It sounded like Don Eladio had decided that Hector's "forced cooperation" with Gus was something that would continue. But Hector seemed really upset by this - which didn't make sense to me. I thought it was his idea?
It sounded like Don Eladio had decided that Hector's "forced cooperation" with Gus was something that would continue. But Hector seemed really upset by this - which didn't make sense to me. I thought it was his idea?
I think it was simply Hectors pride being hurt by Gus becoming the favorite son - he insisted on it at first, but now realized it makes him dependent on Gus
this could be the end for Kim. Lots of theories out there that she doesn't survive the season. Seems a bit forced, so I'm leaning towards her making it, but losing the oil guy and Mesa Verde.
yes, but unlike Walt White, who truly was a pox on society, the decline is not because of Jimmy. Kim will fall because of herself. she did knowingly get Mesa Verde through fraudulent means, and she feels guilt about it, but the new case is all her. Same thing with Chuck. Jimmy may be involved with both scenario's but he isn't causing them. He's a little weasely asshole, as evidenced by Irene, but that is not the cause of Kim falling asleep, nor is it the cause of Chuck declining in the lawyer world.
but, also remember, a lot of little old ladies are going to get a good payday because Jimmy discovered they were being taken advantage of.
overall, after proceeding at a snail's pace for three years, all of a sudden, there's a tremendous increase in speed. Obviously, there's a season finale coming, and the argument could be made that all that was groundwork to lead up to now, but could there also be a little dip in ratings, prompting a bit of pressure to get this thing going?
I'd say Kim dies. Probably Jimmy's trigger to go full on money launderer and lose whatever shred of morals he has left. Even rigging a bingo game and ruining the life of Irene for his own pay day, even shaking down the guitar center guys was what I'd consider done to get "the right" solution. Shady sure, but settling the sandpiper case while it helps Jimmy is definitely in the best interest of the people that old, not letting it drag on for years. And the guitar center guys played Jimmy, unwittingly perhaps, but nonetheless, they're benefitting from his persistence and then bailed on the deal. Even his dealings with Chuck, while vindictive and sketchy to say the least, were all initiated because of Chuck's unwillingness to respect Jimmy.
If she does die from the car accident, my guess is suicide.
we know she's not in breaking bad, and in true BB/BCS fashion she's alluded to suicide (flippantly), so they'll make it happen and in retrospect we'll realize it was sort of foreshadowing.
And Nacho can't catch a break, he gets in the way unintentionally when Mike was preparing to take out Hector and then Hector can't die even with fake pills. Now he's got to deal with the shit with his old man.
they're not wrapping them up in one episode. they could have just killed off Kim, and then dealt with the aftermath, but they didn't. There's at least one more season of BCS before, probably 2 or 3, we get to the Saul of BB, so Kim and Chuck are next years drama.
Once you know Hollywood's writing, the drama is largely taken out.
they're not wrapping them up in one episode. they could have just killed off Kim, and then dealt with the aftermath, but they didn't. There's at least one more season of BCS before, probably 2 or 3, we get to the Saul of BB, so Kim and Chuck are next years drama.
Once you know Hollywood's writing, the drama is largely taken out.
Yes, I didn't mean to imply her death was imminent. I don't think her injuries from the crash are lethal.
While Jimmy obviously engages in shady and unethical behavior it's an "ends justify the means" scenario from my PoV. If his brother supported his career just a little we probably aren't where we are with their deteriorated relationship. Kim's issues have nothing to do with Jimmy -- it's simply her burning the candle at both ends and not able to handle the workload.
As far as the Sandcastle case, Hamlin is screwing over the class for an extra buck. The longer they convince the class to hold out the more likely it is the class never sees a dime (only the kids/relatives will) considering their ages. Jimmy is trying to get paid himself but he's also trying to make sure they get some money to enjoy before they die.
but you know how you catch a break? Not consorting with organized crime syndicates.
well then he wouldn't be in the show. so sure, give a fictional character a real life lesson, maybe send him a fan letter and suggest things would be brighter for him if he went on the straight and narrow.
even though it made sense as a means to an end...I mean, anyone with an elderly Mom had to really feel for the poor lady!
and that's the Walter White conundrum. He started out as a sympathetic character. one who was even sort of noble in his criminal dalliances, doing whatever he had to to make sure his family was provided for after his death to lung cancer, but he became something totally different.
So while yes, what Jimmy did was cruel to Irene, big picture influencing the "demand" for a settlement was right for all sandpiper plaintiffs.
The reason Kim was burning the candle at both ends Â
was 100% because of Jimmy. She knows the only reason she got the Mesa Verde case was because Jimmy rigged it. She wanted to prove to herself that she could land something on her own merit.
I've said it on a few occasions, one of brilliant things about this show, and (I'm assuming a lot of crossover writers/producers) Breaking bad, is the ability to make us root for an evil character. I don't think Nacho is as evil as Walt, but still, how do you feel sorry for a guy breaking almost every law known to man? but the show has us going there, because there's always someone worse.
Do we need this kind of a character? Is it essential to the show? they present us a lot of ambiguous characters. We need to decide: good or bad. just like in real life. Hopefully, we don't have to deal with people like this in our lives, but we still have to decide if people in our lives are worthwhile, or not. That, IMO, is the true genius of the show(s) both BB and BCS. I can root for Nacho because he has a heart. I can despise him because he's willing to maim/kill.
I've said it on a few occasions, one of brilliant things about this show, and (I'm assuming a lot of crossover writers/producers) Breaking bad, is the ability to make us root for an evil character. I don't think Nacho is as evil as Walt, but still, how do you feel sorry for a guy breaking almost every law known to man? but the show has us going there, because there's always someone worse.
