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NFT: USMNT vs Mexico tonight 8:30p FoxSports1

B in ALB : 6/11/2017 5:51 pm
Huge game tonight at Azteca in Mexico City. I expect the filthy el tri to try to manhandle Pulicic tonight and play dirty as usual. Flopping, flipping, floundering all over the field. The fans will undoubtedly be acting like dumpster trash and shouting their puto chant like the mouthbreathers they are. I'm also expecting a loss unfortunately. A tie/result would be unreal. Mexico has been playing really really well.
I think we'll play with 2 DMs tonight (4-2-3-1) and be happy with  
Del Shofner : 6/11/2017 5:53 pm : link
0-0 or 1-1. Dempsey may not start.
make some history boys  
TexasGmenFan : 6/11/2017 6:02 pm : link
...
Quite the challenge ahead  
Kyle in NY : 6/11/2017 6:04 pm : link
for our boys, but it's nice to go into this one with proper leadership from the manager for a change and some attacking players in really good form
Word is that there will be  
B in ALB : 6/11/2017 6:06 pm : link
Seven changes to the lineup from Thursday night.
Arena  
jv : 6/11/2017 6:07 pm : link
Says 7 changes to the lineup. Should be interesting to see what he puts out there with that many changes
I'm thinking  
jv : 6/11/2017 6:15 pm : link
Howard, Pulisic and Bradley would likely stay.. but who the hell knows
Beat writers  
Jon in NYC : 6/11/2017 6:32 pm : link
Are going nuts on twitter with the lineup news.

I'm guessing:

Altidore
Pulisic-Nagbe
Johnson-Bradley-Acosta-Yedlin
Brooks-Gonzalez-Cameron
Watching In Mexico City  
Jeffrey : 6/11/2017 6:37 pm : link
Here for a family reunion of our daughter-in-law yesterday and watching tonight from the hotel. The talk here is about the Mexican players who are not going to play. Some serious respect for Pulisic but overall no one seems overly impressed with the American team which the local media describes as undergoing a generational transition. Word is that the US will pack it in and try to score on the counterattack. If so, here's hoping to see Woods over Dempsey, simply to add speed. Another factor is that with 5-6 starters sitting on a suspension with their next yellow and the Cost Rica game next, Arena does not want to do anything to jeopardize what will be a very important home game.
RE: Beat writers  
adamg : 6/11/2017 6:42 pm : link
In comment 13496328 Jon in NYC said:
Quote:
Are going nuts on twitter with the lineup news.

I'm guessing:

Altidore
Pulisic-Nagbe
Johnson-Bradley-Acosta-Yedlin
Brooks-Gonzalez-Cameron


Who the hell is Pulisic?
Twitter rumor is:  
Jon in NYC : 6/11/2017 6:46 pm : link
Guzan
Yedlin-Cameron-Gonzalez-Ream-Beasley
Bradley-Acosta
Pulisic-Wood-Arriola

Woah. Kind of like it through. Play defensive and hit them on the counter.
3-4-3  
B in ALB : 6/11/2017 7:37 pm : link
Wood, pulicuc, arriola

Beasley, Acosta, Bradley, yedlin

Ream, Cameron, Gonzalez

Guzan



Wow.
3-4-3  
jestersdead : 6/11/2017 7:38 pm : link
Pulisic, Wood, Arriola
Beasley, Acosta, Bradley, Yedlin
Team, Cameron, Gonzalez
Guzan

7 changes from the other night
7 changes?  
RDJR : 6/11/2017 7:40 pm : link
Lalas just said Arena is being practical with the quick turnaround and may be creating a built in excuse if we get beat bad.
They played three days ago  
JoeMoney19 : 6/11/2017 7:48 pm : link
Of course they are rotating some guys.
Perhaps  
Jim in Fairfax : 6/11/2017 7:52 pm : link
He is counting a switch of positions as a "change".
that can easily be a 5-4-1 depending on how the outside guys play.  
Del Shofner : 6/11/2017 7:59 pm : link
.
RE: Perhaps  
giants#1 : 6/11/2017 7:59 pm : link
In comment 13496356 Jim in Fairfax said:
Quote:
He is counting a switch of positions as a "change".


If the lineup above is accurate, its 7 new starters plus singe positional tweaks. Only pulisic, Bradley, Yedlen, and Cameron started Thursday by my count.
RE: that can easily be a 5-4-1 depending on how the outside guys play.  
B in ALB : 6/11/2017 8:05 pm : link
In comment 13496358 Del Shofner said:
Quote:
.


And that's what's going to happen. Mexico will dominate possession all night forcing Yedlin and Beasley back. The US will attempt to poach on a CA.
Wish he would have stayed with Howard.  
D-Rod : 6/11/2017 8:07 pm : link
Ream and Gonzalez worry me a bit too.
Going to be a long night  
Rick in Dallas : 6/11/2017 8:08 pm : link
They will definitely pack it in tonight.... Mexico is very talented
RE: RE: that can easily be a 5-4-1 depending on how the outside guys play.  
Del Shofner : 6/11/2017 8:09 pm : link
In comment 13496362 B in ALB said:
Quote:
In comment 13496358 Del Shofner said:


Quote:


.



And that's what's going to happen. Mexico will dominate possession all night forcing Yedlin and Beasley back. The US will attempt to poach on a CA.


Agree.
Who's this Pulisic guy?  
PatersonPlank : 6/11/2017 8:13 pm : link
I hear he can't be that good because he's young and people who don't follow soccer have never heard of him.
That lineup has reduced my excitement level  
hitdog42 : 6/11/2017 8:23 pm : link
Significantly.
Packing it in with a shaky defensive unit- less then ideal on many levels
Dirty fucks  
Gmen1982 : 6/11/2017 8:36 pm : link
.
Goal!  
JayBinQueens : 6/11/2017 8:37 pm : link
Bradley!
Got em!  
Gmen1982 : 6/11/2017 8:38 pm : link
.
...  
Man In The Box : 6/11/2017 8:38 pm : link
Very nice play by Bradley
Bradley!!  
RDJR : 6/11/2017 8:38 pm : link
.
Wow.  
AcidTest : 6/11/2017 8:39 pm : link
Great shot by Bradley. Terrible by the Mexican GK. Mexico should have received red cards for the fouls on Beasley and Wood.
What a..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/11/2017 8:39 pm : link
masterful shot!!!
I don't think the Mexicans saw that coming ...  
Del Shofner : 6/11/2017 8:40 pm : link
...
I'd  
AcidTest : 6/11/2017 8:47 pm : link
like to see us with more possession, but Mexico is really good.
Really  
AcidTest : 6/11/2017 8:56 pm : link
poor defense. But Chicarito almost scored a few minutes earlier for the same reason.
That was brutal  
Jon in NYC : 6/11/2017 8:56 pm : link
by Beasley. Absolutely worked by Vela.
Terrible..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/11/2017 8:56 pm : link
play by Guzan. Reaction time was poor
crap -  
Del Shofner : 6/11/2017 8:57 pm : link
left side defense a problem again. Beasley didn't do well but no one helped him either.
RE: Terrible..  
Jon in NYC : 6/11/2017 8:59 pm : link
In comment 13496392 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
play by Guzan. Reaction time was poor


Yeah Guzan kinda sucks. Surprised Howard isn't back in there after his performance against TnT
It appears that we will have to...  
Crispino : 6/11/2017 9:01 pm : link
beat the ref too. Mexico knows they've got free reign.
Another  
AcidTest : 6/11/2017 9:04 pm : link
foul on Mexico that wasn't called. Yedlin was bumped right off the ball.
This ref just allowed the Mexican player  
B in ALB : 6/11/2017 9:05 pm : link
To knock yedlin to the ground when yedlin had possession.

The fix is in folks.

