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One for the optimists (very, very, very long).

Klaatu : 6/11/2017 9:53 am
So I'm reading the thread about why last year's offense was so bad, and the one thought running through my brain was who gives a damn? As a famous man once said, "The past is the f*ck*ng past!" Now, to be sure, another famous man once said that those who don't learn from the past are doomed to repeat its mistakes, so I can certainly understand all of the reflection going on in that thread, but it seems to me that the Giants did learn from last year's offensive ineptitude and did what they could to see that it's not repeated this year.

As I wrote in another thread, if Eli doesn't have a "bounce back" year in 2017, it won't be from a lack of targets. The Giants replaced a largely ineffective Victor Cruz with Brandon Marshall. Marshall is no spring chicken, but he's clearly hungry for post-season play and the chance to compete for a championship. With his size and skill, he should pay big dividends on 3rd Down and in the red zone.

It's no secret that I'm not a huge fan of Sterling Shepard, but it's not like I think he sucks. I'd just like to see some improvement in his YAC, and he's said as much himself. I can see his targets/catches going down this year, but I can also see him making more out of the targets/catches he does get.

What can I say about OBJ that hasn't been said by everyone else? Generational talent? Check. One of the best - if not the best WR in the game? Check. Locker room cancer? Hardly. I might change my tune if he doesn't show up on Tuesday, but Kim Jones said he will and I believe her.

I'm not sure how many WRs the Giants will keep this year. It could be as few as five, but six is more likely. Regardless, I like the competition we'll see this summer for those last two or three spots. No doubt Dwayne Harris will be in the mix. The Giants seem to like Tavares King. Travis Rudolph is the "feel good" story of the year. Roger Lewis may be on thin ice, though. My dark horse for the final 53 is Darius Powe. I see him as a poor man's Brandon Marshall. And if special teams factors in the equation (and it probably will), Powe was a very willing and able special-teamer in college.

At Tight End, clearly the Giants saw the need for upgrades across the board, hence the signing of Rhett Ellison, a very good blocker either as a FB or inline as a TE. It should be noted that he spent much of his time in Minnesota seemingly joined at T.J. Clemmings' hip, providing as much help as possible to the struggling Viking LT.

Evan Engram gives the Giants the type of versatile, dynamic offensive weapon that they haven't had in ages. His size, speed, route-running, and hands add a dimension to the Giants offense that is already becoming evident. I fell in love with this kid when I watched him at the Senior Bowl and I was ecstatic when the Giants drafted him in the 1st Round. Surprised, but ecstatic nonetheless.

Again, it's hard to predict how many TEs the Giants will keep, but the competition should be very stiff in camp. I'm no fan of Will Tye, but I don't know if the Giants would be as quick to send him packing as I would be. I'm anxious to see what Jerell Adams can do after a year of seasoning, and if "summer wonder" Matt LaCosse can somehow remain healthy, the Giants may have a tough decision to make in August. All in all, it looks like a position of weakness that has plagued the Giants for years has now become a position of strength.

On the ground, addition by subtraction is the order of the day. Out: Rashad Jennings. In: Paul Perkins. Jennings was woefully ineffective last year while Perkins showed more than enough to have his head coach anoint him the starter without any hesitation this year. Can he be the proverbial "bell cow?" That remains to be seen, but I get the sense that the Giants do see him as a three-down back. If Shane Vereen stays healthy, though, I'm sure he'll get his share of touches, especially on 3rd downs, where his prowess as a receiver should come in very handy. I like Wayne Gallman, but I think the Giants will be content to bring him along slowly (barring any injuries, of course, God forbid). As for the other backs who will compete for a spot this summer, I'm not crazy about any of them. I'd keep the three I mentioned already and stash a kid like Khalid Abdullah on the PS, but I can certainly see the Giants keeping Darkwa or Draughn around (but probably not both).

I'd also keep a true Fullback on the roster. Shane Smith or Jacob Huesman...whichever one excels in camp...but if the Giants feel that their TEs can more than make up for the lack of a FB, so be it.

Which brings us to the elephant in the room - the offensive line.

I'm encouraged by all of the good things that have been said about Ereck Flowers this spring. If you buy what PFF is selling, then Flowers did show improvement - however marginal - from his first year to his second. My hope is that he will continue to improve. I don't expect him to miraculously turn into Jonathan Ogden 2.0, but the Giants have staked quite a bit on their expectation that he will at least become a solid, if not spectacular LT.

Bobby Hart has gotten his share of praise, too, but I think that Adam Bisnowaty will give him a run for his money for the starting RT spot. As Evan Engram said, "iron sharpens iron," and I figure that their competition will bring out the best in both of them. May the best man win.

Justin Pugh is looking to get paid. I don't have a problem with that. However, I'm looking for him to stay healthy. He hasn't played a full season since his rookie year. He's a good player. When he made the move to LG I said he could be another Marshal Yanda. I don't think he's played quite up to that level yet, but he's got another year to make that leap...and get that big contract he's looking for.

The RG spot is a little puzzling to me. The Giants made a commitment to John Jerry - not a huge one, but a commitment nonetheless - and then they signed D.J. Fluker and announced that he'll compete at RG. Jerry is what he is - a decent pass-blocker but an abysmal run-blocker - and Fluker is a reclamation project - a former 1st round pick looking to resurrect a career that floundered in San Diego. Again, may the best man win.

