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NFT: Yankees topic: what would you give up for Gerrit Cole?

Milton : 6/15/2017 10:53 pm
And what would you accept for Gerrit Cole if you're running the Pirates?

Right now the Yankees are having issues at the infield corners, but I expect they will work themselves out by September, so I don't see the need to move any of the young prospects in order to improve on what the team already has. And the team's relief pitching will be first rate if Chapman returns healthy.

But the starting pitching is nothing to brag about. It's not bad, actually, it's just not dependable. The only one pitching like an Ace is Severino and his sample set is too limited to feel completely confident that his arrow is only pointing up. Tanaka, Pineda, and Sabathia all have games, even stretches, where they pitch like an Ace (or a solid #2), but then they go and put together a stretch of games where they look like they belong at the bottom of the rotation.

If the four of them could develop some consistency, it could be one of the best rotations in the league (if not the best), even if none of them are Clayton Kershaw. And Clayton Kershaw (or anyone like him) is not going to be available via trade, so it may be a situation where there is no potential for improvement other than from the farm (take a chance on Chance).

So as far as I can tell, the only starting pitcher who may or may not be available (and may or may not be a significant improvement) is Gerrit Cole. But it's not as if he is going to be a free agent next year or has a huge salary, so the Pirates aren't in "will take best offer" mode when it comes to their Ace. I think a team would have to blow them away for it to make sense. And the Yankees have the bargaining chips to blow them away, but is he really worth what it would take? Part of me feels like the main reason to get Cole is to keep him from the Astros, who will surely be working the phones to add a #3 or #4 pitcher to the two steller starters they have at the top of their rotation. I would hate to see the Yankees miss out on the World Series because they lost to Cole in the playoffs.

So what kind of package would you give up for Cole? And would that be worth it if you were the Pirates? For example, if you told me the Yankees could get Cole for Montgomery, Green, Frazier, and Mateo, well that's a no-brainer in my mind, but would that be enough for the Pirates? Not if I'm running them. Would you throw Sheffield or Rutherford into the mix to sweeten the deal? And would that be enough of a sweetener if you're Pittsburgh? Probably not.

The Pirates already have a top ten farm system when it comes to talent, so it's not as they are hurting. Is Torres untouchable? Is Adams untouchable? Who are your untouchables when it comes to landing Cole?
Absolutely NOTHING  
rich in DC : 6/15/2017 10:56 pm : link
No Cole, no way, no how. He is a mediocre SP with a rep based on draft position. He has ONE good season in 5- and trouble staying healthy.

Not even worth a phone call to check on the price.

RE: Absolutely NOTHING  
DennyInDenville : 6/15/2017 10:59 pm : link
In comment 13501496 rich in DC said:
Quote:
No Cole, no way, no how. He is a mediocre SP with a rep based on draft position. He has ONE good season in 5- and trouble staying healthy.

Not even worth a phone call to check on the price.

+1

Maybe I'd give up one of Wade or Fowler but will never happen.
I'd rather go after the reliever Rivero  
DennyInDenville : 6/15/2017 11:00 pm : link
Or perhaps a Johnny Cueto
RE: Absolutely NOTHING  
Milton : 6/15/2017 11:11 pm : link
In comment 13501496 rich in DC said:
Quote:
No Cole, no way, no how. He is a mediocre SP with a rep based on draft position. He has ONE good season in 5- and trouble staying healthy.
If he were to join the Yankees rotation, where would you place him? If you're answer is #4 or lower, than yeah, I agree with you. But right now it's hard for me to tell where he would fit into the Yankees rotation, given his own early season inconsistency (following had a good game after four bad starts in a row). Tanaka, Pineda, and Sabathia need to be more consistent and Severino needs to stay in the groove. The next four weeks worth of statistics will loom large as July 31 approaches.

But if not Cole, who is out there that might be available in trade (and who would crack the top four of the Yankees rotation)? He appears to be the only one, and it's not like the Pirates should be in "best offer" mode when it comes to him.
I don't like Cole  
bigbluehoya : 6/15/2017 11:15 pm : link
I prefer Darvish. Better pitcher, and should be cheaper than Come given he's a rental. Price will still be high.