From the obvious red card to this. And here we are. Not unexpected. Soccer being crooked again.
RE: Another  
illmatic : 6/11/2017 9:05 pm : link
In comment 13496399 AcidTest said:
Quote:
foul on Mexico that wasn't called. Yedlin was bumped right off the ball.


This is frustrating to watch. They should have gotten a red card five minutes into the game.
Two hand shove from behind and Mexico gets a corner...  
Crispino : 6/11/2017 9:07 pm : link
out of it. Unreal.
RE: This ref just allowed the Mexican player  
Gmen1982 : 6/11/2017 9:10 pm : link
In comment 13496400 B in ALB said:
Quote:
To knock yedlin to the ground when yedlin had possession.

The fix is in folks.

From the obvious red card to this. And here we are. Not unexpected. Soccer being crooked again.


The elbows were brutal. That play with yedlin is part of the game. You will seldom see that foul called at any level.
Beasley's been a good player for us but  
Del Shofner : 6/11/2017 9:10 pm : link
you'd think we could do better at this point, injury or no.
Two blown chances for goals for the US  
illmatic : 6/11/2017 9:11 pm : link
Gotta do better than that.
Gonzalez has to score there  
B in ALB : 6/11/2017 9:11 pm : link
Wide open net and header.
RE: RE: This ref just allowed the Mexican player  
B in ALB : 6/11/2017 9:13 pm : link
In comment 13496403 Gmen1982 said:
Quote:
In comment 13496400 B in ALB said:


Quote:


To knock yedlin to the ground when yedlin had possession.

The fix is in folks.

From the obvious red card to this. And here we are. Not unexpected. Soccer being crooked again.



The elbows were brutal. That play with yedlin is part of the game. You will seldom see that foul called at any level.


He was gaining possession of the ball and got shouldered causing a mistake. It's a foul anywhere in the world except Mexico.
His eyes looked closed on the replay.  
Gmen1982 : 6/11/2017 9:13 pm : link
Pulisic is so quick
So Mexican..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/11/2017 9:14 pm : link
guy acts like his leg is about to fall off, gets carted off and he's back on the field 2 minutes later.

Fuck them.

Hand ball and dive..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/11/2017 9:15 pm : link
by Chicarito there.
After all this  
B in ALB : 6/11/2017 9:16 pm : link
Yedlin gets a yellow?

This is a fucking joke.
But..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/11/2017 9:16 pm : link
then Yedlin gets a yellow.

Getting out of hand.
RE: RE: RE: This ref just allowed the Mexican player  
Gmen1982 : 6/11/2017 9:16 pm : link
In comment 13496408 B in ALB said:
Quote:
In comment 13496403 Gmen1982 said:


Quote:


In comment 13496400 B in ALB said:


Quote:


To knock yedlin to the ground when yedlin had possession.

The fix is in folks.

From the obvious red card to this. And here we are. Not unexpected. Soccer being crooked again.



The elbows were brutal. That play with yedlin is part of the game. You will seldom see that foul called at any level.



He was gaining possession of the ball and got shouldered causing a mistake. It's a foul anywhere in the world except Mexico.


Neither had possession yet. Really nothing compared to the elbows.
The  
AcidTest : 6/11/2017 9:16 pm : link
elbow on Wood reminded me of the foul by Mexico against Cobi Jones during the 2002 World Cup. And that was a straight red.

Yellow on Yedlin. I have no problem with that, but there is nothing on Mexico. Not even one yellow.
lol  
Jim in Scranton : 6/11/2017 9:17 pm : link
.
Decent half. Mexico's goal should not have happened.  
Gmen1982 : 6/11/2017 9:20 pm : link
Gotta give Beasley help in the middle. Most defenders will be beat one on one there. Where was the help?
RE: After all this  
GMenLTS : 6/11/2017 9:20 pm : link
In comment 13496412 B in ALB said:
Quote:
Yedlin gets a yellow?

This is a fucking joke.


That was pathetic given the rest of the half
Not  
AcidTest : 6/11/2017 9:22 pm : link
bad. We have some speed on the wings. But we blew some chances, and had too many defensive lapses. I'd like to see better midfield play, but that's tough to ask for against Mexico. I assume we'll bring on Dempsey as a substitute some time in the second half.

The real story of course is the referring. Mexico should have had at least one red, and a few other yellow cards.
.  
Go Terps : 6/11/2017 9:22 pm : link
Compare playing with a new format with Arena to under Klinsmann. Night and day.

Bradley and Acosta are doing great work alternating pressing the Mexican defenders when they're in possession. It's making a difference.

This should be a dangerous team a year from now.
The shape, the responsibilities, the mission  
Joey from GlenCove : 6/11/2017 9:24 pm : link
what a fucking difference when you have a coach

I really don't even think this is close to our strongest lineup

BUT Man these concacaf games are an eye sore.
Also weird that wood missed that volley  
Joey from GlenCove : 6/11/2017 9:26 pm : link
and that lead to a counterattack goal
I just realized..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/11/2017 9:26 pm : link
that Arena resembles a rough, puffy Tommy Hilfiger.
Our  
AcidTest : 6/11/2017 9:38 pm : link
passing isn't crisp, resulting in too many turnovers.
I'm sorry but I don't get the Guzan  
B in ALB : 6/11/2017 9:44 pm : link
in for Howard change. Not digging that at all.
Guzan is not a national level keeper  
Go Terps : 6/11/2017 9:44 pm : link
.
RE: I'm sorry but I don't get the Guzan  
AcidTest : 6/11/2017 9:45 pm : link
In comment 13496439 B in ALB said:
Quote:
in for Howard change. Not digging that at all.


Agreed. We're packed in so much on defense, that when we do get the ball, we have no one forward. It looks like another game, where we'll have to score on a set piece to win.
The US would..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/11/2017 9:45 pm : link
undoubtably benefit vs. almost any other country if they called simulation more often, but they will never reduce it on a large scale when they allow guys to flop in the box without any repercussions.
Our  
AcidTest : 6/11/2017 9:46 pm : link
guy gets taken down, and no call. Not even a foul.
this officiating is truly fascinating to watch  
GMenLTS : 6/11/2017 9:47 pm : link
.
That's a third egregious and ugly foul by Salcedo  
B in ALB : 6/11/2017 9:49 pm : link
Referee does nothing. Typical Mexico game in concacaf. Pathetic
Worst thing..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/11/2017 9:50 pm : link
is that we rarely embellish, so a foul on us is usually as egregious as it appears.
RE: Worst thing..  
GMenLTS : 6/11/2017 9:52 pm : link
In comment 13496447 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
is that we rarely embellish, so a foul on us is usually as egregious as it appears.


We have to be one of the least flopping teams in the world and honestly it feels like we're punished for it somehow.
What is protcal for coaches to talk to refs during games?  
superspynyg : 6/11/2017 9:53 pm : link
Can the US protest this game if they lose due to bias refund?
RE: That's a third egregious and ugly foul by Salcedo  
Gmen1982 : 6/11/2017 9:53 pm : link
In comment 13496445 B in ALB said:
Quote:
Referee does nothing. Typical Mexico game in concacaf. Pathetic


It's really not as bad as the complaints here. We are getting fouls called and getting away with some. Yes there has been more for Mexico but it is not costing us the game.
RE: RE: Worst thing..  
B in ALB : 6/11/2017 9:53 pm : link
In comment 13496448 GMenLTS said:
Quote:
In comment 13496447 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


is that we rarely embellish, so a foul on us is usually as egregious as it appears.



We have to be one of the least flopping teams in the world and honestly it feels like we're punished for it somehow.


Yup. Absolutely. The Japanese are similar.
RE: What is protcal for coaches to talk to refs during games?  
superspynyg : 6/11/2017 9:54 pm : link
In comment 13496449 superspynyg said:
Quote:
Can the US protest this game if they lose due to bias refund?