I'm very high on Weston Richburg, another guy who blew me away when I watched him at the Senior Bowl. Any thoughts that his playing LG as a rookie would stunt his growth as a Center should have been quickly dismissed by his performance in his natural position in his second year. It was a travesty that he didn't make the Pro Bowl in 2015. Reportedly, he suffered an injury to his snapping hand early on last year which hampered him all year long. Well, now he's healthy and I believe he'll be the rock-solid anchor that every good O-Line needs.

In conclusion (if you're still with me), I firmly believe that the 2017 Giants offense will be efficient as well as explosive. If they can stay relatively healthy, I believe that they'll field a championship-caliber offense to go along with their championship-caliber defense. I'd like to see them put the rest of the league on notice from the get-go by kicking the living crap out of the Cowboys on opening night.

Cry havoc, and let slip the dogs of war!
I would like to see Eli under center more  
gtt350 : 6/11/2017 10:07 am : link
and more passing on 1st down. the defense has a chance to be special
Since  
oldog : 6/11/2017 10:20 am : link
I am one of the optimist target group, thanks for your encouraging post. The reconstruction of the defense last year reflected that Giants management had a grip on what they were doing. Obviously, as your post outlines, they took on the offense this year. The way they built upon the talent available to them, and did it within the limited cap room available, has been very heartening, and seems to bode well. There appears to be a continuity and consistency of organization and management that has prepared well for the coming season. It appears that Dallas will again start their season off poorly, but this year unlike last, let's hope they don't recover against the rest of the league.
Keys to this offense's success  
est1986 : 6/11/2017 10:23 am : link
1. Improved O-Line play, particularly at the tackle spot.
2. Improved Run game, it has to be a legitimate threat.
3. Staying healthy.

The passing attack does not worry me when you have Eli Manning dropping back to pass to Brandon Marshall, Odell Beckham Jr, Sterling Sheppard, Evan Engram and Shane Vereen. If they are all on the field at once its a 99.9% chance its going to be a pass but with 3 seconds to throw, there is 99.9% chance no one is going to be able to stop that.
WE are an improved OL from 13-3 or 14-2  
PatersonPlank : 6/11/2017 10:38 am : link
and I believe OL play is as much a function of playing together and experience as a unit, as it is individual talent. OL has the highest % of low/undrafted players (my stat, no facts to back it up). Another year, Flowers improves, Fluker plays at G, Bisnowathy comes in, and Richburg is over his injury, we will be better.
I wouldn't Apologize for the length  
grizz299 : 6/11/2017 10:46 am : link
of that superb post. No wasted words there, all concise, terse and well done.
Frankly, better writing than most of the professional beat writers by a wide margin.
Thank you...
Good post but I'll disagree with you regarding Sterling Shepard  
JohnB : 6/11/2017 10:59 am : link
I think he's the real deal. He had a very good rookie year (for a rookie not named OBJ) and I think he takes the next step forward this year. Maybe not a Collins-type of leap but a serious one none the less.

Great post.  
Dave in Hoboken : 6/11/2017 11:22 am : link
I'm actually very optimistic going into this season. Barring injury, I think this team should be a legitimate contender.

If there's one thing I'm concerned about, it is the offensive line. Outside of Fluker and a later draft pick, we didn't address it much. So, it's going to be on guys like Flowers to improve dramatically from last season. Richburg & Pugh to stay healthy. Not sure how confident I am on those things happening, especially the Flowers' aspect, but we shall see. I was very happy to read about Flowers finally getting in better shape. That sounds like a step in the right direction. But that's just a step. We need him to perform on the field at a rather high level this year and given where he was picked and the fact that this will be his 3rd season, there's no reason for him to not pick up his play big time this year.
.  
arcarsenal : 6/11/2017 11:39 am : link
Nice post, my friend.

I am really looking forward to this season.

There are always variables and things that can go wrong or take us by surprise. Injuries can really put the brakes on things and there's a possibility Eli won't be any better than he was last year or that the OL will be bad or even that a guy like Marshall suddenly just drops off.

I tend to be a relatively optimistic fan. I try to be fair and realistic and won't sugarcoat things when they're bad. When we fired Perry and brought Spags back, I said that despite being glad Spags was back, that the defense was still going to be awful in 2015 because the real issue was the lack of talent on that side of the ball more than it was Fewell. I do think Spagnuolo has done more and is the better DC.. but when I felt like a part of the team was dreadful, I had no issue pointing it out.

Anyway, no one cares about my fan tendencies...

Back to 2017.

I think the line will be better this year for a few reasons...

One, a healthy Richburg will be much better than the shell of himself that he was in 2016.

Two, I think the depth is better. I think Fluker will wind up being a solid pickup. I watch Alabama more than any other CFB team and I really loved him when he was there and would have loved for NYG to draft him. Things didn't go so well in SD, but I still think the ability is there for him to be a solid player and think this will be a better situation for him.

Three, I am cautiously optimistic that Flowers can have his best year yet. I think he's shown some signs and it sounds like he's determined to be in the best shape possible and is really taking this seriously. I expect him to improve. I don't expect a Landon Collins-like jump, but I do think Flowers can and will be better

Lastly, I think Ellison is going to help the OL a bit. I think he'll be a help to the OT's out against the upper tier edge rushers we'll face.