Do we need this kind of a character? Is it essential to the show? they present us a lot of ambiguous characters. We need to decide: good or bad. just like in real life. Hopefully, we don't have to deal with people like this in our lives, but we still have to decide if people in our lives are worthwhile, or not. That, IMO, is the true genius of the show(s) both BB and BCS. I can root for Nacho because he has a heart. I can despise him because he's willing to maim/kill.
I don't feel sorry for Nacho, you are changing what I said. I said he can't catch a break. Nacho needs/wants Hector dead. Mike would have killed him if Nacho didn't get in Mike's' way and prevent him from taking the shot with the sniper rifle. Then seemingly ironically Gus Fring saves Hector. And then even after swapping his pills with placebos he still couldn't die.
but there was only person Jimmy was thinking of when he hastened the process. don't kid yourself.
of course he did it for himself, and HHM are acting in their best interest, so while Jimmy is thinking of himself, his interests and the interests of the old people are aligned, making Jimmy the sympathetic character and the one, for even non altruistic reasons, doing the right thing and HHM are the bad guys.
I've said it on a few occasions, one of brilliant things about this show, and (I'm assuming a lot of crossover writers/producers) Breaking bad, is the ability to make us root for an evil character. I don't think Nacho is as evil as Walt, but still, how do you feel sorry for a guy breaking almost every law known to man? but the show has us going there, because there's always someone worse.
Do we need this kind of a character? Is it essential to the show? they present us a lot of ambiguous characters. We need to decide: good or bad. just like in real life. Hopefully, we don't have to deal with people like this in our lives, but we still have to decide if people in our lives are worthwhile, or not. That, IMO, is the true genius of the show(s) both BB and BCS. I can root for Nacho because he has a heart. I can despise him because he's willing to maim/kill.
With due respect, the set of morals you're applying to pass judgement on Nacho is kinda weird.
"We need to decide: good or bad" - respectfully disagree. As you said well, one of the overriding themes of BB and now BCS is most, if not all characters are a combination of a lot of things, some mostly good, some mostly bad, others in between.
These shows, much like the Wire, the Shield, and others like it, give us interesting character studies into the motivations of those who are both "good" and "bad" guys on the surface. IMO, that's what makes them great shows.
Nacho is a bad guy, nobody is saying otherwise, but we get to consider that there are some good motivations behind his decisions - as in, he knows he's on the wrong side, but wants to protect his honest father from getting sucked into it.
Walter White was a brilliant character study - a good guy who "broke bad" at first for noble reasons, but as things progressed, he rediscovered his lost manhood and turned full bad guy by the end, at the cost of his family and several lives.
We like Mike because he's such a bad ass. But he also goes from good cop, to dirty cop, to criminal, with some noble motivations behind his decisions.
Was Jimmy McNulty good or bad? Was Vic Mackey good or bad? Like many people in real life, impossible to put them all on one side or the other, they were both a combination of a lot of things.
That we may finally start to learn who Gus was. This was hinted at in BB too that he was someone incredibly important. Remember in the BB flashback scene he's told the only reason he's alive is because of who he is. Now Lydia hinted at it too in this episode. Lots of theories during BB that he was connected to Pinochet and they did remind you in this episode he was Chilean. We'll see I guess.
And while I do agree with those who shot down the redit theory that sometimes a camera angle is just a camera angle, I think the reddit theory is going to nail it and Kim is going to kill herself by jumping. Maybe not a coincidence this episode that begins Kim downward trend is called "Fall". Perhaps a double meaning.
but there was only person Jimmy was thinking of when he hastened the process. don't kid yourself.
of course he did it for himself, and HHM are acting in their best interest, so while Jimmy is thinking of himself, his interests and the interests of the old people are aligned, making Jimmy the sympathetic character and the one, for even non altruistic reasons, doing the right thing and HHM are the bad guys.
Jimmy did the "Right Thing" arguably, but for questionable reasons ($$$), and in an extremely immoral way (gaslighting a sweet old lady).
but there was only person Jimmy was thinking of when he hastened the process. don't kid yourself.
of course he did it for himself, and HHM are acting in their best interest, so while Jimmy is thinking of himself, his interests and the interests of the old people are aligned, making Jimmy the sympathetic character and the one, for even non altruistic reasons, doing the right thing and HHM are the bad guys.
Jimmy did the "Right Thing" arguably, but for questionable reasons ($$$), and in an extremely immoral way (gaslighting a sweet old lady).
I don't think there's any arguably about it. Jimmy's 20% of the settlement was over $1M, so do that math and you can figure out what the settlement was.
These members of the lawsuit are in their twilight years, that really was no BS IMO, the longer the wait (assuming the offer increases) the more money HHM (and Jimmy technically) get, but it's very disproportionate to what the class members get.
settling was/is the right move.
And obviously the way he did it was immoral otherwise if he convinced Irene to force the settlement through proper means he's "St. Jimmy, Lawyer of the People" and it's a different show, not Better Call Saul.
I think this is the tip of the ice berg, last night we started to really meet Saul, we've seen glimpses, but nothing like this. Jimmy had always been a con man, but he's raising the bar now (or lowering it I guess).
I put words in their mouth.
or that I was judging people. As I said, the genius of the show is that it takes people thrust into tough situations and having to make a choice and makes people who are ostensibly bad into sympathetic characters. Such as Nacho.
I still lean toward staying out of organized crime as being the first step to catching a break.
