trade him and recover a premium draft pic to help build both lines while eventually replacing him with a WR that will never duplicate his potential/production but will do his job well enough in combination with the much, much improved help in the trenches.
OBJ will not win a SB with this team given the state of those around him. Way to many upgrades needed.
I agree with those who would trade him. I'd do it now. To me he may have Jerry Rice-type talent, but he also has Terrell Owens-type mentality. I absolutely hate primma donna players.
You trade him out of the division and hopefully conference too.
Why? His stock will never be higher and the Giants will land a top #1 pick to go along with their other #1 pick.
Why are we going to pay him a HUGE contract, the highest paid WR in the game when the person throwing to him is either an un-proven QB ( who very possibly won't come close to Eli's production) or a string of moderate QB's that could take the length of his contract to eventually be supplemented by their next franchise QB.
There are too many quality players on D that will soon want to get paid huge money ( Collins for sure) and our O line is still shit.
Keep in mind that Jones and Brown have never won a SB and Pittsburgh has one of the top RB's in Bell and BR to boot.
I would rather trade him and recover a premium draft pic to help build both lines while eventually replacing him with a WR that will never duplicate his potential/production but will do his job well enough in combination with the much, much improved help in the trenches.
OBJ will not win a SB with this team given the state of those around him. Way to many upgrades needed.
Wait... what?
OBJ will not win a SB with this team given the state of those around him. Way to many upgrades needed.
How many NFL teams have better rosters than NYG right now? I don't think anyone could honestly name 5.
The Giants have one of the most balanced rosters in the NFL right now. Very few holes. You want to point to the OL? Fine.. every team has a weakness. You can't find me one NFL team without one.
Secondly...
Keep in mind that Jones and Brown have never won a SB and Pittsburgh has one of the top RB's in Bell and BR to boot.
This is a bit disingenuous as A) Jones JUST played in, and should have won one this past February if not for mind-bogglingly bad play-calling and a borderline miracle catch by Edelman.
and B) Brown played in one his rookie year - PIT lost by one score to a red hot Aaron Rodgers.
So, your point there pretty much rings hollow as both Jones and Brown have been part of championship caliber teams.
If you want to point out that Brown was a rookie and was making rookie money in 2010, okay. That was not the case for Jones last year and ATL never even gets to the SB without him. Full stop.
The Giants haven't had a great player to do this for. So I'm not sure that taking the precedent that they haven't done it to this point means much. We are not talking about a typical player who had one big year. The best player the Giants have had to worry about paying was Cruz, and he wasn't a kid with a hall of fame pace three year run of all-pro level production. The standard doesn't apply. Even JPP before the fireworks wasn't this type of player.
The first question I asked was about the Giants, then made a general ask about around the league.
You replied with no Giants (because they largely don't operate this way, with anyone -- each time even Eli got his much "safer" QB deals, it was with one year left) and two players, one of which got the typical for the league one year left treatment and wasn't applicable anyway and another that started to get hit with major injuries right about when his first deal would have been up.
I get that fans are attached to a great talent, but it's simply not common NFL business to rip up two years on rookie deals. It very, very rarely is a good idea, given the way things can change in an instant in this league.
I agree with those who would trade him. I'd do it now. To me he may have Jerry Rice-type talent, but he also has Terrell Owens-type mentality. I absolutely hate primma donna players.
Terrell Owens nearly won the Eagles a SB and the Cowboys were at their most recent best with him catching passes from Romo.
If you need players to be likeable to be on your team, good guys, you won't be able to build a 53 man roster or even starting lineup, never mind field a decently competitive squad.
I'd love to go back to late 2014 and read the opinions on Beckham from that point in time on this board.
I bet you couldn't find one negative comment on the guy from that time period. 99% of this board and almost every single Giant fan was waxing poetic about how exciting and how incredible a talent he was.
It's amazing how many people have completely changed their tune on him, especially when you consider how petty the reasons are. And his play has not declined one bit.
If I said in December of 2014 or January of 2015 that Odell Beckham would continue to play at the level he displayed as a rookie and that a large contingent of the Giants fan base would want to get rid of him by 2017 without him ever having been in any sort of legal trouble, no one would have ever believed it.
This team could be better than 2016 and have a worse record in 2017. The schedule starts very tough, and in the NFL when you play someone is almost as important as who you play.
I think the team is pretty good, but it's still awfully thin on both lines.
Nothing is guaranteed in the NFL, but I'd love to see a list of teams people think have better rosters than the Giants do right now.. because if we're being realistic, the list would be quite short.
No, I'm not saying NYG are the best team in the league.
But, as of now? Roster-wise? How many teams have a better WR trio than Beckham/Marshall/Shepard? How many have a better trio of corners than Jenkins/DRC/Apple? How many have a better safety than Collins? A better pair of DE's than Vernon/JPP? A better DT than Harrison?