I'm really excited to see Darian Thompson next to Collins rather than Andrew Adams. Praying that he can stay healthy. He was receiving some serous praise last year through camp.

I think a guy like Goodson could emerge this year and really be a presence in the middle.

I expect Vernon to be better with a healthy hand.

I absolutely love the Beckham/Marshall/Shepard trio.. I like our TE group a lot and am extremely excited about Engram.

I just feel really good about this team.

Now, I could certainly be wrong about many of the above.

But I don't remember the last time we went into a new season and I felt like we had such a well-balanced team.

I think this is a contender. A lot of this is going to hinge on Eli and the run game improving.. which I think it will sans-Jennings with Perkins getting more burn, Gallman getting some work and Vereen being back in the fold as the 3DRB.

September can't come soon enough.

Well, I'd like to enjoy the summer first.. but still. This should be an exciting season. From the 2nd half of 2012 through 2015, this was a pretty crappy football team. Things picked back up last year and now I think we're on an upswing and have a little window to win another Super Bowl here and am really looking forward to it.

I think my post might be longer than Klaatu's. Jeez.
arc  
Klaatu : 6/11/2017 11:43 am : link
That's only because I was saving the defense for next Sunday morning.
On paper and with the requisite health disclaimer,  
Big Blue '56 : 6/11/2017 11:44 am : link
the Giants can and should compete with ANYONE..

Btw Klaatu and as an aside, since I didn't care to follow one second of the OTAs, i'd like to know if there were any injuries of note?
RE: arc  
arcarsenal : 6/11/2017 11:46 am : link
In comment 13496009 Klaatu said:
Quote:
That's only because I was saving the defense for next Sunday morning.


Looking forward to it.

I kind of cliff-noted both sides of the ball. You'll probably have a better write-up than I. :)
Even I, OMG,  
Doomster : 6/11/2017 11:54 am : link
agree with most of what Klaatu has said....."Gort, Klaatu barada nikto"

I believe Eli was straddled with a limited/predictable offense....for the most part if OBj, didn't take it to the house, we just didn't sustain drives.....I think Eli still has "it".....if the TE's/FB can help the OL, the running game should improve.....no longer does the defense have to worry about only just OBj....if Marshall still has something left in the tank, if SS shows improvement, if Vereen stays healthy and Engram can catch on fast, our passing game should improve.....what I am excited about is third down....Eli had few options....this year with Engram and Ellison in the game, Eli can shift into a variety of formations, based on the defense he reads....

As for the running game, it still remains to be seen if Perkins can be that bell cow.....Vereen should be able to spell him at times.....Gallman, like Klaatu stated, may have a learning curve like Perkins did last season....I still think the fourth guy is not on this roster yet....Darkwa, just does not instill confidence that he can stay on the field....

There really wasn't much in free agency or the Draft, as far as OLman go.......so basically, it was the status quo, two years in a row....if our 6th rounder beats out our 7th rounder, exactly how much of an improvement is that? Everyone is just about assuming Flowers will turn the corner...it remains to be seen....if he has problems still, you stick Ellison on that side for a chip block, something we didn't do last year, apparently because our TE's couldn't even chip block....Richburg was being overpowered last season...was it because of injury or film? As for Pugh, I would not be surprised if he is not here next season.....he wants big bucks, but his level of play does not warrant it...he can be replaced......the right side of the OL, is still a merry-go-round, and probably won't be established until the end of camp.....

Even so, if this OL can perform adequately, and give Eli some confidence in them, with the weapons now at his disposal, I think the media will be jumping back on the Eli bandwagon, again....and if the offense puts more points on the board, it makes our defense more dangerous....
RE: On paper and with the requisite health disclaimer,  
Klaatu : 6/11/2017 12:12 pm : link
In comment 13496012 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
the Giants can and should compete with ANYONE..

Btw Klaatu and as an aside, since I didn't care to follow one second of the OTAs, i'd like to know if there were any injuries of note?


Yeah...sure.

Doctor, since I didn't care to examine my own patient, why don't you tell me what's wrong with him?

Anyway...Ellison has a calf, Apple has a hammy, Deayon and M. Thompson riding bikes. J.T. Thomas, too, I think.
I'm a big Shepard fan.  
BrettNYG10 : 6/11/2017 12:14 pm : link
Think he's going to be really good as a #3. The offense should be a lot better this year.
...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 6/11/2017 12:22 pm : link
I hate to say it, but the biggest wild card on this team right now is probably Eli Manning. We need a good year from him.
RE: ...  
DieHard : 6/11/2017 12:27 pm : link
In comment 13496034 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I hate to say it, but the biggest wild card on this team right now is probably Eli Manning. We need a good year from him.


My hope is that what we saw from Eli in 2016 is similar to what happened to Matt Ryan in 2015 -- injuries and lack of talent around him threw off his rhythm. Once Ryan got more help in 2016 he had an MVP-caliber season. If Eli's current cast stays healthy and he continues to struggle this year, at least we'll know that our future starting QB will need to arrive sooner rather than later.
Eric  
ChicagoMarty : 6/11/2017 12:29 pm : link
Agreed.