Does anyone think Chuck ultimately winds up commitied? Â
Howard's problem with Chuck's new lawsuit goes away if he is committed. Maybe he and Jimmy work together to get rid of Chuck. Though, seeing Jimmy starting to become Saul I'm guessing Jimmy would want something significant in return to put his brother away. But, yeah, I could see a scenario where something like this plays out. Of course not in the final episode though, I mean season 4.
I put words in their mouth.
or that I was judging people. As I said, the genius of the show is that it takes people thrust into tough situations and having to make a choice and makes people who are ostensibly bad into sympathetic characters. Such as Nacho.
I still lean toward staying out of organized crime as being the first step to catching a break.
of course, but that's the plot the writers have provided. If Nacho is not in organized crime, is there a nacho? No.
He's a paradox of virtue like many others BB/BCS characters like Walter White, like Jimmy McGill, like Mike Ehrmantraut, like Jessie Pinkman, even Skyler White to an extent, etc.
Nacho might be worse than some because he chose an illicit path for profit (probably), but the fact he wants to keep his honest father sheltered from his illicit lifestyle is endearing, and because the people he's in business with (Hector Salamanca, Don Eladio, etc.) are ruthless and heartless villains people sympathize with Nacho.
It's pretty much a recurring theme with Gilligan.
Now this little side story doesn't have the layers that say Walter vs. Hank does, but it's still one where there are degrees of evil and intentionally through the Mike and Nacho "alliance" and the consideration of his fathers morals they have set Nacho up as a "good" bad guy.
So, sure, saying stay out of organized crime is good advice, but again you are giving real world advice to a fictional character.
but there was only person Jimmy was thinking of when he hastened the process. don't kid yourself.
Totally agree, and in this episode Jimmy's behavior had the stench of Walter White all over it. Much of the things Walter did that were bad (or downright evil), even till the very end, he justified as either the best thing to do in the long run or a win-win scenario.
But in the end, the greed that he'd use to justify the supposed win-wins ultimately reared its head with far more brutal consequences later on. Both shows proved the selfish behavior of these characters will always ultimately catch up with them as they spiral further away from the moral compasses they so desperately want to believe they're defined by.
but I don't see how you people can think what Jimmy did was right.
It was hard for me to watch that part of the episode, in my view, what Jimmy did to Irene was awful, it validates what Chuck did all along-that Jimmy is a scumbag, arming him with a law degree is a determint to society.
He destroyed her life, he deliberately manipulated her just like a con man.
He also destroyed Chuck and HHM; and he pushed Kim to overwork.
settling the class action with Sandpiper was the right thing. Period. For everyone except HHM.
HHM dragging it out was an act of greed by them, typical of lawyers and class action suits perhaps, but nonetheless not in the best interest of the plaintiffs.
So yes, by getting Irene to force a settlement (if that even happens) was the right thing.
The way he did it was shitty and having a law degree is irrelevant because his is suspended, but he earned the law degree, so "arming" him with a law degree is a weird choice of words.
settling the class action with Sandpiper was the right thing. Period. For everyone except HHM.
HHM dragging it out was an act of greed by them, typical of lawyers and class action suits perhaps, but nonetheless not in the best interest of the plaintiffs.
So yes, by getting Irene to force a settlement (if that even happens) was the right thing.
The way he did it was shitty and having a law degree is irrelevant because his is suspended, but he earned the law degree, so "arming" him with a law degree is a weird choice of words.
I think the question is this... if it had been beneficial for Jimmy for the Sandpiper case to continue, would he have helped his clients? The answer is no, and since the show's primary focus is the evolution of Jimmy into Saul, I think it's an important distinction. Jimmy wasn't being a good person. His only goal was to get his money, he just felt better about it because it also happened to be the right thing to do.
If Jimmy's payout stood at 1.5 million or so regardless of what happened, but BOTH HMM and the Sandpiper residents got a larger payout if they held out longer, would Jimmy still have been urging them to settle so he can get his money? I think he would have.
conclusion to make based on the information we have.
but when you consider the way the plot unfolded, Jimmy went to see Irene to probe for information to see how close they were to a settlement. When Irene showed him the offer that's when he "became Saul" and decided in his own mind it was a fair offer to the plaintiffs and one that he'd sufficiently profit from. Drawing out the process would not improve the plaintiffs standing materially and many may not even live to see it. Those are the facts.
The question you need to answer is if it was a lowball offer but one that would get Jimmy out of his cash crunch what would he have done and IMO I don't think he would have gone full Saul and used Irene like that. In his mind he had to believe it was the right thing and then the ends justified the means (to him).
I believe he felt like he was pushing Irene to reach the conclusion he felt was best for her and the other plaintiffs (and obviously him).
It's Walter White all over. Initial intentions of Walter White were sort of admirable. He wanted to provide for his family upon his death and the lengths he'd go to knew no bounds. Yes, he profited from his criminal behavior - and not just monetarily, but it was not his initial goal it's what he became.
And we're seeing it now with Jimmy to Saul, as Walter White became Heisenberg.
Jimmy McGill and Walter White were not that dissimilar sans the cancer.
Would Jimmy have worked to get the Sandpiper residents their settlement if it was a detriment to himself? It's an opinion based on what you believe Jimmy to be. You can certainly answer that question without needing more information.
Would Jimmy have worked to get the Sandpiper residents their settlement if it was a detriment to himself? It's an opinion based on what you believe Jimmy to be. You can certainly answer that question without needing more information.
No, he wouldn't have but that's irrelevant, HHM wouldn't either, nor would anyone in their situations. He was a for profit lawyer. It was his job not a charity. The question is irrelevant to Jimmy, at this point, having redeeming qualities mixed in with the morally casual methods of achieving his desired (and the morally right) outcomes.