Reffing not refund
RE: RE: That's a third egregious and ugly foul by Salcedo  
B in ALB : 6/11/2017 9:55 pm : link
In comment 13496450 Gmen1982 said:
Quote:
In comment 13496445 B in ALB said:


Quote:


Referee does nothing. Typical Mexico game in concacaf. Pathetic



It's really not as bad as the complaints here. We are getting fouls called and getting away with some. Yes there has been more for Mexico but it is not costing us the game.


Not costing the game yet. But that's not really the point.

The point is that the referring is an epidemic when it comes to Mexico. It's completely absurd at this point.
Holy crap  
jestersdead : 6/11/2017 10:01 pm : link
Lucky break on that free kick.

It's time for the subs to come in and inject some energy for the last 20 mins
Damn that was a nice hit  
Gmen1982 : 6/11/2017 10:01 pm : link
.
To be fair..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/11/2017 10:02 pm : link
reffing in FIFA has been corrupt. Reffing in Mexico has been corrupt. We're talking about an organization that will probably find a way to make Qatar competitive in 5 years, and it won't be from a talent standpoint.
Ahhhh Bradley!  
GMenLTS : 6/11/2017 10:03 pm : link
so close
This is awful to watch  
illmatic : 6/11/2017 10:14 pm : link
You just see Mexicans falling to the ground for 90 minutes. It's expected but still.
More  
AcidTest : 6/11/2017 10:17 pm : link
often than not, we end up knocking the ball right to the Mexicans.

There was our chance.
UGHHHHHH  
GMenLTS : 6/11/2017 10:18 pm : link
sonofa
Mexico  
AcidTest : 6/11/2017 10:18 pm : link
has had a lot of success playing the ball wide to our right.
The  
AcidTest : 6/11/2017 10:20 pm : link
lack of midfield play means we have to rely on the long ball.
held on  
GMenLTS : 6/11/2017 10:23 pm : link
goddamn #10 had it
A  
AcidTest : 6/11/2017 10:23 pm : link
tie is about as good as we could have expected, especially given the horrendous referring. But the lack of midfield play is a real problem.
a point on the road at Azteca -  
Del Shofner : 6/11/2017 10:24 pm : link
works for me.
Fuck yeah  
B in ALB : 6/11/2017 10:24 pm : link
Amazing what happens when your team is properly coached and has a clear tactical vision.
Wet Jenny Taft  
B in ALB : 6/11/2017 10:27 pm : link
Yes please.
Are the Yellow cards  
section125 : 6/11/2017 10:30 pm : link
cleared after this game or do they keep them for ever? I know WC they are cleared in the semis(?)
Solid sports day today  
B in ALB : 6/11/2017 10:40 pm : link
Yankees cock clap Buck and the Orioles again.

And the Yanks get a well deserved result in El Dumpsterfire Stadium.
Gutsy effort  
Kyle in NY : 6/11/2017 11:14 pm : link
Nice result, really excited for how this team might look a year from now.

No more Guzan though please.
Gotta give Bruce Arena a shitload of credit.  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 6/11/2017 11:24 pm : link
I was skeptical about the lineup/alignment before the game, but the players executed the plan far better than they would have 365 days ago. There were mistakes on the back end, but for the most part (outside of the goal), the mistakes were made on the outside. The midfielders stayed extremely active on both ends of the pitch most of the night.

Cameron was great in the second half.
Bruce  
Jon in NYC : 6/12/2017 12:08 am : link
came in with a plan, relayed it clearly to his players, and they executed.

Contrast that to the kind of shitshow JK ran. No plan, players out of position, no strategy to come up with points against a better opponent on the road.
Hard Not To Be Happy With 1 Point  
Jeffrey : 6/12/2017 8:15 am : link
The lineup we started was workmanlike but not as talented as the Mexicans. I think Arena deserves kudos for adapting the game-plan to the players he chose to put on the field. Best I have seen Bradley play in some time. Also like his pairing with Acosta last night. Cameron played very well too, particularly in the second half. Ream was steady, as was Gonzales.

Considering the pack it in strategy it was a good showing for the defense. One quibble, Ariola is good moving forward, but is not a good defensive pairing with Yedlin and the two could not control their side of the field. Mexico was able to move the ball wide at will and missed on several crosses from that point.

Beasley is purely stopgap and would have preferred Johnson over there, but I assume that Arena wanted a veteran on the field to help the younger kids. Not as bothered by Guzan as others. Really want Pulisic and Nagbe to continue to play together. Like the effort of Woods as well. With time this group will develop chemistry up top.
We really..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/12/2017 8:31 am : link
need to find a replacement for Beasley because he's not going to hold up against stiffer competition and he'll be a year older. I'm also hoping we can get one more year out of Howard.

Guzan seems like one of those guys who is adequate, but never really carries the team. I've seen epic performances from Howard and good performances from Guzan, and in the World Cup, absent a dominant team, you'll need at least one epic performance.
Thank God  
Mr. Bungle : 6/12/2017 8:32 am : link
Klinsmann is gone.
Can anyone offer an opinion on why we're so tactically....  
Crispino : 6/12/2017 9:05 am : link
inferior to the top teams? The Mexicans, like most good teams, put on a display of ball movement against us. They play in control and seem to have as much possession as they like. We play dump and chase and turn the ball over after two or three touches. We always look like the inferior side against quality opposition. The women's team has reached elite levels. Why can't the men's team?
can't say enough about that goal by Bradley  
PaulBlakeTSU : 6/12/2017 9:10 am : link
Cameron made some huge plays. Overall, I thought our defense was poor though, and we seemed to luck out to come away with a point. Has Yedlin regressed? He just seems sloppier than when he broke out at the last World Cup.

I hate red cards, but it was bush league that Mexico didn't get even a yellow in the first few minutes.

Pulisic may not have lit up the stat sheet, but he had a few plays and moments that show that his instincts are off the charts compared to typical American players.

I also liked some of the things i saw from Bobby Wood. Strong kid, but it didn't seem like we were aggressive enough on the flanks for him to utilize his holding play.
I don't..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/12/2017 9:17 am : link
know if I would say the US is tactically inferior.

Quote:
Can anyone offer an opinion on why we're so tactically....
Crispino : 9:05 am : link : reply
inferior to the top teams? The Mexicans, like most good teams, put on a display of ball movement against us. They play in control and seem to have as much possession as they like. We play dump and chase and turn the ball over after two or three touches. We always look like the inferior side against quality opposition. The women's team has reached elite levels. Why can't the men's team?


In the past couple of World Cups (as well as qualifying), we've dictated the pace and style of play in many games, and we've used the tactic to counter-attack against some of the more aggressive sides.

The question on why we aren't elite yet is a different one. We are firmly in the vast middle of countries in terms of skill, and although we have a lot of youth participating in soccer, we still don't have the strong youth academies other places do. For an American athlete, they have a ton of sport choices growing up. For the average South American or African (and even most Europeans), they have pretty much one outlet for sport - soccer. Kids grow up kicking a ball, passing a ball, learning skill with the ball.

But even going back to your original observation - you shouldn't use last night as being indicative of the US style of play. Winning at Azteca is extremely difficult. We've only come away with points a few times there. Playing for a tie and staying in the top 3 of the group was the main objective, especially when Mexico equalized.

CONCACAF is a marathon survived by playing on subpar fields, facing biased officiating and facing unruly and sometimes dangerous fans.
RE: Can anyone offer an opinion on why we're so tactically....  
Jon in NYC : 6/12/2017 9:28 am : link
In comment 13496623 Crispino said:
Quote:
inferior to the top teams? The Mexicans, like most good teams, put on a display of ball movement against us. They play in control and seem to have as much possession as they like. We play dump and chase and turn the ball over after two or three touches. We always look like the inferior side against quality opposition. The women's team has reached elite levels. Why can't the men's team?