I think we need Eli to replicate his brother's last season with the Bronco's and just game manage, minimize turnovers, and let his improved weaponry and D make the plays to win the games
thanks Klaatu, great read  
Gregorio : 6/11/2017 12:30 pm : link
reading this brings out the optimist in me. Let's get the pre-season started! Dang, Aug 11 is 2 months away.
Well said, Klaatu  
SoDev : 6/11/2017 12:34 pm : link
I agree with everything. I'm very optimistic, as I see no point in focusing on any negative angles. There is plenty of time to feel like crap later if certain aspects of the team don't work out.
RE: ...  
SoDev : 6/11/2017 12:39 pm : link
In comment 13496034 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I hate to say it, but the biggest wild card on this team right now is probably Eli Manning. We need a good year from him.


I can see why you say that, but when you consider the o-line play, plus lack of running game, plus shit TE play, plus only having Beckham and rookie to throw to, basically. I just do not see how people can think Eli had a real chance at a good year looking back at last year.

This is the year that determines that. If he plays bad this year I'll say Eli has lost a step, but I believe we will see a resurgence from Eli back to a prob bowl level of play.
RE: Eric  
Devon : 6/11/2017 12:51 pm : link
In comment 13496039 ChicagoMarty said:
Quote:
Agreed.

I think we need Eli to replicate his brother's last season with the Bronco's and just game manage, minimize turnovers, and let his improved weaponry and D make the plays to win the games


Peyton didn't game manage, he was just flat out awful the vast majority of that season. 9 TDs to 17 INTs in ten games, no ability to throw even intermediate balls, and deservedly benched to see what Osweiler could do awful. His "better" stretch in the playoffs was riddled with luck and breaks going his way that we're in no way sustainable or repeatable.

If that's how bad people think the younger Manning is at this point, they should be arguing for giving Johnson, Geno, and/or Webb starting snaps.
I like SS, but his rookie year  
giants#1 : 6/11/2017 12:56 pm : link
Wasn't that special. He was good, but his 683 yds is the 50th best for a rookie since 2000.

Rookie Yards

Receptions he was much better (21st over that period) and TDs he was great (tied 7th), but he needs to show more YAC ability to take the next step as a WR (IMO).
Good stuff. Just a few quick responses  
Vanzetti : 6/11/2017 1:59 pm : link
"As a famous man once said, "'The past is the f*ck*ng past!'"

--What famous man said that? Was it Joey in VA.?

--TE is tough. Tye sucks as your number one TE. But as you number four TE? But then again maybe it is better to keep LaCosse since he is more of a traditional TE. Or do they even go with 4 TEs?

--I know you won't believe it but Eli's "down year" was because of the OL. Remember the OL actually played fairly well the last six weeks of 2015. They were never able to adjust to Solari's schemes and just sucked all of 2016.

--No blocking TE mans you can never give Flowers help. Also, forced Giant to play Jennings because he was the only RB you could trust in pass pro after Vereen went down. That is a huge double whammy.

--Agree on Poe. It would be great if he can take a step forward. Giants need someone who can play Marshall's role if he goes down mid-game.

I agree with almost all of this except the offensive line  
ZGiants98 : 6/11/2017 2:32 pm : link
On paper, it just isn't good. It's fine to be optimistic and expect players to turn it around and play better then they have in their pasts but you really are expecting best case scenarios across the board and for most players to take a significant jump if you think it's going to be good all of the sudden.
Its perfectly acceptable to believe Pugh and Richburg will rebound IMO. Flowers, Jerry, Hart, and Fluker are either lacking talent or have woefully underperformed thus far in their careers.

That said, of course the line can turn it around and be great. It's just not rational to have that expectation at this point with what these guys have shown.
RE: ...  
Diver_Down : 6/11/2017 3:38 pm : link
In comment 13496034 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I hate to say it, but the biggest wild card on this team right now is probably Eli Manning. We need a good year from him.


What a bunch of horseshit. People are buying into Benny's comments that Eli needs to play better/get used to dirty pockets/etc. Eli has always been Eli. Eli will be fine. He had a completion percentage that exceeded 2015, and exceeded his career completion percentage by 3%. 4000+ yards and 26 TDs is not a problem. He has a career passer rating of 83.7, yet in 2016 he had a QBR of 86.

The team's success can't be simplified and laid at the feet of Manning. He isn't the problem. He is performing/exceeding his career benchmarks. What the team needs is to be successful in the Redzone. What the team needs is a running game. What the team needs is competency along the entire OL.

Sure Eli can always play better. We've been hearing it from him in his pressers since 2004. But if you are looking at the player as an individual, Eli is Eli.
pretty important  
mdc1 : 6/11/2017 4:07 pm : link
that we run the football this year, not sure what our oline will do. Given the impotency of the offense and the fact that many teams have seen our system and stopped our passing game, running the football for the right percentage will dictate how far we go. One thing I have always liked about TC was he understood this, not sure we are going to throw our way into success. It starts in the trenches as we found out spending 200m on dline did.
Klaatu  
Montreal Man : 6/11/2017 4:20 pm : link
Great post. Inspiring, even. You've corralled all the positives on the team in one terrific essay.
.....That this foul deed shall smell above the earth
With carrion men, groaning for burial.
If I'm not mistaken...  
Milton : 6/11/2017 4:44 pm : link
Quote:
The Giants made a commitment to John Jerry - not a huge one, but a commitment nonetheless - and then they signed D.J. Fluker and announced that he'll compete at RG.
The Giants signed Fluker before re-signing Jerry. And the curious thing about Jerry's contract is that he has a buy-out clause, so he can option out of the deal after one year if he so chooses (and he's willing to fork over some money).
RE: Good stuff. Just a few quick responses  
Klaatu : 6/11/2017 5:24 pm : link
In comment 13496104 Vanzetti said:
Quote:
"As a famous man once said, "'The past is the f*ck*ng past!'"