In the grand scheme of things yes what Jimmy did was wrong, but he absolutely did it for the right reasons and comes off looking like the sympathetic character to the greedy HHM.
In the grand scheme of things yes what Jimmy did was wrong, but he absolutely did it for the right reasons
He did the right thing for the wrong reasons. It's good for the Sandpiper residents, but that's not what motivates him.... and that's what's more and more, IMO, going to be what defines Jimmy as a human being moving forward.
In the grand scheme of things yes what Jimmy did was wrong, but he absolutely did it for the right reasons
He did the right thing for the wrong reasons. It's good for the Sandpiper residents, but that's not what motivates him.... and that's what's more and more, IMO, going to be what defines Jimmy as a human being moving forward.
Jimmy is transforming like Walter White.
In the beginning Walter was a science teacher who simply cooked meth, then he became a heartless, power hungry, murdering drug kingpin.
IMO right now Jimmy is a down on his luck suspended lawyer, who as we know will eventually become a money launderer/fixer (at least, maybe worse).
I'm not saying I don't have sympathy for Jimmy. It would've taken extraordinary character to not make those mistakes when you have the intelligence to do so and financial freedom is on the line for you. I like Jimmy. I just don't think it's fair to say "he did a good thing" with this. The result may be, but his intentions were marred with greed.
Also changing gears a little... that last shot of and the Kim accident was so well done.
Correct. If Jimmy wasn't financially strapped and could afford to wait for a larger chunk of cash in a future settlement, he'd do it, and it wouldn't matter to him in the slightest that his Sandpiper clients (who love him) might not live to see their share of it.
As it stands, the moral good Jimmy might argue he delivered by getting his clients their money sooner rather than later, is far outweighed by what he had to achieve it. It was actually uncomfortable to watch.
This might be an excellent time to send props to the actress who played Irene - I believe her name is Jean Effron. She did an exceptional job. I think it's easy to play "sweet old lady" to the point where she's just overbearing, but I thought Jean did a great job.
I'm not saying I don't have sympathy for Jimmy. It would've taken extraordinary character to not make those mistakes when you have the intelligence to do so and financial freedom is on the line for you. I like Jimmy. I just don't think it's fair to say "he did a good thing" with this. The result may be, but his intentions were marred with greed.
Also changing gears a little... that last shot of and the Kim accident was so well done.
He did a good thing considering the alternatives. Someone said it before, what Gilligan does with both BB and BCS is to make the bad guys better than the worse guys if you know what I mean.
the options for the sandpiper plaintiffs were two:
1. Wait out the class action lawsuit which could drag on for years, some of them would surely die and the increase in payout they receive from the current offer by waiting would be negligible.
2. Settle now, which was by the only accounts we have, a fair settlement and would provide them some financial comfort in their waning years.
So what Jimmy did to Irene was wrong and yes he profited from it (and if he wasn't going to profit from it he wouldn't have done it), but he did it to get her to make the right decision.
so that's what I mean when Jimmy did something good and when juxtaposed to HHM, Jimmy is the protagonist.
that's not being contested. What's being contested is the idea that Jimmy would've still had the best of intentions for all involved if it wasn't in his best interest. As blacklight said, if he could afford to wait for a bigger payout, he'd do it even though the Sandpiper residents likely wouldn't live to see a penny of it.
That was what was made the scene with Skyler and Walt in the final episode so fucking good. When for the billionth Walter was gonna have an excuse, Skyler says "If I have to hear you did this for the family one more time...."
And Walt cuts her off "I did it for me. I liked it. I was good at it. It made me feel... alive."
It was so poignant because it was the first time he owned that every single justification he made to his family and to himself was bullshit. He did all these things for himself, and the benefit to his family was his way of sleeping at night. I feel like Saul's situation here is quite similar.
that's not being contested. What's being contested is the idea that Jimmy would've still had the best of intentions for all involved if it wasn't in his best interest. As blacklight said, if he could afford to wait for a bigger payout, he'd do it even though the Sandpiper residents likely wouldn't live to see a penny of it.
What evidence have you seen of that?
He even paid the students he had working for him as his film crew during the guitar center commercials after he got stiffed.
Jimmy is not heartless, I think if he felt the settlement was fair no way he would have held out solely to line his pockets.
Not Jimmy right now anyway, maybe what Jimmy becomes.
I don't think Jimmy is heartless, but you just touched on it Â
The show is about the arc and what Jimmy becomes. Of course his pushing the agenda of Irene settling wasn't "heartless," but arguing his core motivation was good is equally silly. I'm not calling him a monster. But you can't deny slow dissension into greed-based decision-making is becoming more and more prominent.
was purely good, but I don't think if he felt it was a bad deal for the sandpiper plaintiffs then Jimmy would have set up Irene purely out of greed. No doubt he was a scam artist/con man, but I don't think it was ever solely about money.
If Jimmy was purely motivated by greed why leave Davis and Main where he had to try really hard to get fired. Yes, the job was about caging him and that wasn't his style, but it was more money than he'd ever see anywhere else.
Slippin' Jimmy was always there (even when Jimmy was trying to go completely straight), but to treat that old lady like that was despicable.
Kim is biting off more than she can chew. I wonder if she drops the partnership and joins a larger firm now that she has 2 big clients? Perhaps, she goes back to HHM. I've always been skeptical of the idea that her story has to end in some sort of tragedy. Maybe she just leaves Jimmy behind (personally and professionally) or maybe they're still involved in some way when he has to leave town.