Sure, our OL has question marks. We don't have unlimited depth everywhere. Does anyone?
Has Beckham done things we all wish he hadn't? Absolutely.
Has he had a suicide attempt, or if you believe him and his media team, a "prescription medication accident"?
Has he earned the ire of the vast majority of his teammates?
Has he had public workout press conferences in his driveway?
Has he feuded with his coaches and QB?
Owens wasn't just a "diva WR", he was arguably mentally unstable. Drawing a line between Owens and Beckham is just lazy hyperbole. Beckham is a generational talent who is on pace to do things that have never been done, and his behavior hasn't even approached that of an Owens, a Randy Moss, or a Chad Johnson. People need to get real and find some perspective on what they're complaining about.
Antonio Brown is also turning 29 next month, Beckham won't turn 25 until halfway through this season. His production to start his career blows Brown's away and he's been neck and neck with him since entering the league.
Richburg played injured all season and was a shell of himself. Pugh missed 4-5 games, and Rashad Jennings may have been one of the worst starting RB's in football. The guy had holes to run through and ran right into someone's back instead.
The run game picked up when Perkins started getting more carries.
This is mostly the same line that Eli had a career year under in 2015. Eli needs to be better than he was in 2016.
The Giants haven't had a great player to do this for. So I'm not sure that taking the precedent that they haven't done it to this point means much. We are not talking about a typical player who had one big year. The best player the Giants have had to worry about paying was Cruz, and he wasn't a kid with a hall of fame pace three year run of all-pro level production. The standard doesn't apply. Even JPP before the fireworks wasn't this type of player.
The first question I asked was about the Giants, then made a general ask about around the league.
You replied with no Giants (because they largely don't operate this way, with anyone -- each time even Eli got his much "safer" QB deals, it was with one year left) and two players, one of which got the typical for the league one year left treatment and wasn't applicable anyway and another that started to get hit with major injuries right about when his first deal would have been up.
I get that fans are attached to a great talent, but it's simply not common NFL business to rip up two years on rookie deals. It very, very rarely is a good idea, given the way things can change in an instant in this league.
But, again, the last time the Giants were in something close to this situation, it was Strahan. And even then it doesn't really fit the profile. I wouldn't use Eli as an example, since Eli Manning's first three years don't hold a candle to what we're seeing Beckham do. There were legitimate questions about Eli Manning's future as a starting player right up until like week 8 of year 3.
The Giants haven't had a great player to do this for. So I'm not sure that taking the precedent that they haven't done it to this point means much. We are not talking about a typical player who had one big year. The best player the Giants have had to worry about paying was Cruz, and he wasn't a kid with a hall of fame pace three year run of all-pro level production. The standard doesn't apply. Even JPP before the fireworks wasn't this type of player.
The first question I asked was about the Giants, then made a general ask about around the league.
You replied with no Giants (because they largely don't operate this way, with anyone -- each time even Eli got his much "safer" QB deals, it was with one year left) and two players, one of which got the typical for the league one year left treatment and wasn't applicable anyway and another that started to get hit with major injuries right about when his first deal would have been up.
I get that fans are attached to a great talent, but it's simply not common NFL business to rip up two years on rookie deals. It very, very rarely is a good idea, given the way things can change in an instant in this league.
But, again, the last time the Giants were in something close to this situation, it was Strahan. And even then it doesn't really fit the profile. I wouldn't use Eli as an example, since Eli Manning's first three years don't hold a candle to what we're seeing Beckham do. There were legitimate questions about Eli Manning's future as a starting player right up until like week 8 of year 3.
I used Manning as a reference because there's generally a lower risk of injury for a QB. If it makes you feel better look outside the team and at how Luck didn't get get extended until he had one year left or Cam didn't. Beckham isn't more valuable to the Giants than they are or were to their teams and even with the hits they take, there's less likelihood of them being taken out or sent into permanent decline by injury than a WR.
Luck and Cam both signed deals slotted at #1 overall pick $
especially at a QB's salary, I don't think there's much urgency to shred up their current deals.
Cam and Luck were under the current CBA and rookie slotting, so there was no practical reason to touch their deals til one year out -- almost like how there's not much reason to rip Beckham's up now, two years before it's up, with years of franchising if it comes to that, other than fans claiming "he deserves it".
One of the very rare examples to point to that compares is Watt's deal and, when you look at the shape his body may be in, I'd pump the brakes before declaring that as a move that worked out just yet.
We've destroyed Redskins fans for claiming they had championship caliber rosters when they clearly did not.
I'll ask again...
Give me a list of teams you think have better talent foundations than NYG right now.
Give me a list of teams without a glaring weakness somewhere.
I'll wait.
Keep waiting. Power rankings don't interest me.
I'm not asking you for power rankings.
I'm asking you which teams don't have flaws or which teams collectively have a better talent pool.