--What famous man said that? Was it Joey in VA.?


No, it was Michael Strahan.

Joey is famous for his palindromes, such as, "Sit on a potato pan, Otis."
RE: If I'm not mistaken...  
Klaatu : 6/11/2017 6:01 pm : link
In comment 13496263 Milton said:
Quote:


Quote:


The Giants made a commitment to John Jerry - not a huge one, but a commitment nonetheless - and then they signed D.J. Fluker and announced that he'll compete at RG.

The Giants signed Fluker before re-signing Jerry. And the curious thing about Jerry's contract is that he has a buy-out clause, so he can option out of the deal after one year if he so chooses (and he's willing to fork over some money).


You're right, Milton. The Giants signed Fluker on March 11, then re-signed Jerry on March 13. My bad.
this team is absolutely loaded  
annexOPR : 6/11/2017 7:17 pm : link
with a secondary, defensive line, and receiving corp that most teams would kill for

To me it all depends on  
Reb8thVA : 6/11/2017 7:58 pm : link
If they can generate a consistent running game. That would solve a lot of problems.
Nice write up  
Mike B from JC : 6/11/2017 9:29 pm : link
Klaatu, I generally agree with you on the team. I'm hoping flowers, slimmer is a quicker and better player? Hoping, fluker, comes into his own? One of Jones, bisnowaty, wheeler and dunkerman, is a player. Running game should be ok? Think perk and gallman, will surprise? Team loaded at wr, hopefully engram Will help tremendously.obj, is great but needs a kick in the seat of his pants. Dline and secondary are strong points. Lb? Hoping goodson is as good as such, thinks he is. Let's go Giants
RE: RE: ...  
arcarsenal : 6/11/2017 10:19 pm : link
In comment 13496167 Diver_Down said:
Quote:
In comment 13496034 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


I hate to say it, but the biggest wild card on this team right now is probably Eli Manning. We need a good year from him.



What a bunch of horseshit. People are buying into Benny's comments that Eli needs to play better/get used to dirty pockets/etc. Eli has always been Eli. Eli will be fine. He had a completion percentage that exceeded 2015, and exceeded his career completion percentage by 3%. 4000+ yards and 26 TDs is not a problem. He has a career passer rating of 83.7, yet in 2016 he had a QBR of 86.

The team's success can't be simplified and laid at the feet of Manning. He isn't the problem. He is performing/exceeding his career benchmarks. What the team needs is to be successful in the Redzone. What the team needs is a running game. What the team needs is competency along the entire OL.

Sure Eli can always play better. We've been hearing it from him in his pressers since 2004. But if you are looking at the player as an individual, Eli is Eli.


Eli definitely could have been better last year. He wasn't "awful" but I do think some of the critiques are warranted.

It's hard to QB in this league when your line doesn't block particularly well and you have very little run game to speak of. Beckham has balanced that out a bit by being an elite target and gamebreaking WR.. but Eli definitely left some plays on the field last season.

One that really sticks out was Tye down the seam in GB during the regular season - that play could have really changed the momentum in that game. Eli also seemed to bail early on some plays where he had a little more time than he thought.

He certainly wasn't terrible and I don't think anything about his play last year made it seem like he's about to hit the brick wall that is the end of his career. But I do think he was better in 2015 and can elevate his play a bit to get back to that level.

Eli is going to have as many weapons at his disposal as ever this year. If Engram is what he's being billed as, this has the potential to be Eli's best set of targets in his entire career. That depends on a few things, but on paper, the WR and TE groups we have right now are probably as good as ever.

Just give him a little time and I have no doubt that #10 will deliver a big year. Eli still has gas in the tank. I definitely believe that.
I think Shepard is going to catch a shit load of balls this year.  
djm : 6/11/2017 10:34 pm : link
Eli loves going to the slot guy and while there is only one football I think this offense will stay on the field and sustain drives resulting in plenty of opportunity and will all that attention devoted to obj and Marshall and Engram, Shepard is going to get a ton of looks. He's also a year older and better acclimated with Eli.

Look back over the years with Eli. No matter how many weapons were on the field of Eli had a reliable guy in the slot he fed him and fed him often. Steve smith got 100 catches with nicks and manningham. Cruz went bananas for two years with nicks and manningham. Shepard might catch 80 in his sleep.
RE: I think Shepard is going to catch a shit load of balls this year.  
Milton : 6/11/2017 10:46 pm : link
In comment 13496486 djm said:
Quote:
Eli loves going to the slot guy
True enough, but Eli also loves throwing to tall receivers and the additions of Marshall, Engram, and Ellison should have him salivating.
I have a feeling it's all gong to come down to...  
Torrag : 6/11/2017 11:09 pm : link
...MacAdoo as a playcalling head coach. He was predictable and uninspired in that role last season. Was he limited by certain roster shortcomings? Yes, but an innovative mind finds a way to keep the other guy from getting a leg up on him come game day...somehow. He didn't do that last season.