I rank Breaking Bad as a top 5 show so I watch but at times it's dull and somewhat confusing. The production is great and I love the characters but.....
That was what was made the scene with Skyler and Walt in the final episode so fucking good. When for the billionth Walter was gonna have an excuse, Skyler says "If I have to hear you did this for the family one more time...."
And Walt cuts her off "I did it for me. I liked it. I was good at it. It made me feel... alive."
It was so poignant because it was the first time he owned that every single justification he made to his family and to himself was bullshit. He did all these things for himself, and the benefit to his family was his way of sleeping at night. I feel like Saul's situation here is quite similar.
I don't think Saul is that similar at all at this point. He's done some shady shit but pretty tame on a criminal level. The Robin Hood of cons based on the body of work so far.
As far as the Sanpiper situation, HHM should be the center of the scrutiny. A Hamlin "yes man" persuaded Irene not to settle initially. During Hamlin's convo with Jimmy, it's obvious greed is a motivating factor in not settling PLUS making Jimmy wait. They're willing to screw over the actual plaintiffs by making Jimmy wait "a few years" the plaintiffs don't have for an extra buck.
"Ruining Irene's life" is hyperbolic. Lock if she settles all of the old ladies are friends again.
the most well acted show on TV. By a mile. It's a lesson for anyone who aspires to act.
What's crazy is it's not out of the realm of possibility that Monday will be the last episode ever. The ratings have dropped a bit... AMC is clinging to the (rightfully) great reviews it's getting and hoping it generates some viewership. But even Gilligan and co. said that, while hopeful, they don't feel a 4th season is guaranteed.
settling the class action with Sandpiper was the right thing. Period. For everyone except HHM.
HHM dragging it out was an act of greed by them, typical of lawyers and class action suits perhaps, but nonetheless not in the best interest of the plaintiffs.
So yes, by getting Irene to force a settlement (if that even happens) was the right thing.
The way he did it was shitty and having a law degree is irrelevant because his is suspended, but he earned the law degree, so "arming" him with a law degree is a weird choice of words.
As far as Irene was concerned, Jimmy is a legitimate businessman as opposed to some con man off the streets. That is the illusion his law degree permits.
What Jimmy did was completely self-serving, EVEN if it was the right decision (which is debatable), it was about himself, & the way he did was downright awful.
He could have tried some other method that would have had less fallout for Irene.
but isn't Sandpiper being based on a percentage of settlement rather than billable hours? in such cases, wouldn't lawyers be looking to settle quickly, rather than haggle on and on for an extra buck? It doesn't really matter, because it's the set up of the show, but is it realistic? especially if HMM is crying about being cash poor - wouldn't they welcome a quick buck? It's presented as a reasonable settlement offer (and if it's not, Jimmy was absolutely an asshole), so would any law firm spend money to get just a little bit more? My impression is that billable hours, they're willing to spend your money to get you an extra little bit, but contingency cases are settled as soon as they know the offer is almost as good as it's going to get (a reasonable offer).
The brand of tequila Jimmy brings to his failed celebration at the end of the episode is Zafiro Añejo, which reappears in “Breaking Bad,” laced with poison, to wipe out the Mexican cartel. With Kim’s accident happening soon after Jimmy uncorks this non-poisononed bottle, the brand now seems like a harbinger of disaster. When it shows up, run.
but isn't Sandpiper being based on a percentage of settlement rather than billable hours? in such cases, wouldn't lawyers be looking to settle quickly, rather than haggle on and on for an extra buck? It doesn't really matter, because it's the set up of the show, but is it realistic? especially if HMM is crying about being cash poor - wouldn't they welcome a quick buck? It's presented as a reasonable settlement offer (and if it's not, Jimmy was absolutely an asshole), so would any law firm spend money to get just a little bit more? My impression is that billable hours, they're willing to spend your money to get you an extra little bit, but contingency cases are settled as soon as they know the offer is almost as good as it's going to get (a reasonable offer).
HHM would get a cut of the settlement -- which in the case of a legitimate class action suit means the difference in millions for the firm. Essentially all of the leg work is done (thanks to Jimmy), it's just a matter of haggling over the final figure. There's no incentive for HHM to settle unless they are financially strapped -- which may be the case now with the issue with Jimmy's brother and the firm. If Irene wants to settle Hamlin will probably just go with it at this point instead of trying to persuade her otherwise.
I think it was simply Hectors pride being hurt by Gus becoming the favorite son - he insisted on it at first, but now realized it makes him dependent on Gus
but, also remember, a lot of little old ladies are going to get a good payday because Jimmy discovered they were being taken advantage of.
overall, after proceeding at a snail's pace for three years, all of a sudden, there's a tremendous increase in speed. Obviously, there's a season finale coming, and the argument could be made that all that was groundwork to lead up to now, but could there also be a little dip in ratings, prompting a bit of pressure to get this thing going?
If she does die from the car accident, my guess is suicide.
we know she's not in breaking bad, and in true BB/BCS fashion she's alluded to suicide (flippantly), so they'll make it happen and in retrospect we'll realize it was sort of foreshadowing.
And Nacho can't catch a break, he gets in the way unintentionally when Mike was preparing to take out Hector and then Hector can't die even with fake pills. Now he's got to deal with the shit with his old man.
they're not wrapping them up in one episode. they could have just killed off Kim, and then dealt with the aftermath, but they didn't. There's at least one more season of BCS before, probably 2 or 3, we get to the Saul of BB, so Kim and Chuck are next years drama.
