he could have tried stroking his ego and forced the offense last year and he didn't. That's exactly the kind of coach I want. This offense last year minus Beckham was a bottom 5 unit as far as talent goes; McAdoo wasn't the problem.
The offense in 2015 got inflated because the defense was terrible, hence they were giving up so many points teams were playing more of a prevent.
Last season, with the defense being good, there weren't any easy yards.
The game is different when you are down by 3 scores.
The offense in 2015 got inflated because the defense was terrible, hence they were giving up so many points teams were playing more of a prevent.
Last season, with the defense being good, there weren't any easy yards.
The game is different when you are down by 3 scores.
I did allude to that, I recall some of the hardest TC apologists said that was not the case at all. There were a lot of games whose final scores looked much closer than they were.
RE: RE: It's like some of you think McAdoo didn't know
there was a psychological element involved. In 2015 with Coughlin as HC everyone knew he was very much a meat and potatoes run first coach even with McAdoo as OC. Even if the transition to a post Coughlin era was probably already underway. In 2015 Eli had more weapons to execute a West Coast type offense but the opposition still believed that Coughlin was more committed to a more balanced attack so they did not risk cover two as much. In 2016 McAdoo was known to be a believer in a west coast attack and the Giants were already shifting their personnel policies in this direction (although probably not quick enough in hind sight). Therefor we faced cover two in 2016 which was a perfect defense for 95% of our plays. We won 11 games in 2016 because of the defensive adjustments we made and the few offensive adjustments we tried to make we had bad luck with.
The offense in 2015 got inflated because the defense was terrible, hence they were giving up so many points teams were playing more of a prevent.
Last season, with the defense being good, there weren't any easy yards.
The game is different when you are down by 3 scores.
I did allude to that, I recall some of the hardest TC apologists said that was not the case at all. There were a lot of games whose final scores looked much closer than they were.
I'm not a TC apologist: that wasn't the case and is a simply false claim. I've posted the numbers before and won't bother again, but the Giants played a majority of minutes that year +/- 7. They weren't routinely getting blown out or blowing people out -- hence why they were in position to suffer the absurd number of losses via scores in the final minutes they did.
The prevent defense argument literally only applies to maybe one game (the Carolina failed comeback) and there's even a big maybe on that, given how they missed some chances early when it was tight and then still kept moving the ball/scoring even after the Panthers tightened back up.
The difference between 2015 (or even 2014) and last year was Eli
You can talk about the OL sucking or the pass catchers being no good or the run game being poor, but none of those things were good previously either and the only real key missing piece was Vereen (he mattered, but not top ten to bottom five mattered).
He covered the warts those years; he collapsed under them last when they expected and needed him to not in order to produce similarly offensively.
Is that fully fair, especially with how little credit he gets outside certain Giants bubbles? No, but that's his lot. The OL isn't, realistically, going to be any better this season (sorry, forever optimists). He's got to get his internal clock right somehow and get back to being who he used to be. If he doesn't, none of the claimed improvements around him are going to matter much; the offense is going to flop again.
Seems like there were a few games where we stormed back in the 4th to make the games look much more competitive than we really were. The Panthers game at the end of the season we put up 21 in the 4th. Eli played perfect against the Saints, and it took a 21 point 4th as well to almost steal that game. The 20-14 loss against Washington didn't feel like a one possession game, we put up all our points in the 4th as well. That's 3 games where I think we took advantage of more relaxed defenses to get back in the game or make it look more competitive than it really was. Bottom line about the 2015 teams was that we found new, creative ways to lose.
IIRC. I don't have the FO almanac in front of me to look it all back up.
I get how it could feel differently (especially with how they would come out ice cold the first few minutes of games and out of halves), but, for the NFL standard that season, they played a lot of close football only to fuck it up over and over and over (...) again late.
The entire season was one massive kick in the balls. There was definitely an element of... let's call it, luck to preventing late scores to win as many tight games as well as they did in 2016, but fuck if they weren't owed after that year.
Our starting RB and TE in 2016 are still unemployed. Our starting WR was a late offseason signing by the Bears after everyone else - including Tom Coughlin - passed on him.
The QB didn't play terribly well. The OL was inconsistent at best. We had arguably the worst TE corps in the NFL. Exacerbating that, we had no fullback to compensate. Our running backs were not good.
Less than average Oline. No road graders to push the pile
Nothing more than average or worse running backs
Wide receivers Sterling was "OK" didn't set the world on fire. Not great speed.
