NFT: NYK - draft/trade talk

perhaps the dream has a downside.

In comment 13501215 giantsfan44ab said:

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I think would be by trading KP or Willy, which I would not do. Maybe consider a top 8 pick for Willy but I like him and I have a hard time seeing another team who would value him as such.

Likely but you never know. Stan could get fired soon. That's a team that just wants to make the playoffs.

I'd look into Stanimal as a buy low. Not sure if he is available.

In comment 13501223 Deej said:

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In comment 13501215 giantsfan44ab said: Quote: I think would be by trading KP or Willy, which I would not do. Maybe consider a top 8 pick for Willy but I like him and I have a hard time seeing another team who would value him as such. Likely but you never know. Stan could get fired soon. That's a team that just wants to make the playoffs. I'd look into Stanimal as a buy low. Not sure if he is available.

Or Ellenson.

not buying Lee for 12. I think 12 lands you a better player than Lee and I think worst case they could send Stanimal AND 12 for a good veteran. Lee doesn't move the needle for the Pistons and I say that as someone who fully agrees Lee is worth a #1, just one in the 22-30 range.

expected to retire.

In comment 13501228 DanMetroMan said:

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not buying Lee for 12. I think 12 lands you a better player than Lee and I think worst case they could send Stanimal AND 12 for a good veteran. Lee doesn't move the needle for the Pistons and I say that as someone who fully agrees Lee is worth a #1, just one in the 22-30 range.

oh, I agree. but there are all sorts of deals out there that dont make 100% sense. Bargs.

In comment 13501232 DanMetroMan said:

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expected to retire.

He was a fun player to watch. He's who Willy reminded me of before he came over.

conducive to maintaining foot health.

In comment 13501236 Deej said:

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In comment 13501228 DanMetroMan said: Quote: not buying Lee for 12. I think 12 lands you a better player than Lee and I think worst case they could send Stanimal AND 12 for a good veteran. Lee doesn't move the needle for the Pistons and I say that as someone who fully agrees Lee is worth a #1, just one in the 22-30 range. oh, I agree. but there are all sorts of deals out there that dont make 100% sense. Bargs.

That's the thing. Everyone was shocked that the Knicks got a first for THJR in the late teens. Lee's contract also makes him a little more valuable given what guys got last year and will get this year.

before we get into value. KCP is a younger, better version of Lee. Why would they give up a lotto pick in a deep draft for a backup 33 year old?

went 6/11 from the field, 13 points 4 rebounds 3 assists 1 steal today

I sure hope I'm wrong but I would be shocked if the Pistons give up the 12th for Lee. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Pistons showed no interest in him as a free agent. Now they are giving up the 12th pick for him in a deep draft? I don't see it.

I keep going back and forth between DSJ and Monk, but I'm currently all in Monk. Which means he'll be gone or they pass on him.

In comment 13501274 Enzo said:

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Quote: Frank Isola‏Verified account @FisolaNYDN The Knicks have had a scout in Europe babysitting Frank Ntilikina. As of now, he's their man.

Man, everything he writes is for max douche effect

Frenchy would be playing for Kurt Rambis next year and throwing lobs to Greg Monroe. But we'll see - if my life depended on it, I'd guess Frenchy is our man.

say the least. Nothing about him screams star and we should be going with more risk to try and nab a star. I don't trust guards with underdeveloped handles, who struggles to create their own shot and lack plus athleticism.

The knicks have to take back an undesirable contract but not a brutally terrible one if they move lee for 12.

I think some would argue that Drummond or Jackson are their worst contracts, and both guys have positive value. Boban $7x2? I would take that without #12. Give it a go.
Link - ( New Window )

In comment 13501293 bceagle05 said:

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Frenchy would be playing for Kurt Rambis next year and throwing lobs to Greg Monroe. But we'll see - if my life depended on it, I'd guess Frenchy is our man.

Trying to process "lobs to Greg Monroe" in my head but its not computing.

I'll check back in the morning.

Signing Monroe as a free agent a couple years back was one of them.

In comment 13501419 bceagle05 said:

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Signing Monroe as a free agent a couple years back was one of them.

dont forget he then ripped the knicks constantly for. ot signing monroe because it made him look bad...

oh dont forget the isiah is running the knicks behind the scenes...

every time the knkcks work out someone who would be a reach the media claims the knicks eant them at 8...

first it was jackson, then mitcehell now its kennard

celtics still considering jackson at 1..

fultz worked out for lakers after he said he would only work out for celtics

Josh Jackson, Crowder, Bradley and Smart would make for some suffocating defense.