I'm not sure if you mean tactically inferior or technically inferior?

Tactically we were in full control of that game. Mexico registered one shot on goal all evening. The US had more.

Technically, Mexico has the edge, but not by a whole lot. They have better attacking players, but the US has the edge in both midfield and defense imo.
US  
Jon in NYC : 6/12/2017 9:37 am : link
team looks to be taking some heat on here, and I'm really not sure why.

LB is as strong as it's been with Villafana, Johnson, Beasley as a trio.

Cameron, Brooks, Gonzalez, Ream are all playing at a high level in top leagues.

Yedlin had a great game yesterday imo. He had a really tough assignment going up against Lozano, who is about to be Man City bound, and more than held his own. Lozano was frustrated by the end, plain and simple. There's a reason Mexico moved him to the other side against Beasley.

In CM, Bradley is finally back to playing the position he should be at, and Acosta is the future. He put in a fantastic two way performance yesterday. Depth here is a concern though.

Then you have depth up front with Nagbe, Pulisic, Johnson, Arriola out wide and Altidore (who has been the best he's ever been imo) and Wood coming on strong.

The USMNT is in really good hands. You should feel confident in this team.
Agree with Jon  
Jeffrey : 6/12/2017 9:41 am : link
Tactically, Arena did exactly what he had to for that game and with the players on the field. Technically, we are several Pulisic-type players away from the better FIFA teams but it is coming.

As much as some hate to see Americans leave for overseas professional leagues, until our youth system improves the best technical training is coming abroad and in many instances our younger players who do go to Europe are playing catch-up in terms of technical development. Americans going to Europe are far from polished products. Cannot fault MLS for this as much of the skills development has to occur before the age of 16, plus there is still no way that MLS can compete with European teams in terms of offering contracts to younger , unproven players.
Jon, you're right about my characterization being off.  
Crispino : 6/12/2017 9:46 am : link
Technically inferior is more on point. We seem to lack the ability to control possession and sustain pressure. At one point they showed us trailing in possession 76-24%. It evened out a bit later in the second half.
Very good post..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/12/2017 9:46 am : link
Quote:
US
Jon in NYC : 9:37 am : link : reply
team looks to be taking some heat on here, and I'm really not sure why.

LB is as strong as it's been with Villafana, Johnson, Beasley as a trio.

Cameron, Brooks, Gonzalez, Ream are all playing at a high level in top leagues.

Yedlin had a great game yesterday imo. He had a really tough assignment going up against Lozano, who is about to be Man City bound, and more than held his own. Lozano was frustrated by the end, plain and simple. There's a reason Mexico moved him to the other side against Beasley.

In CM, Bradley is finally back to playing the position he should be at, and Acosta is the future. He put in a fantastic two way performance yesterday. Depth here is a concern though.

Then you have depth up front with Nagbe, Pulisic, Johnson, Arriola out wide and Altidore (who has been the best he's ever been imo) and Wood coming on strong.

The USMNT is in really good hands. You should feel confident in this team.


Beasley is probably going to retire, but this is a solid assessment of the team.

We are in excellent hands and we seem to have gained an identity that we lacked under Klinsmann.
Crispino..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/12/2017 9:49 am : link
We don't lack the technical skill to keep possession or sustain pressure.

Our tactic last night was to counter-attack. Don't confuse that with being technically inferior.

You can look back at several matches where we do dictate the play. It depends on the opponent and what tactics give us the best chance to win.
RE: Jon, you're right about my characterization being off.  
Jon in NYC : 6/12/2017 9:50 am : link
In comment 13496669 Crispino said:
Quote:
Technically inferior is more on point. We seem to lack the ability to control possession and sustain pressure. At one point they showed us trailing in possession 76-24%. It evened out a bit later in the second half.


But that's okay. When you're playing for a point at Azteca, you let Mexico pass the ball around the center circle as much as they'd like. If you re-watch the game, keep an eye on how Bradley and Acosta drop off and don't high press their midfielders until they've crossed the halfway mark. The kind of possession Mexico had doesn't hurt anyone.

Again, they had one shot on goal.
I agree, last night was very promising  
Kyle in NY : 6/12/2017 9:59 am : link
We easily could have won that game. The U.S. missed some absolute sitters in the box. That header for Gonzalez, the keeper is completely out of position. Anywhere on net and it's a goal, but he just whiffed.

A lot of positives to take from this weekend
RE: I agree, last night was very promising  
Jon in NYC : 6/12/2017 10:13 am : link
In comment 13496695 Kyle in NY said:
Quote:
We easily could have won that game. The U.S. missed some absolute sitters in the box. That header for Gonzalez, the keeper is completely out of position. Anywhere on net and it's a goal, but he just whiffed.

A lot of positives to take from this weekend


Bobby Wood had a tap in as well to make it 2-0, and he just swung and missed.
Yep  
Kyle in NY : 6/12/2017 10:25 am : link
and the Mexico goal came right after
Panama is at home tomorrow night against a relatively weak Honduras  
Del Shofner : 6/12/2017 10:46 am : link
team, and if Panama picks up the 3 points they will move back ahead of us in the Hex table. Our home game against Panama later on is looming pretty large.
awfully rosy picture  
Pep22 : 6/12/2017 11:04 am : link
considering Mexico controlled possession, owned the territorial battle and had more chances.

I'd give positive grades to Bradley, Cameron, Yedlin but I thought:

-Wood played hard but didn't do a thing that showed an iota of skill

-Resorting to Beasley was pathetic (old, lacks pace/size, no threat to do anything but desperate slide tackles)

-Gonzalez was good defensively but was awful on nearly every touch that wasn't a blasted clear

-Altidore is one lazy player; do we not have any strikers with skill/pace? Is the kid from Iceland out of the picture? Is Jordan Morris viewed as a good prospect?
Guzan  
Pep22 : 6/12/2017 11:06 am : link
is okay, but surely we have better than that? Hopefully, we have more high end guys in the pipeline.
Jozy's effort was rather embarrassing.  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 6/12/2017 11:08 am : link
If a guy is going to sub in, he needs to put in 20-30 HARD minutes of activity. Jozy moseyed around like he had just played earlier that day.
Huh??  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/12/2017 11:14 am : link
Quote:
awfully rosy picture
Pep22 : 11:04 am : link : reply
considering Mexico controlled possession, owned the territorial battle and had more chances.


They had one shot on goal, a whiffed volley in the box and a free kick that hit the bar.

It isn't like they were giving an offensive onslaught like the Belgians and we simply survived.
And I'm not really..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/12/2017 11:16 am : link
sure what people were expecting of Jozy. He's pretty much the 10th man back on D and with so many players behind him, what do you expect him to do when the play heads the other direction?

His interference was what allowed Pulisic to get loose for the late attempt - the US's last chance to score.
The conceded goal notwithstanding,  
Go Terps : 6/12/2017 11:21 am : link
yesterday was an excellent performance. They achieved exactly what they set out to.
If you wanted to see a shitty team yesterday,  
Go Terps : 6/12/2017 11:22 am : link
you should have checked out England. Absolutely brutal against Scotland.
Amazing difference isince last Mexico game  
The Turk : 6/12/2017 11:31 am : link
Arena changes formation with a plan, works the formation and plan through training, gets buy in from the players and gets a result in Azteca. Klinsman makes up a plan a day or two before the game, switches the formation, gets zero buy in, watches things fall apart for 30 minutes, lets the players change the formation back and loses in Columbus.

If Wood makes any sort of contact on the sitter in the box, US either goes up 2 nil or at least avoids the counter. Instead he whiffs and Mexico goes off to the races.