If you think I'm being Redskins fan-esque by thinking NYG has a better roster in place right now than many other teams in the league, it should be easy to tell me I'm wrong and point to teams that are positioned better
Again, I am not claiming NYG have the best roster in football. I am not claiming that they the best team in the NFC.
What I am saying is that it's ridiculous for a poster to claim that we should trade Beckham because there are "too many holes" on this team right now and we're not a contender.
If someone can definitively say that, I'd like to know which teams don't have as many holes as we do. I think it's fair to ask.
There was never a question that a deal was going to get done because teams don't let Quarterbacks they are sold on leave town. Luck didn't get an extension done until the last year of his rookie deal, but we also should probably recall that Luck had considerably more money coming his way even on his rookie deal. He had $15 million dollars guaranteed before he ever threw a pass, in addition to playing a generally safer position. It would've been pretty hard to defend if he had held out early to try to get a deal done.
Decided to do some digging and find prior examples of top-level players holding out and what the result was.
Emmitt Smith, drafted 1991, held out for the start of his fourth year, including all of training camp and 2 regular season games before Jerry caved in and made him the highest paid runningback in the NFL.
Eric Dickerson, one of the greatest players of all time, held out after two years. Of course in thatera the franchise just laughed at him. But it resulted in him eventually getting traded.
Hines Ward held out in '05 after 4 years, especially relevant as it's the Steelers. Team played hardball after 4 great seasons, Ward held out. Other players went public in support of ward, and he got his deal just before week 1.
Same franchise that paid Brown. Also the same franchise that shared the same conservative tendencies toward valuing players as the Giants.
One could certainly argue that paying non-QB position players a lot of money is too big of a risk, but that's the sport we're watching. It's the most violent team sport in the world. We know the average career length is 3-4 years. If you're trying to avoid risk, you wouldn't sign any player to a long term deal. Risk comes with the territory.
What it comes down to more than managing risk, is that ultimately, teams and fans don't really have an interest in paying ANY player. Even Jerry Rice had to hold out to be fairly paid for his value.
You trade him out of the division and hopefully conference too.
Why? His stock will never be higher and the Giants will land a top #1 pick to go along with their other #1 pick.
Why are we going to pay him a HUGE contract, the highest paid WR in the game when the person throwing to him is either an un-proven QB ( who very possibly won't come close to Eli's production) or a string of moderate QB's that could take the length of his contract to eventually be supplemented by their next franchise QB.
There are too many quality players on D that will soon want to get paid huge money ( Collins for sure) and our O line is still shit.
Keep in mind that Jones and Brown have never won a SB and Pittsburgh has one of the top RB's in Bell and BR to boot.
I would rather trade him and recover a premium draft pic to help build both lines while eventually replacing him with a WR that will never duplicate his potential/production but will do his job well enough in combination with the much, much improved help in the trenches.
OBJ will not win a SB with this team given the state of those around him. Way to many upgrades needed.
yes. 1 of the best players in football, entering his prime, should be traded for the false hope of a draft pick. Brilliant.
Build both lines? The Giants currently have 3/4 of their DL comprised of some of the best players at their respective positions and just landed Hankins 2.0 in the draft. Most teams would kill for this DL.
OL? Great. Let's trade someone who can score from anywhere for a quality tackle prospect who might be good... then we have an old Marshall, Shepard, and nothing ... but at least Eli's heir apparent will have time to realize no ones open.
RE: Quarterbacks are somewhat of a different animal
There was never a question that a deal was going to get done because teams don't let Quarterbacks they are sold on leave town. Luck didn't get an extension done until the last year of his rookie deal, but we also should probably recall that Luck had considerably more money coming his way even on his rookie deal. He had $15 million dollars guaranteed before he ever threw a pass, in addition to playing a generally safer position. It would've been pretty hard to defend if he had held out early to try to get a deal done.
Decided to do some digging and find prior examples of top-level players holding out and what the result was.
Emmitt Smith, drafted 1991, held out for the start of his fourth year, including all of training camp and 2 regular season games before Jerry caved in and made him the highest paid runningback in the NFL.
Eric Dickerson, one of the greatest players of all time, held out after two years. Of course in thatera the franchise just laughed at him. But it resulted in him eventually getting traded.
Hines Ward held out in '05 after 4 years, especially relevant as it's the Steelers. Team played hardball after 4 great seasons, Ward held out. Other players went public in support of ward, and he got his deal just before week 1.
Same franchise that paid Brown. Also the same franchise that shared the same conservative tendencies toward valuing players as the Giants.
One could certainly argue that paying non-QB position players a lot of money is too big of a risk, but that's the sport we're watching. It's the most violent team sport in the world. We know the average career length is 3-4 years. If you're trying to avoid risk, you wouldn't sign any player to a long term deal. Risk comes with the territory.