Cruz was done. No breakaway speed. Neither of these guys have great size.
Poor TE play.
OBJ was good but didn't show up when it was time to shine.
We were lucky Eli wasn't killed and accomplished what he was able to do. A lot of people knock his season but given the above I think he was pretty special.
This year I think our offense will be better. We have improved the wide receiver and tight end positions.
I expect better play with the addition of Flucker. I think Flowers will show a greater level of maturity. I like his conditioning going into OTA's I am hoping we will see better player out of some of the other guys and maybe the injury bug will stay away from our Oline. Big maybe.
Runners? I will have to wait and see. I'm not sold.
Another concern I have is OBJ. Don't know if his head is in the game. I can see him pouting if he gets off to a bad start.
We will see...
Less than average Oline. No road graders to push the pile
Nothing more than average or worse running backs
Wide receivers Sterling was "OK" didn't set the world on fire. Not great speed.
Cruz was done. No breakaway speed. Neither of these guys have great size.
Poor TE play.
OBJ was good but didn't show up when it was time to shine.
We were lucky Eli wasn't killed and accomplished what he was able to do. A lot of people knock his season but given the above I think he was pretty special.
This year I think our offense will be better. We have improved the wide receiver and tight end positions.
I expect better play with the addition of Flucker. I think Flowers will show a greater level of maturity. I like his conditioning going into OTA's I am hoping we will see better player out of some of the other guys and maybe the injury bug will stay away from our Oline. Big maybe.
Runners? I will have to wait and see. I'm not sold.
Another concern I have is OBJ. Don't know if his head is in the game. I can see him pouting if he gets off to a bad start.
We will see...
Can't disagree.
The only thing I can add is I think our defense maybe better than last year.
as any part of the reason why the offense was so bad last year. He had a terrible showing in Green Bay, but for the most part, he's produced. Where were these opportunities that he blew it "when it really mattered"? The Ravens game is as close to a walkoff HR you'll see in the NFL. He had a clutch play against Dallas that sealed the game. There are warranted concerns about OBJ's maturity, but that's an entirely separate discussion IMO.
Couldn't run the ball. Inability to run the ball is split between the offensive line and the RB core. Everything else is the result of not being able to run the ball.
you double Odell and the Giants offense was in trouble. The Giants should have let Perkins play more they needed more weapon. Sterling is a nice player but lacks speed. He did great but they needed more seeing Cruz and all the TE where bad. Also we had nothing coming out of the backfield that scared anyone. That on top of the fact the defense was extremely good made the Giants more conservative.
it was actually worse than what most people are saying here. If not for a few single efforts by OBJ to score some long TDs (hand full of plays), we possibly would have the worst offense in the league.
I was saying this during last season.. that the Giants were one injury away (OBJ) from having the worst offense in the league. Think about that for a minute. What other team could lose a player on their offense OTHER THAN their QB and what is left is so bad that it cannot even compete in the NFL.
Eli nervous back there, agree Cruz not vintage Cruz, TEs not good.
I dont blame the personnel/scheme. Mac's scheme makes good sense. I hope they dont go too crazy with new formations trying to show different looks. The personnel they ran can be great with a decent run game, a good 2 way TE, and the new weapons they have now. Perk can be a great 3 down back, not tipping the D as to what is coming like they would if they picked up Blount. Adding Engram is like another wide out. Bye-bye 2016. 17's gonna be nasty.
100 repsonses and everything is discussed from a fullback, TE's, rb, Cruz even a bad defense the YEAR before.
And not a word about Mc.
I'm not sure of anything but seems to me he should be in the discussion.
We went from the maligned Randall to the revered Shep, From Harris to Cruz , Tye, Hart and Flowers entering their second year of anticipated great growth and we get remarkably Worse.
And if you want to talk defense, this defense should have helped the offense, not hurt it...as seems the logical conclusion of some of these posts.
Insecurity is holding onto the clipboard. And confidence is essential to good coaching.
The man got a pass on the boat incident too. He had to turn tradiition on its ear and gave permission for OBJ and company not to return with their teammates.
To me, another sign of bad leadership and an attempt to be "popular". Always players that went out together came home together - sometimes to get on another plane and go bavk to the city they had just played in.
All the writers, players and management team seem to like and respect Mac. So it's fair to say that this casual fan doesn't know what he's talking about. But the clipboard as a sign of lack of leadership, and lack of the confidence and strength to delegate has to stand as a statement.
You can not hold the ckipboard, call the plays, sets, personnell and formations and fulfill the functions of a head coach.