My only complaint is if you are going to short corner 6 out of 7 times, there is no reason to bring forward all 3 center forwards. Allows for the counter (lucky Ochoa mishit a kick) when possession is lost.
Even on the conceded goal..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/12/2017 11:35 am : link
I'm hoping the key players aren't critical pieces in Russia

Quote:
The conceded goal notwithstanding,
Go Terps : 11:21 am : link : reply
yesterday was an excellent performance. They achieved exactly what they set out to.


That play was a combination of Beasley allowing space, the interior defense not collapsing quickly and Guzan taking too long to anticipate the shot and react. And it was a fantastic shot by Vela.
I read recently that the USA is 'in good shape' to qualify for the WC  
Mike in Long Beach : 6/12/2017 11:38 am : link
But as you guys noted, Panama is only 1 point behind us and has a good chance of passing us in their next match.

So why is that I'm getting the vibe people consider us to be a likely qualifier, even though from what it seems to me on paper is no more than a 60% chance (at best)?

Is it because whomever we'd play from Asia if we finish 4th would be very bad?
I gave Jozy credit for his defensive effort in the previous match,  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 6/12/2017 11:38 am : link
so it's not too much to ask to see him be more active as a sub. That doesn't mean he's going to create 10 chances or create a bunch of turnovers/pressure in the midfield, but just some more effort.
FMIC  
Go Terps : 6/12/2017 11:44 am : link
Yeah none of those guys should even be making the trip. I'd have liked to have seen Justin Morrow get a shot in Beasley's place.

I thought the move to a 3-/5-man backline was very interesting, and the players really reacted well to it. That was the best game I've ever seen Cameron play for USMNT, and both Gonzalez and Ream (who has had some struggles with USMNT) played well. I also thought it was a better use of Yedlin, who is still frankly a brutally poor defender.

It's worth remembering that in 2014 the teams that played with a 3-/5-man back line performed well as some of the bigger countries had difficulty breaking it down. Costa Rica, Mexico, and Netherlands all did well with it. I don't know if it's the way to go exclusively but depending on our WC group (assuming we qualify) it would be a good thing to have in our pocket. If we end up grouped with a highly technical team like Spain, France, or Argentina it could be a great tool.
Mexico plays touch line to touch line  
B in ALB : 6/12/2017 11:50 am : link
and they're very good at creating space, then attacking gaps in the back line. The US lineup last night allowed Mexico to play to the touch lines but the back line allowed virtually no gaps for them to play behind (other than the goal). Tactically, it was a pretty genius plan from Arena and executed flawlessly save for one excellent series of passing from Mexico.

My question at this point is can the US do even better against Mexico despite its latest plan to drop back, defend and try to quickly counter?
RE: I read recently that the USA is 'in good shape' to qualify for the WC  
Del Shofner : 6/12/2017 11:52 am : link
In comment 13496924 Mike in Long Beach said:
Quote:
But as you guys noted, Panama is only 1 point behind us and has a good chance of passing us in their next match.

So why is that I'm getting the vibe people consider us to be a likely qualifier, even though from what it seems to me on paper is no more than a 60% chance (at best)?

Is it because whomever we'd play from Asia if we finish 4th would be very bad?


No, not because of the Asia team, although if we have to go that route, that should be a winnable game.

The short answer is that Panama still has to play us here in the USA and that should be a win for us. The longer answer - and I won't go game-by-game - is that I see Panama probably getting 7 points out of its remaining 5 games and I see the USA probably getting at least 8 points out of its remaining 4 games - with the swing factor again being that Panama game here in the USA.

So we should be able to maintain our lead over Panama. The other teams (Honduras and T&T) have no chance.
You've sort of hit on it..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/12/2017 11:54 am : link
in several points:

Quote:
I read recently that the USA is 'in good shape' to qualify for the WC
Mike in Long Beach : 11:38 am : link : reply
But as you guys noted, Panama is only 1 point behind us and has a good chance of passing us in their next match.

So why is that I'm getting the vibe people consider us to be a likely qualifier, even though from what it seems to me on paper is no more than a 60% chance (at best)?

Is it because whomever we'd play from Asia if we finish 4th would be very bad?


First off, we are done playing Mexico. We have 4 matches left(the rest of the group), including ones against T&T and Honduras. While we could lose one, we will be favored to win all of them.

Secondly, we are as close to 2nd place as 4th. We only trail Costa rica by 1 in goal differential.

Thirdly, if somehow we end up in 4th place, we will b e favored to win the match against the team from Oceania - which is exactly how Mexico qualified last world cup.

I'd put our chances of qualifying at higher than 60% - more like 80% or higher.
RE: You've sort of hit on it..  
mgp : 6/12/2017 12:14 pm : link
In comment 13496962 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:


Thirdly, if somehow we end up in 4th place, we will b e favored to win the match against the team from Oceania - which is exactly how Mexico qualified last world cup.


One small correction to the above: this cycle the 4th place CONCACAF finisher plays the 5th place Asian finisher, not the first place Oceania. I'm not sure exactly how the inter-continental playoff works, but it rotates.

As of now, the 4th place CONCACAF team would play the winner of an Australia - Uzbekistan playoff (they have some games to play still).
mgp..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/12/2017 12:15 pm : link
thanks for clarifying that.

I didn't know that was the case.
Thanks for all the info.  
Mike in Long Beach : 6/12/2017 12:20 pm : link
I don't really know much about the other less teams you guys noted (i.e. Honduras). While favored, I suppose I incorrectly saw all the games remaining as losable. But I don't have my finger on the pulse of it like you guys, do.
A little ridiculous to give Arena credit for packing it in  
Gmen1982 : 6/12/2017 12:20 pm : link
and settling for counters, while saying Klinsman never did that. I get it, he played guys out of position. Let's not act like this is night and day all of the sudden. I think that it's more of getting the best players on the field. There was no tactical brilliance to the gameplan.
RE: A little ridiculous to give Arena credit for packing it in  
Go Terps : 6/12/2017 12:32 pm : link
In comment 13496990 Gmen1982 said:
Quote:
and settling for counters, while saying Klinsman never did that. I get it, he played guys out of position. Let's not act like this is night and day all of the sudden. I think that it's more of getting the best players on the field. There was no tactical brilliance to the gameplan.


It IS night and day. Klinsmann may have tried to do the same, but his ability to execute any plan was so miserable that we have no way of actually knowing.
RE: A little ridiculous to give Arena credit for packing it in  
Jon in NYC : 6/12/2017 12:34 pm : link
In comment 13496990 Gmen1982 said:
Quote:
and settling for counters, while saying Klinsman never did that. I get it, he played guys out of position. Let's not act like this is night and day all of the sudden. I think that it's more of getting the best players on the field. There was no tactical brilliance to the gameplan.


Holy shit.
RE: RE: A little ridiculous to give Arena credit for packing it in  
B in ALB : 6/12/2017 12:36 pm : link
In comment 13497008 Jon in NYC said:
Quote:
In comment 13496990 Gmen1982 said:


Quote:


and settling for counters, while saying Klinsman never did that. I get it, he played guys out of position. Let's not act like this is night and day all of the sudden. I think that it's more of getting the best players on the field. There was no tactical brilliance to the gameplan.



Holy shit.


Holy shit indeed.
It was..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/12/2017 12:47 pm : link
most indeed a tactical brilliance last night. I can't say it any better than this:

Quote:
When you're playing for a point at Azteca, you let Mexico pass the ball around the center circle as much as they'd like. If you re-watch the game, keep an eye on how Bradley and Acosta drop off and don't high press their midfielders until they've crossed the halfway mark. The kind of possession Mexico had doesn't hurt anyone.

Again, they had one shot on goal.


We played Mexico in the US the previous time and lost because we had no tactical plan. You might disagree with the tactics last night (not sure why you would), but it is damn difficult to say the tactics didn't work or weren't effective.
Let's not forget how difficult it is to get a result at Azteca  
Go Terps : 6/12/2017 12:51 pm : link
Mexico's record there in World Cup qualifying since the stadium opened in 1966 is 40 wins, 7 draws, and 2 losses. That place is a fucking meat grinder.