Once you know Hollywood's writing, the drama is largely taken out.
they're not wrapping them up in one episode. they could have just killed off Kim, and then dealt with the aftermath, but they didn't. There's at least one more season of BCS before, probably 2 or 3, we get to the Saul of BB, so Kim and Chuck are next years drama.
Once you know Hollywood's writing, the drama is largely taken out.
Yes, I didn't mean to imply her death was imminent. I don't think her injuries from the crash are lethal.
As far as the Sandcastle case, Hamlin is screwing over the class for an extra buck. The longer they convince the class to hold out the more likely it is the class never sees a dime (only the kids/relatives will) considering their ages. Jimmy is trying to get paid himself but he's also trying to make sure they get some money to enjoy before they die.
well then he wouldn't be in the show. so sure, give a fictional character a real life lesson, maybe send him a fan letter and suggest things would be brighter for him if he went on the straight and narrow.
and that's the Walter White conundrum. He started out as a sympathetic character. one who was even sort of noble in his criminal dalliances, doing whatever he had to to make sure his family was provided for after his death to lung cancer, but he became something totally different.
So while yes, what Jimmy did was cruel to Irene, big picture influencing the "demand" for a settlement was right for all sandpiper plaintiffs.
Do we need this kind of a character? Is it essential to the show? they present us a lot of ambiguous characters. We need to decide: good or bad. just like in real life. Hopefully, we don't have to deal with people like this in our lives, but we still have to decide if people in our lives are worthwhile, or not. That, IMO, is the true genius of the show(s) both BB and BCS. I can root for Nacho because he has a heart. I can despise him because he's willing to maim/kill.
Do we need this kind of a character? Is it essential to the show? they present us a lot of ambiguous characters. We need to decide: good or bad. just like in real life. Hopefully, we don't have to deal with people like this in our lives, but we still have to decide if people in our lives are worthwhile, or not. That, IMO, is the true genius of the show(s) both BB and BCS. I can root for Nacho because he has a heart. I can despise him because he's willing to maim/kill.
I don't feel sorry for Nacho, you are changing what I said. I said he can't catch a break. Nacho needs/wants Hector dead. Mike would have killed him if Nacho didn't get in Mike's' way and prevent him from taking the shot with the sniper rifle. Then seemingly ironically Gus Fring saves Hector. And then even after swapping his pills with placebos he still couldn't die.
I don't feel sorry for him though.
of course he did it for himself, and HHM are acting in their best interest, so while Jimmy is thinking of himself, his interests and the interests of the old people are aligned, making Jimmy the sympathetic character and the one, for even non altruistic reasons, doing the right thing and HHM are the bad guys.
Do we need this kind of a character? Is it essential to the show? they present us a lot of ambiguous characters. We need to decide: good or bad. just like in real life. Hopefully, we don't have to deal with people like this in our lives, but we still have to decide if people in our lives are worthwhile, or not. That, IMO, is the true genius of the show(s) both BB and BCS. I can root for Nacho because he has a heart. I can despise him because he's willing to maim/kill.
With due respect, the set of morals you're applying to pass judgement on Nacho is kinda weird.
"We need to decide: good or bad" - respectfully disagree. As you said well, one of the overriding themes of BB and now BCS is most, if not all characters are a combination of a lot of things, some mostly good, some mostly bad, others in between.
These shows, much like the Wire, the Shield, and others like it, give us interesting character studies into the motivations of those who are both "good" and "bad" guys on the surface. IMO, that's what makes them great shows.
Nacho is a bad guy, nobody is saying otherwise, but we get to consider that there are some good motivations behind his decisions - as in, he knows he's on the wrong side, but wants to protect his honest father from getting sucked into it.
Walter White was a brilliant character study - a good guy who "broke bad" at first for noble reasons, but as things progressed, he rediscovered his lost manhood and turned full bad guy by the end, at the cost of his family and several lives.
We like Mike because he's such a bad ass. But he also goes from good cop, to dirty cop, to criminal, with some noble motivations behind his decisions.
Was Jimmy McNulty good or bad? Was Vic Mackey good or bad? Like many people in real life, impossible to put them all on one side or the other, they were both a combination of a lot of things.
Same with characters in BB and BCS.
And while I do agree with those who shot down the redit theory that sometimes a camera angle is just a camera angle, I think the reddit theory is going to nail it and Kim is going to kill herself by jumping. Maybe not a coincidence this episode that begins Kim downward trend is called "Fall". Perhaps a double meaning.
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but there was only person Jimmy was thinking of when he hastened the process. don't kid yourself.
of course he did it for himself, and HHM are acting in their best interest, so while Jimmy is thinking of himself, his interests and the interests of the old people are aligned, making Jimmy the sympathetic character and the one, for even non altruistic reasons, doing the right thing and HHM are the bad guys.
Jimmy did the "Right Thing" arguably, but for questionable reasons ($$$), and in an extremely immoral way (gaslighting a sweet old lady).
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In comment 13498157 fkap said:
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but there was only person Jimmy was thinking of when he hastened the process. don't kid yourself.
of course he did it for himself, and HHM are acting in their best interest, so while Jimmy is thinking of himself, his interests and the interests of the old people are aligned, making Jimmy the sympathetic character and the one, for even non altruistic reasons, doing the right thing and HHM are the bad guys.
Jimmy did the "Right Thing" arguably, but for questionable reasons ($$$), and in an extremely immoral way (gaslighting a sweet old lady).
I don't think there's any arguably about it. Jimmy's 20% of the settlement was over $1M, so do that math and you can figure out what the settlement was.