I'd see what they think of a package around Austin, Mateo, Acevedo

Problem is - everyone and their mother knows that Torres, Frazier, Fowler, Adams are there and won't likely move off of them in the ask.
RE: I don't like Cole  
Milton : 6/15/2017 11:20 pm : link
In comment 13501504 bigbluehoya said:
Quote:
I prefer Darvish. Better pitcher, and should be cheaper than Come given he's a rental. Price will still be high.

I'd see what they think of a package around Austin, Mateo, Acevedo

Problem is - everyone and their mother knows that Torres, Frazier, Fowler, Adams are there and won't likely move off of them in the ask.
For the right pitcher I'd be willing to part with both Frazier and Fowler, but not Torres and Adams. It will be interesting to follow Adams over his next few minor league starts. If he is ready to make the move up, problem solved!
RE: RE: I don't like Cole  
DennyInDenville : 6/15/2017 11:28 pm : link
In comment 13501512 Milton said:
Quote:
In comment 13501504 bigbluehoya said:


Quote:


I prefer Darvish. Better pitcher, and should be cheaper than Come given he's a rental. Price will still be high.

I'd see what they think of a package around Austin, Mateo, Acevedo

Problem is - everyone and their mother knows that Torres, Frazier, Fowler, Adams are there and won't likely move off of them in the ask.

For the right pitcher I'd be willing to part with both Frazier and Fowler, but not Torres and Adams. It will be interesting to follow Adams over his next few minor league starts. If he is ready to make the move up, problem solved!

I talked to Frazier.

No way we should trade him.. Yet.

He's such a kid still it's crazy how much he's a kid lol. He just needs to mature a bit might take 1-2 years. (Mentally)
Problem is frazier seems ready for the callup now  
DennyInDenville : 6/15/2017 11:30 pm : link
I would not be shocked at all to see Cashman trade him just for these concerns in NY

He's a GREAT KID, GREAT. Just a kid still imo. He could use a dope ass mentor. I'm sure Reggie or Arod will visit him soon.
RE: Problem is frazier seems ready for the callup now  
Milton : 6/15/2017 11:40 pm : link
In comment 13501517 DennyInDenville said:
Quote:
I would not be shocked at all to see Cashman trade him just for these concerns in NY

He's a GREAT KID, GREAT. Just a kid still imo. He could use a dope ass mentor. I'm sure Reggie or Arod will visit him soon.
Three of the Yankees top prospects are outfielders (Frazier, Fowler, Rutherford), so it makes sense to view one or two of them as expendable bargaining chips with Hicks and Judge not going anywhere anytime soon.
RE: RE: Problem is frazier seems ready for the callup now  
DennyInDenville : 6/15/2017 11:50 pm : link
In comment 13501519 Milton said:
Quote:
In comment 13501517 DennyInDenville said:


Quote:


I would not be shocked at all to see Cashman trade him just for these concerns in NY

He's a GREAT KID, GREAT. Just a kid still imo. He could use a dope ass mentor. I'm sure Reggie or Arod will visit him soon.

Three of the Yankees top prospects are outfielders (Frazier, Fowler, Rutherford), so it makes sense to view one or two of them as expendable bargaining chips with Hicks and Judge not going anywhere anytime soon.

Agreed.

Out of those 3 I like Frazier best. Some like Blake for his lefty bat. Fowler has value because he can play CF I believe.

I keep Frazier out of those 3
I'd rather add Sonny Gray  
River : 6/16/2017 12:24 am : link
If we are trading some of the kids.
I'd take either  
superspynyg : 6/16/2017 7:56 am : link
Cole or Quintana, or Gray

I would give up
A combo of
Rutherford or Fraiser
And young pitcher
You want to trade away the farm  
Nomad Crow on the Madison : 6/16/2017 8:40 am : link
for an average starter? We already have a bundle of average starters. Let's calm down and see what happens over the next month. I am willing to ride out this season, let the minor league kids develop. We may have the answer to our pitching issues in our own system. Patience. If you don't have it, try meditation.
Fowler vs. Frazier....  
Tesla : 6/16/2017 9:07 am : link
As an aside, it's interesting how Fowler and Frazier are ranked and viewed as prospects. Frazier is a consensus top 30 guy....and I don't believe Fowler even cracks the top 100. Yet Fowler is 5 months younger than Frazier, has outhit him this season at SWB, and plays far better defense at a premium defensive position.