This was the same guy  
B in ALB : 6/12/2017 12:51 pm : link
who thought the refereeing last night was fair. No big deal. Ref was calling it both ways.
.  
Go Terps : 6/12/2017 12:55 pm : link
Oh, and after watching Kellyn Acosta and Bradley working together yesterday is there anyone that can say Jermaine Jones doesn't completely suck?
I just don't know  
Jon in NYC : 6/12/2017 12:56 pm : link
how someone can see the US team lose to Mexico 2-1 at home, and then see them draw Mexico on the road, with basically the same team, and give the coach 0 credit.

It boggles the mind.
RE: .  
Jon in NYC : 6/12/2017 12:57 pm : link
In comment 13497043 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Oh, and after watching Kellyn Acosta and Bradley working together yesterday is there anyone that can say Jermaine Jones doesn't completely suck?


Jones may suck, but lets not diminish Acosta. He's a stud.
RE: RE: .  
Go Terps : 6/12/2017 1:01 pm : link
In comment 13497047 Jon in NYC said:
Quote:
In comment 13497043 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Oh, and after watching Kellyn Acosta and Bradley working together yesterday is there anyone that can say Jermaine Jones doesn't completely suck?



Jones may suck, but lets not diminish Acosta. He's a stud.


Not meant to diminish Acosta at all. He's surpassed "great prospect" status and is now simply an excellent player. And his impact on Bradley (vs. how Bradley played with Jones) is apparent.
RE: Even on the conceded goal..  
RobCarpenter : 6/12/2017 1:04 pm : link
In comment 13496916 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
I'm hoping the key players aren't critical pieces in Russia



Quote:


The conceded goal notwithstanding,
Go Terps : 11:21 am : link : reply
yesterday was an excellent performance. They achieved exactly what they set out to.



That play was a combination of Beasley allowing space, the interior defense not collapsing quickly and Guzan taking too long to anticipate the shot and react. And it was a fantastic shot by Vela.


That goal wasn't on Beasley, he's defending the outside there to keep him from getting past him and getting to goal.

The backtracking defenders -- especially Cameron -- needed to provide help on that play and didn't. Cameron had a terrific second half but he was closest to help on the goal and he ran into no man's land.

Other thoughts:

As to the quality of the U.S. play, the US had 7 corners and Mexico had 9. Even in a defensive posture they were still able to pressure Mexico from time to time.

I also thought Pulisic did a good job in the first half of giving the ball to his teammates with his first touch, but they usually didn't hold onto it.
Rob  
Go Terps : 6/12/2017 1:17 pm : link
I don't know about that...Carlos Vela is heavily left footed. I would have preferred to see Beasley shade him the other way and force him towards the touch line. That said though it was a great play by Vela...he's a beast.
RE: RE: Even on the conceded goal..  
ColHowPepper : 6/12/2017 1:33 pm : link
i saw this exactly as Rob did; I was so incensed with Cameron's easy lope into "position" (not), that I was tempted to excoriate it him here. Good thing I didn't because he did have a solid 2H.

That goal was not on Beasley--how far do you want him to cross along the 18 into the middle of the pitch before someone closes on Vela? It didn't happen.

It did look like Guzan was a bit slow to push off. The TV crew indicated (maybe noted here during the match?) that Arena tapped Guzan because he was leary of playing TH twice within three days lest he aggravate his groin. He missed many months with that injury, and like hammies they are a bitch to re-hab with success. So that made sense to me.

Speaking of the US announcing crew--and it will be all US for the WC as announced by Fox (? Is that the network), too bad. Much prefer Ian Darke and the knowledgeable crowd. It may be appealing to some, but I dislike the homer content and supposed nuance of the commentary.

And that brings me to the commentary on Salcedo, and reaction on the thread: I have no idea whether any given crew of referees is corrupt or corruptible. And Salcedo did throw an elbow into Wood's face, possible SFP, maybe even more probable than not. But I think few here have a good grasp how difficult it is for a three man team, the center and two ARs, to see the entire field, especially when you have an experienced player who knows how to shield his action using his and his victim's bodies from the view(s) of the closest official.

Only on TV, with serial replays and in slo-mo yet, does the announcing crew become all knowing: "Well, that was certainly a Red Card for SFP and no reason for it not called." Unless the crew members didn't see it! This is not being pro-ref or anti-US, it's a fact of the game that a whole shit-load of crap goes on outside the view of the refs.

Compare last night's Game 6 of Penguins-Predators. The referee at the Pens' end of the ice was in absolutely awful position, on the GL up against the far boards, and from his view he lost sight of the puck as it was trickling from under Murray's body, to be poked in by Sissons, but Pollock blew his whistle because he lost sight of it. Never mind that he should have been moving toward the back of the net really fast. It was a game and SCP Finals-changing decision.

But back to USMNT, yes, Bradley's best game for the team in many months, the goal was just the cherry on top. I thought Arena was most apt to be second guessed for being slow to bring Nagbe in, same sub. Much better movement in MF, and the MF play didn't bother me that much at all. Pulisic is elusive and such a threat; he was effective because he had to be taken account of. The big surprise to me was that Mexico did not target him physically much at all, off ball or on.
ColHow..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/12/2017 1:39 pm : link
the only caveat to the refereeing discussion is that Mexico doesn't have an all-time great record at Azteca just because of talent. There have been so many questionable calls and favorable rulings that the officials have given themselves little wiggle room for error without it appearing to be biased.

Everytime opponents enter that arena they have to overcome physical play that often isn't punished. I just think last night was more of a function of poor refereeing than bias. If they were corrupt, they'd have given Bradley another yellow, forcing him to miss the next match, or called one of the several dives in the box as penalties.

Letting some of the wing play go and then producing the yellow on Yeldin was horseshit.
RE: Rob  
RobCarpenter : 6/12/2017 1:55 pm : link
In comment 13497069 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I don't know about that...Carlos Vela is heavily left footed. I would have preferred to see Beasley shade him the other way and force him towards the touch line. That said though it was a great play by Vela...he's a beast.


As a defender you should push him to where you have extra help, and that's what Beasley did. Three defenders ran past him, only one of them was actually marking someone.

Anyone who doubts whether Arena's tactics worked needs to watch that play, if the US doesn't play a defensive minded match then those transition plays would have happened much more often.
RE: ColHow....  
ColHowPepper : 6/12/2017 4:05 pm : link
In comment 13497101 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
the only caveat to the refereeing discussion is that Mexico doesn't have an all-time great record at Azteca just because of talent. There have been so many questionable calls and favorable rulings that the officials have given themselves little wiggle room for error without it appearing to be biased.

Everytime opponents enter that arena they have to overcome physical play that often isn't punished. I just think last night was more of a function of poor refereeing than bias. If they were corrupt, they'd have given Bradley another yellow, forcing him to miss the next match, or called one of the several dives in the box as penalties.

Letting some of the wing play go and then producing the yellow on Yeldin was horseshit.

This is a reasonable post, I feel, and that's without having a concrete, extensive historical sense of the shenanigans that might prevail at Azteca. And there's a reason that Aguilar the center ref was selected, in part, because he has a pretty extensive resume at this level. You may say that should connote that the fix is in. But just as certain teams and players enter a match and certain venues apprehensive that the match and venue might be bigger than their capability, that's part of the refs' mindsets as well.

So, that could well play in to your narrative--and again, I don't use that term pejoratively here, there may well be an intimidation factor, especially at the outset. (Recall Howard Webb's "freeze" when DeJong went studs up on Alonso).