PERIOD!!
The boat incident is a non incidence if he denies permission, which he should have. It wasn't Cruz's job to protect them against themselves, it was the Head Coach's....... "I'm sorry, Giant tradition says we go home together, once home you're free to do whatever you want on your day off." ..." But don't do anything stupid and call attention to yourselves"
Can't be proven, but maybe that simple directive gets us to the superbowl. And all the cries of "lack of personnel" is buloney anyway.
Maybe five all pros on the defense alone. Three superb corners, an all world safety, a great front four, much underrated Line backers, A superbowl QB and perhaps the greatest offensive threat in the game.
This is a flawed league, Atlanta with a bad defense, Green Bay uneven and flawed, Dallas completely one dimensional.
I think we had as good a group as anyone. I think the offense under-performed and with my dying breath I'll believe that the simple device of holding onto the clipboard spoke volumes...about character, leadership, proper delegation of authority and more.
We lost Geoff Schwartz, who played very well and replaced him with Jerry. Newhouse got hurt and was replaced with Hart who was actually a weaker pass protector.
Randle to Cruz created a loss of diversification in the route tree.
No FB (loss of Johnson and Whitlock) meant that we could not run any plays which required a lead blocker, making the offense more predictable.
Loss of Fells and no blocking TE replacement. Adams was supposed to be that guy, but he had a rookie learning curve.
Jennings hit the RB wall.
Plus, the defense was so much better so that we were more conservative in the passing game so as to avoid costly turnovers.
All of these things caused the offense to be weaker, not stronger. The only real upgrade was Randle to Cruz, but it had a negative effect because Cruz was out of position and we no longer had a big WR target.
then ranted about schematics post draft, to use the players we do have - better.
Posted specifics in both cases.
This time of year its fun to see what the actual team comes up with, more '12' run some '13' outside zone runs, play action, new faces at DT opening up the interior, the '12'.
TE/Pugh/Flowers[Richburg]Hart\Biz\TE
Nice young line to build around, get excited for themselves, grow as players, move the tackles in space.
outside zone runs left with perkins, play action right, drag route.
The offense wasn't bad at all through the first 3 games. It was looking pretty good actually. Then the giants ran into two tough rough games where things got ugly. They also lost vereen around this time. Then they lost Pugh. Then the world figured out that everyone else on offense not named Beckham was terrible and Shepard was a good but limited rookie who won't take the top off a defense. Add it all up and you have a shaky offense that basically scored a few much needed pts only when necessary.
Forget what you think you saw or didn't see last year. Look at what you definitely saw this offseason. Two new expensive TEs. One new expensive WR. One more RB and the hurt guy coming back. That's a lot of turnover. There's a reason why. The players weren't any good.
for the "NEW HEAD COACH", he Will improve this year.
His offense was horrible and so was his play calling.
He started a washed up receiver that should have been cut.
I suspect that with the improvement of the draft and a years learning curve, the OFFENSE will be much more efficient.
The play calling had a lot to do with, too runs up the middle putting
the Giants in 2nd and 9, then similar plays on 2nd down putting the Giants in 3rd and long and allowing defenses to blitz. If they can run the ball better the play action passes that Eli excels at will work more often.
personnel should have been better with yearly whipping boy Randle gone and Perkins back plus addition of Shepard (I don't see anyone here lamenting the loss of Parker) and Perkins.
New HC who was also calling plays. Either it was too much for him as a new guy to follow his idol McCarthy or there was too much "Someday when I'm a head coach, I'm going to . . ." that didn't work.
Either way, let's hope with a year under his belt, he can get the offense moving.
Coaching. While I agree there was a pronounced lack of NFL talent at the TE, RB and X-WR spots, no team in the NFL has great talent at every position. Back when we would debate Perry Fewells pathetic results as D-Co, the arguement was always that he didn't have any talented players. There was some truth to that but not enough, in my opinion, to explain away all the bad results. I see the same argument, and offer the same countervailing argument being applied to Ben McAdoos pathetic offense. (Is it fair to hang the offense on Ben? I think so, yes). If the offense was 10th or 15th in rushing or passing or even overall, you might just explain it away by saying the personnel wasn't up to par. But McAdoos offense was among the bottom three in the entire NFL. And while we didn't have a good TE, while Jennings and Cruz were probably done and Flowers almost got Eli killed in most every game, there was some talent on the field. Shep is a legit slot WR, there is some talent on the line with Richburg, Pough and yes, Jerry had a good season. All Pros? Well no, but these guys were legit NFL players. And, Elis a franchise QB. Most teams in the bottom of the league's offense don't have a legit starting QB. And we have all world game breaker in OBJ. So the talent, I would argue was probably, on balance, middle of the pack.