I actually really like Frazier, but I think Fowler may be criminally underrated as a prospect.
RE: You want to trade away the farm  
Milton : 6/16/2017 9:51 am : link
In comment 13501659 Nomad Crow on the Madison said:
Quote:
for an average starter?
Nobody is saying trade away the farm, but there is some quality fat that they can afford to trim. You distinguish the untouchables from the expendables and then work the phones with that in mind. Rutherford is a couple of years away but there is no reason to hang onto both Frazier and Fowler. Keep the one you prefer and trade the other. Rule 5 is going to force some hard decisions upon them anyway.
Wasn't he a Yankees draft pick  
JonC : 6/16/2017 9:55 am : link
who blew off signing? Would like to understand why, perhaps he's one who doesn't want to be here from the beginning.
RE: Wasn't he a Yankees draft pick  
Milton : 6/16/2017 10:08 am : link
In comment 13501727 JonC said:
Quote:
who blew off signing? Would like to understand why, perhaps he's one who doesn't want to be here from the beginning.
He was coming out of high school. It's always a risk with a star high school player. He was the 28th pick for the Yankees, went to college instead, and three years later emerged as the number one pick overall. So it would seem it was simply a wise decision on his part and nothing personal.
Thanks, Milton  
JonC : 6/16/2017 10:11 am : link
.
I have no trouble with moving some prospects  
rich in DC : 6/16/2017 10:12 am : link
It is absolutely true that they will have a 40 man crunch this winter and that there are positions where the numbers are holding up other prospects.

With that said, trades for the sake of trades, or trades without a thought to the longer term impact are not good.

Cole, Gray, Quintana and other vet SP listed in this thread are not good ideas because you are essentially burning assets for a player who does not represent a gain in value. None of those 3 are top-of-the-rotation arms on a contending team. In fact, I would suggest that on the Yanks, none of them are better than a #3 SP.

The larger point is this- if you are talking about trading top 25 prospects, you go big or you go home. You don't offer the best players in your system for someone else's unwanted players.
Nada  
Phil in LA : 6/16/2017 10:20 am : link
.
.  
Kyle in NY : 6/16/2017 10:23 am : link
Cole's numbers are trending in the wrong direction.

Buyer beware
I don't there's a starter  
Phil in LA : 6/16/2017 10:34 am : link
out there who is both available (reportedly) and worth dealing for.
RE: I don't there's a starter  
Milton : 6/16/2017 11:01 am : link
In comment 13501768 Phil in LA said:
Quote:
out there who is both available (reportedly) and worth dealing for.
That seems to be the quandary. We'll see what the next 30 games of data brings. I suggested Cole because of all the starting pitchers with trade rumors attached, he had the best shot at fitting the profile. But he's been inconsistent, much like everyone in the Yankees rotation but Severino. He pitched well in his last start, so if he gets on a roll he could become a contender. But then again I don't see why Pittsburgh would want to deal him under those circumstances so it's a catch-22.

Maybe Yonder Alonzo will become their target if Bird can't break out of the funk he's been in.
they need to move somebody....  
Kevin(formerly Tiki4Six) : 6/16/2017 11:31 am : link
got some Rule 5 guys coming up and the last 3 games showed the Yankees Weakness which is Bullpen depth.

Getting Chapman back will solve some of this, but they still need a Loogy and another dependable arm in the pen.

Thing is we've got  
Phil in LA : 6/16/2017 11:36 am : link
a bunch of guys coming fast. Adams, Acevedo, German, Itzell... We can probably produce our own solutions for the rotation.
My offer is this.....  
Greg from LI : 6/16/2017 11:39 am : link


....nothing.
Phil..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/16/2017 11:46 am : link
is right on the money:

Quote:
Thing is we've got
Phil in LA : 11:36 am : link : reply
a bunch of guys coming fast. Adams, Acevedo, German, Itzell... We can probably produce our own solutions for the rotation.
a package the Pirates would never take  
RasputinPrime : 6/16/2017 11:51 am : link
because i'm not keen on making a play for him.
It would have to be a "buy low" package for me  
Heisenberg : 6/16/2017 11:57 am : link
and that would be something the Pirates wouldn't take.
RE: Wasn't he a Yankees draft pick  
Tesla : 6/16/2017 12:29 pm : link
In comment 13501727 JonC said:
Quote:
who blew off signing? Would like to understand why, perhaps he's one who doesn't want to be here from the beginning.