What it comes down to more than managing risk, is that ultimately, teams and fans don't really have an interest in paying ANY player. Even Jerry Rice had to hold out to be fairly paid for his value.
Beckham has over 8M guaranteed left over these next two, thanks to them picking up his fifth year option. His situation is what it is because of the current CBA his union agreed to and where he was drafted/positional averages.
I've never had a problem with players doing what they can to get the best deals for themselves or with a team paying a great player big money when the time comes to either. I root for the unform at the end of the day though and, no matter how much some cry "he deserves it", a team locking in to paying anyone monster money before they have to rarely is wise and the way teams largely do their business, league wide, backs it up.
Are neglecting to acknowledge Beckham's impact on games. You can argue Julio/Brown/Beckham all day but no receiver in the league impacts games the way he does. He's a threat to take it to the house every time he touches the ball, and outstanding plays by him directly led to several wins last year (Baltimore, Dallas second game off the top of my head).
This game is about matchups and impact players -- you don't get rid of guys like Beckham.
You picked up his option, he doesn't' like it, fuck him. The sooner he's not wearing blue the better, he's not going to win a fucking thing in his career.
You picked up his option, he doesn't' like it, fuck him. The sooner he's not wearing blue the better, he's not going to win a fucking thing in his career.
That's some groundbreaking analysis. What do you have besides platitudes here?
You picked up his option, he doesn't' like it, fuck him. The sooner he's not wearing blue the better, he's not going to win a fucking thing in his career.
Too ambiguous. Get off the fence and take a position...
When Odell turned in, by far, the best 3 years to start a receiver's career?
All else being equal, Beckham would probably get more; but there are too many differences - most notably, how far he is from free agency. Julio Jones and A.J. Green are probably better comps, although I think both deals were signed two years ago, so the numbers have to be adjusted upward - if only for a higher cap.
Coming back to the basic question of whether to pay Beckham top dollar, it depends on how long you make him wait for it. A new contract now would have to reflect a discount for the transfer of 2017-2018 injury risk from the player to the team. How important is that factor? Ask Hakeem Nicks and Steve Smith - or, on the other side of the coin, Victor Cruz.
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There is no reason to give him anything right now.
Just like I support a player's right to do everything in their power to get the best deal for themselves they can, I support the team I root for doing what's in its best interest and giving out long term deals with historic for the position guaranteed cash before it has to isn't that.
He can be unhappy about his current deal, but oh well. If he stays healthy, he'll get his in a year or two when it's time for it. He can thank his union for the CBA nuking rookie deals to the extent they were.
If he does stay healthy and continue on this pace, he'll be even more expensive than it would be if you did it now. This isn't a one-sided situation. There are things to consider on both sides.
What player have the Giants given a deal to two years before their current contract was up to? How many players in general, across the league, get the last two years of their rookie deals torn up these days?
The Giants also have the franchise tag available to them, which gives them control over his rights until 2021 if they want to use it.
Fear of contract escalation is small potatoes, given the type of guaranteed money he's going to be after.
If Odell gets hurt early in his contract, we rebuild. Eli goes, and we bottom out a bit. Such is the risk you run. It is better than planning for mediocrity.
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When did this place turn into a Redskins board?
When Odell turned in, by far, the best 3 years to start a receiver's career?
OK...if he keeps this level up for another 10 years then we can start talking about a comparison to Jerry Rice. Until then they aren't in the same universe. Rice put up 9 or 10 seasons that are the statistical equal or better than anything Beckham's done to this point, and in an era that was much less pass happy than today. Let's just be happy with Beckham being one of the top 3 WRs currently in the NFL. Jerry Rice is a decade away at least.
And I'll make the same point here that I made yesterday in a different thread. Between 2012-2014 Dez Bryant put together three years that equaled Beckham's three years thus far...and no one around here was calling Dez Bryant the next Jerry Rice.
And no one is calling him that now, that's for damn sure. There is no rule stating that Beckham's (or anyone else's) career trajectory has to continue along a consistent positive trajectory. If there were such a rule we'd still be watching Eli throw to Steve Smith, Hakeem Nicks, Mario Manningham, and Victor Cruz.
What are we disciplining him for exactly? Dude needs to grow up, but it sounds like you just want to punish him to prove a point. These are people. Not dogs.
Secondly, if we pay him an 8 figure salary, what do you think happens to those game checks? You can suspend him if he does something that warrants it, missing those larger checks still hurts you in the pockets. This place is absurd. I can't wait to get a deal done to see the hysterics and nasty comments come out.
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when he has an 8 figure guarantee?
What are we disciplining him for exactly? Dude needs to grow up, but it sounds like you just want to punish him to prove a point. These are people. Not dogs.
Secondly, if we pay him an 8 figure salary, what do you think happens to those game checks? You can suspend him if he does something that warrants it, missing those larger checks still hurts you in the pockets. This place is absurd. I can't wait to get a deal done to see the hysterics and nasty comments come out.