In comment 13501466 bceagle05 said:

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Josh Jackson, Crowder, Bradley and Smart would make for some suffocating defense.

They have brown. I think this is just Ainge doing Ainge things.

Will be a disappointment. Athlete not a skilled player.

why does Frank have any less upside than KP? Both are a similar age when they entered the league, good shooters/defenders without ability to create their own offense. Both plus defenders and great team players. What makes KP a star in the making and frank someone with a clear cap on his ceiling?

In comment 13501607 Jon in NYC said:

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why does Frank have any less upside than KP? Both are a similar age when they entered the league, good shooters/defenders without ability to create their own offense. Both plus defenders and great team players. What makes KP a star in the making and frank someone with a clear cap on his ceiling?

Um frank is an atrocious defender. There was a stretch where frank started for Charlotte when Zeller went down this past season and Charlotte got obliterated in the interior and on the glass. The two aren't comparable athletically.

Awful as a shooter in the NBA. I don't know why that part hasn't translated but he's been just flat out garbage beyond 10 feet in the NBA. Also a worse rebounder than KP.

KP:

10-16: 45%
16-23: 41%
3P: 35%

Frank:

10-16: 29%
16-23: 31%
3P: 33%

Rebounding :

KP: 13%

Frank: 10% (which is awful for a 4 let alone a 5)

I think he was talking about the French PG.

The answer I think is that KP is a better athlete for his position than Frank is. KP is 7'3. KP is/was a fantastic shooting prospect -- very fast release and good release point, mechanics, ability to shoot off movement at his size etc. Attitude, success in the 2nd best league...

I could go on, but I think the comparison of KP and Frank N. is a little silly. It permits no gradations of what they're good at.

Even those who like him say he's a sum of parts prospect. KP has a special skillset that has basically never been seen before at that size. To compare the two is farcical. If Frenchy were viewed to have similar upside he'd be in the mix top 3-5 and there is no indication that is the case. Scouts can be wrong but his "tools" are what they are physically outside of maturation. It's a silly comparison that seems like an attempt to sell yourself on Frencht

If you truly feel that way I have to assume your board includes Frenchy in the top 3 right? Because Jackson, Fox etc don't have KP upside. Ball and Fultz likely don't either but at least you can dream big on them being franchise players at the 1. The knock on KP was how raw (and thin- fair) supposedly was (despite doing work in the #2 league in the world). His physical tools were always evident/clear. Moves like a guard at 7'3 with a quick release, unafraid of contact (scouts say Frenchy has an aversion for contact and rarely drives to the hoop). I've accepted him as the pick but KP vs Frenchy upside wise isn't even close

his upside is with his defense, he is going to be a game changer on that end...

if he can tighten his handle and become a playmaker you got a chance at a superstar...

question is are you willing to take that risk

Frenchy's supposed best trait (defense) is based on the idea his wingspan will result in him being a plus defender. That being said his 7 foot wingspan (while fantastic) is only 2-3 inches more than Mitchell (a superior athlete) so it's not exactly clear why Frenchy is some sure thing lock down monster but Mitchell is not (for example). If anything I would sugggest the fact Frenchy isn't an amazing run jump quickness athlete his wingspan is partially overrated vs a guy with slightly lesser wingspan but a quicker/better athlere

how many top PG prospects with worries about their ability to create their own shot and average athleticism dramatically improve their handling and physical tools?

every day of the week over Frenchie. The former has elite D potential and tools for a guard, terrific run-jump ability, and has shown the FT% and 3 pt % to suggest he could become a good, if not great shooter in time.

In comment 13501637 nygiants16 said:

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his upside is with his defense, he is going to be a game changer on that end... if he can tighten his handle and become a playmaker you got a chance at a superstar... question is are you willing to take that risk

Cmon which superstar has that profile at pg? which pg in the NBA is a superstar based on his defense? Who is your projected best realistic case for Frenchy at pg ?

is the opposite of high-risk/reward; it's the fact that he can give you 3 & D right now despite having a ceiling (due to lack of plus athleticism and shot creation ability) compared to the other guard prospects.