He grew up a Yankee fan, so it wasn't any animosity towards playing for the Yankees. He came from a wealthy family and wanted to go to college, so he refused to listen to offers to sign when drafted by the Yankees.
not a Yanks fan  
Rory : 6/16/2017 12:37 pm : link
but Ill play along.

If I'm the Yankees FO I take a hard look at what the Giants are gonna do with Cueto

Also Danny Duffy would be another pitcher to consider if the Royals become sellers at the deadline, along with Jason Vargas

Chris Archer/Alex Cobb could be interesting as well.

RE: not a Yanks fan  
rich in DC : 6/16/2017 1:56 pm : link
In comment 13501929 Rory said:
Quote:
but Ill play along.

If I'm the Yankees FO I take a hard look at what the Giants are gonna do with Cueto

Also Danny Duffy would be another pitcher to consider if the Royals become sellers at the deadline, along with Jason Vargas

Chris Archer/Alex Cobb could be interesting as well.


You are aware that Duffy is going to miss at least 2 months with an oblique injury, right?

The Rays are NOT going to trade their best SP to the Yanks- they can't afford that PR hit.

No to Cueto- he has an opt out this winter- but if he doesn't opt out, he is due $21M per for the next 4 years. He is in decline. Pass.

People need to understand that the plan is NOT to add big name vets, but to build a sustainable and long term contender. That means not loading the team down with big unmoveable contracts when a TON of young players are on the way.
RE: they need to move somebody....  
rich in DC : 6/16/2017 1:57 pm : link
In comment 13501852 Kevin(formerly Tiki4Six) said:
Quote:
got some Rule 5 guys coming up and the last 3 games showed the Yankees Weakness which is Bullpen depth.

Getting Chapman back will solve some of this, but they still need a Loogy and another dependable arm in the pen.


The Yanks should put German in the pen and go from there. That is a BIG power arm who can go multiple innings (has been a SP this season).
RE: RE: Wasn't he a Yankees draft pick  
Greg from LI : 6/16/2017 2:09 pm : link
In comment 13501915 Tesla said:
Quote:
He grew up a Yankee fan, so it wasn't any animosity towards playing for the Yankees. He came from a wealthy family and wanted to go to college, so he refused to listen to offers to sign when drafted by the Yankees.


Yeah, except that was a reversal from what he and his dad told Cashman before the draft which was that, while he intended to keep his commitment to UCLA, he would listen to their offer and negotiate. And then, after the draft, they wouldn't even return Cashman's phone calls.

Had they not told the Yankees prior to the draft that they were willing to at least negotiate, the Yankees wouldn't have wasted a pick on him.
Adding a big name vet  
bigbluehoya : 6/16/2017 2:11 pm : link
And building a sustainable, long-term contender are not mutually exclusive. I think we all agree that wiping out the farm with a series of expensive trades would be bad.

It's about picking your spots and pulling the trigger on the right guys if you decide to do it. "Big name vet" isn't a known commodity. Like all things, it comes down to player evaluation.

For instance, Darvish is a guy I'd love to see them pay up for either in the offseason or at the deadline if there's a true belief in this season. I think he's the goods and he's proving that he's pretty much 100% recovered from TJS with as nasty stuff as ever.

Cole is a guy I'd happily slot in this rotation, but I'm a definite "pass" at what it would cost. Gray is interesting, but probably also significantly more expensive than I'd pay for a guy who still needs to find the consistency.
If you are going to try and trade the system depth  
rich in DC : 6/16/2017 2:15 pm : link
Think more along the lines of young players with lots of team control- or even the more rare prospect for prospect deals.

SP is not likely to be a target in-season. The bullpen doesn't make sense either. The greater needs are at 1B and 3B.

The Yanks DO have Bird and could use Andujar and Torres at 3B in the future. However, the Yanks could look at longer term upgrades.