I've made much here about the absurd overuse of 11 personnel packages. No other team in the NFL is even close to McAdoos 95% use of a single personnel set. As far as I know, this single personnel set idea hasn't been done in the 4 decades I've been watching pro football. Is McAdoo on to some sort of brilliant new idea here? Well, if he is, there's little evidence in the pathetic results we all witnessed last season. Far more likely is that McAdoo didn't think the sets were a problem, or he thought couldn't scheme anything else with the personnel he had. Either explaination worries me because McAdoo is supposed to be some kind of offensive genius.
I've seen some here argue that the Giants personnel doesn't "fit" McAdoos concepts. "Aaron Rodgers could run 11 personnel every play and win". Ah, yeah, I could be Aaron Rodgers O-Co and he'd still win. There can be no surer sign of a poor coach than one who can't adapt their scheme or concepts based on the talent on the roster. I'm not ready to jettison McAdoo, he showed much promise in being well prepared, able to handle a few lousy situations like the wife beater JR signed and OBJs silly kicking net shananigans, he was a mostly good game manager (though there were a few head scratchers during the season).
not all of it but he definitely had his share. I think he allowed the lack of good blocking and a weak run game to adversely effect his own contribution to the play being run. Sure you need blocking to run and throw but it looked to me that Eli expected bad execution and gave up on too many plays before they failed.
RE: It's like some of you think McAdoo didn't know
Much of the success in 2015 was the result of us being behind imo. It was a hot and cold offense. We got hot when we were behind. The same problems in 2015 showed up in 2016. It looked worse because the games were tight and the opposing D was playing us different. Last year we never addressed the #2 WR, to go into the season with no #2 was a mistake and last year our #2 was worse that 2015.
OL was bad in 2015 and was not addressed in the offseason last year. OL was not really addressed this year either, not in any proven way. We did address TE and #2 WR so that should help. Is Perkins the answer at RB? Probably better than Jenkins was last year so maybe the RB position is slightly better. It comes down to the OL. If Flowers improves that will make the whole OL better. You have Flowers, Pugh & Richburg who should all be better, Jerry is Jerry. Hopefully Fluker can unseat Jerry which then would be an upgrade. What we have at RT is anyone's guess.
I think the biggest offseason move is going to be Brandon Marshall. Even though he is coming off a terrible season I think he will open things up. He had nothing going for him last season. Simply having OBJ and Eli will make him a beast again imo. #2 WR was our biggest hole last year and now its filled.
Back when we would debate Perry Fewells pathetic results as D-Co, the arguement was always that he didn't have any talented players. There was some truth to that but not enough, in my opinion, to explain away all the bad results
Much of it was masked by the fact that they were still able to manage bursts of scoring game to game that made the end-season numbers look better than what they really were.
The biggest tell was in those games where the defense blew a lead or couldn't make stops late in the game. The Giants lost most those games because the offense was incompetent in the 4th quarter - they couldn't score or maintain drives.
McAdoo has a lot of work to do this off-season to get this fixed, there's some serious deep bedded issues with the offense that goes well beyond personnel.
Much of it was masked by the fact that they were still able to manage bursts of scoring game to game that made the end-season numbers look better than what they really were.
The biggest tell was in those games where the defense blew a lead or couldn't make stops late in the game. The Giants lost most those games because the offense was incompetent in the 4th quarter - they couldn't score or maintain drives.
McAdoo has a lot of work to do this off-season to get this fixed, there's some serious deep bedded issues with the offense that goes well beyond personnel.
The Giants were one of the best fourth quarter offenses in 2015.
Their problems came largely in the first few minutes of the first and third quarters -- usually, when broken down, when they would try to make running the ball happen.
personnel should have been better with yearly whipping boy Randle gone and Perkins back plus addition of Shepard (I don't see anyone here lamenting the loss of Parker) and Perkins.
New HC who was also calling plays. Either it was too much for him as a new guy to follow his idol McCarthy or there was too much "Someday when I'm a head coach, I'm going to . . ." that didn't work.
Either way, let's hope with a year under his belt, he can get the offense moving.
So the same guy calling plays in 2014-15 all of a sudden was overwhelmed last year? Aint buying it. The team played with a necessary edge most of the entire season. They expanded the right amount of energy and poise at just the right time. They played to their strengths. They didn't make critical mistakes. They lost MAYBE one game they had no business losing. But the HC was overwhelmed with the same duties he handled prior.