Can he improve? Certainly. Will he? Only one way to find out.
.  
arcarsenal : 6/11/2017 11:16 pm : link
I wasn't super impressed with Shepard last year. I think he's certainly a viable option in the pass game and probably better than a lot of WR3's. I just didn't feel like I saw much explosion or playmaking ability. He seemed to be more of a possession guy. I don't recall many RAC plays from him - seemed like most receptions ended within 5 yards of where the ball was caught. Steve Smith-esque.

But that's fine. I think he'll be better in year two and I also think we'll be able to utilize his skillset better with Cruz out of the picture.

I just remember in camp last year there were some people saying he could be similar to Beckham but I never felt like I saw anything resembling that extra gear that OBJ has.

Regardless, he'll be a nice option in the pass game and I think the personnel we have now will enable McAdoo to deploy him in a way that maximizes his strengths.
The thing with Shepard is that he might end  
ZGiants98 : 6/11/2017 11:42 pm : link
up coming off the field a lot with Engram in. Engram might end up taking his place in the middle of the field with Ellison left in to block. We'll see.
I also have zero issues with Eli  
ZGiants98 : 6/11/2017 11:42 pm : link
All the weapons in the world dont mean horse pucky if the line cant block for him though.
If I were grading our units...  
ZGiants98 : 6/11/2017 11:45 pm : link
Secondary A+
Linebackers C
Defensive Line B

Quarterbacks A-
Running backs B-
Wide Receivers A+
Tight Ends B+

Offensive Line F
RE: I agree with almost all of this except the offensive line  
Klaatu : 6/12/2017 7:26 am : link
In comment 13496130 ZGiants98 said:
Quote:
On paper, it just isn't good. It's fine to be optimistic and expect players to turn it around and play better then they have in their pasts but you really are expecting best case scenarios across the board and for most players to take a significant jump if you think it's going to be good all of the sudden.
Its perfectly acceptable to believe Pugh and Richburg will rebound IMO. Flowers, Jerry, Hart, and Fluker are either lacking talent or have woefully underperformed thus far in their careers.

That said, of course the line can turn it around and be great. It's just not rational to have that expectation at this point with what these guys have shown.


It's not about the offensive line becoming great all of a sudden. It's about them showing improvement, however marginal, from last year. Couple that with better health, better blocking from the TE/FB and WR positions, improved performance at RB, and more innovative and diverse playcalling, and the belief is that those will compensate for any deficiencies on the line.

At some point you have to trust your process, your players and your coaches, especially when your options for upgrades are limited. So you stick with a kid like Flowers and see if you can "coach him up" into something, as I said, solid, if not spectacular. It's not like he doesn't have the will or the desire to excel. If you're not encouraged by the fact that he stayed up here and worked to transform his body and improve his conditioning, then I don't know what to tell you. And again, you make improvements on the periphery with the goal of mitigating any deficiencies he still might have.

Where it's doable, you bring in players who can compete for spots, hence the additions of guys like Fluker and Bisnowaty who can push Jerry and Hart on the right side of the line. You stick with a kid like Jones, who was underwhelming as a rookie, but is turning into a competent sub/spot-starter. You take a flyer on kids like Dunker and Wheeler who have the tools, the physicality to compete, but probably need a little more seasoning.
Thanks milton  
Mike B from JC : 6/12/2017 7:43 am : link
For stating the fact about the tall wr's. That is totally accurate and true. With 6-4 Marshall and engram, has to tall and quick wr to throw it up to. If oline keeps him on his feet, going to be fun.
agree with all of that  
msh : 6/12/2017 8:11 am : link
that collapse and struggle on offence when teams used cover2 and smothered beckham was the reason they went out and got marshall to give defences a true number 2 WR to worry about even if cruz had returned to previous form he was a slot receiver not an out and out wide player him and shepard on the field together was a mistake and wasnt going to work

i wouldnt over look the importance of ellison in obvious running situations and i too advocate the need for a FB on the roster to run lead blocks at the goal line. i hope shane smith can land that role but i can also except they use ellison in that role and free up a roster spot for lacrosse who has should up well in ota's i think they keep more TE and less WR and lewis's ovi means the end of him unfortunately he dropped too many passes as well if your honest even before the off field issues

i love the bisnowaty pick and have a good feeling he oust's hart as the starter at RT and puts pressure on flowers to play better as they finally have a guy that COULD play LT which flowers hasnt faced since he was drafted,i like the chances fluker pushes jerry to a backup and gives them a nasty streak to run behind on the right where they have traditionally been more effective see snee/diehl/mckenzie in the superbowl runs

i also think that both wheeler and dunker could be piviotal for them if pugh's contract demands are as high as indicted they may need one of these guys to play LG after this year if pugh is signed away for too much or they head off OBJ's low contract figure before his 5th year option which i hope they do would give them leverage to maybe shave some money off the total if they extend him to include the option year beckham is an exception where someone may be willing to give up 2 first round picks as a restricted free agent to sign him away from the giants or push his price way up