Suppose at the trade deadline- even though he will not be back until August- the Yanks asked the Braves what it would take to pry Freddie Freeman away. The cost would likely be immense- he is the Braves best player.

However, the Yanks likely have the prospect depth to make such a deal. Trade probably starts with Frazier, Bird and goes from there.

Further, Freeman is signed through 2021- albeit at about $21.4M per. He is a high OBP guy who hits better away from Atlanta- where he was already a good hitter. He's also turning 28 in September.

Freeman would give the Yanks a middle of the order bat who can do damage either between Sanchez and Judge- or, with his high OBP, could hit 3rd followed by Judge and Sanchez.

The Yanks will likely need a vet leader, and Freeman has experience being that guy, while still being young enough to be in his prime.

I am a Bird fan, but he has trouble staying healthy, and quite simply, Freeman is a better bet over the next 3-4 years.

It isn't a likely trade, or the Braves might not be willing to deal him at all. However, if the Yanks are going hunting for improvements, go for BIG game, not roadkill.
if they trade top prospects  
Dankbeerman : 6/16/2017 6:48 pm : link
they would be looking for longer term control. If the rotation needs help this year imagine it minus the 3 fa guys next year
Don't trade any of the  
bluepepper : 6/16/2017 7:50 pm : link
young ones. Certainly not Frazier or Rutherford. One of the keys to rebuilding is understanding that a certain percent of your prospects are going to disappoint. Don't try to identify the keepers vs the flops too soon. Even Judge or Sanchez are not sure things yet. Wouldn't be the first time guys make an early splash and fizzle. If the Yankees are patient and bring as many of the young ones along as possible they will almost certainly have a nucleus to build around for years to come.
Andujar  
River : 6/16/2017 7:52 pm : link
hit a line drive out today with an Exit Velo of 117.
really got some guys who hit the cover off the ball.
RE: if they trade top prospects  
Milton : 6/16/2017 7:54 pm : link
In comment 13502377 Dankbeerman said:
Quote:
they would be looking for longer term control. If the rotation needs help this year imagine it minus the 3 fa guys next year
This is why Gerrit Cole fits the profile of an ideal target if the scouts sign off on him. He is 26 years old with two years of arbitration remaining before he hits free agency (I think). It's also a good reason for the Pirates to hold on to him. You can bet there will be a lot of eyes on him during his next few starts.
Torres 1-1 tonight  
DennyInDenville : 6/16/2017 7:55 pm : link
Average upto .289

He's been playing a lot of SS
A quasi-asshat said today on reddit  
bceagle05 : 6/16/2017 8:00 pm : link
that the Yankees plan is to give Torres two months at AAA, which puts him on track for the Bronx by the end of July.
Here's what a Cubs blogger had to say about Cole...  
Milton : 6/16/2017 8:12 pm : link
Quote:
Cole’s MLB trajectory has been nothing short of fascinating. After pitching in 255.1 innings in his first two years in the bigs (2013 and 2014), Cole made a massive leap in 2015, posting a 2.60 ERA in 208.0 innings pitched. The innings jump seemed to impact Cole last season, however, as he battled durability issues and regressed to a 3.88 ERA. And in 83.1 innings this season, Cole sits at a 4.54 clip. However, there may be more to Cole’s performance than meets the eye.

Cole has grown disgruntled with the Pirates organization after a contract dispute before the beginning of the 2016 season. Because Cole had less than three years of MLB service, the Pirates held autonomy over his salary as a non-arbitration eligible player. According to Cole, the Pirates threatened to lower his salary to the league’s base minimum of $507,500 if he didn’t agree to their proposed salary of $541,000. Cole signed a one-year, $3.75 million deal before the beginning of this season, but he won’t be eligible for unrestricted free agency until 2020.

This is a perfect opportunity for the Cubs. The Pirates’ championship aspirations all but died in 2015, and they’re looking for an outlet to rebuild (especially after Starling Marte‘s suspension). Cole is just 26, and having control over him for the next two and a half years would be a luxury the Cubs shouldn’t take lightly, especially since the average age of the Cubs’ top four starters (Lester, Arrieta, Hendricks, and Lackey) is 32.25.