Vereen was healthy in 2015. Not that he's a great player but he filled a huge hole adequately. Jennings was better in 2015. I also think it's fair to speculate that defenses did a poorer job of eliminating BEckham's big play. Also, the TEs and FBs were slightly better if not yet exposed as blatantly. They also didn't lose Pugh for 2 months. Without looking i'd also bet the Giants defensive opposition in 2015 was probably a bit easier. And they played more wide open from behind type action.
Why does it have to fall on McAdoo's play calling? What secret game plan was going to save the offense last year? What player? It was Beckham and Shepard and pray for most of the first 10 games. The running game took two months to even approach respectable once Vereen went down.
PLay calling is likely to be the least of our worries. McAdoo took what was given last year and put the best players on the field. He also seemed to be 95% in the right when going for it on 4th down.
Much of it was masked by the fact that they were still able to manage bursts of scoring game to game that made the end-season numbers look better than what they really were.
The biggest tell was in those games where the defense blew a lead or couldn't make stops late in the game. The Giants lost most those games because the offense was incompetent in the 4th quarter - they couldn't score or maintain drives.
McAdoo has a lot of work to do this off-season to get this fixed, there's some serious deep bedded issues with the offense that goes well beyond personnel.
Exactly. The 2014-2015 offenses are widely overrated. Can we move on already from these so called good old days? those offenses didn't close jack shit. Think back to 2015 week 1. Instead of figuring it out and winning the game the offense literally choked on its own set of balls--Eli included. Fast forward one year and the offense dis just enough to win. It afforded the D a chance to win by gaining two first downs on that last drive.
14-15 are fucking history. 11 combined people. 11. I don't care how bad the D was, the O played a part. I don't care how BAD the O was last year, they played in a part in a winning season. The offense took steps forward last year. Give it another go this season with talent all over the place before you worry about McAdoo.
the stats may show that the NYG 2015 offense was good but they had more than one or two chances to win games in the 4th and they failed. Those offenses weren't good at anything other than hitting the Beckham HR ball. Sprinkle in a decent Jennings/Vereen performance and that was it.
Last year the Giants put up less but they came out of the year with a long term solution at slot WR and rotation 20 touch RB. Now we have FA/Draft additions. There's a ton more to work with now compared to last year at this time. Let's see it unfold.
No, the 2016 offense wasn't good at anything other than a big play
to Beckham here and there. 2015 actually involved some success to others, to some extent, even if the defensive fuckery was too much for them to overcome.
I don't even know where to start with a claim that the offense actually took steps forward in 2016. I just don't.
what happened in 2014-2015 and look at last year as the start of something new everything takes on a different look.
I am not saying last year was a good or even average offense. I am saying to forget about 2015. One has nothing to do with the other. Different players. Different games. Different records.
and there are a few instances that I can point out from last year
They came out in the same formation 90%+ of the time.
They didnt take any shots down the field.
They came out throwing on 1st down, and running on 2nd down. almost always forcing them to throw on 3rd down(usually long).
A dink and dunk offense doesnt work.
Cruz was out of position.
They did not have any tall receivers.
The play calling was just dreadful.
No fullback.
No tight end.
Last season, with the defense being good, there weren't any easy yards.
The game is different when you are down by 3 scores.
We used the same personnel group, not formation.
Last season, with the defense being good, there weren't any easy yards.
The game is different when you are down by 3 scores.
I did allude to that, I recall some of the hardest TC apologists said that was not the case at all. There were a lot of games whose final scores looked much closer than they were.
Quote:
he used the same formation so much. Glad we have such smart fans.
We used the same personnel group, not formation.
Correct, everyone knew what we were going to do. Why we not only drafted a TE but got one in FA. Why we brought in some FB prospects.
A lot more packages to throw out there.
Quote:
The offense in 2015 got inflated because the defense was terrible, hence they were giving up so many points teams were playing more of a prevent.
Last season, with the defense being good, there weren't any easy yards.
The game is different when you are down by 3 scores.
I did allude to that, I recall some of the hardest TC apologists said that was not the case at all. There were a lot of games whose final scores looked much closer than they were.
I'm not a TC apologist: that wasn't the case and is a simply false claim. I've posted the numbers before and won't bother again, but the Giants played a majority of minutes that year +/- 7. They weren't routinely getting blown out or blowing people out -- hence why they were in position to suffer the absurd number of losses via scores in the final minutes they did.