1. That time he lost his mind and started spearing Josh Norman and fighting every down.
2. That time as a rookie he incited a fracas with the Rams.
3. Shouting at fans in the stand at Vikings Stadium.
4. Same game- contacting an official when he was begging for a call and getting a 15 yard penalty, then again spearing a player (Xaview Rhodes).
Those are just off the top of my head.
Coming back to the basic question of whether to pay Beckham top dollar, it depends on how long you make him wait for it. A new contract now would have to reflect a discount for the transfer of 2017-2018 injury risk from the player to the team. How important is that factor? Ask Hakeem Nicks and Steve Smith - or, on the other side of the coin, Victor Cruz.
Good post.
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In comment 13493924 Victor in CT said:
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when he has an 8 figure guarantee?
What are we disciplining him for exactly? Dude needs to grow up, but it sounds like you just want to punish him to prove a point. These are people. Not dogs.
Secondly, if we pay him an 8 figure salary, what do you think happens to those game checks? You can suspend him if he does something that warrants it, missing those larger checks still hurts you in the pockets. This place is absurd. I can't wait to get a deal done to see the hysterics and nasty comments come out.
1. That time he lost his mind and started spearing Josh Norman and fighting every down.
2. That time as a rookie he incited a fracas with the Rams.
3. Shouting at fans in the stand at Vikings Stadium.
4. Same game- contacting an official when he was begging for a call and getting a 15 yard penalty, then again spearing a player (Xaview Rhodes).
Those are just off the top of my head.
1) He served a suspension and fine for the Norman thing.
2) Rams were trying to play dirty, that fracas started because he bounced back up, and Damontre Moore did Damontre Moore things
3) I watched that game at a local bar, so I probably missed that occurrence.
4) I specifically recall him getting hit when he was already out of bounds, begging for the call, and accidentally bumped the ref. Ensuing play he got a taunting penalty.
I'm not saying he's above criticism, but we kind of pick things apart to the point of not appreciating a special talent for what it is. I don't know what the obsession is to punish OBJ, seems like many incidents started because officials were looking the other way on obvious dirty plays. He needs to grow up, but he's also learning with a target on his back, which is part of the territory for superstar players. He just has to prove some of those things in the past don't get in his head anymore, and I think he's at least taking the measures to do that.
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In comment 13494020 Devon said:
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There is no reason to give him anything right now.
Just like I support a player's right to do everything in their power to get the best deal for themselves they can, I support the team I root for doing what's in its best interest and giving out long term deals with historic for the position guaranteed cash before it has to isn't that.
He can be unhappy about his current deal, but oh well. If he stays healthy, he'll get his in a year or two when it's time for it. He can thank his union for the CBA nuking rookie deals to the extent they were.
If he does stay healthy and continue on this pace, he'll be even more expensive than it would be if you did it now. This isn't a one-sided situation. There are things to consider on both sides.
What player have the Giants given a deal to two years before their current contract was up to? How many players in general, across the league, get the last two years of their rookie deals torn up these days?
Not many. Just the great ones. Which applies here. Some examples would include JJ Watt and, as mentioned, Brown.
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attached is a reminder of the player we're discussing. sometimes even I forget how special he is. it is a privilege to watch him play the sport - even if you don't necessarily "like" him.
he deserves to be the highest paid non-QB in the league, as he is a 1 man wrecking crew capable of scoring as soon as he touches the ball. ODB Career Highlights - ( New Window )
How many of those plays happened in games the Giants lost? The biggest plays of the 2007 and 2012 Superbowls happens were made by WR's who were average at best. (Big credit goes to Eli)
This offense would've been the worst in football without Odell . Plaxico and Steve Smith weren't mediocre in 07. Nicks Manningham Cruz was an excelent WR trio.
Great points all around.
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In comment 13494048 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 13494020 Devon said:
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There is no reason to give him anything right now.
Just like I support a player's right to do everything in their power to get the best deal for themselves they can, I support the team I root for doing what's in its best interest and giving out long term deals with historic for the position guaranteed cash before it has to isn't that.
He can be unhappy about his current deal, but oh well. If he stays healthy, he'll get his in a year or two when it's time for it. He can thank his union for the CBA nuking rookie deals to the extent they were.
If he does stay healthy and continue on this pace, he'll be even more expensive than it would be if you did it now. This isn't a one-sided situation. There are things to consider on both sides.
What player have the Giants given a deal to two years before their current contract was up to? How many players in general, across the league, get the last two years of their rookie deals torn up these days?
Not many. Just the great ones. Which applies here. Some examples would include JJ Watt and, as mentioned, Brown.
Neither of which were Giants and Brown only had one year torn up, not two. Watt also now is currently dealing with major injury problems and Houston still owes him a ton money going forward.