the key things that you need to see are if the OL improves which im very optomistic it will and whether tomlinson can step in week 1 and be at least as good as hankins was i also think he will be a better inside rusher than hankins was but i'll settle for on par,they need that middle of the DL to shut down elliot week 1 force dak to throw more and take advantage of that ravaged dallas secondry with all the new weapons they added this offseason a week 1 victory i believe sets them up to take the division and pile on the pressure on dak and zeke in dallas as that defence in dallas was weak before and got worse this offseason too
Very Good  
Glover : 6/12/2017 10:05 am : link
I hope they can keep Ellison, Adams, and LaCosse, since Engram is pretty much a WR. But it would be weird to have 5 WRs or 3 RBs. Seems unthinkable. I like your take on Flowers. i have strongly doubted him since early last season, and all the praise he has gotten from the coaches this offseason has given me some confidence he will become a competent player this year.
I am a big time optimist. Giants go 12-4, win the NFC east, #1 seed in the NFC, beat Packers in NFC champ game (scary), and beat NE again in SB. That is my optimistic prognostication.
Glover  
Klaatu : 6/12/2017 10:09 am : link
Much has been made of McAdoo using the 2011 Packers as a template for building his roster. With that in mind, five WRs and three RBs (plus one FB) is not inconceivable.

Just some food for thought.
RE: If I were grading our units...  
annexOPR : 6/12/2017 10:12 am : link
In comment 13496547 ZGiants98 said:
Quote:
Secondary A+
Linebackers C
Defensive Line B

Quarterbacks A-
Running backs B-
Wide Receivers A+
Tight Ends B+

Offensive Line F


a DL with 2 of the best DEs in the game and quite possibly the best DT should be an A even if they lined up a tackling dummy opposite Snacks

* Tomlinson was the 1 guy I was really hoping they'd land. I don't expect much of a drop off from overpaid Hankins - who actually had his worst year last year anyway.
Eli wasn't so much the issue in the Green Bay Playoff game  
Simms11 : 6/12/2017 10:36 am : link
IMO. Eli has been mostly up and down his whole career. The really great thing about Eli however is his ability to let crap flow off of him and rebound with a vengeance. I see a much better year from Eli with his new cast of skilled players, a better running game and help blocking from the TEs and WRs too.
RE: RE: I think Shepard is going to catch a shit load of balls this year.  
djm : 6/12/2017 1:16 pm : link
In comment 13496495 Milton said:
Quote:
In comment 13496486 djm said:


Quote:


Eli loves going to the slot guy

True enough, but Eli also loves throwing to tall receivers and the additions of Marshall, Engram, and Ellison should have him salivating.


He certainly does. One doesn't necessarily hinder the other.
Unfortunately  
nicky43 : 6/12/2017 1:17 pm : link
Unfortunately for me the o-line prevents me from being an optimist but I think this was a great post by Klaatu and I do feel a tiny bit better about our chance after reading it.

I will say that had we improved the o-line significantly I would be very optimistic.

my point is  
djm : 6/12/2017 1:28 pm : link
and this can be applied to the whole FF dynamic as well. The more talent a QB has at his disposal is a good thing for the stat lovers out there. Despite the widespread common belief more talent for the QB to utilize doesn't mean those skill players have to suffer. It rarely if ever happens. Good QBs get the ball to everyone. For every instance of not enough balls to go around, drives last longer. The team moves the ball for more yards.

Everyone worth their weight will get their burn. I guarantee it. If a guy fails it's going to be due to injury or the guy simply wasn't any good.
I was puzzled about the Fluker signing. Backup at 2 positions okay.  
Ivan15 : 6/12/2017 1:57 pm : link
But it seems like it wasn't a good deal for Fluker or the Giants. If he does well and starts, the Giants will have to pay him starter money (and probably not sign Pugh) or lose him (most likely scenario). Meanwhile the player he beats out will be on the bench but still be a candidate to start next year.

If he can't beat out Jerry or Hart, he will languish on the bench for the season or at least until there is an injury.

Fluker must have been desperate.
RE: ...  
BillKo : 6/12/2017 3:58 pm : link
In comment 13496034 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I hate to say it, but the biggest wild card on this team right now is probably Eli Manning. We need a good year from him.


And the reason he's a wild card is due to the OL.

Eli can still wing it....but as always he needs time.
RE: RE: I agree with almost all of this except the offensive line  
ZGiants98 : 6/12/2017 10:29 pm : link
In comment 13496571 Klaatu said:
Quote:
In comment 13496130 ZGiants98 said:


Quote:


On paper, it just isn't good. It's fine to be optimistic and expect players to turn it around and play better then they have in their pasts but you really are expecting best case scenarios across the board and for most players to take a significant jump if you think it's going to be good all of the sudden.
Its perfectly acceptable to believe Pugh and Richburg will rebound IMO. Flowers, Jerry, Hart, and Fluker are either lacking talent or have woefully underperformed thus far in their careers.

That said, of course the line can turn it around and be great. It's just not rational to have that expectation at this point with what these guys have shown.



It's not about the offensive line becoming great all of a sudden. It's about them showing improvement, however marginal, from last year. Couple that with better health, better blocking from the TE/FB and WR positions, improved performance at RB, and more innovative and diverse playcalling, and the belief is that those will compensate for any deficiencies on the line.

At some point you have to trust your process, your players and your coaches, especially when your options for upgrades are limited. So you stick with a kid like Flowers and see if you can "coach him up" into something, as I said, solid, if not spectacular. It's not like he doesn't have the will or the desire to excel. If you're not encouraged by the fact that he stayed up here and worked to transform his body and improve his conditioning, then I don't know what to tell you. And again, you make improvements on the periphery with the goal of mitigating any deficiencies he still might have.