I agree that the officiating was uneven, agree that Bradley was (pretty crazily) walking too close to the edge, and agree that the inconsistency came into relief with the yellow on Yedlin--and that was a clumsy, all-too-visible attempt at a tackle on his part. Games ebb and flow, skill levels take over or recede, physicality is quiescent and then erupts, crowd noise, coaches' tactics, and it always comes down to judgment and game management: admittedly, these weren't too good in the opening 20 minutes. Salcedo's hits--as I said, I don't think, and I don't want to believe, that--they were seen and not called. Whenever players go up to head the ball, it's less often the case that elbows don't go flying as part of "leverage" (real or imagined) to get higher, so from a poor angle, Aguilar and/or the AR on that half (very poor view from across the field and two bodies in), the intent and contact could well have been missed.
RE: RE: RE: A little ridiculous to give Arena credit for packing it in  
Joey from GlenCove : 6/12/2017 4:14 pm : link
In comment 13497011 B in ALB said:
Quote:
In comment 13497008 Jon in NYC said:


Quote:


In comment 13496990 Gmen1982 said:


Quote:


and settling for counters, while saying Klinsman never did that. I get it, he played guys out of position. Let's not act like this is night and day all of the sudden. I think that it's more of getting the best players on the field. There was no tactical brilliance to the gameplan.



Holy shit.



Holy shit indeed.


ditto
Arena Had A Smart Plan  
Jeffrey : 6/12/2017 4:18 pm : link
Arena had a solid gameplan that fit the players on the field. I do not credit him with brilliance, but rather pragmatic planning that accounts for the skills of the players on the field. Given the skills of the players he utilized and the strengths of the opponent and the environment, he chose the only sensible tactic he could to maximize the American team's chance for a point. Intelligent? Yes. Brilliant? Let's give it a while and see how he handles Costa Rica in the Fall.

In contrast, JK was always tinkering with positions and mixing and matching players as if somehow the players would suddenly develop into multi-dimensional threats. His approach was unconventional to say the least.
RE: This was the same guy  
Gmen1982 : 6/12/2017 5:27 pm : link
In comment 13497038 B in ALB said:
Quote:
who thought the refereeing last night was fair. No big deal. Ref was calling it both ways.


Listening to you bitch about the Reffing is like the knocks fans when they played the cavs. I didn't say it was fair I said it wasn't as bad as some of you were making it. And I stand by arena not being a tactical genius last night. packing it in against a team we should be better than does not excite me. It was a good result but we shouldn't ever have to pack it in.
You guys are just trying to make everything seem like  
Gmen1982 : 6/12/2017 5:35 pm : link
We were god awful with klinsman. The fucking guy won at azteca and took us out of the toughest group we have ever been in in the World Cup. I like arena but when you make him out as this savior for everything he does it's just ridiculous. Playing a defensive game like last night is not tactical brilliance. It's playing it safe and smart. Fine, it got a point. To say that klinsman couldn't do that is fucking stupid.
RE: You guys are just trying to make everything seem like  
Go Terps : 6/12/2017 5:42 pm : link
In comment 13497424 Gmen1982 said:
Quote:
We were god awful with klinsman. The fucking guy won at azteca and took us out of the toughest group we have ever been in in the World Cup. I like arena but when you make him out as this savior for everything he does it's just ridiculous. Playing a defensive game like last night is not tactical brilliance. It's playing it safe and smart. Fine, it got a point. To say that klinsman couldn't do that is fucking stupid.


We WERE God-awful with Klinsmann. He was a complete fucking joke...the worst manager/coach I've ever seen of any team I root for in any sport.

And winning a friendly in Azteca means shit. How many examples of the meaninglessness of friendlies do we need before that concept sinks in?
I'm just holding in my enthusiasm until I see some good results  
Gmen1982 : 6/12/2017 5:47 pm : link
Against better teams. I'll disagree that we were god awful. I agree we needed a change.
RE: You guys are just trying to make everything seem like  
Jeffrey : 6/12/2017 5:52 pm : link
In comment 13497424 Gmen1982 said:
Quote:
We were god awful with klinsman. The fucking guy won at azteca and took us out of the toughest group we have ever been in in the World Cup. I like arena but when you make him out as this savior for everything he does it's just ridiculous. Playing a defensive game like last night is not tactical brilliance. It's playing it safe and smart. Fine, it got a point. To say that klinsman couldn't do that is fucking stupid.


Unlike others on this Board, I do not believe we were God awful under JK, just horribly inconsistent and underwhelming. He continuously searched for answers and tinkered with how and when he used players.

I do not think that Arena is a savior, but rather an intermediate step to where I hope that this program can go. I want him to handle the transition between past and future by giving the younger players an opportunity to experience the challenge of WCQ, instead of playing it safe and returning to older veterans who have reached their limits.
RE: You guys are just trying to make everything seem like  
marbles : 6/12/2017 6:02 pm : link
In comment 13497424 Gmen1982 said:
Quote:
We were god awful with klinsman. The fucking guy won at azteca and took us out of the toughest group we have ever been in in the World Cup. I like arena but when you make him out as this savior for everything he does it's just ridiculous. Playing a defensive game like last night is not tactical brilliance. It's playing it safe and smart. Fine, it got a point. To say that klinsman couldn't do that is fucking stupid.


Arena had the team in the quarterfinals in Japan/Korea. They then suffered a heartbreaking loss to Germany, in a game they were clearly the better team. And they managed a draw with Korea in the group stages.

Bradley won the group in South Africa. He also had the US in its first ever final of an international tournament when they lost to Brazil in the Confederations Cup.

Also, while Klinsmann navigated the team through a difficult group stage, he laid a coaching egg against Belgium. If there ever was an embarrassingly defensive game plan, that game was it (Wondolowski's mind-numbing miss notwithstanding). It felt as if Klinsmann played for the 1-0 loss.

It isn't a stretch to say with better coaching from the beginning is of qualification, this team would be well on its way to Russia.
A word about the 2014 World Cup  
Go Terps : 6/12/2017 6:04 pm : link
That group was not nearly the brutal group it was painted to be. Both Portugal and Ghana were almost completely dysfunctional, and the truth is that we performed pretty poorly for both of those matches save for parts of the Portugal match. The team was disjointed, disorganized, and there was zero plan for dealing with Jozy's injury.

I'll also add that Klinsmann's performance in the Belgium match was pathetic. Deploying Cameron as a midfielder (over Beckerman, along with Fabian Johnson our best player in the tournament) because he happened to play in the same league as Hazard was a joke. He got it completely wrong and Belgium, a flawed team that was less than the sum of its parts, should have won 9-0.

If you want a refresher of that nightmare of a match, here's the Zonal Marking article on it. A key passage from it is the following:

Quote:
USA have shown some glimpses of real quality, and this game fits into the pattern from throughout the competition – they’re best when they need a goal.


What that tells you is that the tactics leading up to the match are a mess, and the team performed better when the tactics had to be abandoned in search of a goal.

Klinsmann's hiring, and the incredibly long leash he was given, was everything that's been wrong with US Soccer for years. Too many people (not just fans, but within US Soccer) believe that someone is going to know more about soccer just because they're from Europe, or that a player is going to be better because he plays in Europe.

It's a gigantic load of horseshit and it drives me insane. Bruce Arena and Bob Bradley take shits that know more about soccer than Jurgen Klinsmann, whose greatest contribution to the game was to ruin the 1990 World Cup final with a blatant dive to earn the decisive penalty. And then he comes in and destroys our 2014 World Cup.

Fuck that guy.
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First, wasn't comparing the two.  
Gmen1982 : 6/12/2017 6:06 pm : link
Second, did u really blame klinsman for wondos miss?
RE: First, wasn't comparing the two.  
marbles : 6/12/2017 6:15 pm : link
In comment 13497444 Gmen1982 said:
Quote:
Second, did u really blame klinsman for wondos miss?