These members of the lawsuit are in their twilight years, that really was no BS IMO, the longer the wait (assuming the offer increases) the more money HHM (and Jimmy technically) get, but it's very disproportionate to what the class members get.
settling was/is the right move.
And obviously the way he did it was immoral otherwise if he convinced Irene to force the settlement through proper means he's "St. Jimmy, Lawyer of the People" and it's a different show, not Better Call Saul.
I think this is the tip of the ice berg, last night we started to really meet Saul, we've seen glimpses, but nothing like this. Jimmy had always been a con man, but he's raising the bar now (or lowering it I guess).
or that I was judging people. As I said, the genius of the show is that it takes people thrust into tough situations and having to make a choice and makes people who are ostensibly bad into sympathetic characters. Such as Nacho.
I still lean toward staying out of organized crime as being the first step to catching a break.
or that I was judging people. As I said, the genius of the show is that it takes people thrust into tough situations and having to make a choice and makes people who are ostensibly bad into sympathetic characters. Such as Nacho.
I still lean toward staying out of organized crime as being the first step to catching a break.
of course, but that's the plot the writers have provided. If Nacho is not in organized crime, is there a nacho? No.
He's a paradox of virtue like many others BB/BCS characters like Walter White, like Jimmy McGill, like Mike Ehrmantraut, like Jessie Pinkman, even Skyler White to an extent, etc.
Nacho might be worse than some because he chose an illicit path for profit (probably), but the fact he wants to keep his honest father sheltered from his illicit lifestyle is endearing, and because the people he's in business with (Hector Salamanca, Don Eladio, etc.) are ruthless and heartless villains people sympathize with Nacho.
It's pretty much a recurring theme with Gilligan.
Now this little side story doesn't have the layers that say Walter vs. Hank does, but it's still one where there are degrees of evil and intentionally through the Mike and Nacho "alliance" and the consideration of his fathers morals they have set Nacho up as a "good" bad guy.
So, sure, saying stay out of organized crime is good advice, but again you are giving real world advice to a fictional character.
Totally agree, and in this episode Jimmy's behavior had the stench of Walter White all over it. Much of the things Walter did that were bad (or downright evil), even till the very end, he justified as either the best thing to do in the long run or a win-win scenario.
But in the end, the greed that he'd use to justify the supposed win-wins ultimately reared its head with far more brutal consequences later on. Both shows proved the selfish behavior of these characters will always ultimately catch up with them as they spiral further away from the moral compasses they so desperately want to believe they're defined by.
It was hard for me to watch that part of the episode, in my view, what Jimmy did to Irene was awful, it validates what Chuck did all along-that Jimmy is a scumbag, arming him with a law degree is a determint to society.
He destroyed her life, he deliberately manipulated her just like a con man.
He also destroyed Chuck and HHM; and he pushed Kim to overwork.
HHM dragging it out was an act of greed by them, typical of lawyers and class action suits perhaps, but nonetheless not in the best interest of the plaintiffs.
So yes, by getting Irene to force a settlement (if that even happens) was the right thing.
The way he did it was shitty and having a law degree is irrelevant because his is suspended, but he earned the law degree, so "arming" him with a law degree is a weird choice of words.
HHM dragging it out was an act of greed by them, typical of lawyers and class action suits perhaps, but nonetheless not in the best interest of the plaintiffs.
So yes, by getting Irene to force a settlement (if that even happens) was the right thing.
The way he did it was shitty and having a law degree is irrelevant because his is suspended, but he earned the law degree, so "arming" him with a law degree is a weird choice of words.
I think the question is this... if it had been beneficial for Jimmy for the Sandpiper case to continue, would he have helped his clients? The answer is no, and since the show's primary focus is the evolution of Jimmy into Saul, I think it's an important distinction. Jimmy wasn't being a good person. His only goal was to get his money, he just felt better about it because it also happened to be the right thing to do.
but when you consider the way the plot unfolded, Jimmy went to see Irene to probe for information to see how close they were to a settlement. When Irene showed him the offer that's when he "became Saul" and decided in his own mind it was a fair offer to the plaintiffs and one that he'd sufficiently profit from. Drawing out the process would not improve the plaintiffs standing materially and many may not even live to see it. Those are the facts.
The question you need to answer is if it was a lowball offer but one that would get Jimmy out of his cash crunch what would he have done and IMO I don't think he would have gone full Saul and used Irene like that. In his mind he had to believe it was the right thing and then the ends justified the means (to him).
I believe he felt like he was pushing Irene to reach the conclusion he felt was best for her and the other plaintiffs (and obviously him).
It's Walter White all over. Initial intentions of Walter White were sort of admirable. He wanted to provide for his family upon his death and the lengths he'd go to knew no bounds. Yes, he profited from his criminal behavior - and not just monetarily, but it was not his initial goal it's what he became.
And we're seeing it now with Jimmy to Saul, as Walter White became Heisenberg.
Jimmy McGill and Walter White were not that dissimilar sans the cancer.
No, he wouldn't have but that's irrelevant, HHM wouldn't either, nor would anyone in their situations. He was a for profit lawyer. It was his job not a charity. The question is irrelevant to Jimmy, at this point, having redeeming qualities mixed in with the morally casual methods of achieving his desired (and the morally right) outcomes.
In the grand scheme of things yes what Jimmy did was wrong, but he absolutely did it for the right reasons and comes off looking like the sympathetic character to the greedy HHM.
He did the right thing for the wrong reasons. It's good for the Sandpiper residents, but that's not what motivates him.... and that's what's more and more, IMO, going to be what defines Jimmy as a human being moving forward.