The prevent defense argument literally only applies to maybe one game (the Carolina failed comeback) and there's even a big maybe on that, given how they missed some chances early when it was tight and then still kept moving the ball/scoring even after the Panthers tightened back up.
You can talk about the OL sucking or the pass catchers being no good or the run game being poor, but none of those things were good previously either and the only real key missing piece was Vereen (he mattered, but not top ten to bottom five mattered).
He covered the warts those years; he collapsed under them last when they expected and needed him to not in order to produce similarly offensively.
Is that fully fair, especially with how little credit he gets outside certain Giants bubbles? No, but that's his lot. The OL isn't, realistically, going to be any better this season (sorry, forever optimists). He's got to get his internal clock right somehow and get back to being who he used to be. If he doesn't, none of the claimed improvements around him are going to matter much; the offense is going to flop again.
I get how it could feel differently (especially with how they would come out ice cold the first few minutes of games and out of halves), but, for the NFL standard that season, they played a lot of close football only to fuck it up over and over and over (...) again late.
The entire season was one massive kick in the balls. There was definitely an element of... let's call it, luck to preventing late scores to win as many tight games as well as they did in 2016, but fuck if they weren't owed after that year.
The QB didn't play terribly well. The OL was inconsistent at best. We had arguably the worst TE corps in the NFL. Exacerbating that, we had no fullback to compensate. Our running backs were not good.
2015 was probably the aberration.
Nothing more than average or worse running backs
Wide receivers Sterling was "OK" didn't set the world on fire. Not great speed.
Cruz was done. No breakaway speed. Neither of these guys have great size.
Poor TE play.
OBJ was good but didn't show up when it was time to shine.
We were lucky Eli wasn't killed and accomplished what he was able to do. A lot of people knock his season but given the above I think he was pretty special.
This year I think our offense will be better. We have improved the wide receiver and tight end positions.
I expect better play with the addition of Flucker. I think Flowers will show a greater level of maturity. I like his conditioning going into OTA's I am hoping we will see better player out of some of the other guys and maybe the injury bug will stay away from our Oline. Big maybe.
Runners? I will have to wait and see. I'm not sold.
Another concern I have is OBJ. Don't know if his head is in the game. I can see him pouting if he gets off to a bad start.
We will see...
Nothing more than average or worse running backs
Wide receivers Sterling was "OK" didn't set the world on fire. Not great speed.
Cruz was done. No breakaway speed. Neither of these guys have great size.
Poor TE play.
OBJ was good but didn't show up when it was time to shine.
We were lucky Eli wasn't killed and accomplished what he was able to do. A lot of people knock his season but given the above I think he was pretty special.
This year I think our offense will be better. We have improved the wide receiver and tight end positions.
I expect better play with the addition of Flucker. I think Flowers will show a greater level of maturity. I like his conditioning going into OTA's I am hoping we will see better player out of some of the other guys and maybe the injury bug will stay away from our Oline. Big maybe.
Runners? I will have to wait and see. I'm not sold.
Another concern I have is OBJ. Don't know if his head is in the game. I can see him pouting if he gets off to a bad start.
We will see...
Can't disagree.
The only thing I can add is I think our defense maybe better than last year.
Uh... guess you didn't see this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wTyhjLnN_o
I was saying this during last season.. that the Giants were one injury away (OBJ) from having the worst offense in the league. Think about that for a minute. What other team could lose a player on their offense OTHER THAN their QB and what is left is so bad that it cannot even compete in the NFL.
THAT is what we had last season.
I dont blame the personnel/scheme. Mac's scheme makes good sense. I hope they dont go too crazy with new formations trying to show different looks. The personnel they ran can be great with a decent run game, a good 2 way TE, and the new weapons they have now. Perk can be a great 3 down back, not tipping the D as to what is coming like they would if they picked up Blount. Adding Engram is like another wide out. Bye-bye 2016. 17's gonna be nasty.
And not a word about Mc.
I'm not sure of anything but seems to me he should be in the discussion.
We went from the maligned Randall to the revered Shep, From Harris to Cruz , Tye, Hart and Flowers entering their second year of anticipated great growth and we get remarkably Worse.
And if you want to talk defense, this defense should have helped the offense, not hurt it...as seems the logical conclusion of some of these posts.
Insecurity is holding onto the clipboard. And confidence is essential to good coaching.
The man got a pass on the boat incident too. He had to turn tradiition on its ear and gave permission for OBJ and company not to return with their teammates.