Cole’s stuff is impossible to ignore. With a fastball that reaches the upper 90s and a hard, biting slider, he can still be an elite pitcher in the MLB. If the Cubs are looking to make a marquee move that could position their starting position for the future, this would be the move to make.
Torres 2-2 tonight with a double now. Average up to .299 now  
DennyInDenville : 6/16/2017 8:17 pm : link
.
Why is it  
BigBlueShock : 6/16/2017 8:22 pm : link
When it comes to the AL East, we always hear "they wouldn't trade so and so within the division" but we never get that kind of mindset when it comes to every other division? The Pirates would trade Cole to the Cubs if they offer the best deal, but no way in hell the Rays would trade Archer to the Yankees?

Oh, and Cole is insanely overrated. He's been terribly inconsistent and the buyer had better beware. The Pirates are notorious for turning mediocre SPs into gold, yet they can't get Cole straightened out?
RE: Why is it  
Milton : 6/16/2017 9:15 pm : link
In comment 13502422 BigBlueShock said:
Quote:
When it comes to the AL East, we always hear "they wouldn't trade so and so within the division" but we never get that kind of mindset when it comes to every other division? The Pirates would trade Cole to the Cubs if they offer the best deal, but no way in hell the Rays would trade Archer to the Yankees?

In fairness, the blogger did go on to say...
Quote:
Of course, it would likely come at a hefty cost. Especially given that the Cubs and Pirates both play in the NL Central, the Bucs’ asking price may be that much larger. At the very least, the Cubs would have to give up either Kyle Schwarber or Javier Baez, with the likely inclusion of either Albert Almora or Jeimer Candelario. However, Theo Epstein and Jed Hoyer have shown that they aren’t afraid to dangle players (Baez has been in talks before, and Gleyber Torres was the Cubs’ no. 1 prospect before being shipped off to the Yankees in the Aroldis Chapman deal).


As for my own opinion of Cole, I don't have one. I'll leave it to the experts to project his future as he enters his prime years. It's just that out of all the starting pitchers around the league that have been the subject of trade rumors/speculation, he looks to be the only one with the potential to crack the top of the Yankees rotation. I emphasize the word "potential" because all I have to go on is his stats, which may be mixed, but do include one very stellar season and he is still very young. He has been hot and cold this year, so the next few starts will be key to his evaluation and ultimate market price (if he is on the market).

Bottomline is that if there is a starting pitcher worthy of a bidding war, the Yankees shouldn't let him go to the Astros without a fight. The Yankees have the chips to be both aggressive and prudent at the same time. When you're in that position, it's nice to be able to take advantage of it, but it's not a free pass to be reckless.
RE: If you are going to try and trade the system depth  
WillVAB : 6/17/2017 7:21 pm : link
In comment 13502093 rich in DC said:
Quote:
Think more along the lines of young players with lots of team control- or even the more rare prospect for prospect deals.

SP is not likely to be a target in-season. The bullpen doesn't make sense either. The greater needs are at 1B and 3B.

The Yanks DO have Bird and could use Andujar and Torres at 3B in the future. However, the Yanks could look at longer term upgrades.

Suppose at the trade deadline- even though he will not be back until August- the Yanks asked the Braves what it would take to pry Freddie Freeman away. The cost would likely be immense- he is the Braves best player.

However, the Yanks likely have the prospect depth to make such a deal. Trade probably starts with Frazier, Bird and goes from there.

Further, Freeman is signed through 2021- albeit at about $21.4M per. He is a high OBP guy who hits better away from Atlanta- where he was already a good hitter. He's also turning 28 in September.

Freeman would give the Yanks a middle of the order bat who can do damage either between Sanchez and Judge- or, with his high OBP, could hit 3rd followed by Judge and Sanchez.

The Yanks will likely need a vet leader, and Freeman has experience being that guy, while still being young enough to be in his prime.

I am a Bird fan, but he has trouble staying healthy, and quite simply, Freeman is a better bet over the next 3-4 years.

It isn't a likely trade, or the Braves might not be willing to deal him at all. However, if the Yanks are going hunting for improvements, go for BIG game, not roadkill.


Interesting take. What about Yonder Alonso and/or one of the arms in Phily?
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