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In the grand scheme of things yes what Jimmy did was wrong, but he absolutely did it for the right reasons
He did the right thing for the wrong reasons. It's good for the Sandpiper residents, but that's not what motivates him.... and that's what's more and more, IMO, going to be what defines Jimmy as a human being moving forward.
Jimmy is transforming like Walter White.
In the beginning Walter was a science teacher who simply cooked meth, then he became a heartless, power hungry, murdering drug kingpin.
IMO right now Jimmy is a down on his luck suspended lawyer, who as we know will eventually become a money launderer/fixer (at least, maybe worse).
Why do you think Jimmy went to visit Irene?
Also changing gears a little... that last shot of and the Kim accident was so well done.
Correct. If Jimmy wasn't financially strapped and could afford to wait for a larger chunk of cash in a future settlement, he'd do it, and it wouldn't matter to him in the slightest that his Sandpiper clients (who love him) might not live to see their share of it.
As it stands, the moral good Jimmy might argue he delivered by getting his clients their money sooner rather than later, is far outweighed by what he had to achieve it. It was actually uncomfortable to watch.
This might be an excellent time to send props to the actress who played Irene - I believe her name is Jean Effron. She did an exceptional job. I think it's easy to play "sweet old lady" to the point where she's just overbearing, but I thought Jean did a great job.
Also changing gears a little... that last shot of and the Kim accident was so well done.
He did a good thing considering the alternatives. Someone said it before, what Gilligan does with both BB and BCS is to make the bad guys better than the worse guys if you know what I mean.
the options for the sandpiper plaintiffs were two:
1. Wait out the class action lawsuit which could drag on for years, some of them would surely die and the increase in payout they receive from the current offer by waiting would be negligible.
2. Settle now, which was by the only accounts we have, a fair settlement and would provide them some financial comfort in their waning years.
So what Jimmy did to Irene was wrong and yes he profited from it (and if he wasn't going to profit from it he wouldn't have done it), but he did it to get her to make the right decision.
so that's what I mean when Jimmy did something good and when juxtaposed to HHM, Jimmy is the protagonist.
And Walt cuts her off "I did it for me. I liked it. I was good at it. It made me feel... alive."
It was so poignant because it was the first time he owned that every single justification he made to his family and to himself was bullshit. He did all these things for himself, and the benefit to his family was his way of sleeping at night. I feel like Saul's situation here is quite similar.
What evidence have you seen of that?
He even paid the students he had working for him as his film crew during the guitar center commercials after he got stiffed.
Jimmy is not heartless, I think if he felt the settlement was fair no way he would have held out solely to line his pockets.
Not Jimmy right now anyway, maybe what Jimmy becomes.
If Jimmy was purely motivated by greed why leave Davis and Main where he had to try really hard to get fired. Yes, the job was about caging him and that wasn't his style, but it was more money than he'd ever see anywhere else.
Kim is biting off more than she can chew. I wonder if she drops the partnership and joins a larger firm now that she has 2 big clients? Perhaps, she goes back to HHM. I've always been skeptical of the idea that her story has to end in some sort of tragedy. Maybe she just leaves Jimmy behind (personally and professionally) or maybe they're still involved in some way when he has to leave town.
And Walt cuts her off "I did it for me. I liked it. I was good at it. It made me feel... alive."
It was so poignant because it was the first time he owned that every single justification he made to his family and to himself was bullshit. He did all these things for himself, and the benefit to his family was his way of sleeping at night. I feel like Saul's situation here is quite similar.
I don't think Saul is that similar at all at this point. He's done some shady shit but pretty tame on a criminal level. The Robin Hood of cons based on the body of work so far.
As far as the Sanpiper situation, HHM should be the center of the scrutiny. A Hamlin "yes man" persuaded Irene not to settle initially. During Hamlin's convo with Jimmy, it's obvious greed is a motivating factor in not settling PLUS making Jimmy wait. They're willing to screw over the actual plaintiffs by making Jimmy wait "a few years" the plaintiffs don't have for an extra buck.
"Ruining Irene's life" is hyperbolic. Lock if she settles all of the old ladies are friends again.
What's crazy is it's not out of the realm of possibility that Monday will be the last episode ever. The ratings have dropped a bit... AMC is clinging to the (rightfully) great reviews it's getting and hoping it generates some viewership. But even Gilligan and co. said that, while hopeful, they don't feel a 4th season is guaranteed.
HHM dragging it out was an act of greed by them, typical of lawyers and class action suits perhaps, but nonetheless not in the best interest of the plaintiffs.
So yes, by getting Irene to force a settlement (if that even happens) was the right thing.
The way he did it was shitty and having a law degree is irrelevant because his is suspended, but he earned the law degree, so "arming" him with a law degree is a weird choice of words.
As far as Irene was concerned, Jimmy is a legitimate businessman as opposed to some con man off the streets. That is the illusion his law degree permits.
What Jimmy did was completely self-serving, EVEN if it was the right decision (which is debatable), it was about himself, & the way he did was downright awful.
He could have tried some other method that would have had less fallout for Irene.
Link - ( New Window )
HHM would get a cut of the settlement -- which in the case of a legitimate class action suit means the difference in millions for the firm. Essentially all of the leg work is done (thanks to Jimmy), it's just a matter of haggling over the final figure. There's no incentive for HHM to settle unless they are financially strapped -- which may be the case now with the issue with Jimmy's brother and the firm. If Irene wants to settle Hamlin will probably just go with it at this point instead of trying to persuade her otherwise.
But before Kim even rushed out the door, I thought, "She's getting into a car crash." It just seemed very telegraphed to me.