Why? His stock will never be higher and the Giants will land a top #1 pick to go along with their other #1 pick.
Why are we going to pay him a HUGE contract, the highest paid WR in the game when the person throwing to him is either an un-proven QB ( who very possibly won't come close to Eli's production) or a string of moderate QB's that could take the length of his contract to eventually be supplemented by their next franchise QB.
There are too many quality players on D that will soon want to get paid huge money ( Collins for sure) and our O line is still shit.
Keep in mind that Jones and Brown have never won a SB and Pittsburgh has one of the top RB's in Bell and BR to boot.
I would rather trade him and recover a premium draft pic to help build both lines while eventually replacing him with a WR that will never duplicate his potential/production but will do his job well enough in combination with the much, much improved help in the trenches.
OBJ will not win a SB with this team given the state of those around him. Way to many upgrades needed.
Why? His stock will never be higher and the Giants will land a top #1 pick to go along with their other #1 pick.
Why are we going to pay him a HUGE contract, the highest paid WR in the game when the person throwing to him is either an un-proven QB ( who very possibly won't come close to Eli's production) or a string of moderate QB's that could take the length of his contract to eventually be supplemented by their next franchise QB.
There are too many quality players on D that will soon want to get paid huge money ( Collins for sure) and our O line is still shit.
Keep in mind that Jones and Brown have never won a SB and Pittsburgh has one of the top RB's in Bell and BR to boot.
I would rather trade him and recover a premium draft pic to help build both lines while eventually replacing him with a WR that will never duplicate his potential/production but will do his job well enough in combination with the much, much improved help in the trenches.
OBJ will not win a SB with this team given the state of those around him. Way to many upgrades needed.
Wait... what?
OBJ will not win a SB with this team given the state of those around him. Way to many upgrades needed.
How many NFL teams have better rosters than NYG right now? I don't think anyone could honestly name 5.
The Giants have one of the most balanced rosters in the NFL right now. Very few holes. You want to point to the OL? Fine.. every team has a weakness. You can't find me one NFL team without one.
Secondly...
Keep in mind that Jones and Brown have never won a SB and Pittsburgh has one of the top RB's in Bell and BR to boot.
This is a bit disingenuous as A) Jones JUST played in, and should have won one this past February if not for mind-bogglingly bad play-calling and a borderline miracle catch by Edelman.
and B) Brown played in one his rookie year - PIT lost by one score to a red hot Aaron Rodgers.
So, your point there pretty much rings hollow as both Jones and Brown have been part of championship caliber teams.
If you want to point out that Brown was a rookie and was making rookie money in 2010, okay. That was not the case for Jones last year and ATL never even gets to the SB without him. Full stop.
The first question I asked was about the Giants, then made a general ask about around the league.
You replied with no Giants (because they largely don't operate this way, with anyone -- each time even Eli got his much "safer" QB deals, it was with one year left) and two players, one of which got the typical for the league one year left treatment and wasn't applicable anyway and another that started to get hit with major injuries right about when his first deal would have been up.
I get that fans are attached to a great talent, but it's simply not common NFL business to rip up two years on rookie deals. It very, very rarely is a good idea, given the way things can change in an instant in this league.
Terrell Owens nearly won the Eagles a SB and the Cowboys were at their most recent best with him catching passes from Romo.
If you need players to be likeable to be on your team, good guys, you won't be able to build a 53 man roster or even starting lineup, never mind field a decently competitive squad.
Complaints that you dont want a diva star WR? Can I suggest you just follow another sport?
I'd love to go back to late 2014 and read the opinions on Beckham from that point in time on this board.
I bet you couldn't find one negative comment on the guy from that time period. 99% of this board and almost every single Giant fan was waxing poetic about how exciting and how incredible a talent he was.
It's amazing how many people have completely changed their tune on him, especially when you consider how petty the reasons are. And his play has not declined one bit.
If I said in December of 2014 or January of 2015 that Odell Beckham would continue to play at the level he displayed as a rookie and that a large contingent of the Giants fan base would want to get rid of him by 2017 without him ever having been in any sort of legal trouble, no one would have ever believed it.
But, here we are....
I think the team is pretty good, but it's still awfully thin on both lines.
No, I'm not saying NYG are the best team in the league.
But, as of now? Roster-wise? How many teams have a better WR trio than Beckham/Marshall/Shepard? How many have a better trio of corners than Jenkins/DRC/Apple? How many have a better safety than Collins? A better pair of DE's than Vernon/JPP? A better DT than Harrison?
Sure, our OL has question marks. We don't have unlimited depth everywhere. Does anyone?
Has he had a suicide attempt, or if you believe him and his media team, a "prescription medication accident"?
Has he earned the ire of the vast majority of his teammates?
Has he had public workout press conferences in his driveway?
Has he feuded with his coaches and QB?