Of course not. My piint was aside from Wondolowski's miss, the team didn't come close to an attempt on goal.
RE: RE: You guys are just trying to make everything seem like  
section125 : 6/12/2017 6:16 pm : link
In comment 13497429 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 13497424 Gmen1982 said:


Quote:


We were god awful with klinsman. The fucking guy won at azteca and took us out of the toughest group we have ever been in in the World Cup. I like arena but when you make him out as this savior for everything he does it's just ridiculous. Playing a defensive game like last night is not tactical brilliance. It's playing it safe and smart. Fine, it got a point. To say that klinsman couldn't do that is fucking stupid.



We WERE God-awful with Klinsmann. He was a complete fucking joke...the worst manager/coach I've ever seen of any team I root for in any sport.

And winning a friendly in Azteca means shit. How many examples of the meaninglessness of friendlies do we need before that concept sinks in?


I'm not technically sound with commenting on the nuances of Soccer, but Klinsmann was just awful. The best team was the 2006 WC team that was a missed handball in the goal away from beating Germany and getting into the semis. This tea is vastly improved.

Last night was smart playing with a reduced team. Getting one point was more important than attacking all night and losing 3-2. That one point was huge.

As far as Salcedo's elbows (TWO in the 1st 5 minutes), how did they not see those since the ball was there? It is not like it was behind the play and out of sight.
With GT on JK  
ColHowPepper : 6/12/2017 7:07 pm : link
(and that's not a no brainer, as we often disagree)

In retrospect Klinsmann talked like he was some theoretician of how soccer should be played, all elliptical and goal-oriented in his perorations, and his resume COULD be said to fairly glow, and Gulati fell for it. But it turned out he was an airhead, a true California beach bum, with no feel for tactics, no concept, no ability to communicate them, and no feel for his players' respective positional aptitudes. Contrast his approach to his formation quake (debuted for, what was it, Mexico in Columbus in November?), when Bradley and Johnson had to derail him at the half--and he proceeded to throw them under the bus--with Arena's formation quake which was planned and thought through. (And in looking back at the thread before hitting the Submit button, I see that Turk said much the same)

My feeling is that USMNT is still mortally deficient in the back. I took Cameron to task in the pre-game thread, saying he and Brooks were too slow, physically reactive and in reading fast combinations. Cameron had a good 2H, and he, Gonzalez, and Brooks have good size inside the 18. I just have a hard time believing there is no one better lurking offstage. And I do not believe that Cameron is the answer on the outside, nor is it DB.

The one thing I think you can say is a JK positive is that he shook, not stirred, the martini of channels of access to USMNT. We had become a bit stale in player development under Bradley, hung on to the stalwarts too long, like the Giants' OL in 2011/2012. I am not saying JK was good at player development (too much position changing/did not let chemistry take hold), but he did shake up the mix and that made it easier to let talent flow.

Holy Cow, taking Jozy to task for coming on late and being slow and lazy? Often you have to let the game come to you, and the last 15 - 25 minutes was all about not letting El Tri cop a winning goal.

I'll admit I didn't quite get that switch (Wood out?), because those two have worked together well, and thought that the Nagbe for Accosta (was that it?) came about 10 minutes late.

The players' work last Thursday and the altitude in Mexico City last night obviously weighed heavily on Arena's 11 (including TH's groin) and substitutions.
I'm not sure what Klinsmann's philosophy was  
Mr. Bungle : 6/12/2017 7:21 pm : link
outside of "being fit" and "loving the sport."

And, man, was I spitting fire after that 4th-place finish in the Gold Cup. Just disgraceful beyond words.
Klinsmann..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/12/2017 7:51 pm : link
took a team on the upswing and garnered pretty much the same results. Most casual fans marveled at friendly wins vs. Mexico and Germany, but then we all saw the team unravel, not because of an exodus in talent, but because he couldn't cohesively communicate his gameplan or strategy.

I gave him a lot more leash than others. I thought he was experimenting to find the right mix, but then I realized that playing people out of position and suboptimally wasn't an experiment, it was his cluelessness shining through. By the end, he lost the team, alienated some of the best players, and had us out of a qualifying position and an embarrassing showing at the Gold Cup
I was excited for the klinsman era initially, mainly due to the effect  
GMenLTS : 6/12/2017 8:10 pm : link
he might have for the development of the program in all facets.

It did not take very long at all to see how in over his head he was as a communicator, gameday/roster/personnel, and just general incompetence.

The cost far exceeded the benefits after the abomination against belgium, one of the worst game plans I've ever seen for a team so poised to move on.

The post-WC mess was just the nail in the coffin.


Bruce was about as unexciting a move as we could have made but it just goes to show the job he did with the lesser talent back in his early tenure. I'm starting to get very high hopes again.

Unfortunately, as many already note, we just can't seem to find the talent in the back.
klinsman  
giantfan2000 : 6/12/2017 8:57 pm : link
what bugged me a bout klinsman is his almost irrational hatred of MLS

if a player played in europe - they were automatically better than any player that plays in MLS

Pulisic is unlikely to be called in the Gold Cup.  
Mr. Bungle : 6/15/2017 4:15 pm : link
Quote:
“I doubt it,” Arena said when asked specifically if he would call in Pulisic, who is on the 40-man Gold Cup preliminary roster, from which the 23-man final roster (and up to six replacements for the knockout rounds) can be selected.

“It’s bad timing for [the Gold Cup], because the guys in Europe have gone through this long club season and now the World Cup qualifiers. They need a break. They have three weeks off, and asking them to come in for Gold Cup makes no sense. It would take three weeks to get them ready.”

When asked how many players on the Gold Cup roster will come from his best possible U.S. roster, Arena said: “Almost none. Very few. Maybe [Omar] González and [Matt] Besler. Maybe [Clint] Dempsey and [Jozy] Altidore at some point. [Darlington] Nagbe is a possibility.

“I have to see in the next couple weeks how everyone is doing. We’re pretty sure [Brad] Guzan is coming in. [Tim] Howard can come in after the group stage. So we’ll have to name at least two other goalkeepers.”


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While I'd love to see  
PaulBlakeTSU : 6/15/2017 4:39 pm : link
Pulisic on the Gold Cup squad just to watch him more in the US uniform, I think it's better off that he competes for a spot at Dortmund.
It's tough having Gold Cup and WCQ in the same year.  
Del Shofner : 6/15/2017 4:49 pm : link
You'd love to see us do well in Gold Cup but I completely get where Arena is coming from. As a positive, it's a chance to audition some players who may help us in WCQ.
RE: RE: I read recently that the USA is 'in good shape' to qualify for the WC  
Del Shofner : 6/15/2017 7:46 pm : link
In comment 13496959 Del Shofner said:
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In comment 13496924 Mike in Long Beach said:


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But as you guys noted, Panama is only 1 point behind us and has a good chance of passing us in their next match.

So why is that I'm getting the vibe people consider us to be a likely qualifier, even though from what it seems to me on paper is no more than a 60% chance (at best)?

Is it because whomever we'd play from Asia if we finish 4th would be very bad?



No, not because of the Asia team, although if we have to go that route, that should be a winnable game.

The short answer is that Panama still has to play us here in the USA and that should be a win for us. The longer answer - and I won't go game-by-game - is that I see Panama probably getting 7 points out of its remaining 5 games and I see the USA probably getting at least 8 points out of its remaining 4 games - with the swing factor again being that Panama game here in the USA.

So we should be able to maintain our lead over Panama. The other teams (Honduras and T&T) have no chance.


Panama was two points behind us after our tie with Mexico, not one, and Tuesday night they couldn't beat Honduras at home - it was a tie. So Panama just left two points on the table that they pretty much had to have, and they still trail us by a point.

Not guaranteed for the U.S., at all, but that was a good result Tuesday for us.
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