Where it's doable, you bring in players who can compete for spots, hence the additions of guys like Fluker and Bisnowaty who can push Jerry and Hart on the right side of the line. You stick with a kid like Jones, who was underwhelming as a rookie, but is turning into a competent sub/spot-starter. You take a flyer on kids like Dunker and Wheeler who have the tools, the physicality to compete, but probably need a little more seasoning.


I have no issue with any of this. All Im saying you are banking on a lot to go right. Everyone will tell you Im one of the most optimistic people on BBI. It can certainly happen. All I am saying, on paper, right now the line does not look good. Our tackles are coming off a season where they might have been the worst tandem in football. Is a 6th rounder going to change that? Are they going to get a lot better?I sure as hell dont know.
RE: RE: If I were grading our units...  
ZGiants98 : 6/12/2017 10:32 pm : link
In comment 13496726 annexOPR said:
Quote:
In comment 13496547 ZGiants98 said:


Quote:


Secondary A+
Linebackers C
Defensive Line B

Quarterbacks A-
Running backs B-
Wide Receivers A+
Tight Ends B+

Offensive Line F



a DL with 2 of the best DEs in the game and quite possibly the best DT should be an A even if they lined up a tackling dummy opposite Snacks

* Tomlinson was the 1 guy I was really hoping they'd land. I don't expect much of a drop off from overpaid Hankins - who actually had his worst year last year anyway.


I disagree. OV is good but he's certainly not one of the best DE in football or as elite as you are making him out to be. He has potential to be even better though. JPP is always hurt. Snacks is an awesome run stuffer but we dont have a penetrating tackle nor do we have depth there. Its still very good which is why I grade it out as a B.
The issues with the offense last year  
eclipz928 : 6/13/2017 12:31 am : link
weren't just related to the personnel. McAdoo has been getting a bit of pass for an offense that hasn't been consistent under him. The additions will help, but the biggest improvements will come if he is able to do a better job with scheming and preparation.
RE: RE: RE: I agree with almost all of this except the offensive line  
Klaatu : 6/13/2017 7:21 am : link
In comment 13497846 ZGiants98 said:
Quote:
In comment 13496571 Klaatu said:


Quote:


In comment 13496130 ZGiants98 said:


Quote:


On paper, it just isn't good. It's fine to be optimistic and expect players to turn it around and play better then they have in their pasts but you really are expecting best case scenarios across the board and for most players to take a significant jump if you think it's going to be good all of the sudden.
Its perfectly acceptable to believe Pugh and Richburg will rebound IMO. Flowers, Jerry, Hart, and Fluker are either lacking talent or have woefully underperformed thus far in their careers.

That said, of course the line can turn it around and be great. It's just not rational to have that expectation at this point with what these guys have shown.



It's not about the offensive line becoming great all of a sudden. It's about them showing improvement, however marginal, from last year. Couple that with better health, better blocking from the TE/FB and WR positions, improved performance at RB, and more innovative and diverse playcalling, and the belief is that those will compensate for any deficiencies on the line.

At some point you have to trust your process, your players and your coaches, especially when your options for upgrades are limited. So you stick with a kid like Flowers and see if you can "coach him up" into something, as I said, solid, if not spectacular. It's not like he doesn't have the will or the desire to excel. If you're not encouraged by the fact that he stayed up here and worked to transform his body and improve his conditioning, then I don't know what to tell you. And again, you make improvements on the periphery with the goal of mitigating any deficiencies he still might have.

Where it's doable, you bring in players who can compete for spots, hence the additions of guys like Fluker and Bisnowaty who can push Jerry and Hart on the right side of the line. You stick with a kid like Jones, who was underwhelming as a rookie, but is turning into a competent sub/spot-starter. You take a flyer on kids like Dunker and Wheeler who have the tools, the physicality to compete, but probably need a little more seasoning.



I have no issue with any of this. All Im saying you are banking on a lot to go right. Everyone will tell you Im one of the most optimistic people on BBI. It can certainly happen. All I am saying, on paper, right now the line does not look good. Our tackles are coming off a season where they might have been the worst tandem in football. Is a 6th rounder going to change that? Are they going to get a lot better?I sure as hell dont know.


Nobody knows, Robert. When Man entered the atomic age, he opened a door into a new world. What we'll eventually find in that new world, nobody can predict.

Oh...sorry...I channeled Them! there for a minute.

Anyway...the point of being optimistic is that you do bank on a lot of things going right. But the optimism doesn't have to be mindless. You watch (or read about) what guys like Flowers and Hart are doing to improve their play, you listen to what their coaches are saying, and you form your opinions. Players can and do get better if they have the will to do so, if they're willing to put in the time and effort to succeed. You can choose to believe that they'll never improve or you can choose to believe that they will. I choose the latter.
.....  
Route 9 : 6/13/2017 2:57 pm : link
I like the Giants chances. The hype for this year is strong. Lets get that 5th Super Bowl!
RE: ...  
Jersey55 : 6/14/2017 5:08 pm : link
In comment 13496034 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I hate to say it, but the biggest wild card on this team right now is probably Eli Manning. We need a good year from him.


Eli has always been the most confusing player on the team for me going back to the beginning of his days as a Giant because I never knew which Eli would show up for the game, the good one or the bad one and that hasn't changed.....
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