Owens wasn't just a "diva WR", he was arguably mentally unstable. Drawing a line between Owens and Beckham is just lazy hyperbole. Beckham is a generational talent who is on pace to do things that have never been done, and his behavior hasn't even approached that of an Owens, a Randy Moss, or a Chad Johnson. People need to get real and find some perspective on what they're complaining about.
It's a passing league, wake up people.
Doing a power ranking of rosters is the kind of thing we used to destroy the Redskins fans for.
We've destroyed Redskins fans for claiming they had championship caliber rosters when they clearly did not.
I'll ask again...
Give me a list of teams you think have better talent foundations than NYG right now.
Give me a list of teams without a glaring weakness somewhere.
I'll wait.
Richburg played injured all season and was a shell of himself. Pugh missed 4-5 games, and Rashad Jennings may have been one of the worst starting RB's in football. The guy had holes to run through and ran right into someone's back instead.
The run game picked up when Perkins started getting more carries.
This is mostly the same line that Eli had a career year under in 2015. Eli needs to be better than he was in 2016.
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The Giants haven't had a great player to do this for. So I'm not sure that taking the precedent that they haven't done it to this point means much. We are not talking about a typical player who had one big year. The best player the Giants have had to worry about paying was Cruz, and he wasn't a kid with a hall of fame pace three year run of all-pro level production. The standard doesn't apply. Even JPP before the fireworks wasn't this type of player.
The first question I asked was about the Giants, then made a general ask about around the league.
You replied with no Giants (because they largely don't operate this way, with anyone -- each time even Eli got his much "safer" QB deals, it was with one year left) and two players, one of which got the typical for the league one year left treatment and wasn't applicable anyway and another that started to get hit with major injuries right about when his first deal would have been up.
I get that fans are attached to a great talent, but it's simply not common NFL business to rip up two years on rookie deals. It very, very rarely is a good idea, given the way things can change in an instant in this league.
But, again, the last time the Giants were in something close to this situation, it was Strahan. And even then it doesn't really fit the profile. I wouldn't use Eli as an example, since Eli Manning's first three years don't hold a candle to what we're seeing Beckham do. There were legitimate questions about Eli Manning's future as a starting player right up until like week 8 of year 3.
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In comment 13494184 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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The Giants haven't had a great player to do this for. So I'm not sure that taking the precedent that they haven't done it to this point means much. We are not talking about a typical player who had one big year. The best player the Giants have had to worry about paying was Cruz, and he wasn't a kid with a hall of fame pace three year run of all-pro level production. The standard doesn't apply. Even JPP before the fireworks wasn't this type of player.
The first question I asked was about the Giants, then made a general ask about around the league.
You replied with no Giants (because they largely don't operate this way, with anyone -- each time even Eli got his much "safer" QB deals, it was with one year left) and two players, one of which got the typical for the league one year left treatment and wasn't applicable anyway and another that started to get hit with major injuries right about when his first deal would have been up.
I get that fans are attached to a great talent, but it's simply not common NFL business to rip up two years on rookie deals. It very, very rarely is a good idea, given the way things can change in an instant in this league.
But, again, the last time the Giants were in something close to this situation, it was Strahan. And even then it doesn't really fit the profile. I wouldn't use Eli as an example, since Eli Manning's first three years don't hold a candle to what we're seeing Beckham do. There were legitimate questions about Eli Manning's future as a starting player right up until like week 8 of year 3.
I used Manning as a reference because there's generally a lower risk of injury for a QB. If it makes you feel better look outside the team and at how Luck didn't get get extended until he had one year left or Cam didn't. Beckham isn't more valuable to the Giants than they are or were to their teams and even with the hits they take, there's less likelihood of them being taken out or sent into permanent decline by injury than a WR.
We've destroyed Redskins fans for claiming they had championship caliber rosters when they clearly did not.
I'll ask again...
Give me a list of teams you think have better talent foundations than NYG right now.
Give me a list of teams without a glaring weakness somewhere.
I'll wait.
Keep waiting. Power rankings don't interest me.
Cam and Luck were under the current CBA and rookie slotting, so there was no practical reason to touch their deals til one year out -- almost like how there's not much reason to rip Beckham's up now, two years before it's up, with years of franchising if it comes to that, other than fans claiming "he deserves it".
One of the very rare examples to point to that compares is Watt's deal and, when you look at the shape his body may be in, I'd pump the brakes before declaring that as a move that worked out just yet.
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No it's not.
We've destroyed Redskins fans for claiming they had championship caliber rosters when they clearly did not.
I'll ask again...
Give me a list of teams you think have better talent foundations than NYG right now.
Give me a list of teams without a glaring weakness somewhere.
I'll wait.
Keep waiting. Power rankings don't interest me.
I'm not asking you for power rankings.
I'm asking you which teams don't have flaws or which teams collectively have a better talent pool.