To me, another sign of bad leadership and an attempt to be "popular". Always players that went out together came home together - sometimes to get on another plane and go bavk to the city they had just played in.
All the writers, players and management team seem to like and respect Mac. So it's fair to say that this casual fan doesn't know what he's talking about. But the clipboard as a sign of lack of leadership, and lack of the confidence and strength to delegate has to stand as a statement.
You can not hold the ckipboard, call the plays, sets, personnell and formations and fulfill the functions of a head coach.
PERIOD!!
The boat incident is a non incidence if he denies permission, which he should have. It wasn't Cruz's job to protect them against themselves, it was the Head Coach's....... "I'm sorry, Giant tradition says we go home together, once home you're free to do whatever you want on your day off." ..." But don't do anything stupid and call attention to yourselves"
Can't be proven, but maybe that simple directive gets us to the superbowl. And all the cries of "lack of personnel" is buloney anyway.
Maybe five all pros on the defense alone. Three superb corners, an all world safety, a great front four, much underrated Line backers, A superbowl QB and perhaps the greatest offensive threat in the game.
This is a flawed league, Atlanta with a bad defense, Green Bay uneven and flawed, Dallas completely one dimensional.
I think we had as good a group as anyone. I think the offense under-performed and with my dying breath I'll believe that the simple device of holding onto the clipboard spoke volumes...about character, leadership, proper delegation of authority and more.
You don't have hit enter after each sentence.
Randle to Cruz created a loss of diversification in the route tree.
No FB (loss of Johnson and Whitlock) meant that we could not run any plays which required a lead blocker, making the offense more predictable.
Loss of Fells and no blocking TE replacement. Adams was supposed to be that guy, but he had a rookie learning curve.
Jennings hit the RB wall.
Plus, the defense was so much better so that we were more conservative in the passing game so as to avoid costly turnovers.
All of these things caused the offense to be weaker, not stronger. The only real upgrade was Randle to Cruz, but it had a negative effect because Cruz was out of position and we no longer had a big WR target.
Posted specifics in both cases.
This time of year its fun to see what the actual team comes up with, more '12' run some '13' outside zone runs, play action, new faces at DT opening up the interior, the '12'.
TE/Pugh/Flowers[Richburg]Hart\Biz\TE
Nice young line to build around, get excited for themselves, grow as players, move the tackles in space.
outside zone runs left with perkins, play action right, drag route.
Forget what you think you saw or didn't see last year. Look at what you definitely saw this offseason. Two new expensive TEs. One new expensive WR. One more RB and the hurt guy coming back. That's a lot of turnover. There's a reason why. The players weren't any good.
His offense was horrible and so was his play calling.
He started a washed up receiver that should have been cut.
I suspect that with the improvement of the draft and a years learning curve, the OFFENSE will be much more efficient.
New HC who was also calling plays. Either it was too much for him as a new guy to follow his idol McCarthy or there was too much "Someday when I'm a head coach, I'm going to . . ." that didn't work.
Either way, let's hope with a year under his belt, he can get the offense moving.
I've made much here about the absurd overuse of 11 personnel packages. No other team in the NFL is even close to McAdoos 95% use of a single personnel set. As far as I know, this single personnel set idea hasn't been done in the 4 decades I've been watching pro football. Is McAdoo on to some sort of brilliant new idea here? Well, if he is, there's little evidence in the pathetic results we all witnessed last season. Far more likely is that McAdoo didn't think the sets were a problem, or he thought couldn't scheme anything else with the personnel he had. Either explaination worries me because McAdoo is supposed to be some kind of offensive genius.
I've seen some here argue that the Giants personnel doesn't "fit" McAdoos concepts. "Aaron Rodgers could run 11 personnel every play and win". Ah, yeah, I could be Aaron Rodgers O-Co and he'd still win. There can be no surer sign of a poor coach than one who can't adapt their scheme or concepts based on the talent on the roster. I'm not ready to jettison McAdoo, he showed much promise in being well prepared, able to handle a few lousy situations like the wife beater JR signed and OBJs silly kicking net shananigans, he was a mostly good game manager (though there were a few head scratchers during the season).
Oh I think he knew it. The problem is that so did the teams we played.
OL was bad in 2015 and was not addressed in the offseason last year. OL was not really addressed this year either, not in any proven way. We did address TE and #2 WR so that should help. Is Perkins the answer at RB? Probably better than Jenkins was last year so maybe the RB position is slightly better. It comes down to the OL. If Flowers improves that will make the whole OL better. You have Flowers, Pugh & Richburg who should all be better, Jerry is Jerry. Hopefully Fluker can unseat Jerry which then would be an upgrade. What we have at RT is anyone's guess.