In comment 13501650 DanMetroMan said:

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In comment 13501637 nygiants16 said: Quote: his upside is with his defense, he is going to be a game changer on that end... if he can tighten his handle and become a playmaker you got a chance at a superstar... question is are you willing to take that risk Cmon which superstar has that profile at pg? which pg in the NBA is a superstar based on his defense? Who is your projected best realistic case for Frenchy at pg ?

i said if his handle and playmamomg ability improves he will be a superstar, i didnt say if he was just 3 and d he would be a superstar...

he will be able to change games as a defender but he wont be a superstar if his handle and playmaking do not improve .

the people who dont like him dont think it will improve, the people that do think it can...

realistically i see him as an avery bradley type of player...

In comment 13501655 nygiants16 said:

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In comment 13501650 DanMetroMan said: Quote: In comment 13501637 nygiants16 said: Quote: his upside is with his defense, he is going to be a game changer on that end... if he can tighten his handle and become a playmaker you got a chance at a superstar... question is are you willing to take that risk Cmon which superstar has that profile at pg? which pg in the NBA is a superstar based on his defense? Who is your projected best realistic case for Frenchy at pg ? i said if his handle and playmamomg ability improves he will be a superstar, i didnt say if he was just 3 and d he would be a superstar... he will be able to change games as a defender but he wont be a superstar if his handle and playmaking do not improve . the people who dont like him dont think it will improve, the people that do think it can... realistically i see him as an avery bradley type of player...

That's fair, but I think unless his mid-range game becomes a thing and he considerably improves his ballhandling, we're looking at a guy who will not be able to make his own offense. And that's also linked to his playmaking; if you're not a good ball-handler and if you don't present the threat of scoring on your own, it's difficult to be a lead guard, creating for others.

I'd like Frenchie at 12 or 13, not at 8 and not with the options likely to be available.

quickness. That's really under rating the physical tools Bradley has.

I pose this question Why is a 6'5 KP upside pg who only needs to tighten up his handle and improve as a playmaker falling to 8?

how many PG's come into the league who have below average ball-handling skills and develop those enough to create their own shots against NBA caliber athletes? How many manage to do that without plus athleticism (though in Frenchie's case that issue is mitigated to some extent by his height)?

By contrast, I think you've got a better shot turning a guy with elite shooting and athleticism into a passable distributor and lead guard (in today's NBA)(Monk) or taming a hero-ball player and having him play within the team concept (DSJ) and improve his shooting from average to good.

In comment 13501644 Ash_3 said:

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how many top PG prospects with worries about their ability to create their own shot and average athleticism dramatically improve their handling and physical tools?

This is exactly why I worry. Deangelo russel has some of the best handles in the league and it can't save him as far as shot creation goes. You're talking about a guy who dominated a major conference as a PG who is being limited to off ball duties entering year 3 in the league.

Have him in the 10-12 range and 8 guys I clearly want more. I like Collins more too but rough fit

In comment 13501661 Ash_3 said:

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how many PG's come into the league who have below average ball-handling skills and develop those enough to create their own shots against NBA caliber athletes? How many manage to do that without plus athleticism (though in Frenchie's case that issue is mitigated to some extent by his height)? By contrast, I think you've got a better shot turning a guy with elite shooting and athleticism into a passable distributor and lead guard (in today's NBA)(Monk) or taming a hero-ball player and having him play within the team concept (DSJ) and improve his shooting from average to good.

Yup. If there were proven examples of guards who came in as below average ball handlers and transitioned to elite I'd be better. But I can't think of one. I can think of a plethora of mediocre shooters that have vastly improved in the NBA, on the other hand.

Than Bradley with frank.

In comment 13501660 DanMetroMan said:

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I pose this question Why is a 6'5 KP upside pg who only needs to tighten up his handle and improve as a playmaker falling to 8?

my guess? he hasnt had a chance to workout or meet with teams and trams higher are not going to take that risk...

why did giannis not get picked higher? why did kawhi not get pi ked higher?

kp sky rocketed once his workout took place and he started meeting with teams...

plus this a pretty deep draft, i dont take him over the top guys, i dont take him over monk or smith

In comment 13501674 giantsfan44ab said:

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Than Bradley with frank.

except shumpert was a jump out of the gym prospect who couldnt shoot