If you think I'm being Redskins fan-esque by thinking NYG has a better roster in place right now than many other teams in the league, it should be easy to tell me I'm wrong and point to teams that are positioned better
Again, I am not claiming NYG have the best roster in football. I am not claiming that they the best team in the NFC.
What I am saying is that it's ridiculous for a poster to claim that we should trade Beckham because there are "too many holes" on this team right now and we're not a contender.
If someone can definitively say that, I'd like to know which teams don't have as many holes as we do. I think it's fair to ask.
Decided to do some digging and find prior examples of top-level players holding out and what the result was.
Emmitt Smith, drafted 1991, held out for the start of his fourth year, including all of training camp and 2 regular season games before Jerry caved in and made him the highest paid runningback in the NFL.
Eric Dickerson, one of the greatest players of all time, held out after two years. Of course in thatera the franchise just laughed at him. But it resulted in him eventually getting traded.
Hines Ward held out in '05 after 4 years, especially relevant as it's the Steelers. Team played hardball after 4 great seasons, Ward held out. Other players went public in support of ward, and he got his deal just before week 1.
Same franchise that paid Brown. Also the same franchise that shared the same conservative tendencies toward valuing players as the Giants.
One could certainly argue that paying non-QB position players a lot of money is too big of a risk, but that's the sport we're watching. It's the most violent team sport in the world. We know the average career length is 3-4 years. If you're trying to avoid risk, you wouldn't sign any player to a long term deal. Risk comes with the territory.
What it comes down to more than managing risk, is that ultimately, teams and fans don't really have an interest in paying ANY player. Even Jerry Rice had to hold out to be fairly paid for his value.
Why? His stock will never be higher and the Giants will land a top #1 pick to go along with their other #1 pick.
Why are we going to pay him a HUGE contract, the highest paid WR in the game when the person throwing to him is either an un-proven QB ( who very possibly won't come close to Eli's production) or a string of moderate QB's that could take the length of his contract to eventually be supplemented by their next franchise QB.
There are too many quality players on D that will soon want to get paid huge money ( Collins for sure) and our O line is still shit.
Keep in mind that Jones and Brown have never won a SB and Pittsburgh has one of the top RB's in Bell and BR to boot.
I would rather trade him and recover a premium draft pic to help build both lines while eventually replacing him with a WR that will never duplicate his potential/production but will do his job well enough in combination with the much, much improved help in the trenches.
OBJ will not win a SB with this team given the state of those around him. Way to many upgrades needed.
yes. 1 of the best players in football, entering his prime, should be traded for the false hope of a draft pick. Brilliant.
Build both lines? The Giants currently have 3/4 of their DL comprised of some of the best players at their respective positions and just landed Hankins 2.0 in the draft. Most teams would kill for this DL.
OL? Great. Let's trade someone who can score from anywhere for a quality tackle prospect who might be good... then we have an old Marshall, Shepard, and nothing ... but at least Eli's heir apparent will have time to realize no ones open.
Decided to do some digging and find prior examples of top-level players holding out and what the result was.
Emmitt Smith, drafted 1991, held out for the start of his fourth year, including all of training camp and 2 regular season games before Jerry caved in and made him the highest paid runningback in the NFL.
Eric Dickerson, one of the greatest players of all time, held out after two years. Of course in thatera the franchise just laughed at him. But it resulted in him eventually getting traded.
Hines Ward held out in '05 after 4 years, especially relevant as it's the Steelers. Team played hardball after 4 great seasons, Ward held out. Other players went public in support of ward, and he got his deal just before week 1.
Same franchise that paid Brown. Also the same franchise that shared the same conservative tendencies toward valuing players as the Giants.
One could certainly argue that paying non-QB position players a lot of money is too big of a risk, but that's the sport we're watching. It's the most violent team sport in the world. We know the average career length is 3-4 years. If you're trying to avoid risk, you wouldn't sign any player to a long term deal. Risk comes with the territory.
What it comes down to more than managing risk, is that ultimately, teams and fans don't really have an interest in paying ANY player. Even Jerry Rice had to hold out to be fairly paid for his value.
Beckham has over 8M guaranteed left over these next two, thanks to them picking up his fifth year option. His situation is what it is because of the current CBA his union agreed to and where he was drafted/positional averages.
I've never had a problem with players doing what they can to get the best deals for themselves or with a team paying a great player big money when the time comes to either. I root for the unform at the end of the day though and, no matter how much some cry "he deserves it", a team locking in to paying anyone monster money before they have to rarely is wise and the way teams largely do their business, league wide, backs it up.
This game is about matchups and impact players -- you don't get rid of guys like Beckham.
Meet me today at the @verizon store in #BryantPark! The first 100 customers will get a photo with me @ 5-6:30pm! #BetterMatters
That's some groundbreaking analysis. What do you have besides platitudes here?
Too ambiguous. Get off the fence and take a position...