I think the biggest offseason move is going to be Brandon Marshall. Even though he is coming off a terrible season I think he will open things up. He had nothing going for him last season. Simply having OBJ and Eli will make him a beast again imo. #2 WR was our biggest hole last year and now its filled.
You know we won a SB with him, right?
The biggest tell was in those games where the defense blew a lead or couldn't make stops late in the game. The Giants lost most those games because the offense was incompetent in the 4th quarter - they couldn't score or maintain drives.
McAdoo has a lot of work to do this off-season to get this fixed, there's some serious deep bedded issues with the offense that goes well beyond personnel.
The biggest tell was in those games where the defense blew a lead or couldn't make stops late in the game. The Giants lost most those games because the offense was incompetent in the 4th quarter - they couldn't score or maintain drives.
McAdoo has a lot of work to do this off-season to get this fixed, there's some serious deep bedded issues with the offense that goes well beyond personnel.
The Giants were one of the best fourth quarter offenses in 2015.
Their problems came largely in the first few minutes of the first and third quarters -- usually, when broken down, when they would try to make running the ball happen.
New HC who was also calling plays. Either it was too much for him as a new guy to follow his idol McCarthy or there was too much "Someday when I'm a head coach, I'm going to . . ." that didn't work.
Either way, let's hope with a year under his belt, he can get the offense moving.
So the same guy calling plays in 2014-15 all of a sudden was overwhelmed last year? Aint buying it. The team played with a necessary edge most of the entire season. They expanded the right amount of energy and poise at just the right time. They played to their strengths. They didn't make critical mistakes. They lost MAYBE one game they had no business losing. But the HC was overwhelmed with the same duties he handled prior.
Vereen was healthy in 2015. Not that he's a great player but he filled a huge hole adequately. Jennings was better in 2015. I also think it's fair to speculate that defenses did a poorer job of eliminating BEckham's big play. Also, the TEs and FBs were slightly better if not yet exposed as blatantly. They also didn't lose Pugh for 2 months. Without looking i'd also bet the Giants defensive opposition in 2015 was probably a bit easier. And they played more wide open from behind type action.
Why does it have to fall on McAdoo's play calling? What secret game plan was going to save the offense last year? What player? It was Beckham and Shepard and pray for most of the first 10 games. The running game took two months to even approach respectable once Vereen went down.
PLay calling is likely to be the least of our worries. McAdoo took what was given last year and put the best players on the field. He also seemed to be 95% in the right when going for it on 4th down.
The biggest tell was in those games where the defense blew a lead or couldn't make stops late in the game. The Giants lost most those games because the offense was incompetent in the 4th quarter - they couldn't score or maintain drives.
McAdoo has a lot of work to do this off-season to get this fixed, there's some serious deep bedded issues with the offense that goes well beyond personnel.
Exactly. The 2014-2015 offenses are widely overrated. Can we move on already from these so called good old days? those offenses didn't close jack shit. Think back to 2015 week 1. Instead of figuring it out and winning the game the offense literally choked on its own set of balls--Eli included. Fast forward one year and the offense dis just enough to win. It afforded the D a chance to win by gaining two first downs on that last drive.
14-15 are fucking history. 11 combined people. 11. I don't care how bad the D was, the O played a part. I don't care how BAD the O was last year, they played in a part in a winning season. The offense took steps forward last year. Give it another go this season with talent all over the place before you worry about McAdoo.
Last year the Giants put up less but they came out of the year with a long term solution at slot WR and rotation 20 touch RB. Now we have FA/Draft additions. There's a ton more to work with now compared to last year at this time. Let's see it unfold.
I don't even know where to start with a claim that the offense actually took steps forward in 2016. I just don't.
I am not saying last year was a good or even average offense. I am saying to forget about 2015. One has nothing to do with the other. Different players. Different games. Different records.
Fewer weapons, injuries to Vereen and Rashad, deficient at #2 WR, and with an OL that consistently got beaten Eli's confidence was brittle.
They didnt take any shots down the field.
They came out throwing on 1st down, and running on 2nd down. almost always forcing them to throw on 3rd down(usually long).
A dink and dunk offense doesnt work.
Cruz was out of position.
They did not have any tall receivers.
The play calling was just dreadful.
No fullback.
No tight end.